Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Spring Forward, happy campers

Expand Messages
  • johnmsteele
    Several have expressed dislike of DST changes, but it s time, this weekend. 2004-04-04, all countries on the North American DST plan switch, oncluding the
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Several have expressed dislike of DST changes, but it's time, this
      weekend.

      2004-04-04, all countries on the "North American' DST plan switch,
      oncluding the Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada, Cuba, Mexico, and the United
      States. The transition is generally at 02:00 local, zone-by-zone.
      Cuba and the province of Newfoundland are exceptions at local
      midnight. Note that Canada, Mexico, and the US each have small areas
      that do not observe DST.

      Last Sunday, the EU, Eastern European countries, Russia, former USSR
      satellites, and Australia (in reverse) all switched. That leaves a
      handful of Middle Eastern nations and another handful of Southern
      Hemisphere nations who have their own unique dates and times.
    • BUDAI Andrew
      ... From: johnmsteele To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2004 04 03, (Saturday) 07:43 Subject: [ISO8601] Spring Forward, happy campers Several have expressed
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: 2004 04 03, (Saturday) 07:43
        Subject: [ISO8601] Spring Forward, happy campers

        Several have expressed dislike of DST changes, but it's time, this
        weekend.

        2004-04-04, all countries on the "North American' DST plan switch,
        including the Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada, Cuba, Mexico, and the United
        States. The transition is generally at 02:00 local, zone-by-zone.
        Cuba and the province of Newfoundland are exceptions at local
        midnight.  Note that Canada, Mexico, and the US each have small areas
        that do not observe DST.

        Last Sunday, the EU, Eastern European countries, Russia, former USSR
        satellites, and Australia (in reverse) all switched. That leaves a
        handful of Middle Eastern nations and another handful of Southern
        Hemisphere nations who have their own unique dates and times.

            All of the above leaves me feel happy that I live in a place where a more common sense prevails.  Taiwan is not trying fix social habits by messing around with the time pieces. 
         
            The Taiwanese are naturally nocturnal species, but they learned to read the clock that is supposed to reflect the science of astronomy and the rotation of the earth. 
         
            They also learned to accept the undisputable fact that noon is when the sun is on its zenith, or midnight is when the sun is on the nadir of the local geography. 
         
            Anyone who chooses to get up late at in the morning can do so without lying about the time of the day. 
         
            I wonder if some wags out there are thinking about changing the movement of the solar system to accommodate human habits.
         
            B., Andrew

      • Morris, Mike
        I m not particularly a fan of daylight savings either, but in fairness, I d like to point out that: * Taiwan is at only 25 degrees N latitude, where
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          I'm not particularly a fan of daylight savings either, but in fairness, I'd
          like to point out that:
          * Taiwan is at only 25 degrees N latitude, where summer/winter shifts
          are minimal. Taiwan is also small enough that it doesn't have extreme
          differences internally, which makes consistency possible and more attractive
          * Calling it noon when the sun is overhead isn't an undisputable fact,
          it's merely a social convention.

          Now, HTML emails... THERE'S a problem!!!
          <g>

          All of the above leaves me feel happy that I live in
          a place where a more common sense prevails. Taiwan is not trying fix social
          habits by messing around with the time pieces.
          The Taiwanese are naturally nocturnal species, but
          they learned to read the clock that is supposed to reflect the science of
          astronomy and the rotation of the earth.
          They also learned to accept the undisputable fact
          that noon is when the sun is on its zenith, or midnight is when the sun is
          on the nadir of the local geography.
          Anyone who chooses to get up late at in the morning
          can do so without lying about the time of the day.
          I wonder if some wags out there are thinking about
          changing the movement of the solar system to accommodate human habits.
          B., Andrew
        • NGUYEN Adam
          ... Iran switches forward around this time (either last Sunday or this upcoming Sunday) because I know they switch back in the end of September...
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            At 2004-04-02 23:43 (UTC+0000), you wrote:
            >Last Sunday, the EU, Eastern European countries, Russia, former USSR
            >satellites, and Australia (in reverse) all switched. That leaves a
            >handful of Middle Eastern nations and another handful of Southern
            >Hemisphere nations who have their own unique dates and times.

            Iran switches forward around this time (either last Sunday or this upcoming
            Sunday) because I know they switch back in the end of September...
          • NGUYEN Adam
            ... Well, China covers a greater area of latitude and they don t do DST/Summer Time either. It doesn t really have to do with the latitude of the country in
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              At 2004-04-02 17:45 (UTC-0800), you wrote:

              >I'm not particularly a fan of daylight savings either, but in fairness, I'd
              >like to point out that:
              >* Taiwan is at only 25 degrees N latitude, where summer/winter shifts
              >are minimal. Taiwan is also small enough that it doesn't have extreme
              >differences internally, which makes consistency possible and more attractive
              >* Calling it noon when the sun is overhead isn't an undisputable fact,
              >it's merely a social convention.

              Well, China covers a greater area of latitude and they don't do DST/Summer
              Time either. It doesn't really have to do with the latitude of the country
              in question. I think Alaska and Antarctica don't do DST either; and they
              are at the parts of the world that would be most affected by DST. Correct
              me if I'm wrong.
            • Morris, Mike
              ... You re probably right, I m certainly not familiar with those specifics (I m no expert on time in general, I m just a lurker here :-) I really didn t
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                > Well, China covers a greater area of latitude and they don't
                > do DST/Summer
                > Time either. It doesn't really have to do with the latitude
                > of the country
                > in question. I think Alaska and Antarctica don't do DST
                > either; and they
                > are at the parts of the world that would be most affected by
                > DST. Correct
                > me if I'm wrong.


                You're probably right, I'm certainly not familiar with those specifics (I'm
                no expert on time in general, I'm just a "lurker" here :-)

                I really didn't intend to start any serious debate on the issue... I just
                wanted to point out that things are often more complex than they seem and
                cultural issues often play a bigger factor than they're given credit for.

                And, lastly, whenever it seems like everyone else is crazy and I'm the only
                one that's thinking straight about an issue, I generally take some time to
                re-examine my position... often I'm ignorant of a key principle, or blinded
                by some preconception, etc.

                Anyway, I do envy you your full night's sleep tomorrow :-)
              • John M. Steele
                Alaska does, Hawaii doesn t. I m not sure about Antarctica. Latitude does make a big difference. Near the equator, there is very little change in the length of
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Alaska does, Hawaii doesn't. I'm not sure about Antarctica.
                   
                  Latitude does make a big difference. Near the equator, there is very little change in the length of the day from summer to winter. At the poles, the change is so extreme that it goes from zero hours to 24, so maybe DST isn't much use there. At moderately high latitudes, the long summer days are better balanced to human schedules by shifting the day, so that sunrise and humans getting up roughly coincide and the extra hours of daylight are in the early evening to reduce usage of electric lights instead of wasted at 5AM. In the winter, the day is just too short anyway, and the conventional solar transit at noon (more or less with standard time zones) works best. At least that is the argument.
                   
                  Obviously, humans could keep the clock the same and simply change their schedule, but changing the schedule of all store hours, business hours broadcast hours for radio/tv, etc gets a bit confusing. My "atomic clock" changes itself, my computer asks if it did it right. Not really much of a nuisance.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: NGUYEN Adam [mailto:adam917@...]
                  Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 08:56 PM
                  To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [ISO8601] Spring Forward, happy campers

                  It doesn't really have to do with the latitude of the country
                  in question. I think Alaska and Antarctica don't do DST either; and they
                  are at the parts of the world that would be most affected by DST. Correct
                  me if I'm wrong.
                • John M. Steele
                  The Iranians use their own calendar which keeps the spring equinox on the same day. It is synchronized to the Gregorian calendar plus or minus one day. They
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Iranians use their own calendar which keeps the spring equinox on the same day. It is synchronized to the Gregorian calendar plus or minus one day. They switch on either March 21 or 22 (Gregorian) in the spring and Sep 21 or 22 in the fall, according to the tz data file (human readable) that is used to generate time zone support for Unix. Their date is not tied to a Sunday although it could happen to fall on a Sunday.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: NGUYEN Adam [mailto:adam917@...]
                    Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 08:51 PM
                    To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Spring Forward, happy campers

                    At 2004-04-02 23:43 (UTC+0000), you wrote:
                    >Last Sunday, the EU, Eastern European countries, Russia, former USSR
                    >satellites, and Australia (in reverse) all switched. That leaves a
                    >handful of Middle Eastern nations and another handful of Southern
                    >Hemisphere nations who have their own unique dates and times.

                    Iran switches forward around this time (either last Sunday or this upcoming
                    Sunday) because I know they switch back in the end of September...

                  • NGUYEN Adam
                    ... Well, DST won t affect me anyway, as I go to sleep after the clocks change anyway...
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At 2004-04-02 18:05 (UTC-0800), you wrote:
                      >Anyway, I do envy you your full night's sleep tomorrow :-)

                      Well, DST won't affect me anyway, as I go to sleep after the
                      clocks change anyway...
                    • NGUYEN Adam
                      ... Oh. I forgot about that. They have three calendars in use: Persian, Islamic/Hijri, and Gregorian. Islamic is only used for religious purposes. Gregorian is
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 2004-04-02 21:42 (UTC-0500), you wrote:

                        The Iranians use their own calendar which keeps the spring equinox on the same day. It is synchronized to the Gregorian calendar plus or minus one day. They switch on either March 21 or 22 (Gregorian) in the spring and Sep 21 or 22 in the fall, according to the tz data file (human readable) that is used to generate time zone support for Unix. Their date is not tied to a Sunday although it could happen to fall on a Sunday.

                                 Oh. I forgot about that. They have three calendars in use: Persian, Islamic/Hijri, and Gregorian. Islamic is only used for religious purposes. Gregorian is only used for international purposes and for such things like you just stated. Persian is used for everything else. I heard that the Persian calendar is one of the most complex ever, going out-of-sync by one day every so many million years!
                      • johnmsteele
                        ... At one level, it is not very complex at all. It is a 365/366 day calendar. The first six months have a 31 day length, the next six 30 in a leap year. The
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 3, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, NGUYEN Adam <adam917@s...> wrote:
                          >I heard that the Persian calendar is one of the most complex ever,
                          > going out-of-sync by one day every so many million years!

                          At one level, it is not very complex at all. It is a 365/366 day
                          calendar. The first six months have a 31 day length, the next six 30
                          in a leap year. The last month is 29 days in non-leap year. The first
                          day of the year is the day of the spring equinox IF it occurs before
                          noon, Tehran time, otherwise, the next day. This makes it self-
                          correcting until the average length of the year decreases to <365
                          days. The only cumbersome part is depending on calculating exactly
                          the time of the equinox. They use a "best science" approach and all
                          known perturbation terms plus leap seconds need to be considered if
                          the equinox is close to noon. If it further from noon, simpler
                          approximations work.

                          These can be calculated some distance ahead. As the calculation is
                          cumbersome, people try to fit it with numerical series (the most
                          common is a 33 year cycle) but these breakdown over time (somebody
                          else has a 2820 year cycle). Here is a link to one approach:
                          http://www.projectpluto.com/calendar.htm#jalali

                          The fact that it only varies plus or minus one from Gregorian
                          (because leap years are intercalated differently) for a LONG time
                          says rigid rules work too. We are approaching a point where the
                          Gregorian calendar should really switch from a 400 year long cycle to
                          a 500 year. If the leap day in 2400 were deferred to 2500, we could
                          use that cycle to around the year 8000.
                        • piebaldconsult
                          Indeed, I understand that originally noon was nines (or was that nones ), it was nine hours after sunrise -- i.e. 15:00 (or so). ... undisputable fact,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 3, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Indeed, I understand that originally "noon" was "nines" (or was
                            that "nones"), it was nine hours after sunrise -- i.e. 15:00 (or so).

                            > * Calling it noon when the sun is overhead isn't an
                            undisputable fact,
                            > it's merely a social convention.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.