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Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette

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  • janet fauble
    Hi Patricia,   Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette s life.  I do not
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 30, 2008
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      Hi Patricia,
       
      Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life.  I do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I liked that allusion.
       
      my kindest regards, Jan

      --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
      From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
      Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette
      To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM

      Hi Jan,

      I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
      to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
      linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
      because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
      in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
      called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
      spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
      wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
      cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
      if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
      have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
      he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
      whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
      besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
      had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
      reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
      eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
      by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
      be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
      you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
      and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
      good.

      From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
      articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
      various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
      not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
      "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
      with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
      that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
      not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
      I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
      the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
      wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
      find it on the net:)

      kindest regards,
      Patricia

      ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
      <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from the
      NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
      immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so very
      special.  My best to  you, Jan
      >
      > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
      <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
      >
      > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
      <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
      > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
      > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > This email message is a notification to let you know that
      > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Images_of_Marie_
      Antoinette
      > group.
      >
      > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
      > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
      > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with Marie-
      Antoinette
      >
      > You can access this file at the URL:
      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
      files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-Antoinet
      te.pdf
      >
      > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
      > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/
      index.htmlfiles
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
      >


    • alecker23
      ... Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig. Regards ... you now about the role of Axel
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
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        --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
        <janetcfauble@...> wrote:
        >Hi Patricia and Jan,

        Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
        psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.

        Regards
        > Hi Patricia,
        >  
        > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with
        you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life.  I
        do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
        himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read
        of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I liked
        that allusion.
        >  
        > my kindest regards, Jan
        >
        > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
        > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-
        Antoinette
        > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Jan,
        >
        > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
        > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
        > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
        > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
        > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
        > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
        > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
        > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
        > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
        > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
        > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
        > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
        > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
        > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
        > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
        > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
        > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
        > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
        > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
        > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
        > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
        > good.
        >
        > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
        > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
        > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
        > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
        > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
        > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
        > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
        > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
        > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
        > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
        > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
        > find it on the net:)
        >
        > kindest regards,
        > Patricia
        >
        > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
        > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from
        the
        > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
        > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so
        very
        > special.  My best to  you, Jan
        > >
        > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
        com
        > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
        > >
        > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
        > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
        > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
        > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
        > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
        Images_of_Marie_
        > Antoinette
        > > group.
        > >
        > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
        > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
        > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with Marie-
        > Antoinette
        > >
        > > You can access this file at the URL:
        > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
        > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
        Antoinet
        > te.pdf
        > >
        > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
        > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/
        > index.htmlfiles
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
        > >
        >
      • madame_antoine
        Bonjour, Alecker Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig s, Marie Antoinette:The Portrait of an Average Woman ? I actually have this book, which was given to me by a
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
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          Bonjour, Alecker

          Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait of
          an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to me
          by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not read
          it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
          much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
          do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
          presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to learn
          french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
          french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
          such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide in
          Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book, Alecker.

          kind regards,
          Patricia

          --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "alecker23"
          <alecker23@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
          > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
          > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
          >
          > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
          > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
          >
          > Regards
          > > Hi Patricia,
          > >  
          > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with
          > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life. 
          I
          > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
          > himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read
          > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
          liked
          > that allusion.
          > >  
          > > my kindest regards, Jan
          > >
          > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@>
          > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
          Marie-
          > Antoinette
          > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Jan,
          > >
          > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
          > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
          > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
          > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
          > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
          > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
          > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
          > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
          > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
          > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
          > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
          > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
          > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
          > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
          > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
          > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
          > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
          > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
          > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
          > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
          > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
          > > good.
          > >
          > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
          > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
          > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
          > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
          > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
          > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
          > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
          > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
          > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
          > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
          > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
          > > find it on the net:)
          > >
          > > kindest regards,
          > > Patricia
          > >
          > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
          > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from
          > the
          > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
          > > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so
          > very
          > > special.  My best to  you, Jan
          > > >
          > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
          > com
          > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
          > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
          > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
          > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
          > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hello,
          > > >
          > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
          > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
          > Images_of_Marie_
          > > Antoinette
          > > > group.
          > > >
          > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
          > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
          > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
          Marie-
          > > Antoinette
          > > >
          > > > You can access this file at the URL:
          > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
          > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
          > Antoinet
          > > te.pdf
          > > >
          > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
          > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
          members/web/
          > > index.htmlfiles
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > >
          > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jimmy
          I do have it in translation. Jimmy ... From: madame_antoine To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I do have it in translation. Jimmy

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
            To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 9:35:57 PM
            Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette

            Bonjour, Alecker

            Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait of
            an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to me
            by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not read
            it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
            much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
            do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
            presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to learn
            french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
            french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
            such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide in
            Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book, Alecker.

            kind regards,
            Patricia

            --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "alecker23"
            <alecker23@. ..> wrote:

            >
            > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
            > <janetcfauble@ > wrote:
            > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
            >
            > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
            > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
            >
            > Regards
            > > Hi Patricia,
            > >  
            > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with
            > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life. 
            I
            > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
            > himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read
            > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
            liked
            > that allusion.
            > >  
            > > my kindest regards, Jan
            > >
            > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ > wrote:
            > >
            > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ >
            > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
            Marie-
            > Antoinette
            > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Jan,
            > >
            > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
            > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
            > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
            > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
            > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
            > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
            > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
            > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
            > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
            > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
            > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
            > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
            > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
            > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
            > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
            > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
            > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
            > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
            > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
            > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
            > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
            > > good.
            > >
            > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
            > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
            > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
            > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
            > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
            > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
            > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
            > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
            > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
            > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
            > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
            > > find it on the net:)
            > >
            > > kindest regards,
            > > Patricia
            > >
            > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
            > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from
            > the
            > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
            > > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so
            > very
            > > special.  My best to  you, Jan
            > > >
            > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
            > com
            > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
            > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
            > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
            > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
            > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > >
            > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
            > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
            > Images_of_Marie_
            > > Antoinette
            > > > group.
            > > >
            > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
            > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
            > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
            Marie-
            > > Antoinette
            > > >
            > > > You can access this file at the URL:
            > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
            > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
            > Antoinet
            > > te.pdf
            > > >
            > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
            > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
            members/web/
            > > index.htmlfiles
            > > >
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
            > > >
            > >
            >

          • doritmi
            Dear Alecker, I also read Zweig s biography - in fact, it started my interest in Marie Antoinette (though not in the French revolution) - I loved it for years
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Alecker,
              I also read Zweig's biography - in fact, it started my interest in Marie Antoinette (though
              not in the French revolution) - I loved it for years and read it many times. However, while
              it's still a wonderful book, I now think that as a history it is very flawed in several ways:
              a) it makes very selective use of the materials. Especially the austrian materials, where he
              only quotes parts - for example, he quotes from Joseph's letters on the relationship
              between Marie Antoinette and Louis but then ignores the part where Joseph makes it clear
              Louis XVI is not impotent; he also assumes the Austrian material is completely unbiased
              and treats it as fact, where there are good reasons to believe it's biased; on the other
              hand, he completely discounts Campan's memoires, except in relation to the diamond
              necklace, even though she had very good access.
              b) lack of context. In many ways, his lack of familiarity with French history and politics
              leads him to make mistakes. For example, he assumes that the encounter in Campaign
              was spontaneous and that MA's natural behavior captured Louis XV; in fact, Bertierre
              demonstrates it was carefully orchestrated based on previous "delivery" of princesses. He
              assumes MA controlled the appointment of ministers; until 1787, that's simply not true,
              though she had influence in the appointment of some, and anyone looking at the papers
              of the reign would know that. He completely misses the real influence of the Austrian
              connection - the pressure Joseph put on MA to intervene and get French support to his
              expansionists ideas - which did not help her relationships with Louis XVI. His description
              of the Polignacs misses the fact that it was very common at the time for those on the rise
              to bring their families along - Choisel and all the great ministers did that. And his concern
              about the term "poor man" ignores that, as Delorme pointed out, in the contemporary
              dictionaries it was a term of affection, like "dear chap", and that Marie Antoinette's
              response to her mother's letter (documented by Mercy) was to be upset and offended at
              this severe reprimand for a careless phrase - and with some good cause.
              c) freudian interpretation. He assumes everything has to do with sex. it doesn't. in 18th
              century French, a lot has to do with class, pride, status, religion, and of course politics -
              and money. He likes the idea of Louis XVI as a mindless impotent slave for MA. problem:
              all the documents show him otherwise; he was very firm in keeping her out of politics for
              a long time. He likes the idea of MA as an oversexed, nervous woman - but her energy did
              not "calm down" once her marriage was consummated, she continued partying at least till
              the birth of the first dauphin, probably later. He likes Fersen as the night in shining armor
              - his problem is his night was sleeping around (and documenting it carefully in his diary)
              right and left, and had at least three serious mistresses in his years as the "admirer" of the
              queen - and was politically loyal to both her and Louis XVI, and what do we take from that?

              so sorry - great book, bad history.

              --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "alecker23" <alecker23@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
              > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
              > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
              >
              > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
              > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
              >
              > Regards
              > > Hi Patricia,
              > >  
              > >
            • doritmi
              The best biographies of him are in French. Tell me if you want recommendations. I don t even know if his diary was translated into English, but those
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                The best biographies of him are in French. Tell me if you want recommendations. I don't
                even know if his diary was translated into English, but those biographies that quote it
                certainly make him sound like a rake - even the entry for the first time he met MA was
                more about an unsuccessful flirt with another lady he hoped to meet up with later in the
                evening. And I don't think he was a terrible person - but he was no knight in shining
                armor. He looked to his own benefit; he left MA to find glory in the new world, and when
                he came back, he had her buy him a regiment, since his dad wouldn't. He was very good
                at ingratiating himself with royalty - remember, he spent two years before settling in
                France traveling with Gustav III, and was on very good terms with him. He was an avid
                royalist till his death. His real service to Marie Antoinette was as a royalist, not as a lover.
                He helped her during the revolution selflessly - as did many other royalists who risked
                their life for her. (and he was not the most talented among her helpers, either). I think he
                deserves respect for acting selflessly and heroically for his ideas. But that's about it.

                As for love, note that very few contemporaries mention him as MA's lover. and they would
                if they could.

                --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Jan,
                >
                > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
                > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                > good.
                >
                > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
                > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
                > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
                > find it on the net:)
                >
                > kindest regards,
                > Patricia
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ages_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
                > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from the
                > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
                > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so very
                > special.  My best to  you, Jan
                > >
                > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                > <Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                > >
                > > From: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                > <Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_Antoinette
                > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hello,
                > >
                > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Images_of_Marie_
                > Antoinette
                > > group.
                > >
                > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
                > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with Marie-
                > Antoinette
                > >
                > > You can access this file at the URL:
                > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
                > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-Antoinet
                > te.pdf
                > >
                > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/
                > index.htmlfiles
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > >
                > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                > >
                >
              • doritmi
                Patricia, That s one book that s certainly available in English. I have a copy both in Hebrew and in English. It s certainly worth reading, it s a wonderful
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Patricia,
                  That's one book that's certainly available in English. I have a copy both in Hebrew and in
                  English. It's certainly worth reading, it's a wonderful story, but remember my caveats in
                  the previous message to Allecker.

                  --- In Images_of_Mari
                  e_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine" <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bonjour, Alecker
                  >
                  > Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait of
                  > an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to me
                  > by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not read
                  > it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
                  > much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
                  > do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
                  > presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to learn
                  > french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
                  > french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
                  > such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide in
                  > Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book, Alecker.
                  >
                  > kind regards,
                  > Patricia
                  >
                  > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "alecker23"
                  > <alecker23@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
                  > > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
                  > > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
                  > >
                  > > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
                  > > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > > Hi Patricia,
                  > > >  
                  > > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with
                  > > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life. 
                  > I
                  > > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
                  > > himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read
                  > > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
                  > liked
                  > > that allusion.
                  > > >  
                  > > > my kindest regards, Jan
                  > > >
                  > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@>
                  > > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
                  > Marie-
                  > > Antoinette
                  > > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Jan,
                  > > >
                  > > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                  > > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                  > > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                  > > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                  > > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                  > > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                  > > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                  > > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                  > > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                  > > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                  > > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                  > > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                  > > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                  > > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                  > > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                  > > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                  > > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                  > > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                  > > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                  > > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
                  > > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                  > > > good.
                  > > >
                  > > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                  > > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                  > > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                  > > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                  > > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                  > > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                  > > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                  > > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
                  > > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                  > > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
                  > > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
                  > > > find it on the net:)
                  > > >
                  > > > kindest regards,
                  > > > Patricia
                  > > >
                  > > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                  > > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from
                  > > the
                  > > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
                  > > > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so
                  > > very
                  > > > special.  My best to  you, Jan
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
                  > > com
                  > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
                  > > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
                  > > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                  > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                  > > Images_of_Marie_
                  > > > Antoinette
                  > > > > group.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
                  > > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                  > > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
                  > Marie-
                  > > > Antoinette
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
                  > > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
                  > > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
                  > > Antoinet
                  > > > te.pdf
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                  > > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
                  > members/web/
                  > > > index.htmlfiles
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Regards,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • madame_antoine
                  Hi Doritmi:) Thank you for the information about Zweig s book being available in english. I will try to find it and read it. It sounds like it might be
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 4, 2008
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                    Hi Doritmi:)

                    Thank you for the information about Zweig's book being
                    available in english. I will try to find it and read it.
                    It sounds like it might be enjoyable to read. As I think
                    I've said before in this forum...all of these books even
                    though based on some history...are still the author's take
                    on that history and with their opinions as well, so that
                    we really have to figure out on our own..what is truth and
                    what isn't. Some things that we read are historical fact,
                    but much is the author's opinion and conjecture.

                    Regarding Count Fersen's character, I have never said he
                    was a saint. Very few in history, if any...can claim that
                    title, however...I think many "paint" Fersen in such an
                    undesirable light because of their own belief system of
                    what is right and what is wrong. From the books that I have read...he
                    clearly had more than a friendly affection for Queen Marie Antoinette
                    and chose to serve both she and the King in any capacity which he
                    could. Was he an opportunist who used his friendship to gain favor
                    from the queen, I truly don't think so. It is my own personal
                    belief that he did, in fact love the Queen. I would not judge
                    nor call him a "rake" because of the women in his life. I think
                    many would like to hear the romantic tale that his love for
                    the queen was so great that he denied himself any female
                    companionship and sacrificed himself on the "altar" of unrequited
                    love. That is just not realistic nor reasonable and there is
                    no absolute proof anywhere that Axel's feelings for Antoinette
                    weren't genuine. His relationships with other women are not
                    what I would consider proof nor would I expect that he would live
                    the life of a monk.

                    kind regards,
                    Patricia

                    --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "doritmi"
                    <drub@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Patricia,
                    > That's one book that's certainly available in English. I have a
                    copy both in Hebrew and in
                    > English. It's certainly worth reading, it's a wonderful story, but
                    remember my caveats in
                    > the previous message to Allecker.
                    >
                    > --- In Images_of_Mari
                    > e_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine" <MadameAntoine@>
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Bonjour, Alecker
                    > >
                    > > Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait
                    of
                    > > an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to
                    me
                    > > by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not
                    read
                    > > it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
                    > > much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
                    > > do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
                    > > presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to
                    learn
                    > > french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
                    > > french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
                    > > such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide
                    in
                    > > Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book,
                    Alecker.
                    > >
                    > > kind regards,
                    > > Patricia
                    > >
                    > > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "alecker23"
                    > > <alecker23@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
                    > > > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
                    > > > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
                    > > >
                    > > > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
                    > > > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
                    > > >
                    > > > Regards
                    > > > > Hi Patricia,
                    > > > >  
                    > > > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree
                    with
                    > > > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's
                    life. 
                    > > I
                    > > > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much
                    of
                    > > > himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have
                    read
                    > > > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
                    > > liked
                    > > > that allusion.
                    > > > >  
                    > > > > my kindest regards, Jan
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@>
                    > > > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
                    > > Marie-
                    > > > Antoinette
                    > > > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Jan,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                    > > > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                    > > > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                    > > > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                    > > > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                    > > > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                    > > > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                    > > > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                    > > > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                    > > > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                    > > > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                    > > > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                    > > > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                    > > > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                    > > > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                    > > > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                    > > > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                    > > > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                    > > > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                    > > > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings
                    too,
                    > > > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                    > > > > good.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                    > > > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                    > > > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                    > > > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                    > > > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                    > > > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                    > > > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                    > > > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is
                    ludicrous.
                    > > > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                    > > > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading
                    this
                    > > > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great
                    to
                    > > > > find it on the net:)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > kindest regards,
                    > > > > Patricia
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                    > > > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article
                    from
                    > > > the
                    > > > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading
                    it
                    > > > > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is
                    so
                    > > > very
                    > > > > special.  My best to  you, Jan
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@
                    yahoogroups.
                    > > > com
                    > > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
                    > > > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
                    > > > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hello,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                    > > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                    > > > Images_of_Marie_
                    > > > > Antoinette
                    > > > > > group.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-
                    Antoinette. pdf
                    > > > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                    > > > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
                    > > Marie-
                    > > > > Antoinette
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
                    > > > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_
                    Antoinette/
                    > > > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
                    > > > Antoinet
                    > > > > te.pdf
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please
                    visit:
                    > > > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
                    > > members/web/
                    > > > > index.htmlfiles
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Regards,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • alecker23
                    ... Yes this the book I am speaking. Regards ... of ... with ... life.  ... read ... ludicrous. ... from ... it ... so ... yahoogroups. ... pdf
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 5, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                      <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
                      >Hi Patricia,

                      Yes this the book I am speaking.

                      Regards
                      > Bonjour, Alecker
                      >
                      > Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait
                      of
                      > an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to me
                      > by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not read
                      > it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
                      > much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
                      > do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
                      > presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to learn
                      > french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
                      > french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
                      > such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide in
                      > Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book, Alecker.
                      >
                      > kind regards,
                      > Patricia
                      >
                      > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "alecker23"
                      > <alecker23@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, janet fauble
                      > > <janetcfauble@> wrote:
                      > > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
                      > >
                      > > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
                      > > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > > Hi Patricia,
                      > > >  
                      > > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree
                      with
                      > > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's
                      life. 
                      > I
                      > > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
                      > > himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have
                      read
                      > > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
                      > liked
                      > > that allusion.
                      > > >  
                      > > > my kindest regards, Jan
                      > > >
                      > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@>
                      > > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
                      > Marie-
                      > > Antoinette
                      > > > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Jan,
                      > > >
                      > > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                      > > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                      > > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                      > > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                      > > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                      > > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                      > > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                      > > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                      > > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                      > > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                      > > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                      > > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                      > > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                      > > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                      > > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                      > > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                      > > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                      > > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                      > > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                      > > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
                      > > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                      > > > good.
                      > > >
                      > > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                      > > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                      > > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                      > > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                      > > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                      > > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                      > > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                      > > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is
                      ludicrous.
                      > > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                      > > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
                      > > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
                      > > > find it on the net:)
                      > > >
                      > > > kindest regards,
                      > > > Patricia
                      > > >
                      > > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                      > > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article
                      from
                      > > the
                      > > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading
                      it
                      > > > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is
                      so
                      > > very
                      > > > special.  My best to  you, Jan
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@
                      yahoogroups.
                      > > com
                      > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
                      > > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
                      > > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hello,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                      > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                      > > Images_of_Marie_
                      > > > Antoinette
                      > > > > group.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette.
                      pdf
                      > > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                      > > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
                      > Marie-
                      > > > Antoinette
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
                      > > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
                      > > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
                      > > Antoinet
                      > > > te.pdf
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                      > > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
                      > members/web/
                      > > > index.htmlfiles
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regards,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • doritmi
                      Dear Patricia, About Fersen s character: a. Opportunist: you could even push it further and say either that getting a post in france was the only way to stay
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 5, 2008
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                        Dear Patricia,
                        About Fersen's character:
                        a. Opportunist: you could even push it further and say either that
                        getting a post in france was the only way to stay close to Marie
                        Antoinette or that position was what every young man at the time
                        needed and taking it from her was fine under the norms of the time -
                        she gave positions to many others who were nto as well connected.
                        However, while I agree with you he was a close friend, I'd be very
                        careful of seeing him as altruistic.

                        b. "clearly had more than a friendly affection for Queen Marie
                        Antoinette" - well, it's not that clear. Why, because their letters
                        are affectionate - and remember, we only have Marie Antoinette's
                        letters to him? Marie Antoinette's letters to most of her friends
                        were brimming over with affection. She was a person with strong
                        feelings, and expressed them. And she was an 18th century woman, a
                        period where sentimentality was in vogue. Compare her letter to
                        Fersen to her letter to her friends. not much difference. The fact
                        that he kept them? Most people kept letters from royalty. Letters
                        have been coming out over the last century that were written by Louis
                        XVI and others - that's why we know more about them. The fact that
                        she was friendly to him? she was known to be friendly to young
                        foreigners, it was one of the criticisms against her. The fact that
                        he didn't marry? he was engaged in three marriage negotiations while
                        in France, and they failed. there is some evidence of his pique at
                        those failures. And several of his known mistresses were also
                        married.
                        He was clearly a friend, but the real evidence of his undying passion
                        was the rumors which surfaced after her death - and if he really
                        loved her, wouldn't he protect her reputation by denying them? - and
                        the fact that he showed attachment to the memory of the royal family
                        and remembered them - but that can be friendship and royalist
                        sentiment as much as love; many people in France mourned for them,
                        and many who knew them mourned more.

                        c. Rake: I wouldn't expect him to stay celibate. But there is a
                        different between sleeping around and serious affairs. Fersen had
                        established, known mistresses, and there is evidence that at least
                        Eleanore Sullivan had a strong hold on his affection - as a matter of
                        fact, he was staying with her in the 1790-1792 visits, when
                        organizing the flight to Varennes. I may be old fashioned, but I have
                        a problem with two "grand passions" at the same time.

                        --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                        <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Doritmi:)
                        >
                        > Thank you for the information about Zweig's book being
                        > available in english. I will try to find it and read it.
                        > It sounds like it might be enjoyable to read. As I think
                        > I've said before in this forum...all of these books even
                        > though based on some history...are still the author's take
                        > on that history and with their opinions as well, so that
                        > we really have to figure out on our own..what is truth and
                        > what isn't. Some things that we read are historical fact,
                        > but much is the author's opinion and conjecture.
                        >
                        > Regarding Count Fersen's character, I have never said he
                        > was a saint. Very few in history, if any...can claim that
                        > title, however...I think many "paint" Fersen in such an
                        > undesirable light because of their own belief system of
                        > what is right and what is wrong. From the books that I have
                        read...he
                        > clearly had more than a friendly affection for Queen Marie
                        Antoinette
                        > and chose to serve both she and the King in any capacity which he
                        > could. Was he an opportunist who used his friendship to gain favor
                        > from the queen, I truly don't think so. It is my own personal
                        > belief that he did, in fact love the Queen. I would not judge
                        > nor call him a "rake" because of the women in his life. I think
                        > many would like to hear the romantic tale that his love for
                        > the queen was so great that he denied himself any female
                        > companionship and sacrificed himself on the "altar" of unrequited
                        > love. That is just not realistic nor reasonable and there is
                        > no absolute proof anywhere that Axel's feelings for Antoinette
                        > weren't genuine. His relationships with other women are not
                        > what I would consider proof nor would I expect that he would live
                        > the life of a monk.
                        >
                        > kind regards,
                        > Patricia
                        >
                        >
                      • madame_antoine
                        Hi Doritmi, From the letters that were in the possession of Count Fersen s sister Sophie...I would say that Axel von Fersen s feelings for Marie Antoinette
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 5, 2008
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                          Hi Doritmi,

                          From the letters that were in the possession of Count Fersen's
                          sister Sophie...I would say that Axel von Fersen's feelings for
                          Marie Antoinette were quite plain and after her death..made even
                          more plain:
                          Fersen to his siter Sophie:

                          "Pity me! Pity me! Only you can understand how I feel now. I have
                          lost all I possessed. Now you are the only one I have. Do not forsake
                          me! She who was my happiness and for whom I lived--yes, my dear
                          Sophie, I never ceased loving her and I would have sacrificed
                          everything for her. I feel it at this moment. She, whom I loved and
                          for whom I would have gladly given a thousand lives, is no more! Dear
                          God, why do you place such a burden upon me, what have I done to
                          deserve your wrath? She is no longer among the living. My pain is
                          indescribable! I do not know how I shall be able to live and bear my
                          agony. Nothing will ever allay it. Her image will always be before me
                          and within me. Her memory and what she meant to me will make me mourn
                          her forever. Everything is over for me. Why was I not allowed to die
                          by her side, to spill my blood for her--for both of them?"


                          Journal, October 22nd, 1793 "The whole day passed in silence, without
                          a word being spoken. All I was able to do was to think and to think;
                          I made a thousand plans. If my health permitted it, I would join the
                          war to revenge her or die. Oh, I felt so desperately unhappy and was
                          unable to think of anything else. I swear eternal vengeance against
                          her murderers, a vengeance that will never cease."

                          I don't know about you...but those were some rather potent words
                          expressing his love for her after her death. A man does not say such
                          things if he does not feel them in his heart. He wasn't trying to
                          impress anyone...he was simply speaking to his own sister with whom
                          he was very close.

                          There can be numerous "great loves" in a person's lifetime. And,
                          it is possible to feel great love for two people at the same time,
                          especially if one is completely unavailable to you. I totally
                          understand this feeling...and I was raised in a very moral way in
                          a very strict religion. I'm not saying here that there was a physical
                          affair between the two...but I still say...there is evidence that
                          there was love between the two...especially from the Count towards
                          the queen. Love for another does not have to be physical to be
                          a "great love". One can love another deeply at the soul level
                          and never have a physical relationship...at least this is my own
                          personal belief and one that I have felt at least once in my lifetime.

                          I appreciate the links to Tea at Trianon. I have read Vidal's blogs
                          before and she is indeed intelligent and well-informed and these are
                          a great resource to anyone studying Marie Antoinette's life.

                          kind regards,
                          Patricia



                          Fersen --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "doritmi"
                          <drub@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Patricia,
                          > About Fersen's character:
                          > a. Opportunist: you could even push it further and say either that
                          > getting a post in france was the only way to stay close to Marie
                          > Antoinette or that position was what every young man at the time
                          > needed and taking it from her was fine under the norms of the time -

                          > she gave positions to many others who were nto as well connected.
                          > However, while I agree with you he was a close friend, I'd be very
                          > careful of seeing him as altruistic.
                          >
                          > b. "clearly had more than a friendly affection for Queen Marie
                          > Antoinette" - well, it's not that clear. Why, because their letters
                          > are affectionate - and remember, we only have Marie Antoinette's
                          > letters to him? Marie Antoinette's letters to most of her friends
                          > were brimming over with affection. She was a person with strong
                          > feelings, and expressed them. And she was an 18th century woman, a
                          > period where sentimentality was in vogue. Compare her letter to
                          > Fersen to her letter to her friends. not much difference. The fact
                          > that he kept them? Most people kept letters from royalty. Letters
                          > have been coming out over the last century that were written by
                          Louis
                          > XVI and others - that's why we know more about them. The fact that
                          > she was friendly to him? she was known to be friendly to young
                          > foreigners, it was one of the criticisms against her. The fact that
                          > he didn't marry? he was engaged in three marriage negotiations
                          while
                          > in France, and they failed. there is some evidence of his pique at
                          > those failures. And several of his known mistresses were also
                          > married.
                          > He was clearly a friend, but the real evidence of his undying
                          passion
                          > was the rumors which surfaced after her death - and if he really
                          > loved her, wouldn't he protect her reputation by denying them? -
                          and
                          > the fact that he showed attachment to the memory of the royal
                          family
                          > and remembered them - but that can be friendship and royalist
                          > sentiment as much as love; many people in France mourned for them,
                          > and many who knew them mourned more.
                          >
                          > c. Rake: I wouldn't expect him to stay celibate. But there is a
                          > different between sleeping around and serious affairs. Fersen had
                          > established, known mistresses, and there is evidence that at least
                          > Eleanore Sullivan had a strong hold on his affection - as a matter
                          of
                          > fact, he was staying with her in the 1790-1792 visits, when
                          > organizing the flight to Varennes. I may be old fashioned, but I
                          have
                          > a problem with two "grand passions" at the same time.
                          >
                          > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                          > <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Doritmi:)
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for the information about Zweig's book being
                          > > available in english. I will try to find it and read it.
                          > > It sounds like it might be enjoyable to read. As I think
                          > > I've said before in this forum...all of these books even
                          > > though based on some history...are still the author's take
                          > > on that history and with their opinions as well, so that
                          > > we really have to figure out on our own..what is truth and
                          > > what isn't. Some things that we read are historical fact,
                          > > but much is the author's opinion and conjecture.
                          > >
                          > > Regarding Count Fersen's character, I have never said he
                          > > was a saint. Very few in history, if any...can claim that
                          > > title, however...I think many "paint" Fersen in such an
                          > > undesirable light because of their own belief system of
                          > > what is right and what is wrong. From the books that I have
                          > read...he
                          > > clearly had more than a friendly affection for Queen Marie
                          > Antoinette
                          > > and chose to serve both she and the King in any capacity which he
                          > > could. Was he an opportunist who used his friendship to gain
                          favor
                          > > from the queen, I truly don't think so. It is my own personal
                          > > belief that he did, in fact love the Queen. I would not judge
                          > > nor call him a "rake" because of the women in his life. I think
                          > > many would like to hear the romantic tale that his love for
                          > > the queen was so great that he denied himself any female
                          > > companionship and sacrificed himself on the "altar" of unrequited
                          > > love. That is just not realistic nor reasonable and there is
                          > > no absolute proof anywhere that Axel's feelings for Antoinette
                          > > weren't genuine. His relationships with other women are not
                          > > what I would consider proof nor would I expect that he would live
                          > > the life of a monk.
                          > >
                          > > kind regards,
                          > > Patricia
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • doritmi
                          Dear Patricia, you make a very good and compelling case that in 1793, Fersen loved Marie Antoinette. I m convinced. About his feelings earlier, I have some
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 6, 2008
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                            Dear Patricia,
                            you make a very good and compelling case that in 1793, Fersen loved
                            Marie Antoinette. I'm convinced.
                            About his feelings earlier, I have some doubt; both Kermina and Nesta
                            Webster, in their biographies of (respectively) Fersen and MA, say
                            that Fersen's expression of love for MA became much more frequent and
                            passionate after her death (and hint, though I don't know if that's
                            convincing, that he was using the connection to get attention. Which
                            raises the question, if he really loved her, would he encourage
                            rumours of a liasion by his silence? It wouldn't be good for her
                            reputation).
                            However, I wonder about his feelings before her death. He was clearly
                            a close friend and a loyal fighter for both king and queen - he was
                            an ardent royalist, and clearly had feelings of at least friendship
                            for them. Did he love her? did he love her as a woman, or as
                            something on a pedestal? he could have adored her as "the queen",
                            that creature above other mortals, not approachable but revered.

                            Thoughts?

                            --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                            <MadameAntoine@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Doritmi,
                            >
                            > From the letters that were in the possession of Count Fersen's
                            > sister Sophie...I would say that Axel von Fersen's feelings for
                            > Marie Antoinette were quite plain and after her death..made even
                            > more plain:
                            > Fersen to his siter Sophie:
                            >
                            > "Pity me! Pity me! Only you can understand how I feel now. I have
                            > lost all I possessed. Now you are the only one I have. Do not
                            forsake
                            > me! She who was my happiness and for whom I lived--yes, my dear
                            > Sophie, I never ceased loving her and I would have sacrificed
                            > everything for her. I feel it at this moment. She, whom I loved and
                            > for whom I would have gladly given a thousand lives, is no more!
                            Dear
                            > God, why do you place such a burden upon me, what have I done to
                            > deserve your wrath? She is no longer among the living. My pain is
                            > indescribable! I do not know how I shall be able to live and bear
                            my
                            > agony. Nothing will ever allay it. Her image will always be before
                            me
                            > and within me. Her memory and what she meant to me will make me
                            mourn
                            > her forever. Everything is over for me. Why was I not allowed to
                            die
                            > by her side, to spill my blood for her--for both of them?"
                            >
                            >
                            > Journal, October 22nd, 1793 "The whole day passed in silence,
                            without
                            > a word being spoken. All I was able to do was to think and to
                            think;
                            > I made a thousand plans. If my health permitted it, I would join
                            the
                            > war to revenge her or die. Oh, I felt so desperately unhappy and
                            was
                            > unable to think of anything else. I swear eternal vengeance against
                            > her murderers, a vengeance that will never cease."
                            >
                            > I don't know about you...but those were some rather potent words
                            > expressing his love for her after her death. A man does not say
                            such
                            > things if he does not feel them in his heart. He wasn't trying to
                            > impress anyone...he was simply speaking to his own sister with whom
                            > he was very close.
                            >
                            > There can be numerous "great loves" in a person's lifetime. And,
                            > it is possible to feel great love for two people at the same time,
                            > especially if one is completely unavailable to you. I totally
                            > understand this feeling...and I was raised in a very moral way in
                            > a very strict religion. I'm not saying here that there was a
                            physical
                            > affair between the two...but I still say...there is evidence that
                            > there was love between the two...especially from the Count towards
                            > the queen. Love for another does not have to be physical to be
                            > a "great love". One can love another deeply at the soul level
                            > and never have a physical relationship...at least this is my own
                            > personal belief and one that I have felt at least once in my
                            lifetime.
                            >
                            > I appreciate the links to Tea at Trianon. I have read Vidal's blogs
                            > before and she is indeed intelligent and well-informed and these are
                            > a great resource to anyone studying Marie Antoinette's life.
                            >
                            > kind regards,
                            > Patricia
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • madame_antoine
                            Hi Doritmi, I retain my beliefs on the feelings Axel had for Antoinette. He had no need to make up those words to his sister. They were sent privately to
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 6, 2008
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                              Hi Doritmi,

                              I retain my beliefs on the feelings Axel had for Antoinette.
                              He had no need to "make up" those words to his sister. They
                              were sent privately to her. No one else knew or heard of these
                              letters to Sophie until after his death. A man does not just
                              suddenly have feelings for a lady of that depth. Those are
                              the kind of feelings that have been there for a while and
                              reach to the depths of ones soul and spirit. I care not for
                              the opinions of historical scholars on this one. I am intelligent
                              enough to see evidence and come to my own conclusions, so it
                              does not matter how many "experts" share their opinion on this
                              issue..my feelings on this are solid and true to what evidence
                              I see.

                              So many "experts" opinions are based on religious dogma and this
                              sometimes inhibits them from seeing something truly without bias.
                              I understand this and see it very often with many experts in many
                              fields of science, health and history. All have their own opinions on
                              how Count Axel felt regarding Antoinette and mine lies in the belief
                              that love cares not for such boundaries as man places around it.
                              Real love comes from deep within the soul of one person and reaches
                              out, enveloping the soul of the one who is loved. Count Axel's
                              love for Antoinette was in every word he said in his letter to his
                              sister Sophie. He was not trying to impress anyone and probably
                              never even thought of his words to her being displayed before the
                              world. Even if one is well known, most do not think of such things
                              during their lifetime. There are many who dislike Count Axel just
                              because of the fact that he is linked in any way romantically to
                              Marie Antoinette. To me, that is a very closed-minded state of mind.
                              No one is saying that they had an intimate relationship. The evidence
                              is there, to me, that Count Axel von Fersen had deep love for Marie
                              Antoinette. I see nothing wrong with that... and I won't close my
                              eyes to this evidence just because some historians and "experts" say
                              otherwise. My belief is that he loved her as a woman...a beloved
                              woman. He also respected her as queen and had great admiration for
                              her and so great was his love and admiration for her that he would
                              have done done anything for her, and she could do no wrong.

                              I have enjoyed this discussion with you, Doritmi and appreciate
                              you sharing your opinions and beliefs on the matter.

                              warmest regards,
                              Patricia



                              -- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "doritmi"
                              <drub@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Patricia,
                              > you make a very good and compelling case that in 1793, Fersen loved
                              > Marie Antoinette. I'm convinced.
                              > About his feelings earlier, I have some doubt; both Kermina and
                              Nesta
                              > Webster, in their biographies of (respectively) Fersen and MA, say
                              > that Fersen's expression of love for MA became much more frequent
                              and
                              > passionate after her death (and hint, though I don't know if that's
                              > convincing, that he was using the connection to get attention.
                              Which
                              > raises the question, if he really loved her, would he encourage
                              > rumours of a liasion by his silence? It wouldn't be good for her
                              > reputation).
                              > However, I wonder about his feelings before her death. He was
                              clearly
                              > a close friend and a loyal fighter for both king and queen - he was
                              > an ardent royalist, and clearly had feelings of at least friendship
                              > for them. Did he love her? did he love her as a woman, or as
                              > something on a pedestal? he could have adored her as "the queen",
                              > that creature above other mortals, not approachable but revered.
                              >
                              > Thoughts?
                              >
                              > --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, "madame_antoine"
                              > <MadameAntoine@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Doritmi,
                              > >
                              > > From the letters that were in the possession of Count Fersen's
                              > > sister Sophie...I would say that Axel von Fersen's feelings for
                              > > Marie Antoinette were quite plain and after her death..made even
                              > > more plain:
                              > > Fersen to his siter Sophie:
                              > >
                              > > "Pity me! Pity me! Only you can understand how I feel now. I have
                              > > lost all I possessed. Now you are the only one I have. Do not
                              > forsake
                              > > me! She who was my happiness and for whom I lived--yes, my dear
                              > > Sophie, I never ceased loving her and I would have sacrificed
                              > > everything for her. I feel it at this moment. She, whom I loved
                              and
                              > > for whom I would have gladly given a thousand lives, is no more!
                              > Dear
                              > > God, why do you place such a burden upon me, what have I done to
                              > > deserve your wrath? She is no longer among the living. My pain is
                              > > indescribable! I do not know how I shall be able to live and bear
                              > my
                              > > agony. Nothing will ever allay it. Her image will always be
                              before
                              > me
                              > > and within me. Her memory and what she meant to me will make me
                              > mourn
                              > > her forever. Everything is over for me. Why was I not allowed to
                              > die
                              > > by her side, to spill my blood for her--for both of them?"
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Journal, October 22nd, 1793 "The whole day passed in silence,
                              > without
                              > > a word being spoken. All I was able to do was to think and to
                              > think;
                              > > I made a thousand plans. If my health permitted it, I would join
                              > the
                              > > war to revenge her or die. Oh, I felt so desperately unhappy and
                              > was
                              > > unable to think of anything else. I swear eternal vengeance
                              against
                              > > her murderers, a vengeance that will never cease."
                              > >
                              > > I don't know about you...but those were some rather potent words
                              > > expressing his love for her after her death. A man does not say
                              > such
                              > > things if he does not feel them in his heart. He wasn't trying to
                              > > impress anyone...he was simply speaking to his own sister with
                              whom
                              > > he was very close.
                              > >
                              > > There can be numerous "great loves" in a person's lifetime. And,
                              > > it is possible to feel great love for two people at the same time,
                              > > especially if one is completely unavailable to you. I totally
                              > > understand this feeling...and I was raised in a very moral way in
                              > > a very strict religion. I'm not saying here that there was a
                              > physical
                              > > affair between the two...but I still say...there is evidence that
                              > > there was love between the two...especially from the Count towards
                              > > the queen. Love for another does not have to be physical to be
                              > > a "great love". One can love another deeply at the soul level
                              > > and never have a physical relationship...at least this is my own
                              > > personal belief and one that I have felt at least once in my
                              > lifetime.
                              > >
                              > > I appreciate the links to Tea at Trianon. I have read Vidal's
                              blogs
                              > > before and she is indeed intelligent and well-informed and these
                              are
                              > > a great resource to anyone studying Marie Antoinette's life.
                              > >
                              > > kind regards,
                              > > Patricia
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • madame_antoine
                              Thanks, Jimmy. I found this book on Amazon.com and have ordered it, along with Diary and Correspondence of Count Axel Fersen, Grand-Marshal of Sweden
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 6, 2008
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                                Thanks, Jimmy. I found this book on Amazon.com and have
                                ordered it, along with "Diary and Correspondence of Count Axel
                                Fersen, Grand-Marshal of Sweden Relating to the Court of France".
                                For the time being, I am trying to learn more about Count Fersen,
                                the man who felt such great love and devotion to Antoinette and
                                these appear to be 2 books I can learn the most from.

                                kind regards,
                                Patricia


                                --- In Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com, jimmy
                                <keltwhip@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I do have it in translation. Jimmy
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@...>
                                > To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 9:35:57 PM
                                > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-
                                Antoinette
                                >
                                >
                                > Bonjour, Alecker
                                >
                                > Are you speaking of Stefan Zweig's,"Marie Antoinette:The Portrait
                                of
                                > an Average Woman"? I actually have this book, which was given to me
                                > by a french friend...but I cannot read french and so have not read
                                > it yet. I am aware that Zweig was an admirer of Sigmund Freud and
                                > much of his work is psychologically based on Freud's theories. I
                                > do not care too much for Freud's theories and so wonder at how he
                                > presents both Count Fersen and Marie Antoinette. I do want to learn
                                > french so that I may be able to read this and other well written
                                > french books which I've heard about on this site. Zweig's life had
                                > such a tragic ending when both he and his wife committed suicide in
                                > Brazil after the war. Thank you for suggesting this book, Alecker.
                                >
                                > kind regards,
                                > Patricia
                                >
                                > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, "alecker23"
                                > <alecker23@ ..> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet
                                fauble
                                > > <janetcfauble@ > wrote:
                                > > >Hi Patricia and Jan,
                                > >
                                > > Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
                                > > psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > > > Hi Patricia,
                                > > >
                                > > > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree
                                with
                                > > you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's
                                life.
                                > I
                                > > do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
                                > > himself to helping her and her family. Everything that I have
                                read
                                > > of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I
                                > liked
                                > > that allusion.
                                > > >
                                > > > my kindest regards, Jan
                                > > >
                                > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ >
                                > > > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with
                                > Marie-
                                > > Antoinette
                                > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Jan,
                                > > >
                                > > > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                                > > > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                                > > > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                                > > > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                                > > > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                                > > > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                                > > > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                                > > > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                                > > > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                                > > > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                                > > > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                                > > > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                                > > > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                                > > > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                                > > > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                                > > > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                                > > > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                                > > > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                                > > > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                                > > > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
                                > > > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                                > > > good.
                                > > >
                                > > > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                                > > > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                                > > > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                                > > > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                                > > > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                                > > > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                                > > > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                                > > > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is
                                ludicrous.
                                > > > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                                > > > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
                                > > > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
                                > > > find it on the net:)
                                > > >
                                > > > kindest regards,
                                > > > Patricia
                                > > >
                                > > > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                                > > > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article
                                from
                                > > the
                                > > > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading
                                it
                                > > > immensely. I wish the diary were in existence today as it is
                                so
                                > > very
                                > > > special. My best to you, Jan
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@
                                yahoogroups.
                                > > com
                                > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
                                > > > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
                                > > > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hello,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                                > > Images_of_Marie_
                                > > > Antoinette
                                > > > > group.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette.
                                pdf
                                > > > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                                > > > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with
                                > Marie-
                                > > > Antoinette
                                > > > >
                                > > > > You can access this file at the URL:
                                > > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
                                > > > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
                                > > Antoinet
                                > > > te.pdf
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                > > > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/
                                > members/web/
                                > > > index.htmlfiles
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Regards,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • janet fauble
                                Thanks, Alecker, for the recommendation of a good book to read. I hope that I can find it to read it now.  Jan ... From: alecker23
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 8, 2008
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                                  Thanks, Alecker, for the recommendation of a good book to read. I hope that I can find it to read it now.  Jan

                                  --- On Mon, 8/4/08, alecker23 <alecker23@...> wrote:
                                  From: alecker23 <alecker23@...>
                                  Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette
                                  To: Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:35 AM

                                  --- In Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                                  <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                                  >Hi Patricia and Jan,

                                  Concerning Fersen and the queen(and his rapports)read the bio
                                  psychologic masterpiece writed by Stefan Zweig.

                                  Regards
                                  > Hi Patricia,
                                  >  
                                  > Usually you and I agree on most things, and I totally agree with
                                  you now about the role of Axel Fersen in Queen Antoinette's life.  I
                                  do not consider him a rake or a cad either, as he gave so much of
                                  himself to helping her and her family.  Everything that I have read
                                  of him makes him appear a knight in shining armor all right. I liked
                                  that allusion.
                                  >  
                                  > my kindest regards, Jan
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ ...>
                                  > Subject: Re: New MA file: Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-
                                  Antoinette
                                  > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 8:12 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Jan,
                                  >
                                  > I've missed you! I was so excited to find that article and
                                  > to read and get a better idea of the man we see so often
                                  > linked with Antoinette. I wanted to find out more about him
                                  > because I've seen him referred to occasionally in this group
                                  > in negative terms and I just did not feel he deserved to be
                                  > called a "rake". He was intelligent and possessed of a noble
                                  > spirit and he deeply loved and adored the Queen of France and
                                  > wanted to protect her. Who can fault him for that? A person
                                  > cannot help themeselves from falling in love with another even
                                  > if they are "unavailable" to them. He knew that he could not
                                  > have the queen in his life as his heart may have wished...so
                                  > he chose to serve and protect her...and tried to do that her
                                  > whole life. When he saw that Antoinette was becoming too
                                  > besotted with him....he nobly left for a number of years. He
                                  > had no wish to cause any problems for her. In the book I am
                                  > reading by Hilaire Belloc...he speaks of how Antoinette's
                                  > eyes followed Axel whenever he was around. She was captivated
                                  > by him (and all of us ladies know exactly how that feels) to
                                  > be so totally captivated by a man..that whenever he is around,
                                  > you cannot take your eyes off him. He realized her feelings too,
                                  > and this is why he left for a time. He knew it was for her own
                                  > good.
                                  >
                                  > From what I have read...Axel von Fersen was an intelligent,
                                  > articulate man possessed of a nobleness of spirit. If he had
                                  > various "affairs" with other women...it was because he could
                                  > not be with the lady who truly held his heart. He was not a
                                  > "cad" or a "rake" because of this. I do not find fault with
                                  > with him because he did not live the life of a monk. To expect
                                  > that he should live his life alone...or marry a woman he did
                                  > not love just to satisfy the expectations of others is ludicrous.
                                  > I have read now from many books and none of them have given me
                                  > the image of a "cad" or a "rake". Glad you enjoyed reading this
                                  > wonderful, historical article from the NYTimes. It was great to
                                  > find it on the net:)
                                  >
                                  > kindest regards,
                                  > Patricia
                                  >
                                  > ages_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com, janet fauble
                                  > <janetcfauble@ ...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you, Patricia, for placing this interesting article from
                                  the
                                  > NYTimes in a file where we can all read it. I enjoyed reading it
                                  > immensely.  I wish the diary were in existence today as it is so
                                  very
                                  > special.  My best to  you, Jan
                                  > >
                                  > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups.
                                  com
                                  > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > From: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > <Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com>
                                  > > Subject: New file uploaded to Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette
                                  > > To: Images_of_Marie_ Antoinette@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 7:27 PM
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello,
                                  > >
                                  > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                  > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                                  Images_of_Marie_
                                  > Antoinette
                                  > > group.
                                  > >
                                  > > File : /Count Fersen's Correspondence with Marie-Antoinette. pdf
                                  > > Uploaded by : madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                                  > > Description : Count Fersen's Diary and Correspondence with Marie-
                                  > Antoinette
                                  > >
                                  > > You can access this file at the URL:
                                  > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Images_ of_Marie_ Antoinette/
                                  > files/Count% 20Fersen% 27s%20Correspond ence%20with% 20Marie-
                                  Antoinet
                                  > te.pdf
                                  > >
                                  > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                  > > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/
                                  > index.htmlfiles
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > madame_antoine <MadameAntoine@ aol.com>
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • Images_of_Marie_Antoinette@yahoogroups.co
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