Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ITMS] Re: Artificial Life: Re:

Expand Messages
  • PENDYALA
    Hi All,   Could you please provide a link to this..   I dont think this is possible. ... From: ramesh Subject: [ITMS] Re:
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 1, 2010
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi All,
       
      Could you please provide a link to this..
       
      I dont think this is possible.

      --- On Mon, 5/31/10, ramesh <ramesh.ajgaonkar@...> wrote:

      From: ramesh <ramesh.ajgaonkar@...>
      Subject: [ITMS] Re: Artificial Life: Re:
      To: IT_Madhva_Sangha@yahoogroups.com, "madhwayuvaparishat" <MadhwaYuvaParishat@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 6:54 AM

       
      excellent thot sri haridas. it is true that not an entier cell was synthesized but its dna material removed and a new code inserted and life kick-started with cell dvision, its only a matter of time before a completely computer crafted bio-cell can be generated ... let us hail this great achivement and invest more time in this "external" science ! we must enourage our children in 'external' science without fail...

      it is slowly getting proved i believe that his reality we are seeing is nothing but a bio-chemical process and complex reaction, the premise of science is what you cannot prove does not exist seems to be working and humans will click the big secrete of life completely soon, ethics apart this is the right way to go forward and we must invst our time and money in this great pursuit.

      our system deals with internal/spritual sciences and we would be comparing apples and oranges in trying to prove one from the other - let us not get confused and let us pursue loukkia and adyatmic vidhya with equal vigor with either one not being superior to other in their own realms.


      On 31 May 2010 11:55, vikram haridas <haridasvikram@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
       
      hi
      i would suggest to conduct workshop on who am i
      life is being created in lab by inanimate thing in the lab.so its time to re think on the concept of jiva,god and tatva by various acharya.
      thanks

      --- On Sat, 29/5/10, Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com> wrote:

      > From: Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com>
      > Subject: [ITMS] Workshop (Invite): 20th June @ 2.45 pm; Topic: “Life of Sri Madhvacharya” in Picture and Lecture Format; Venue – Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar
      > To:
      > Date: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 10:20 AM
      >          
      >                
      >      Sri Vyaasa Madhwa Samshodhana
      > Pratishthana®
      >
      >                
      >           Madhvacharya for the
      > Youth Workshops
      >
      >                
      >                
      >     Workshop Series for the Youth
      >
      > “Na hi jnanena sadrsam pavitram iha vidyate” - Gita ,
      > Chapter 4, Verse 38
      >
      > Topic:  “Life of Sri Madhvacharya”  in
      > Picture and Lecture Format
      >
      > Speaker: Dr. Vyasanakere Prabhanjanacharya
      >
      > Time: 2.45 pm – 5.15 pm, Sunday,20th June 2010
      >
      > Venue:  Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar, Bangalore
      > (5 mins drive from Poornapragna Vidyapeetha Circle)
      >
      > Itinerary:
      >
      > 2:45 - 3.00 - Welcome Speech followed by Bhajan and Sloka
      > recitation.
      >
      > 3:00 - 4:30 – Discourse on “Life of Sri
      > Madhvacharya”  in Picture and
      >                
      >   Lecture Format
      >                
      >      By Dr. Vyasanakere
      > Prabhanjanacharya
      >
      > 4:30 - 5:15 - Interactive Q & A session
      >
      > 5:15 –  Vote of Thanks and Manthraakshathe
      > distribution.
      > (Note: Coffee/Tea would be served after the workshop)
      >
      > Contact Details
      > Pavamaan @ 22443297/99453 12563 or Pavan @ 98868 06939 or
      > Send email to madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com
      > or
      > madhwacharya4youth@ gmail.com
      > or madhvacharyaforyout h@...
      >
      > Also please feel free to send this mail to anyone who you
      > think will
      > be interested in attending the workshop.
      >
      > Note: There are no charges for the workshop.
      >
      > Welcome once again to the workshop! We are sure you will
      > enjoy the same.
      >
      >
      > Warm Regards
      > Volunteers-Madhvach arya for the Youth Workshop
      >
      > Visit www.vyasamadhwa. org/upanyasa/ Workshop for free audio
      > downloads
      > of previous workshops
      >
      >
      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >
      > Please visit us at http://madhvasangha .blogspot. com/ for detailed reports
      > and announcements. You can also reach us at madhva.sangha@ gmail.com
      >
      >
      > Note: The opinions expressed in this mail are wholly that
      > of the author and not necessarily that of ITMS until
      > explicitly mentioned therein.
      > #endYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >     IT_Madhva_Sangha- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
      >
      >
      >




      --
      Ramesh Ajgaonkar

    • vikram haridas
      hello I appreciate ur response.I am not sure what is jiva according to sri madhwacharya,or by sri shankara.what are they referring to as jiva.The way things
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 1, 2010
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        hello
        I appreciate ur response.I am not sure what is jiva according to sri madhwacharya,or by sri shankara.what are they referring to as jiva.The way things are moving in science it seems that jada can be converted to jiva one or the other day.And adhiyatma will not tell somthing which is different from science.adhityma is also a science.Everything is science.
         
        I am basically  a doctor and i have a question please think over this.
         
        Kidney from one person can to donated to the other person and the kidney recepient will survive with the same kidney for many yrs.If i want i keep kidney in deep freeze and can transplant it in person after some time.Kidney is living in deep freeze,kidney is in surviving in the recepient.If jiva (seperate entity) controls the jada(kidney then who is controlling it when its in deep freeze,or which jiva is controlling it when the organ is in some others body.there are lot of such questions which needs to be answered.
         
        Please spare some time  to think and then shall dicuss
        bye
         


        --- On Mon, 31/5/10, ramesh <ramesh.ajgaonkar@...> wrote:

        From: ramesh <ramesh.ajgaonkar@...>
        Subject: [ITMS] Re: Artificial Life: Re:
        To: IT_Madhva_Sangha@yahoogroups.com, "madhwayuvaparishat" <MadhwaYuvaParishat@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Monday, 31 May, 2010, 4:24 PM



        excellent thot sri haridas. it is true that not an entier cell was synthesized but its dna material removed and a new code inserted and life kick-started with cell dvision, its only a matter of time before a completely computer crafted bio-cell can be generated ... let us hail this great achivement and invest more time in this "external" science ! we must enourage our children in 'external' science without fail...

        it is slowly getting proved i believe that his reality we are seeing is nothing but a bio-chemical process and complex reaction, the premise of science is what you cannot prove does not exist seems to be working and humans will click the big secrete of life completely soon, ethics apart this is the right way to go forward and we must invst our time and money in this great pursuit.

        our system deals with internal/spritual sciences and we would be comparing apples and oranges in trying to prove one from the other - let us not get confused and let us pursue loukkia and adyatmic vidhya with equal vigor with either one not being superior to other in their own realms.


        On 31 May 2010 11:55, vikram haridas <haridasvikram@...> wrote:
         
        hi
        i would suggest to conduct workshop on who am i
        life is being created in lab by inanimate thing in the lab.so its time to re think on the concept of jiva,god and tatva by various acharya.
        thanks

        --- On Sat, 29/5/10, Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@...> wrote:

        > From: Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@...>
        > Subject: [ITMS] Workshop (Invite): 20th June @ 2.45 pm; Topic: “Life of Sri Madhvacharya” in Picture and Lecture Format; Venue – Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar
        > To:
        > Date: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 10:20 AM
        >          
        >                
        >      Sri Vyaasa Madhwa Samshodhana
        > Pratishthana®
        >
        >                
        >           Madhvacharya for the
        > Youth Workshops
        >
        >                
        >                
        >     Workshop Series for the Youth
        >
        > “Na hi jnanena sadrsam pavitram iha vidyate” - Gita ,
        > Chapter 4, Verse 38
        >
        > Topic:  “Life of Sri Madhvacharya”  in
        > Picture and Lecture Format
        >
        > Speaker: Dr. Vyasanakere Prabhanjanacharya
        >
        > Time: 2.45 pm – 5.15 pm, Sunday,20th June 2010
        >
        > Venue:  Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar, Bangalore
        > (5 mins drive from Poornapragna Vidyapeetha Circle)
        >
        > Itinerary:
        >
        > 2:45 - 3.00 - Welcome Speech followed by Bhajan and Sloka
        > recitation.
        >
        > 3:00 - 4:30 – Discourse on “Life of Sri
        > Madhvacharya”  in Picture and
        >                
        >   Lecture Format
        >                
        >      By Dr. Vyasanakere
        > Prabhanjanacharya
        >
        > 4:30 - 5:15 - Interactive Q & A session
        >
        > 5:15 –  Vote of Thanks and Manthraakshathe
        > distribution.
        > (Note: Coffee/Tea would be served after the workshop)
        >
        > Contact Details
        > Pavamaan @ 22443297/99453 12563 or Pavan @ 98868 06939 or
        > Send email to madhvacharya4youth@...
        > or
        > madhwacharya4youth@...
        > or madhvacharyaforyouth@...
        >
        > Also please feel free to send this mail to anyone who you
        > think will
        > be interested in attending the workshop.
        >
        > Note: There are no charges for the workshop.
        >
        > Welcome once again to the workshop! We are sure you will
        > enjoy the same.
        >
        >
        > Warm Regards
        > Volunteers-Madhvacharya for the Youth Workshop
        >
        > Visit www.vyasamadhwa.org/upanyasa/Workshop for free audio
        > downloads
        > of previous workshops
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Please visit us at http://madhvasangha.blogspot.com/ for detailed reports
        > and announcements. You can also reach us at madhva.sangha@...
        >
        >
        > Note: The opinions expressed in this mail are wholly that
        > of the author and not necessarily that of ITMS until
        > explicitly mentioned therein.
        > #endYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >     IT_Madhva_Sangha-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >




        --
        Ramesh Ajgaonkar



      • raghavendra anand
        Dear Hari Das                   WOULD YOU SUBSCRIBE THAT THERE IS NO
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 2, 2010
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Hari Das

                             WOULD YOU SUBSCRIBE THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOD? SINCE SCIENCE CLAIMS AND CONDUCTED CLONNING OF MAN HAS BEGUN?as per your information.


          ANAND

          On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:30:32 +0530 wrote
          >

          excellent thot sri haridas. it is true that not an entier cell was synthesized but its dna material removed and a new code inserted and life kick-started with cell dvision, its only a matter of time before a completely computer crafted bio-cell can be generated ... let us hail this great achivement and invest more time in this "external" science ! we must enourage our children in 'external' science without fail...

          >
          >it is slowly getting proved i believe that his reality we are seeing is nothing but a bio-chemical process and complex reaction, the premise of science is what you cannot prove does not exist seems to be working and humans will click the big secrete of life completely soon, ethics apart this is the right way to go forward and we must invst our time and money in this great pursuit.
          >
          >our system deals with internal/spritual sciences and we would be comparing apples and oranges in trying to prove one from the other - let us not get confused and let us pursue loukkia and adyatmic vidhya with equal vigor with either one not being superior to other in their own realms.
          >
          >
          >
          On 31 May 2010 11:55, vikram haridas <haridasvikram@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
          >
           

          hi
          >i would suggest to conduct workshop on who am i
          >life is being created in lab by inanimate thing in the lab.so its time to re think on the concept of jiva,god and tatva by various acharya.
          >thanks
          >
          >--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com> wrote:
          >
          >> From: Madhvacharya For The Youth Workshop <madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com>
          >> Subject: [ITMS] Workshop (Invite): 20th June @ 2.45 pm; Topic: “Life of Sri Madhvacharya” in Picture and Lecture Format; Venue – Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar
          >> To:
          >> Date: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 10:20 AM
          >>          
          >>                
          >>      Sri Vyaasa Madhwa Samshodhana
          >> Pratishthana®
          >>
          >>                
          >>           Madhvacharya for the
          >> Youth Workshops
          >>
          >>                
          >>                
          >>     Workshop Series for the Youth
          >>
          >> “Na hi jnanena sadrsam pavitram iha vidyate” - Gita ,
          >> Chapter 4, Verse 38
          >>
          >> Topic:  “Life of Sri Madhvacharya”  in
          >> Picture and Lecture Format
          >>
          >> Speaker: Dr. Vyasanakere Prabhanjanacharya
          >>
          >> Time: 2.45 pm – 5.15 pm, Sunday,20th June 2010
          >>
          >> Venue:  Vijaya Bharathi School, Girinagar, Bangalore
          >> (5 mins drive from Poornapragna Vidyapeetha Circle)
          >>
          >> Itinerary:
          >>
          >> 2:45 - 3.00 - Welcome Speech followed by Bhajan and Sloka
          >> recitation.
          >>
          >> 3:00 - 4:30 – Discourse on “Life of Sri
          >> Madhvacharya”  in Picture and
          >>                
          >>   Lecture Format
          >>                
          >>      By Dr. Vyasanakere
          >> Prabhanjanacharya
          >>
          >> 4:30 - 5:15 - Interactive Q & A session
          >>
          >> 5:15 –  Vote of Thanks and Manthraakshathe
          >> distribution.
          >> (Note: Coffee/Tea would be served after the workshop)
          >>
          >> Contact Details
          >> Pavamaan @ 22443297/99453 12563 or Pavan @ 98868 06939 or
          >> Send email to madhvacharya4youth@ gmail.com
          >> or
          >> madhwacharya4youth@ gmail.com
          >> or madhvacharyaforyout h@...
          >>
          >> Also please feel free to send this mail to anyone who you
          >> think will
          >> be interested in attending the workshop.
          >>
          >> Note: There are no charges for the workshop.
          >>
          >> Welcome once again to the workshop! We are sure you will
          >> enjoy the same.
          >>
          >>
          >> Warm Regards
          >> Volunteers-Madhvach arya for the Youth Workshop
          >>
          >> Visit www.vyasamadhwa. org/upanyasa/ Workshop for free audio
          >> downloads
          >> of previous workshops
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
          >>
          >> Please visit us at http://madhvasangha .blogspot. com/ for detailed reports
          >> and announcements. You can also reach us at madhva.sangha@ gmail.com
          >>
          >>
          >> Note: The opinions expressed in this mail are wholly that
          >> of the author and not necessarily that of ITMS until
          >> explicitly mentioned therein.
          >> #endYahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>     IT_Madhva_Sangha- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >


          >

          >--
          >Ramesh Ajgaonkar
          >


        • Krishna K
          On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:08 PM, vikram haridas ... Srimad Anandatirtharu quotes parama-shruti, in which jiiva is defined as follows: ahamityeva yo vedyaH sa
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 2, 2010
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:08 PM, vikram haridas
            <haridasvikram@...> wrote:

            > I appreciate ur response.I am not sure what is jiva according to sri madhwacharya,

            Srimad Anandatirtharu quotes parama-shruti, in which jiiva is defined
            as follows:

            ahamityeva yo vedyaH sa jIva iti kIrtitaH |
            sa duHkhI sa sukhI chaiva sa pAtraM bandhamoxayoH ||

            That which is knowable as 'I' is referred as the jiiva. He is subject
            to sadness, happiness (feelings) and is subject to bondage and
            liberation.

            In my opinion, this is the most fundamental definition of jiiva. All
            our experience is rooted in that 'I'. All our experience - "I saw the
            book", "I dreamt this", "I know this", "I don't know that", "I felt
            happy", "I was pained" - has that 'I' as the foundation. What is that
            'I'? More importantly, what is that which experiences this 'I'? What
            is that which knows this 'I'?

            For us, the answer is that the experiencer, the knower of that 'I' and
            the referrent of that 'I' is same. It is the jIva. It is a
            self-referring entity. It can and does know itself. [As an aside,
            advaita does not agree, but based on some grammatical principle called
            kartru-karma-virodha].

            The word used in English is 'Consciousness'; that which can be capable
            of being conscious of' something. Obviously there is a difference with
            our conception of 'jIva', but let's go with it for now.

            According to contemporary science (and this is not scientific, IMO),
            'living' organisms - only which have 'consciousness' - are those which
            have certain processes like metabolism, reproduction, and can respond
            to stimuli (among other things). I always felt - before the world saw
            cloning, or artificial reproduction of species by copying the DNA from
            another - that this definition is flawed because it ignores the MOST
            important aspect of a living organism - which is to know itself.
            Response to stimuli, reproduction and metabolism are chemical
            reactions, and I was sure that one day we will be able to replicate
            all these processes in the lab. But can we produce an organism that
            can know itself? To extend that to other attributes (as understood by
            shAstra) - ichChA and kriyA - can we create an organism that can feel
            itself? Can we create an organism that can have volitive action (i.e.
            uninfluenced or unprogrammed by others)? I think science is nowhere
            near that, and therefore disagree with you that science is or will be
            able to create jiiva out of jaDa.

            And what is the current understanding of science on this problem of
            self-referring knower (that we call jIva)? Most 'philosophers' think
            that there are two problems - easy problem and hard problem - of
            consciousness. The easy problem deals with the 'functions' and the
            hard problem tries to explain why we have qualitative experience. So
            neither of them have even identified the fundamental problem correctly
            (without knowing 'who' is the experiencer, why go after understanding
            the mechanism of experience). On the part of 'scientists', there are
            certain interesting developments of late. There is one
            V.S.Ramachandran (a neurologist in US, and an author of a very
            interesting book called 'Phantoms of the Brain') who says that there
            are 'mirror-neurons' that give us this sense of self (mirror neurons
            are those that help an organism get a sense of how 'other' organisms
            look at it. Thereby they give you a sense of 'self'. You can see his
            videos on Youtube or TED explaining this point. But that too begs the
            question - who is the knower of sense of self? [The same argument
            applies to all those who hold that consciousness is an illusion
            created by neurons. Illusion to whom?]

            Is it scientifically feasible to generate this self-referring knower?
            I am not so sure. Look at these - This notion of 'self' is either
            present or absent (in coma, for ex). There is no 'scale'. In the fat,
            in the lean, the mighty, in the weak - it is just one unit. It is
            boolean. We don't say "Only half-I is experiencing now'. The knower is
            indivisible. Then, there is never an experience of 'components of this
            'I'ness [How can multiple neurons give rise to this, without the
            neurons having a notion of identity themselves]. And then there is the
            biggest problem of 'self-referring'? Can you program a robot that
            knows itself? In my imagination, you will need a computer of infinite
            processing power to do that? (how else will you provide a response to
            an infinite looped question that 'I know that I know that I know that
            I know that... an event has occurred'). So matter - all forms of
            matter - are fundamentally different from this knower. So this knower
            must be like a fundamental element of this universe - separate from
            matter. So it seems to me that it is impossible to create jiiva out of
            jaDa.

            > Kidney is living in deep freeze,kidney is in surviving in the recepient.
            > If jiva (seperate entity) controls the jada(kidney then who is controlling
            > it when its in deep freeze,or which jiva is controlling it when the organ
            > is in some others body.there are lot of such questions which needs
            > to be answered.

            Kidney, heart, liver, mind - and such body parts are like parts of an
            engine. They will work without knowing who the driver is. A jiiva is
            hypothesised or concluded because we experience that 'I'ness
            (self-awareness, let's say) and NOT because we need to have a
            controller for body organs.

            Regards,
            Krishna
          • vikram haridas
            hello Its really aprecaible that u had patience to reply.I am full of doubts with lot of quiries.I have some answer for ur the explaination. Concept of I Who
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 3, 2010
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              hello
              Its really aprecaible that u had patience to reply.I am full of doubts with lot of quiries.I have some answer for ur the explaination.

              Concept of I

              Who am i.Is it the body,is it something else.I am basically a doctor,and would like to share some facts.Each cell in the body has its own identity.Each cell has its own functioning.The body is designed in such a way that each organ functions independently.We have heard lots about blood mismatch.They do matching of blood before transfusion.Its ti because if their is a mismatch then probably it will initiate a reaction in the body.So the reaction what happens is just bacause each cell has identity .It has a capacity identify self and non self.The concept of self and non self is present in each and every cell.If we put blood cell in others body it will identify that its other body and trie to fight.

              So as far a Identity of I is concerned its even at the basic level.Can each cell have a jiva?If not then where and what is jiiva?


              These are the doubts which i have in my mind and i have no intention to prove or disprove the tatva.This is my sincere effort to find my self I.
              bye

              --- On Wed, 2/6/10, Krishna K <krishna.kadiri@...> wrote:

              > From: Krishna K <krishna.kadiri@...>
              > Subject: Re: [ITMS] Re: Artificial Life: Re:
              > To: IT_Madhva_Sangha@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, 2 June, 2010, 11:41 PM
              > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:08 PM,
              > vikram haridas
              > <haridasvikram@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > I appreciate ur response.I am not sure what is jiva
              > according to sri madhwacharya,
              >
              > Srimad Anandatirtharu quotes parama-shruti, in which jiiva
              > is defined
              > as follows:
              >
              >   ahamityeva yo vedyaH sa jIva iti kIrtitaH  |
              >   sa duHkhI sa sukhI chaiva sa pAtraM bandhamoxayoH
              > ||
              >
              > That which is knowable as 'I' is referred as the jiiva. He
              > is subject
              > to sadness, happiness (feelings) and is subject to bondage
              > and
              > liberation.
              >
              > In my opinion, this is the most fundamental definition of
              > jiiva. All
              > our experience is rooted in that 'I'. All our experience -
              > "I saw the
              > book", "I dreamt this", "I know this", "I don't know that",
              > "I felt
              > happy", "I was pained" - has that 'I' as the foundation.
              > What is that
              > 'I'? More importantly, what is that which experiences this
              > 'I'? What
              > is that which knows this 'I'?
              >
              > For us, the answer is that the experiencer, the knower of
              > that 'I' and
              > the referrent of that 'I' is same. It is the jIva. It is a
              > self-referring entity. It can and does know itself. [As an
              > aside,
              > advaita does not agree, but based on some grammatical
              > principle called
              > kartru-karma-virodha].
              >
              > The word used in English is 'Consciousness'; that which can
              > be capable
              > of being conscious of' something. Obviously there is a
              > difference with
              > our conception of 'jIva', but let's go with it for now.
              >
              > According to contemporary science (and this is not
              > scientific, IMO),
              > 'living' organisms - only which have 'consciousness' - are
              > those which
              > have certain processes like metabolism, reproduction, and
              > can respond
              > to stimuli (among other things). I always felt - before the
              > world saw
              > cloning, or artificial reproduction of species by copying
              > the DNA from
              > another - that this definition is flawed because it ignores
              > the MOST
              > important aspect of a living organism - which is to know
              > itself.
              > Response to stimuli, reproduction and metabolism are
              > chemical
              > reactions, and I was sure that one day we will be able to
              > replicate
              > all these processes in the lab. But can we produce an
              > organism that
              > can know itself? To extend that to other attributes (as
              > understood by
              > shAstra) - ichChA and kriyA - can we create an organism
              > that can feel
              > itself? Can we create an organism that can have volitive
              > action (i.e.
              > uninfluenced or unprogrammed by others)? I think science is
              > nowhere
              > near that, and therefore disagree with you that science is
              > or will be
              > able to create jiiva out of jaDa.
              >
              > And what is the current understanding of science on this
              > problem of
              > self-referring knower (that we call jIva)? Most
              > 'philosophers' think
              > that there are two problems - easy problem and hard problem
              > - of
              > consciousness. The easy problem deals with the 'functions'
              > and the
              > hard problem tries to explain why we have qualitative
              > experience. So
              > neither of them have even identified the fundamental
              > problem correctly
              > (without knowing 'who' is the experiencer, why go after
              > understanding
              > the mechanism of experience). On the part of 'scientists',
              > there are
              > certain interesting developments of late. There is one
              > V.S.Ramachandran (a neurologist in US, and an author of a
              > very
              > interesting book called 'Phantoms of the Brain') who says
              > that there
              > are 'mirror-neurons' that give us this sense of self
              > (mirror neurons
              > are those that help an organism get a sense of how 'other'
              > organisms
              > look at it. Thereby they give you a sense of 'self'. You
              > can see his
              > videos on Youtube or TED explaining this point. But that
              > too begs the
              > question - who is the knower of sense of self? [The same
              > argument
              > applies to all those who hold that consciousness is an
              > illusion
              > created by neurons. Illusion to whom?]
              >
              > Is it scientifically feasible to generate this
              > self-referring knower?
              > I am not so sure. Look at these - This notion of 'self' is
              > either
              > present or absent (in coma, for ex). There is no 'scale'.
              > In the fat,
              > in the lean, the mighty, in the weak - it is just one unit.
              > It is
              > boolean. We don't say "Only half-I is experiencing now'.
              > The knower is
              > indivisible. Then, there is never an experience of
              > 'components of this
              > 'I'ness [How can multiple neurons give rise to this,
              > without the
              > neurons having a notion of identity themselves]. And then
              > there is the
              > biggest problem of 'self-referring'? Can you program a
              > robot that
              > knows itself? In my imagination, you will need a computer
              > of infinite
              > processing power to do that? (how else will you provide a
              > response to
              > an infinite looped question that 'I know that I know that I
              > know that
              > I know that... an event has occurred'). So matter - all
              > forms of
              > matter - are fundamentally different from this knower. So
              > this knower
              > must be like a fundamental element of this universe -
              > separate from
              > matter. So it seems to me that it is impossible to create
              > jiiva out of
              > jaDa.
              >
              > > Kidney is living in deep freeze,kidney is in surviving
              > in the recepient.
              > > If jiva (seperate entity) controls the jada(kidney
              > then who is controlling
              > > it when its in deep freeze,or which jiva is
              > controlling it when the organ
              > > is in some others body.there are lot of such questions
              > which needs
              > > to be answered.
              >
              > Kidney, heart, liver, mind - and such body parts are like
              > parts of an
              > engine. They will work without knowing who the driver is. A
              > jiiva is
              > hypothesised or concluded because we experience that
              > 'I'ness
              > (self-awareness, let's say) and NOT because we need to have
              > a
              > controller for body organs.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Krishna
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please visit us at http://madhvasangha.blogspot.com/ for detailed reports
              > and announcements. You can also reach us at madhva.sangha@...
              >
              >
              > Note: The opinions expressed in this mail are wholly that
              > of the author and not necessarily that of ITMS until
              > explicitly mentioned therein.
              > #endYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >     IT_Madhva_Sangha-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • Krishna K
              On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 2:19 PM, vikram haridas ... That is the point. It is something else. I also feel that you haven t got the idea of self-awareness or
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 3, 2010
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 2:19 PM, vikram haridas
                <haridasvikram@...> wrote:

                > hello
                > Its really aprecaible that u had patience to reply.I am full of doubts with lot of quiries.I have some answer for ur the explaination.
                >
                > Concept of I
                >
                > Who am i.Is it the body,is it something else.

                That is the point. It is something else. I also feel that you haven't
                got the idea of self-awareness or self-referring principle, that has a
                notion of identity. You are mistaking it to blood cells' adaptability.
                Just because a blood cell has a 'mismatch', it does not imply it has
                an identity __ that it is aware of __. Even some chemicals, when
                brought together, can have an adverse reaction. That does not mean
                they have an identity that they are aware of. Not just having an
                identity, but having the experience of that 'I' as the root of all
                experience, is the key factor. I don't think cells have that notion.
                The 'mismatch' and 'adverse' reactions of chemicals is not based on a
                notion of identity that the cells are aware of, but based on the
                expected reaction that will do good to the body.

                Moreover, if the 'life' in the cells (as defined by science) were to
                be same as the 'I' ness that each of us experience, then there are
                other problems. We must then accept that fat people have more 'I' ness
                than leaner people. It is also known that cells die and are born every
                other minute in the body. So we must also experience "My I-ness is
                reducing now' or 'My I-ness is increasing now'. Similarly, we must
                experience some 'I' ness for a short while even after death because
                some cells are active for atleast a couple of hours (thereby allowing
                organ transplantation). Similarly, people who are brain-dead but have
                other organs active because of some ventilators, must be said to
                experience that 'I'ness. And similarly, the moment the zygote is
                formed, it must be said to have the experience of 'I'ness - which the
                modern scientific community denies (This is particularly relevant in
                the western countries where orthodox Christians prohibit abortion on
                the ground that it is equivalent to killing somebody). But our
                experience is contrary to all of that. Our experience of 'I' is
                boolean, not a scalable, not a quantum function and does not depend on
                bodily changes. Therefore, as the Lord says in the Gita 2.12, the
                jiiva - the locus and object of experience of this identity - is
                different from the body!

                > I am basically a doctor,
                Anyway the things mentioned below are taught in high school.

                Btw, if you are keen on getting these doubts answered, please go to a
                proper scholar and get them answered, instead of waiting for laymen
                like me to answer.

                Regards,
                Krishna


                and would like to share some facts.Each cell in the body has its own
                identity.Each cell has its own functioning.The body is designed in
                such a way that each organ functions independently.We have heard lots
                about blood mismatch.They do matching of blood before transfusion.Its
                ti because if their is a mismatch then probably it will initiate a
                reaction in the body.So the reaction what happens is just bacause each
                cell has identity .It has a capacity identify self and non self.The
                concept of self and non self is present in each and every cell.If we
                put blood cell in others body it will identify that its other body and
                trie to fight.
                >
                > So as far a Identity of I is concerned its even at the basic level.Can each cell have  a jiva?If not then where and what is jiiva?
                >
                >
                > These are the doubts which i have in my mind and i have no intention to prove or disprove the tatva.This is my sincere effort to find my self I.
                > bye
                >
              • vikram haridas
                Hi thanks for the reply.Its just an effort to ignite mind to think with the recent advances and not just to beleive what is told. Still i am not convinced.
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 4, 2010
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi
                  thanks for the reply.Its just an effort to ignite mind to think with the recent advances and not just to beleive what is told.

                  Still i am not convinced.

                  (Anyway the things mentioned below are taught in high
                  school).


                  We all have been studiying the same at all levels of education but awareness differs at diffent stage of evolution.Example given by me isn simple example so that every one can understand.


                  I would appreciate if my questions are answered by a person who know science as well as tatva.

                  bye





                  --- On Thu, 3/6/10, Krishna K <krishna.kadiri@...> wrote:

                  > From: Krishna K <krishna.kadiri@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [ITMS] Re: Artificial Life: Re:
                  > To: IT_Madhva_Sangha@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, 3 June, 2010, 6:43 PM
                  > On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 2:19 PM,
                  > vikram haridas
                  > <haridasvikram@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > hello
                  > > Its really aprecaible that u had patience to reply.I
                  > am full of doubts with lot of quiries.I have some answer for
                  > ur the explaination.
                  > >
                  > > Concept of I
                  > >
                  > > Who am i.Is it the body,is it something else.
                  >
                  > That is the point. It is something else. I also feel that
                  > you haven't
                  > got the idea of self-awareness or self-referring principle,
                  > that has a
                  > notion of identity. You are mistaking it to blood cells'
                  > adaptability.
                  > Just because a blood cell has a 'mismatch', it does not
                  > imply it has
                  > an identity __ that it is aware of __. Even some chemicals,
                  > when
                  > brought together, can have an adverse reaction. That does
                  > not mean
                  > they have an identity that they are aware of. Not just
                  > having an
                  > identity, but having the experience of that 'I' as the root
                  > of all
                  > experience, is the key factor. I don't think cells have
                  > that notion.
                  > The 'mismatch' and 'adverse' reactions of chemicals is not
                  > based on a
                  > notion of identity that the cells are aware of, but based
                  > on the
                  > expected reaction that will do good to the body.
                  >
                  > Moreover, if the 'life' in the cells (as defined by
                  > science) were to
                  > be same as the 'I' ness that each of us experience, then
                  > there are
                  > other problems. We must then accept that fat people have
                  > more 'I' ness
                  > than leaner people. It is also known that cells die and are
                  > born every
                  > other minute in the body. So we must also experience "My
                  > I-ness is
                  > reducing now' or 'My I-ness is increasing now'. Similarly,
                  > we must
                  > experience some 'I' ness for a short while even after death
                  > because
                  > some cells are active for atleast a couple of hours
                  > (thereby allowing
                  > organ transplantation). Similarly, people who are
                  > brain-dead but have
                  > other organs active because of some ventilators, must be
                  > said to
                  > experience that 'I'ness. And similarly, the moment the
                  > zygote is
                  > formed, it must be said to have the experience of 'I'ness -
                  > which the
                  > modern scientific community denies (This is particularly
                  > relevant in
                  > the western countries where orthodox Christians prohibit
                  > abortion on
                  > the ground that it is equivalent to killing somebody). But
                  > our
                  > experience is contrary to all of that. Our experience of
                  > 'I' is
                  > boolean, not a scalable, not a quantum function and does
                  > not depend on
                  > bodily changes. Therefore, as the Lord says in the Gita
                  > 2.12, the
                  > jiiva - the locus and object of experience of this identity
                  > - is
                  > different from the body!
                  >
                  > > I am basically a doctor,
                  > Anyway the things mentioned below are taught in high
                  > school.
                  >
                  > Btw, if you are keen on getting these doubts answered,
                  > please go to a
                  > proper scholar and get them answered, instead of waiting
                  > for laymen
                  > like me to answer.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Krishna
                  >
                  >
                  > and would like to share some facts.Each cell in the body
                  > has its own
                  > identity.Each cell has its own functioning.The body is
                  > designed in
                  > such a way that each organ functions independently.We have
                  > heard lots
                  > about blood mismatch.They do matching of blood before
                  > transfusion.Its
                  > ti because if their is a mismatch then probably it will
                  > initiate a
                  > reaction in the body.So the reaction what happens is just
                  > bacause each
                  > cell has identity .It has a capacity identify self and non
                  > self.The
                  > concept of self and non self is present in each and every
                  > cell.If we
                  > put blood cell in others body it will identify that its
                  > other body and
                  > trie to fight.
                  > >
                  > > So as far a Identity of I is concerned its even at the
                  > basic level.Can each cell have  a jiva?If not then where
                  > and what is jiiva?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > These are the doubts which i have in my mind and i
                  > have no intention to prove or disprove the tatva.This is my
                  > sincere effort to find my self I.
                  > > bye
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please visit us at http://madhvasangha.blogspot.com/ for detailed reports
                  > and announcements. You can also reach us at madhva.sangha@...
                  >
                  >
                  > Note: The opinions expressed in this mail are wholly that
                  > of the author and not necessarily that of ITMS until
                  > explicitly mentioned therein.
                  > #endYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >     IT_Madhva_Sangha-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.