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Re: [ISO8601] Pure ISO 8601 or varied for popular formats

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  • hjwoudenberg@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/15/2003 9:13:25 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Thanks I will do my best to conform to your advice.
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 15, 2003
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      In a message dated 8/15/2003 9:13:25 PM Central Daylight Time, tex@... writes:

      I don't think the ISO community will complain unless you misrepresent formats
      that are close to 8601, but not defined in 8601, as 8601 conformant. It might
      help to warn your users that the 8601 format is best for data interchange and
      the non 8601 variations are (perhaps) better for readability.



      Thanks I will do my best to conform to your advice.
    • ali0917
      The human-readable numeric formats should be: 2000-06-14T23:59:59Z or 2000-06-14T19:59:59-04:00 2000-06-14 23:59:59 (UTC) or 2000-06-14 19:59:59 (UTC-04:00)
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
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        The human-readable numeric formats should be:

        2000-06-14T23:59:59Z or 2000-06-14T19:59:59-04:00
        2000-06-14 23:59:59 (UTC) or 2000-06-14 19:59:59 (UTC-04:00)

        The latter should be default and the former should be for the
        internal code of programs.

        The example with "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
        isn't a very good example as the month is in two places and can
        confuse a reader.. Something like "2003-08-13 (Wed) 18:00:00
        (UTC+01:00)" would work much better. The "1999/12/31 (Friday)
        23:59:59" format has been in use in China & Japan for a LONG time
        so, it may be a good alternative. Modernising it to "1999-12-31
        (Fri) 23:59:59" may be the best bet. For worded longhand dates in
        English, something like "Saturday, 1 January 2000" (used in the UK)
        or "2000 January 1 (Saturday)" (used in the Chinese, Hangul &
        Japanese languages for thousands of years and by astronomers in the
        form of "1999 Dec 31.ddd..." (decimal part of day) for a few
        centuries) would work well.

        I hope any of this helped...

        --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Tex Texin <tex@i...> wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > My suggestion would be to have at least a "pure ISO 8601" mode
        that conforms
        > exactly and then offer the forms that you think are more natural
        or popular as
        > options or alternatives so you satisfy both worlds.
        > I don't think the ISO community will complain unless you
        misrepresent formats
        > that are close to 8601, but not defined in 8601, as 8601
        conformant. It might
        > help to warn your users that the 8601 format is best for data
        interchange and
        > the non 8601 variations are (perhaps) better for readability.
        >
        > That's my 2 cents. But check with your (potential) user community
        if possible.
        >
        > hth
        > tex
        >
        > hjwoudenberg@a... wrote:
        > >
        > > In a message dated 8/13/2003 5:25:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
        HJWOUDENBERG
        > > writes:
        > > Should be with blank before time
        > >
        > > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13 18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
        > >
        > > Subject: To Tex Texin
        > > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:25:01 EDT
        > > From: HJWOUDENBERG@a...
        > >
        > > My date and time conversion for anywhere in the world to
        anywhere in the
        > > world is just about completed.
        > >
        > > I support the ISO to the letter, but would like you advice about
        some common
        > > practices
        > >
        > > The ISO to the letter requires the "T" as the designator for
        time:
        > >
        > > No zero suppression.
        > > No names of day or month
        > > Does do not permit truncation.
        > > Only permits reduced precision on time.
        > >
        > > It supports all combinations of date, time, fraction of
        time
        > > (hours,minutes,seconds[ fraction of days]),and Coordinate
        Universal Time
        > > offset and conversion for calendar dates, ordinal dates and week-
        dates.
        > > It does not support Time Intervals (As you have pointed
        out the
        > > problems).
        > >
        > > The general practices supports:
        > > 'That the "T" is replace with a blank.
        > > The name of the day and month can be prefixed to the date.
        > > The text abbreviation for the time zone may be suffixed
        after the
        > > offset.
        > >
        > > Tex, you know the ISO community. How much criticism can I
        expect? This
        > > general practices are the real world, how do you think they
        should be
        > > handled? Should I say these are not ISO dates? The market
        wants these
        > > features.
        > >
        > > Examples of the use of the function (.fr is ISO two letter code
        for France)
        > > to = ADT(.fr:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
        > > (;CEST is Central Eruopean Summer Time)
        > > to = ADT(;CET:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
        > >
        > > to= "2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00"
        > >
        > > to = ADT(*I&=.fr|L|!TZA:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
        > >
        > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------------------------------------------
        > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@X...
        > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
        >
        > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
        > Making e-Business Work Around the World
        > -------------------------------------------------------------
      • hjwoudenberg@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/1/2003 9:30:07 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Is this an opinion or do you have proof, experimented with the others. This has not been my
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
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          In a message dated 9/1/2003 9:30:07 PM Central Daylight Time, adam917@... writes:

          The example with "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13 18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
          isn't a very good example as the month is in two places and can
          confuse a reader..


          Is this an opinion or do you have proof, experimented with the others.  This has not been my experience.  Most people appreciate both in the heading of the reports, without the "T". My experience, they prefer both rather than either one of the other as you suggest. 

          Herman
        • Tex Texin
          Hi, I am not clear on what you are saying in the latter half of your mail. I agree that text names included with the date can be confusing. For some users they
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
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            Hi,

            I am not clear on what you are saying in the latter half of your mail.

            I agree that text names included with the date can be confusing.
            For some users they are reassuring however.

            When you say:

            > or "2000 January 1 (Saturday)" (used in the Chinese, Hangul &
            > Japanese languages for thousands of years

            I have to question this, since Gregorian calendar is relatively recent,
            adoption of English is even more recent, and lunar calendars were used going
            back millenia in China, but not so far back in Japan.

            Here is a page on Chinese calendar history:
            http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-chinese.html

            and for Japanese:
            http://www.ndl.go.jp/koyomi/e/history/02_index1.html

            Maybe you are referring to the date format, independent of the calendar in use?

            As for using English, it is acceptable in HK, and certainly is used in the
            other markets, but in general you will improve the marketability of your
            software if you use the native language.

            I would also recommend using the native characters for month, day and year as
            separators, as is the custom, where appropriate. For columns of dates or
            reports/screens where space is at a premium, using just the slash or hyphen
            separator characters is acceptable.

            However, this is cultural formating, not data interchange, and we are now far
            afield from 8601 which is the locus of this list.

            tex


            ali0917 wrote:
            >
            > The human-readable numeric formats should be:
            >
            > 2000-06-14T23:59:59Z or 2000-06-14T19:59:59-04:00
            > 2000-06-14 23:59:59 (UTC) or 2000-06-14 19:59:59 (UTC-04:00)
            >
            > The latter should be default and the former should be for the
            > internal code of programs.
            >
            > The example with "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
            > isn't a very good example as the month is in two places and can
            > confuse a reader.. Something like "2003-08-13 (Wed) 18:00:00
            > (UTC+01:00)" would work much better. The "1999/12/31 (Friday)
            > 23:59:59" format has been in use in China & Japan for a LONG time
            > so, it may be a good alternative. Modernising it to "1999-12-31
            > (Fri) 23:59:59" may be the best bet. For worded longhand dates in
            > English, something like "Saturday, 1 January 2000" (used in the UK)
            > or "2000 January 1 (Saturday)" (used in the Chinese, Hangul &
            > Japanese languages for thousands of years and by astronomers in the
            > form of "1999 Dec 31.ddd..." (decimal part of day) for a few
            > centuries) would work well.
            >
            > I hope any of this helped...
            >
            > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Tex Texin <tex@i...> wrote:
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > My suggestion would be to have at least a "pure ISO 8601" mode
            > that conforms
            > > exactly and then offer the forms that you think are more natural
            > or popular as
            > > options or alternatives so you satisfy both worlds.
            > > I don't think the ISO community will complain unless you
            > misrepresent formats
            > > that are close to 8601, but not defined in 8601, as 8601
            > conformant. It might
            > > help to warn your users that the 8601 format is best for data
            > interchange and
            > > the non 8601 variations are (perhaps) better for readability.
            > >
            > > That's my 2 cents. But check with your (potential) user community
            > if possible.
            > >
            > > hth
            > > tex
            > >
            > > hjwoudenberg@a... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > In a message dated 8/13/2003 5:25:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
            > HJWOUDENBERG
            > > > writes:
            > > > Should be with blank before time
            > > >
            > > > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13 18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
            > > >
            > > > Subject: To Tex Texin
            > > > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:25:01 EDT
            > > > From: HJWOUDENBERG@a...
            > > >
            > > > My date and time conversion for anywhere in the world to
            > anywhere in the
            > > > world is just about completed.
            > > >
            > > > I support the ISO to the letter, but would like you advice about
            > some common
            > > > practices
            > > >
            > > > The ISO to the letter requires the "T" as the designator for
            > time:
            > > >
            > > > No zero suppression.
            > > > No names of day or month
            > > > Does do not permit truncation.
            > > > Only permits reduced precision on time.
            > > >
            > > > It supports all combinations of date, time, fraction of
            > time
            > > > (hours,minutes,seconds[ fraction of days]),and Coordinate
            > Universal Time
            > > > offset and conversion for calendar dates, ordinal dates and week-
            > dates.
            > > > It does not support Time Intervals (As you have pointed
            > out the
            > > > problems).
            > > >
            > > > The general practices supports:
            > > > 'That the "T" is replace with a blank.
            > > > The name of the day and month can be prefixed to the date.
            > > > The text abbreviation for the time zone may be suffixed
            > after the
            > > > offset.
            > > >
            > > > Tex, you know the ISO community. How much criticism can I
            > expect? This
            > > > general practices are the real world, how do you think they
            > should be
            > > > handled? Should I say these are not ISO dates? The market
            > wants these
            > > > features.
            > > >
            > > > Examples of the use of the function (.fr is ISO two letter code
            > for France)
            > > > to = ADT(.fr:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
            > > > (;CEST is Central Eruopean Summer Time)
            > > > to = ADT(;CET:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
            > > >
            > > > to= "2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00"
            > > >
            > > > to = ADT(*I&=.fr|L|!TZA:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
            > > >
            > > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
            > >
            > > --
            > > -------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@X...
            > > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
            > >
            > > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
            > > Making e-Business Work Around the World
            > > -------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            --
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
            Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

            XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
            Making e-Business Work Around the World
            -------------------------------------------------------------
          • Adam NGUYEN
            I was referring to just the date format, not the actual calendar in use. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans have been using the year-month-day date order for a
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 2, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
                       I was referring to just the date format, not the actual calendar in use. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans have been using the year-month-day date order for a VERY LONG time. Just ask Justin JIH ( his site is at http://www.geocities.com/jusjih ). He'll tell you the same thing.

                       What I really wonder is how did the US all of a sudden just start using month-day-year order in their dates ("Sunday, January 9, 2000" & "01/09/2000" are examples of written dates. "Sunday, January the ninth, two thousand" & "Sunday, January ninth, two thousand" are examples of the speech used in the US). The US' official language is English, which has always used day-month-year in a written date order in English-speaking countries before the US somehow, "came up with", the month-day-year order. Where did they get this idea from? Maybe they always have written their dates in month-day order and when they needed to put the year in, they just slapped it on as something extra?

                       What's accepted in HK? A year-month-day longhand date in English like "2000 January 1 (Saturday)"?

              At 2003-09-01 23:53 (UTC -0400), you wrote:

              Hi,

              I am not clear on what you are saying in the latter half of your mail.

              I agree that text names included with the date can be confusing.
              For some users they are reassuring however.

              When you say:

              > or "2000 January 1 (Saturday)" (used in the Chinese, Hangul &
              > Japanese languages for thousands of years

              I have to question this, since Gregorian calendar is relatively recent,
              adoption of English is even more recent, and lunar calendars were used going
              back millenia in China, but not so far back in Japan.

              Here is a page on Chinese calendar history:
              http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-chinese.html

              and for Japanese:
              http://www.ndl.go.jp/koyomi/e/history/02_index1.html

              Maybe you are referring to the date format, independent of the calendar in use?

              As for using English, it is acceptable in HK, and certainly is used in the
              other markets, but in general you will improve the marketability of your
              software if you use the native language.

              I would also recommend using the native characters for month, day and year as
              separators, as is the custom, where appropriate. For columns of dates or
              reports/screens where space is at a premium, using just the slash or hyphen
              separator characters is acceptable.

              However, this is cultural formating, not data interchange, and we are now far
              afield from 8601 which is the locus of this list.

              tex


              ali0917 wrote:
              >
              > The human-readable numeric formats should be:
              >
              > 2000-06-14T23:59:59Z or 2000-06-14T19:59:59-04:00
              > 2000-06-14 23:59:59 (UTC) or 2000-06-14 19:59:59 (UTC-04:00)
              >
              > The latter should be default and the former should be for the
              > internal code of programs.
              >
              > The example with "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
              > isn't a very good example as the month is in two places and can
              > confuse a reader.. Something like "2003-08-13 (Wed) 18:00:00
              > (UTC+01:00)" would work much better. The "1999/12/31 (Friday)
              > 23:59:59" format has been in use in China & Japan for a LONG time
              > so, it may be a good alternative. Modernising it to "1999-12-31
              > (Fri) 23:59:59" may be the best bet. For worded longhand dates in
              > English, something like "Saturday, 1 January 2000" (used in the UK)
              > or "2000 January 1 (Saturday)" (used in the Chinese, Hangul &
              > Japanese languages for thousands of years and by astronomers in the
              > form of "1999 Dec 31.ddd..." (decimal part of day) for a few
              > centuries) would work well.
              >
              > I hope any of this helped...
              >
              > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Tex Texin <tex@i...> wrote:
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > My suggestion would be to have at least a "pure ISO 8601" mode
              > that conforms
              > > exactly and then offer the forms that you think are more natural
              > or popular as
              > > options or alternatives so you satisfy both worlds.
              > > I don't think the ISO community will complain unless you
              > misrepresent formats
              > > that are close to 8601, but not defined in 8601, as 8601
              > conformant. It might
              > > help to warn your users that the 8601 format is best for data
              > interchange and
              > > the non 8601 variations are (perhaps) better for readability.
              > >
              > > That's my 2 cents. But check with your (potential) user community
              > if possible.
              > >
              > > hth
              > > tex
              > >
              > > hjwoudenberg@a... wrote:
              > > >
              > > > In a message dated 8/13/2003 5:25:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > HJWOUDENBERG
              > > > writes:
              > > > Should be with blank before time
              > > >
              > > > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13 18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
              > > >
              > > > Subject: To Tex Texin
              > > > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:25:01 EDT
              > > > From: HJWOUDENBERG@a...
              > > >
              > > > My date and time conversion for anywhere in the world to
              > anywhere in the
              > > > world is just about completed.
              > > >
              > > > I support the ISO to the letter, but would like you advice about
              > some common
              > > > practices
              > > >
              > > > The ISO to the letter requires the "T" as the designator for
              > time:
              > > >
              > > >        No zero suppression.
              > > >        No names of day or month
              > > >        Does do not permit truncation.
              > > >        Only permits reduced precision on time.
              > > >
              > > >        It supports all combinations of date, time, fraction of
              > time
              > > > (hours,minutes,seconds[ fraction of days]),and Coordinate
              > Universal Time
              > > > offset and conversion for calendar dates, ordinal dates and week-
              > dates.
              > > >        It does not support Time Intervals (As you have pointed
              > out the
              > > > problems).
              > > >
              > > > The general practices supports:
              > > >        'That the "T" is replace with a blank.
              > > >        The name of the day and month can be prefixed to the date.
              > > >        The text abbreviation for the time zone may be suffixed
              > after the
              > > > offset.
              > > >
              > > > Tex, you know the ISO community.  How much criticism can I
              > expect?  This
              > > > general practices are the real world, how do you think they
              > should be
              > > > handled?  Should I say these are not ISO dates?  The market
              > wants these
              > > > features.
              > > >
              > > > Examples of the use of the function (.fr  is ISO two letter code
              > for France)
              > > >   to = ADT(.fr:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
              > > > (;CEST is Central Eruopean Summer Time)
              > > >   to = ADT(;CET:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
              > > >
              > > > to=  "2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00"
              > > >
              > > > to = ADT(*I&=.fr|L|!TZA:2003-08-13T12:00:00-05:00)
              > > >
              > > > to = "Wednesday, August 2003-08-13T18:00:00+01:00 CEST"
              > >
              > > --
              > > -------------------------------------------------------------
              > > Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@X...
              > > Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
              > >
              > > XenCraft                          http://www.XenCraft.com
              > > Making e-Business Work Around the World
              > > -------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

              --
              -------------------------------------------------------------
              Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@...
              Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                                      
              XenCraft                               http://www.XenCraft.com
              Making e-Business Work Around the World
              -------------------------------------------------------------

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            • Adam NGUYEN
              Day-month-year dates have been common in a lot of the world because it means something like the first day, of the ninth month, of the two-thousand third year,
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 3, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                         Day-month-year dates have been common in a lot of the world because it means something like "the first day, of the ninth month, of the two-thousand third year, of the Common Era (or ...of the year 2003)". What's up with this "An American reply from Asia."? Did you mean a reply that preferred an Asian date format or an American with an Asian surname? You might as well say "A reply from a person born, raised, and still lives in the US in UK English, preferring Asian date formats" LOL. I always have used metric for measurement but, over here in the US, people that I've spoen to in the past don't seem to understand. They're very ignorant over metric, YYYY-MM-DD dates, and 24-hour times. They can't see the reason for it because they tend to have such a closed-minded attitude.

                         Here in the US, the day starts at midnight (00:00:00) but, is often labeled "12:00 AM" or "12 midnight" because of the AM/PM system still in wide use here. Few things I wonder about:

                1. Is AM/PM still used in writing a time in China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, or the rest of Asia? I noticed that in my Region & Language setting in Windows XP, the "Vietnamese" default setting has a time with "SA" for AM and "CH" for PM. Are these wrong? I thought 24 hour was used in Vietnam.

                2. I thought that things would've changed very quickly after the Internet started being used as a regular information medium but, it looks like it hasn't, and now, there's more confusion than ever.

                At 2003-09-04 08:22 (UTC +0200), you wrote:

                        
                An American reply from Asia.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Adam NGUYEN
                To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: 2003 09  03 Wednesday 02:17
                Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Re: Pure ISO 8601 or varied for popular formats

                        I was referring to just the date format, not the actual calendar in use. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans have been using the year-month-day date order for a VERY LONG time. Just ask Justin JIH ( his site is at http://www.geocities.com/jusjih ). He'll tell you the same thing.

                         What I really wonder is how did the US all of a sudden just start using month-day-year order in their dates ("Sunday, January 9, 2000" & "01/09/2000" are examples of written dates. "Sunday, January the ninth, two thousand" & "Sunday, January ninth, two thousand" are examples of the speech used in the US). The US' official language is English, which has always used day-month-year in a written date order in English-speaking countries before the US somehow, "came up with", the month-day-year order. Where did they get this idea from? Maybe they always have written their dates in month-day order and when they needed to put the year in, they just slapped it on as something extra?
                         What's accepted in HK? A year-month-day longhand date in English like "2000 January 1 (Saturday)"?
                ==========================================================
                I have an educated guess as to why we Americans got stuck with such an ass backward system.  The first clue is the English language, which used to express dates based on Christian religious traditions of yore, and - by the nature of western European languages - using possessive mode.  First
                of April, in the Year of the Lord Seventeen Hundred and Sixty-nine.
                 
                In numbers,  1st of April, 1769 AD.  The revolutionary American governments wanted to break away from anything that was British, and switched the order around
                *.  July fourth, 1955.  The growing economic prowess and world leader ambitions would not allow the United States to give up its traditions, even when it meant falling behind Canada, Mexico and the rest of the world.  Hence the US is the only major industrialized nation that has made no effort to subscribe to the SI (Systeme Internationale),  the modernized metric system, although it has been a legal measurement system there for over a century.  The US also starts the week with the weekend, and the first hour of the day is 12, after midnight, instead of zero hour.  You go figure!
                 
                Hong Kong is still plugging the British system, but slowly the ISO 8601 system and SI are seeping in.  The cars are still driven on the left side of the highways, the flats are still sold by area of square feet.  Hong Kong has about 45 years to join the standards set by the Mainland Chinese.  However, economic considerations will force Hong Kong and Macao to modernize much sooner than that.
                *
                A similar madness is what the Taiwan government is cooking up by developing a system for Romanization of Chinese characters, one that is different from the decades-old Pin-yin Chinese system.  Their reason for being different: to spite Beijing. It is a blatant politicizing of a scientific issue.  Never mind the difficulties of those who are trying to tackle the Mandarin language and now have to learn two different methods of reading Chinese characters printed in western letters.
                BUDAI  A. E.  —  Xinzhu City  Taiwan    email:
                bandi@...
              • ali0917
                Well, it s possible to write and say a date out in numeric form in year-month-day format, as it has been done with ISO s year-week-day format. Does this sound
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 3, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, it's possible to write and say a date out in numeric form in
                  year-month-day format, as it has been done with ISO's year-week-day
                  format. Does this sound correct?: "Year 1999, Week 52, Day 6"

                  How about this?: "(Year) 2000 (two thousand), Month 01 (one), Day 01
                  (one)"?
                  And this?: "(Year) 2000 (two thousand), Day 001 (one)"
                  This?: "(Year) 2000, January 01 (one)"

                  Are they all correct or should something be changed? Are dates in
                  English commonly said in year-month-day format or day-month-year
                  format? If they are said in year-month-day, what is said? If it's
                  day-month-year, an example date in a sentence would be "Today is the
                  third of September, two thousand [and] three.", right? Something
                  else interesting to note is the Windows XP Regional settings
                  have "Wednesday, 3 September, 2003" as the long date and "3/9/2003"
                  (D/M/YYYY) as the short date, instead of YYYY-MM-DD as the short
                  date and something like "2003 September 3 (Wednesday)".

                  --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "Budai, Andrew" <bandi@m...> wrote:
                  > An American reply from Asia.
                  [...]
                  > I have an educated guess as to why we Americans got stuck with
                  such an ass backward system. The first clue is the English
                  language, which used to express dates based on Christian religious
                  traditions of yore, and - by the nature of western European
                  languages - using possessive mode. First of April, in the Year of
                  the Lord Seventeen Hundred and Sixty-nine.
                  >
                  > In numbers, 1st of April, 1769 AD. The revolutionary American
                  governments wanted to break away from anything that was British, and
                  switched the order around*. July fourth, 1955. The growing
                  economic prowess and world leader ambitions would not allow the
                  United States to give up its traditions, even when it meant falling
                  behind Canada, Mexico and the rest of the world. Hence the US is
                  the only major industrialized nation that has made no effort to
                  subscribe to the SI (Systeme Internationale), the modernized metric
                  system, although it has been a legal measurement system there for
                  over a century. The US also starts the week with the weekend, and
                  the first hour of the day is 12, after midnight, instead of zero
                  hour. You go figure!
                  >
                  > Hong Kong is still plugging the British system, but slowly the
                  ISO 8601 system and SI are seeping in. The cars are still driven on
                  the left side of the highways, the flats are still sold by area of
                  square feet. Hong Kong has about 45 years to join the standards set
                  by the Mainland Chinese. However, economic considerations will
                  force Hong Kong and Macao to modernize much sooner than that.
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  > *A similar madness is what the Taiwan government is cooking up
                  by developing a system for Romanization of Chinese characters, one
                  that is different from the decades-old Pin-yin Chinese system.
                  Their reason for being different: to spite Beijing. It is a blatant
                  politicizing of a scientific issue. Never mind the difficulties of
                  those who are trying to tackle the Mandarin language and now have to
                  learn two different methods of reading Chinese characters printed in
                  western letters.
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  > BUDAI A. E. — Xinzhu City Taiwan email: bandi@m...
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                • Budai, Andrew
                  An American reply from Asia. ... From: Adam NGUYEN To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2003 09 03 Wednesday 02:17 Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Re: Pure ISO 8601 or
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 3, 2003
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                    An American reply from Asia.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: 2003 09  03 Wednesday 02:17
                    Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Re: Pure ISO 8601 or varied for popular formats

                             I was referring to just the date format, not the actual calendar in use. The Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans have been using the year-month-day date order for a VERY LONG time. Just ask Justin JIH ( his site is at http://www.geocities.com/jusjih ). He'll tell you the same thing.

                             What I really wonder is how did the US all of a sudden just start using month-day-year order in their dates ("Sunday, January 9, 2000" & "01/09/2000" are examples of written dates. "Sunday, January the ninth, two thousand" & "Sunday, January ninth, two thousand" are examples of the speech used in the US). The US' official language is English, which has always used day-month-year in a written date order in English-speaking countries before the US somehow, "came up with", the month-day-year order. Where did they get this idea from? Maybe they always have written their dates in month-day order and when they needed to put the year in, they just slapped it on as something extra?

                             What's accepted in HK? A year-month-day longhand date in English like "2000 January 1 (Saturday)"?
                    ==========================================================
                    I have an educated guess as to why we Americans got stuck with such an ass backward system.  The first clue is the English language, which used to express dates based on Christian religious traditions of yore, and - by the nature of western European languages - using possessive mode.  First of April, in the Year of the Lord Seventeen Hundred and Sixty-nine.
                     
                    In numbers,  1st of April, 1769 AD.  The revolutionary American governments wanted to break away from anything that was British, and switched the order around*.  July fourth, 1955.  The growing economic prowess and world leader ambitions would not allow the United States to give up its traditions, even when it meant falling behind Canada, Mexico and the rest of the world.  Hence the US is the only major industrialized nation that has made no effort to subscribe to the SI (Systeme Internationale),  the modernized metric system, although it has been a legal measurement system there for over a century.  The US also starts the week with the weekend, and the first hour of the day is 12, after midnight, instead of zero hour.  You go figure!
                     
                    Hong Kong is still plugging the British system, but slowly the ISO 8601 system and SI are seeping in.  The cars are still driven on the left side of the highways, the flats are still sold by area of square feet.  Hong Kong has about 45 years to join the standards set by the Mainland Chinese.  However, economic considerations will force Hong Kong and Macao to modernize much sooner than that.

                    *A similar madness is what the Taiwan government is cooking up by developing a system for Romanization of Chinese characters, one that is different from the decades-old Pin-yin Chinese system.  Their reason for being different: to spite Beijing. It is a blatant politicizing of a scientific issue.  Never mind the difficulties of those who are trying to tackle the Mandarin language and now have to learn two different methods of reading Chinese characters printed in western letters.

                    BUDAI  A. E.  —  Xinzhu City  Taiwan    email: bandi@...
                     

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