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Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

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  • Christopher Ameel
    My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter. Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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      My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
       
      Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
       
      Thanks,
      Chris
       
       
       
    • Wizard
      the word you used ws QUALITY. If you want Quality.. then the answer is no. Build a nice DN. Easy to transport, set up and sail It never looses its value
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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        the word you used ws QUALITY.   If you want Quality.. then the answer is no.
         
         
        Build a nice DN.  Easy to transport, set up and sail
        It never looses its value
        Look on the used market.  $1000  ->  2000.
         
        Mike Hoydis
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:04 PM
        Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

        My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
         
        Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
         
        Thanks,
        Chris
         
         
         


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • artebird@aol.com
        Mike, so you are telling me to buy an old one from the 1920 s or earlier
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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          Mike, so you are telling me to buy an old one from the 1920's or earlier
        • Madden, Stephen
          IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO GO THE WINDSURFER ROUTE, THEN CONTACT STEVE DUHAMEL (NORTHWIND ICEBOATS) 508-826-8004. HE USED TO SELL A CONVERSION KIT AND HAS
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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            IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO GO THE WINDSURFER ROUTE, THEN CONTACT STEVE DUHAMEL
            (NORTHWIND ICEBOATS) 508-826-8004.
            HE USED TO SELL A CONVERSION KIT AND HAS PICTURES WITH AN ICEBOAT ALL SET
            UP. HE MAY HAVE THE PARTS NEEDED.
            IT CAN BE DONE, HOWEVER I HAVE NEVER SAILED ONE.
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Christopher Ameel [mailto:cjameel@...]
            Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:05 PM
            To: IceBoating@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails


            My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat
            this winter. Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we
            already have. However, I have been warned by at least one person that this
            is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy
            enough.

            Well any thoughts on this? Can you make a quality iceboat using a
            windsurfing sail and mast?

            Thanks,
            Chris

            cjameel@... <mailto:cjameel@...>



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          • David Wilkins
            Chris, Try iceflyer.com. Check out the attachments (if they work with this e-group). I d say a good quality modern windurfing rig works just fine. They can be
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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              Chris,

              Try iceflyer.com. Check out the attachments (if they work with this
              e-group).
              I'd say a good quality modern windurfing rig works just fine. They can be
              had cheap too.

              David Wilkins
            • dkretchmer@normandeau.com
              Seems a difference of opinion here. The iceboats with windsurfing rigs (haven t seen an ice flyer in action) I have seen in NH are often faster than the DNs.
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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                Seems a difference of opinion here.  The iceboats with windsurfing rigs (haven't seen an ice flyer in action) I have seen in NH are often faster than the DNs.  Even though I own an iceboat with a white sail, I am a windsurfer also and  I think having a bit of color on the ice is a good thing.  It makes it much easier to see who is who or just to see when the snow is blowing.  On a more practical matter, one design sailing and racing is critical to our sport but experimenting with different sail plans and setups can only push the sport further meaning more fun for all.  If you can use your windsurfing gear all year, even better!  If we were all hell bent on being static, we'd all be sailing stern steerers! 

                Think ice,
                Don


                At 02:04 PM 10/29/01 -0500, you wrote:
                My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
                 
                Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
                 
                Thanks,
                Chris
                 
                cjameel@...
                 
                 

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              • James Smith
                This year, I have been using wind surfing gear on my land yacht, speeds up to 80 mph and nary a problem with quality wind surfing gear. The references of the
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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                  This year, I have been using wind surfing gear on my land yacht, speeds up to 80 mph and nary a problem with quality wind surfing gear.
                   
                  The references of the DN shows this is easily possible.
                   
                  Jim Smith
                  Seattle Washington
                  North American Land Sailing Assc.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:04 AM
                  Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                  My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
                   
                  Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
                   
                  Thanks,
                  Chris
                   
                   
                   


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Wizard
                  NO... not the year 1900... A decent DN on the used market will be $1000 - $2000 Of course... a basic , knock around boat can be found for less if you get
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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                    NO... not the year 1900...  
                     
                    A decent DN on the used market will be $1000 - $2000
                     
                    Of course...  a basic , knock around boat can be found for less if you get lucky.
                     
                    If you want a DN... Send me an email and I will relay the message to the Ice mail list.  Someone may have a spare that they no longer need.  Also... Check the DN site.  It can be linked from our site   www.nsibyc.com
                     
                     
                    Mike Hoydis
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:17 PM
                    Subject: Re: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                    Mike, so you are telling me to buy an old one from the 1920's or earlier

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  • Durgin@aol.com
                    Don, Several sailors have done it using the DN Hull plans and hardware with their Windsurfer rigs. I have 4 Windsurfer sails and 1 DN complete and haven t
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 29, 2001
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                      Don,

                      Several sailors have done it using the DN Hull plans and hardware with
                      their Windsurfer rigs. I have 4 Windsurfer sails and 1 DN complete and
                      haven't tried it yet but intend to with the Ice Flyer accessories. I'm not
                      sure about stiff winds, but I think it should work well in light and med
                      conditions.

                      Right now I am adapting one of my canoes for the Windsurfer Sail Rig.
                      This will take care of all the seasons.


                      Good Luck,


                      Chuck Durgin
                    • Christopher J. Ameel
                      Just wanted to thank everyone for the great comments. I think we re going to go for the Ice Flyer designs. Hopefully I ll have plenty of pictures to share
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                        Just wanted to thank everyone for the great comments. I think we're
                        going to go for the Ice Flyer designs. Hopefully I'll have plenty of
                        pictures to share before the winter's up.

                        Thanks again.

                        Chris
                        cjameel@...


                        --- In IceBoating@y..., Durgin@a... wrote:
                        > Don,
                        >
                        > Several sailors have done it using the DN Hull plans and
                        hardware with
                        > their Windsurfer rigs. I have 4 Windsurfer sails and 1 DN complete
                        and
                        > haven't tried it yet but intend to with the Ice Flyer accessories.
                        I'm not
                        > sure about stiff winds, but I think it should work well in light
                        and med
                        > conditions.
                        >
                        > Right now I am adapting one of my canoes for the Windsurfer
                        Sail Rig.
                        > This will take care of all the seasons.
                        >
                        >

                        > Good Luck,
                        >
                        >

                        > Chuck Durgin
                      • thejdee@amtelecom.net
                        I keep getting this message. How come? John ... Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                          I keep getting this message. How come?
                          John


                          > ** Original Subject: RE: [IceBoating] Re: Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails
                          > ** Original Sender: "Christopher J. Ameel" <cjameel@...>
                          > ** Original Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:27:19 -0500

                          > ** Original Message follows...

                          >
                          > Just wanted to thank everyone for the great comments. I think we're
                          > going to go for the Ice Flyer designs. Hopefully I'll have plenty of
                          > pictures to share before the winter's up.
                          >
                          > Thanks again.
                          >
                          > Chris
                          > cjameel@...
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In IceBoating@y..., Durgin@a... wrote:
                          > > Don,
                          > >
                          > > Several sailors have done it using the DN Hull plans and
                          > hardware with
                          > > their Windsurfer rigs. I have 4 Windsurfer sails and 1 DN complete
                          > and
                          > > haven't tried it yet but intend to with the Ice Flyer accessories.
                          > I'm not
                          > > sure about stiff winds, but I think it should work well in light
                          > and med
                          > > conditions.
                          > >
                          > > Right now I am adapting one of my canoes for the Windsurfer
                          > Sail Rig.
                          > > This will take care of all the seasons.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Good Luck,
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Chuck Durgin
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                          >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

                          >


                          Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                        • clamaral
                          cj, I see several messages that look like responses. I m sure you ll get some good advice. Attached is a file of what I like to do. icbrdmn@capecod.net ...
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                            cj,
                             
                            I see several messages that look like responses.  I'm sure you'll get some good advice.
                             
                            Attached is a file of what I like to do.
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Christopher Ameel <cjameel@...>
                            To: IceBoating@yahoogroups.com <IceBoating@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:05 PM
                            Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                            My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
                             
                            Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
                             
                            Thanks,
                            Chris
                             
                             
                             


                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          • clamaral
                            You must be strong. I have to do it on ice, so that if I fall, I can slide. Attached is a file from Long Pond in Brewster, MA 1/ 01. icbrdmn@capecod.net ...
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                              You must be strong.  I have to do it on ice, so that if I fall, I can slide.  Attached is a file from Long Pond in Brewster, MA 1/'01.
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: James Smith <worldbook1@...>
                              To: IceBoating@yahoogroups.com <IceBoating@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:20 PM
                              Subject: Re: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                              This year, I have been using wind surfing gear on my land yacht, speeds up to 80 mph and nary a problem with quality wind surfing gear.
                               
                              The references of the DN shows this is easily possible.
                               
                              Jim Smith
                              Seattle Washington
                              North American Land Sailing Assc.
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:04 AM
                              Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                              My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
                               
                              Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
                               
                              Thanks,
                              Chris
                               
                               
                               


                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            • James Smith
                              Thanks for the reply - No it is not a strength issue as I do my land yachting sitting down. Attached is a photo of 2 of my craft which we use in the dry lake
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                Thanks for the reply - No it is not a strength issue as I do my land yachting sitting down. Attached is a photo of  2 of my craft which we use in the dry lake areas of Oregon and Nevada. They are powered by wind surf gear and masts that are notably beffier on the smaller rigs. The front craft uses an assymetrical wing mast to increase lift and thus create better apparent wind angle and better speed.
                                 
                                I still would like to ventrue to the East Coast this winter and try ice sailing - Any suggestions where a novice ice sailor might find a place to learn would be appreciated.
                                 
                                An open invite is also made for anyone wanting to join us next Memorial Day Weekend in SE Oregon to try land yachting.
                                 
                                Thanks Jim
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: clamaral
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                                You must be strong.  I have to do it on ice, so that if I fall, I can slide.  Attached is a file from Long Pond in Brewster, MA 1/'01.
                                 
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: James Smith <worldbook1@...>
                                To: IceBoating@yahoogroups.com <IceBoating@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:20 PM
                                Subject: Re: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                                This year, I have been using wind surfing gear on my land yacht, speeds up to 80 mph and nary a problem with quality wind surfing gear.
                                 
                                The references of the DN shows this is easily possible.
                                 
                                Jim Smith
                                Seattle Washington
                                North American Land Sailing Assc.
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:04 AM
                                Subject: [IceBoating] Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails

                                My father-in-law and I were going to try our hand at building an iceboat this winter.  Our original intent was to utilize a windsurfer that we already have.  However, I have been warned by at least one person that this is just not a good idea as the material for the sail is simply not sturdy enough.
                                 
                                Well any thoughts on this?  Can you make a quality iceboat using a windsurfing sail and mast?
                                 
                                Thanks,
                                Chris
                                 
                                 
                                 


                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                              • jeffsod@tmlp.com
                                ... try ice sailing - Any suggestions where a novice ice sailor might find a place to learn would be appreciated. Try calling our NEIYA hotline to find out
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                  > "I still would like to ventrue to the East Coast this winter and
                                  try ice sailing - Any suggestions where a novice ice sailor might
                                  find a place to learn would be appreciated."

                                  Try calling our NEIYA hotline to find out where we will be sailing
                                  some weekend 508 481 1011. Season starts the end of December and goes
                                  thru beggining or middle of March. Unlike Landsailing where you know
                                  exactly where you are going to be sailing on any given weekend we
                                  need to be more flexible due to conditions. You can also try the ice
                                  reports section of the NEIYA website which is here:

                                  http://www.concentric.net/~dn4762/index.shtml
                                • edatkeson@earthlink.net
                                  JS Attached is a photo of 2 of my craft which we use in the dry lake areas of Oregon and Nevada. They are powered by wind surf gear and masts that are
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                    JS >>> Attached is a photo of 2 of my craft which we use in the dry
                                    lake areas of Oregon and Nevada. They are powered by wind surf gear and
                                    masts that are notably beffier on the smaller rigs. The front craft uses
                                    an assymetrical wing mast to increase lift and thus create better
                                    apparent wind angle and better speed.

                                    JS >>> My other obvious problem is that I need to plan a bit ahead for
                                    airfares etc. Can I generally (assuming a good winter) be able to count
                                    on an "area" so as to be in an approximate location to then be able to
                                    move to wherever I need to find the action on a given day or weekend ?
                                    ----------------------------------------------
                                    Your dirtboats are beautiful, thanks for the pic Jim.

                                    Just my opinion, but the last few years I'd say the most reliable
                                    sailing is on the ponds south of Boston. There is very little snow and
                                    good breezes. But... you never know.

                                    There is often action on Lake Ronkonkoma in LI, Bantam Lake in western
                                    Conn, Navasink River in Redbank NJ, call the NEIYA hotline like Jeff
                                    says. The Redbank group used to have a webcam so you could see if they
                                    were sailing before you left the house! There are other hotlines too,
                                    but this year the NEIYA is revamping their hotline so that you can hear
                                    news from different locations with one call.

                                    There's also the historic boats on the Hudson at Germantown, the guys on
                                    Lake Canadarago at Cooperstown NY, our little group at Saratoga,
                                    Champlain in VT, Winnepasaukee and Sunapee in NH.

                                    It's a bit spread out, but you can usually sail somewhere. See you on
                                    the ice.
                                    Ed A
                                  • James Smith
                                    Thanks Jeff - My other obvious problem is that I need to plan a bit ahead for airfares etc. Can I generally ( assuming a good winter ) be able to count on an
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                      Thanks Jeff - My other obvious problem is that I need to plan a bit ahead
                                      for airfares etc. Can I generally ( assuming a good winter ) be able to
                                      count on an "area" so as to be in an approximate location to then be able to
                                      move to wherever I need to find the action on a given day or weekend ?

                                      Thanks Jim

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: <jeffsod@...>
                                      To: <IceBoating@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:32 PM
                                      Subject: [IceBoating] Re: Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails


                                      >
                                      > > "I still would like to ventrue to the East Coast this winter and
                                      > try ice sailing - Any suggestions where a novice ice sailor might
                                      > find a place to learn would be appreciated."
                                      >
                                      > Try calling our NEIYA hotline to find out where we will be sailing
                                      > some weekend 508 481 1011. Season starts the end of December and goes
                                      > thru beggining or middle of March. Unlike Landsailing where you know
                                      > exactly where you are going to be sailing on any given weekend we
                                      > need to be more flexible due to conditions. You can also try the ice
                                      > reports section of the NEIYA website which is here:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.concentric.net/~dn4762/index.shtml
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • jeffsod@tmlp.com
                                      ... ahead for ... count ... to ... weekend ? Like Ed Said it can be a little spread out but if one were determined to sail in the northeast then flying into
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                        --- > JS >>> My other obvious problem is that I need to plan a bit
                                        ahead for
                                        > airfares etc. Can I generally (assuming a good winter) be able to
                                        count
                                        > on an "area" so as to be in an approximate location to then be able
                                        to
                                        > move to wherever I need to find the action on a given day or
                                        weekend ?

                                        Like Ed Said it can be a little spread out but if one were determined
                                        to sail in the northeast then flying into Boston would be a good
                                        start. Boston being pretty central. You can find ice most weekends in
                                        January and February within a 2 hour drive of Boston. Sometimes not
                                        that far but othertimes maybe more say if the best ice happens to be
                                        in Burlington Vermont or at Bantam Lake in Connecticut. You should
                                        allow a few day window to ensure you get the right combination of
                                        wind and ice. Usually just after a front we get strong Northwest
                                        winds and need a day for it to abate or lessen. Remember,we don't
                                        need as much wind as the land sailors do.
                                      • James Smith
                                        Thanks for the ideas Jeff - I did appreciate the info from Ed and will try to get back for a week and a couple of weekends in Jan or Feb. Ed gave me a couple
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                          Thanks for the ideas Jeff - I did appreciate the info from Ed and will try
                                          to get back for a week and a couple of weekends in Jan or Feb. Ed gave me a
                                          couple of phone numbers to check once I get into the area. Hopefully I can
                                          make contact with some groups and find a chance to try the Ice.

                                          Thanks again - Jim

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: <jeffsod@...>
                                          To: <IceBoating@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:49 PM
                                          Subject: [IceBoating] Re: Traditional DN's Vs. Wind Surfer Sails


                                          > --- > JS >>> My other obvious problem is that I need to plan a bit
                                          > ahead for
                                          > > airfares etc. Can I generally (assuming a good winter) be able to
                                          > count
                                          > > on an "area" so as to be in an approximate location to then be able
                                          > to
                                          > > move to wherever I need to find the action on a given day or
                                          > weekend ?
                                          >
                                          > Like Ed Said it can be a little spread out but if one were determined
                                          > to sail in the northeast then flying into Boston would be a good
                                          > start. Boston being pretty central. You can find ice most weekends in
                                          > January and February within a 2 hour drive of Boston. Sometimes not
                                          > that far but othertimes maybe more say if the best ice happens to be
                                          > in Burlington Vermont or at Bantam Lake in Connecticut. You should
                                          > allow a few day window to ensure you get the right combination of
                                          > wind and ice. Usually just after a front we get strong Northwest
                                          > winds and need a day for it to abate or lessen. Remember,we don't
                                          > need as much wind as the land sailors do.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • jmt
                                          DN s, Windsurf rig Ice Boats, and Safety on the Ice While a novice ice boater, I windsurf (3 masts, 5 sails) and after one ride in a DN last winter I
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                            DN's, Windsurf rig Ice Boats, and Safety on the Ice

                                            While a novice ice boater, I windsurf (3 masts, 5 sails) and after one ride in a DN last winter I immediately started looking into windsurfing rig iceboats vs traditional boats such as the DN.

                                            First, the windsurfing masts are quite strong enough. Remember, skilled windsurfers sail these in surf, the gorge, etc. doing stunts that can take the board and rig airborne with board pointing up and mast tip down. They do not always land these upright and do not routinely break masts. I have never
                                            heard of a windsurfer breaking a mast locally out on the water in winds most ice boaters would (quite sensibly) not venture out on the ice. In contrast, the one weekend I went ice boating, one of the iceboats snapped its mast.

                                            Second, I agree with several previous comments that if you want to get out and go ice boating, a used DN is probably the best investment to get going quickly and have resale value if you move up or out of ice boating. As others mentioned, $1,000 to $1,500 can get you a perfectly sailable boat. The DN
                                            site is http://sailingsource.com/ice/. I would get someone experienced to check before you buy or buy from someone you can trust. For comparison, someone who was very serious about DN racing might want a top-of-the-line commercially built new DN. At last weekend's iceboat swap meet this could total
                                            $1400 for a carbon mast, $1400 for a fuselage, and about $500 each for water jet cut steel with carbon reinforcement runners (needs 3). Oh yes, you will also need hardware for that fuselage and a sail plus boom would be helpful. As one friend put it, the DN is really a development 'one design' class.

                                            You (and particularly your father-in-law) might want to try sailing a DN first. My first ride hooked me on ice boating BUT after 30' the reclining position plus helmet aggravated an old neck problem that had not bothered me for years. I stopped sailing the DN immediately. For me, a DN is out because of
                                            the sailing position. I still want something car-toppable at this stage. If I stay with it, I suspect one of the more strictly one-designs such as a Nite or Renegade will be my second iceboat.

                                            The IceFlyer that others mentioned looks the most promising - upright seating, sturdy, great visibility, and car toppable. You should visit the extensive site at http://iceflyer.com/index.html Unfortunately, due to liability concerns created by boats being sailed in ridiculously high winds, they no
                                            longer sell the kit with molded fiberglass fuselage and all the hardware. Now he only sells a few specialized fittings for the windsurfing rig. The plans are free pdf files. I suggest downloading the plans now so you that have them should you ever want to build an IceFlyer.

                                            Another windsurfing rig iceboat is the Isabella which comes in 3 versions. The simplest is largely made of 2x4's plus custom hardware they claim can be assembled in just a few hours. The site in the USA is http://www.berezin.com/index.shtml but unfortunately I have not received any responses to my
                                            e-mail inquires. The Swedish site (the design and hardware is Swedish) is http://www.isabella-iceboat.com/iseng.html This site has answered my e-mail inquires.

                                            Finally, like any water sport, you need both some equipment and some knowledge to be safe out there. For ice boating a good helmet, ice claws, appropriate clothing, a throw line, knowledge about ice conditions where you are sailing, and the buddy system are strongly advised. Join a club if at all
                                            possible.

                                            For helmets consider a snowmobile helmet because these are often designed to minimize fogging better than a motorcycle helmet. See http://www.jackwilleys.com/store/index.html

                                            For ice safety equipment visit http://www.nordicskater.com/

                                            For floating immersion suits designed for snomobiling (a leading cause of snowmobile deaths is breaking through the ice) see Mustang Survival Gear, for example at:
                                            http://www.lhrservices.com/lhr_contents.htm
                                            http://www.jackwilleys.com/store/index.html
                                            http://warnersdock.com/mustimmersn.htm
                                            http://www.offshore-boats.com/survivalmust.htm

                                            For ice safety some good sites are
                                            http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/information_and_education/water_safety/ice_safety.html
                                            http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/safety_intro.htm
                                            http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/spring_ice.htm
                                            http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/ice_sailability.htm

                                            Good luck and let us know how you come out.
                                          • edatkeson@earthlink.net
                                            jmt: Finally, like any water sport, you need both some equipment and some knowledge to be safe out there. For ice boating a good helmet, ice claws,
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 2, 2001
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                                              jmt: >>> Finally, like any water sport, you need both some equipment and
                                              some knowledge to be safe out there. For ice boating a good helmet, ice
                                              claws, appropriate clothing, a throw line, knowledge about ice
                                              conditions where you are sailing, and the buddy system are strongly
                                              advised. Join a club if at all possible.
                                              -----------------------
                                              Excellent note jmt,

                                              If I could add one thing to the safety gear list -- don't go out without
                                              some kind of spikes on your feet. Say you're trying to rescue a sailor
                                              or a boat, a throwline is useless if you can't pull on it because your
                                              feet are sliding.

                                              best,
                                              Ed A
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