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Re: [ISO8601] My new page: Numbers, Dates and Time (ISO 8601 included) (also new email)

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  • Tex Texin
    Justin, I have a page on Japanese Emperor dates: http://www.i18nguy.com/l10n/emperor-date.html But I disagree with your premise that there are situations where
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 1, 2003
      Justin,
      I have a page on Japanese Emperor dates:
      http://www.i18nguy.com/l10n/emperor-date.html


      But I disagree with your premise that there are situations where 8601 can't be
      used, having to do with language.
      You can always use 8601, you just need to let people know that it is 8601 or
      if they are non-technical or standards oriented, let them know the format.
      (e.g. "All dates on this page are yyyy-mm-dd.")

      jusjih wrote:
      >
      > While ISO 8601 is language-independent, it cannot replace dates or
      > times in any languages. I have created a new page "Numbers, Dates and
      > Time in English, French and Chinese" at
      > http://www.geocities.com/jusjih/num-iso8601.html that includes some
      > formats of ISO 8601.
      >
      > As some formats of ISO 8601, such as --MM, -W-D and --MM-DD, may not
      > be readily understandable by certain people, use them ONLY if the
      > other party knows what they mean. For example, Americans generally
      > understand --MM-DD, such as --06-01 for June 1, but Europeans might
      > still regard it as 6 January.
      ...
      >
      > Justin

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      Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
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    • Adam
      Do you plan to make a proposal for the ISO number standard that uses 123 456 789.012 345 and 123 456 789,012 345 for numbers which is the space ( ) as a
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 1, 2003
                 Do you plan to make a proposal for the ISO number standard that uses "123 456 789.012 345" and "123 456 789,012 345" for numbers which is the space ( ) as a thousands separator and either a comma (,) or a full stop (.) as a decimal sign? Are these the only number formats allowed? Are numbers WITHOUT thousands separators allowed? The reason why I ask this question is because just because you can do non-breaking spaces in word processing programs (how do you do this in OpenOffice.org 1.0.3.1?), you can't do them everywhere it's possible to type. In those places where you can't do non-breaking spaces, using regular spaces can result in problems with numbers that run onto the next line. If the number 10 500 runs onto another line, it may look like two separate numbers. In fact, to many people, that's what it will look like. Using no separator, this problem is less likely to happen.

                 Now, I been wondering about ISO's YYYY-DDD format. Did they choose between the 000--364 (or 365 on leap years) range and 001--365 (or 366 on leap years) range? I've found that starting at 000 is easier than 001 because you can do simple arithmetic for subtracting/adding days through year boundaries. Another reason is because even if days and years aren't used, if hours, minutes, or even seconds elapsed since the beginning of the year are used, when converted into days, hours, minutes, and seconds, the result's exactly right.

                 As far as the truncated ISO 8601 formats are concerned, I suggest never using them. They are a breeding ground for confusion. Use only full YYYY-MM-DD dates and times, in their extended form. This is especially true for times which show seconds (look at "020406". Is that a truncated date or time? This must be the reason for the T that comes right before the time. In my opinion, it isn't needed in complete representations like 1999-12-31 23:59:59 as the separators tell you what's a date and time).

                 For the seconds in French, wouldn't it go the same way you have it for minutes but, adding the seconds and the words for minutes and seconds in? Also, wouldn't a decimal part of a time be said the same way as a regular decimal number?

        At 2003-06-01 06:59 (UTC +0000), you wrote:

        While ISO 8601 is language-independent, it cannot replace dates or
        times in any languages. I have created a new page "Numbers, Dates and
        Time in English, French and Chinese" at
        http://www.geocities.com/jusjih/num-iso8601.html that includes some
        formats of ISO 8601.

        As some formats of ISO 8601, such as --MM, -W-D and --MM-DD, may not
        be readily understandable by certain people, use them ONLY if the
        other party knows what they mean. For example, Americans generally
        understand --MM-DD, such as --06-01 for June 1, but Europeans might
        still regard it as 6 January.

        Due to excessive spams, I have changed my email to accept posts from
        this group. Effecitve immediately, please STOP EMAILING to my old
        emails such as jusjih @ hotmail . com and jusjih @ yahoo . com . They
        have too many spams that I want to abandon them. Any messages to them
        may be left unread.

        If anyone wants to comment on my trilingual page of Numbers, Dates
        and Time, please reply to me directly (new email here). The page will
        expand when I have time and information.

        Justin


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      • g1smd_amsat_org
        ... [2003-06-01] This definition for number format has already been in the ISO 31 standard for the last 30-odd years. Cheers, Ian. [2003-06-01]
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 1, 2003
          --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Adam wrote:


          > Do you plan to make a proposal for the ISO number standard that
          > uses "123 456 789.012 345" and "123 456 789,012 345" for numbers
          > which is the space ( ) as a thousands separator and either a
          > comma (,) or a full stop (.) as a decimal sign? Are these the only
          > number formats allowed? Are numbers WITHOUT thousands separators
          > allowed?




          [2003-06-01]



          This definition for number format has already been in the ISO 31
          standard for the last 30-odd years.



          Cheers,

          Ian.



          [2003-06-01]
        • jusjih
          ... 8601 can t be ... is 8601 or ... format. ... You may have misunderstood. I did not say that there are situations where 8601 can t be used. YYYY-MM-DD need
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 1, 2003
            --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Tex Texin <tex@i...> wrote:
            ...
            > But I disagree with your premise that there are situations where
            8601 can't be
            > used, having to do with language.
            > You can always use 8601, you just need to let people know that it
            is 8601 or
            > if they are non-technical or standards oriented, let them know the
            format.
            > (e.g. "All dates on this page are yyyy-mm-dd.")

            You may have misunderstood. I did not say that there are situations
            where 8601 can't be used. YYYY-MM-DD need not be explained
            everywhere, but some reduced or truncated formats may not be easily
            understood. See 4.9 of ISO 8601 about MUTUAL AGREEMENT. Suppose I
            write these dates, how would you interprete them? (They ARE supported
            by ISO 8601.)

            01-02-03
            -01-02
            -01
            --02-03
            --02
            ---03

            Justin
          • Tex Texin
            I understood you. If you send me truncated dates, and don t tell me the format, then we don t have a mutual agreement.... My suggestion is to add somewhere,
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 1, 2003
              I understood you. If you send me truncated dates, and don't tell me the
              format, then we don't have a mutual agreement....

              My suggestion is to add somewhere, either alongside each date, or as a
              footnote on the page, the format is mm-dd, or whatever.

              But I agree with the person who wrote, why truncate at all. Just use the full
              format.

              However, there is no instance, where french, chinese or other language-based
              date formats must be used instead.
              Yours is a nice web page, it's useful to some people, hopefully not to anyone
              on this list! ;-)

              (Justin, just teasing. After all I have a Japanese date page. I am so ashamed.
              ;-) )

              tex

              jusjih wrote:
              >
              > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, Tex Texin <tex@i...> wrote:
              > ...
              > > But I disagree with your premise that there are situations where
              > 8601 can't be
              > > used, having to do with language.
              > > You can always use 8601, you just need to let people know that it
              > is 8601 or
              > > if they are non-technical or standards oriented, let them know the
              > format.
              > > (e.g. "All dates on this page are yyyy-mm-dd.")
              >
              > You may have misunderstood. I did not say that there are situations
              > where 8601 can't be used. YYYY-MM-DD need not be explained
              > everywhere, but some reduced or truncated formats may not be easily
              > understood. See 4.9 of ISO 8601 about MUTUAL AGREEMENT. Suppose I
              > write these dates, how would you interprete them? (They ARE supported
              > by ISO 8601.)
              >
              > 01-02-03
              > -01-02
              > -01
              > --02-03
              > --02
              > ---03
              >
              > Justin
              >
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              >
              >
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              --
              -------------------------------------------------------------
              Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
              Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

              XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
              Making e-Business Work Around the World
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