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Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

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  • BudaiEndreistvan
    ... From: Ed Davies To: Sent: 2003 01 07 21:00 Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew ... In
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 7, 2003
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ed Davies" <edavies@...>
      Sent: 2003 01 07 21:00
      Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

      > I'm glad Adam has given some background to his polls.  I was one
      > of those who couldn't see the
      point of them without it.
      >
      > Adam wrote:
      > > ...
      > > After all, someone told me that "standards are obsolete unless they are
      > > used by many people".
      > > ...
      >
      > Sort of
      like Gods?  Was it Goethe that came up with the theory that
      > Gods
      only exist as long a people believe in them?  :-)
      >
      > >
      ...
      > > ISO 8601: The "basic" forms of 19991231 and 235959, as well as
      the letter
      > > "T" that seperates date and time should ONLY be used in
      machines, as human
      > > readability becaomes harder with soemthing like
      this: 19991231T235959.
      > > ...
      >
      > Well, it's not quite
      as black and white as that.  It depends on how much
      > the data is
      intended for human use and how much for machine use.  There
      > are
      many encoded formats which are read by humans where the basic form
      > might
      sensibly be used.  For example, satellite orbits are often described
      > by so-called Two Line Element files containing entries like
      this:
      >
      > ISS
      > 1 25544U 98067A   03001.84840740
      +.00037865 +00000-0 +49230-3 0 05355
      > 2 25544 051.6352 135.7682 0004552
      349.5526 147.8977 15.58394430235090
      >
      > These are mostly used by
      prediction programs but the more experienced
      > users read a lot of
      information by eye from them.  All I know is that
      > this data was
      valid for 2003-01-01T20:21Z approx (03 is the year and 001
      > is the day
      and .84840740 is the fraction of the day) and that the
      > inclination of
      the orbit is 51.6352 degrees.  In this sort of
      > case use of ISO
      basic form would have been appropriate.  There are
      > lots of similar
      formats in aviation and meteorology and presumably
      > many other areas
      where the same compromise would apply.
      >
      > As Adam implies, though,
      you wouldn't use the basic form in data
      > which is intended for direct
      public display.
      >
      > > ...
      > > I love 24 hour times and
      I think they should be used over 12 hour times.
      > > ...
      >
      > Well, at least in the morning.  That IS a joke!
      >
      > > ...
      > > as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to
      time/date, I use a double
      > > hyphen (--), like this:
      1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.
      > >
                    In Taiwan and Mainland China, this is solved by using tildes:
                    Monday ~ Friday 08:30 ~ 14:15.    There are several fonts on my                               Microsoft computer where the -- double hyphen runs together into —.
       
      >
      > I'm not sure if here
      you are talking about what you used to do or
      > what you do now but be
      aware that:
      >
      > 1. There are some obscure cases in 8601 where
      double hyphen can appear.
      >
      > 2. The 8601 separator for this case
      is solidus (slash).
      >
      > This is not, as you say, file name friendly
      for either Microsoft or
      > Unix like systems or for URLs.  It might be
      better to use a totally
      > different character to separate from and to
      date/times in file names. 
      > Tilde (~) or underscore
      perhaps.
      >
      > Some characters it might be tempting to use but which
      are best
      > avoided if there is any chance the name will be used in a URI
      > would include hash*, percent,
      ampersand, plus, colon, dollar,
      > vertical bar and caret as they can only
      be represented using
      > dollar hex hex style escape sequences which make
      them less human
      > readable.
      size=2>

              * the word hash sent me to my handy-dandy Longman dictionary for a
                  meaning, but I failed to come across this word as a writing symbol.   
                  My knowledge of press-technical vocabulary is rather shallow,
                  can you enlighten me about this? 
      > >
      ...
      > > I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but,
      > > ...
      >
      > Well, in the UK 24 hour times are very
      commonly written and everybody
      > understands them.  Things like TV
      schedules and train timetables are
      > usually written in 24 hour
      format.  On the other hand, they're not
      > spoken much so 20:00 is
      usually pronounced "eight o'clock".  (Bit
      > like saying "two b' four"
      but writing 25.4mm x 50.8mm :-).
       
              The same situation exists in the Mandarin and Taiwanese languages.
              Write 16:00 ~ 17:00, say 4 ~ 5 PM.    (Thankfully, midday is called
              twelve noon, not 12:00 PM as Microsoft would want us to believe.)
              Traditional abbreviations and popular shortcuts may remain in use for                         centuries without doing any harm to SI (the modernized metric system).
              Perhaps, even after all the Canadian lumber will be cut to 120 x 240 mm                     modules, we can still call them two b' fours.    The dried 2x4's have long
              been much smaller than 2 inches by 4 inches: more like 1.6 x 3.5 in.   
              Yet, we stick with the simple expression. 
       
      > > ...
      > > If I see any of ISO's ALTERNATIVE
      formats being used by the general
      > > public, it would probably be
      YYYY-DDD (1999-365), because all holidays
      > > fall on the same dates
      and there are still 365 days in a common year.
      > > ...
      >
      > I assume you mean "see" in the sense of "envisage" rather than
      "observe"
      > here.  I think the day-in-year and week-in-year formats
      are intended
      > for things like scheduling and accounting applications,
      not as some sort
      > of plot to get rid of months in day-to-day
      thinking.  There are probably
      > as many applications for the use of
      week number in year as day in year.
       
              A little anecdotal information here is an attempt half a century or so ago
              in the United States.    Divide the year into 13 months, each month  be
              28 days long.    The practical benefit: every day of the week will fall on
              the same preset numbers.    13 x 28 = 364.    The one extra day can be
              used for anything you like.    In leap years, the extra days will double.
              The proposal never got off the ground.    Traditions don't die easily.   
      >
      >
      >
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    • Adam
      A hash is another name for the number sign or pound sign (US calls it pound, UK calls it hash). It looks like this: # I have no idea why the US calls it
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 7, 2003
        A "hash" is another name for the "number sign" or "pound sign" (US calls it pound, UK calls it hash). It looks like this: #
        I have no idea why the US calls it the "pound sign" because it is NOT used in weights. "lb" is used for those pounds.

        At 2003-01-07 (Tuesday) 22:49 +0800, you wrote:

         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ed Davies" <edavies@...>
        To: <ISO8601@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: 2003 01 07 21:00
        Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

        > I'm glad Adam has given some background to his polls.  I was one
        > of those who couldn't see the point of them without it.
        >
        > Adam wrote:
        > > ...
        > > After all, someone told me that "standards are obsolete unless they are
        > > used by many people".
        > > ...
        >
        > Sort of like Gods?  Was it Goethe that came up with the theory that
        > Gods only exist as long a people believe in them?  :-)
        >
        > > ...
        > > ISO 8601: The "basic" forms of 19991231 and 235959, as well as the letter
        > > "T" that seperates date and time should ONLY be used in machines, as human
        > > readability becaomes harder with soemthing like this: 19991231T235959.
        > > ...
        >
        > Well, it's not quite as black and white as that.  It depends on how much
        > the data is intended for human use and how much for machine use.  There
        > are many encoded formats which are read by humans where the basic form
        > might sensibly be used.  For example, satellite orbits are often described
        > by so-called Two Line Element files containing entries like this:
        >
        > ISS
        > 1 25544U 98067A   03001.84840740 +.00037865 +00000-0 +49230-3 0 05355
        > 2 25544 051.6352 135.7682 0004552 349.5526 147.8977 15.58394430235090
        >
        > These are mostly used by prediction programs but the more experienced
        > users read a lot of information by eye from them.  All I know is that
        > this data was valid for 2003-01-01T20:21Z approx (03 is the year and 001
        > is the day and .84840740 is the fraction of the day) and that the
        > inclination of the orbit is 51.6352 degrees.  In this sort of
        > case use of ISO basic form would have been appropriate.  There are
        > lots of similar formats in aviation and meteorology and presumably
        > many other areas where the same compromise would apply.
        >
        > As Adam implies, though, you wouldn't use the basic form in data
        > which is intended for direct public display.
        >
        > > ...
        > > I love 24 hour times and I think they should be used over 12 hour times.
        > > ...
        >
        > Well, at least in the morning.  That IS a joke!
        >
        > > ...
        > > as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to time/date, I use a double
        > > hyphen (--), like this: 1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.
        > >

                      In Taiwan and Mainland China, this is solved by using tildes:
                      Monday ~ Friday 08:30 ~ 14:15.    There are several fonts on my                               Microsoft computer where the -- double hyphen runs together into .
         
        >
        > I'm not sure if here you are talking about what you used to do or
        > what you do now but be aware that:
        >
        > 1. There are some obscure cases in 8601 where double hyphen can appear.
        >
        > 2. The 8601 separator for this case is solidus (slash).
        >
        > This is not, as you say, file name friendly for either Microsoft or
        > Unix like systems or for URLs.  It might be better to use a totally
        > different character to separate from and to date/times in file names. 
        > Tilde (~) or underscore perhaps.
        >
        > Some characters it might be tempting to use but which are best
        > avoided if there is any chance the name will be used in a URI
        > would include
        hash*, percent, ampersand, plus, colon, dollar,
        > vertical bar and caret as they can only be represented using
        > dollar hex hex style escape sequences which make them less human
        > readable.


               
        * the word hash sent me to my handy-dandy Longman dictionary for a
                    meaning, but I failed to come across this word as a writing symbol.   
                    My knowledge of press-technical vocabulary is rather shallow,
                    can you enlighten me about this?
        > > ...
        > > I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but,
        > > ...
        >
        > Well, in the UK 24 hour times are very commonly written and everybody
        > understands them.  Things like TV schedules and train timetables are
        > usually written in 24 hour format.  On the other hand, they're not
        > spoken much so 20:00 is usually pronounced "eight o'clock".  (Bit
        > like saying "two b' four" but writing 25.4mm x 50.8mm :-).

         
                The same situation exists in the Mandarin and Taiwanese languages.
                Write 16:00 ~ 17:00, say 4 ~ 5 PM.    (Thankfully, midday is called
                twelve noon, not 12:00 PM as Microsoft would want us to believe.)
                Traditional abbreviations and popular shortcuts may remain in use for                         centuries without doing any harm to SI (the modernized metric system).
                Perhaps, even after all the Canadian lumber will be cut to 120 x 240 mm                     modules, we can still call them two b' fours.    The dried 2x4's have long
                been much smaller than 2 inches by 4 inches: more like 1.6 x 3.5 in.   
                Yet, we stick with the simple expression.
         
        > > ...
        > > If I see any of ISO's ALTERNATIVE formats being used by the general
        > > public, it would probably be YYYY-DDD (1999-365), because all holidays
        > > fall on the same dates and there are still 365 days in a common year.
        > > ...
        >
        > I assume you mean "see" in the sense of "envisage" rather than "observe"
        > here.  I think the day-in-year and week-in-year formats are intended
        > for things like scheduling and accounting applications, not as some sort
        > of plot to get rid of months in day-to-day thinking.  There are probably
        > as many applications for the use of week number in year as day in year.
         
               
        A little anecdotal information here is an attempt half a century or so ago
              
        in the United States.    Divide the year into 13 months, each month  be
                28 days long.    The practical benefit: every day of the week will fall on
                the same preset numbers.    13 x 28 = 364.    The one extra day can be
                used for anything you like.    In leap years, the extra days will double.
                The proposal never got off the ground.    Traditions don't die easily.   
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
        > Flexible Keyboard is the ideal accessory for PDA users that are on the move.
        > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dCBVZC/WnCFAA/xGHJAA/1U_rlB/TM

        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
        >

        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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      • BudaiEndreistvan
        ... From: Adam To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2003 01 08 02:13 Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew A hash is another name for the number
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 7, 2003
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Adam
          Sent: 2003 01 08 02:13
          Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

          A "hash" is another name for the "number sign" or "pound sign" (US calls it pound, UK calls it hash). It looks like this: #
          I have no idea why the US calls it the "pound sign" because it is NOT used in weights. "lb" is used for those pounds.

          Thanks for this tidbit of info, Longman should have had it as the UK version of the pound sign.    In America, it is considered a bit old fashioned, but still used by farmers and fishers as pounds of.    I.e.:    Get 2# flour, 3# corn and 10# pork meat.   the Farmers' Almanac and other traditional sources will use it in print, others - like grandma in the family - only on paper with a pencil.   
           
          Another observation: Opponents of the metrication in Canada in the past broguth up the fact that traditional units are one- or two-syllable words, easy to pronounce and remember, like inch, pound, pint; gallon, mile, yard (even for cubic yard).   
           
          However, the living langauge developed its own variants of simplified terms.    Today, a Canadian supermarket checker calls out on the intercom:
          "Price check on 10 key gee of Robin Hood flour", or "two-fifty grams of peanuts",  "500 mil [mL] of Dairyland sour cream" etc.   
          A morning traffic reporter will say that the traffic is slowed to about thirty clicks [30 km/h] on such and such highway.   
           
          The language can simplify itself by the abbreviations invented by its users.    Most other countries, like Australia and South Africa, have dealt with this in a natural and easy way — only the US finds reasons to cling to the past forever.
           
          B., Andrew
        • Han Maenen
          We too write 20:00 or 21:00 hours and say 8 or 9 o clock. We never use the AM/PM symbols here. It is 12 noon , or I ll see you this afternoon at three , Do
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 7, 2003
            We too write 20:00 or 21:00 hours and say 8 or 9 o'clock. We never use the AM/PM symbols here. It is "12 noon", or " I'll see you this afternoon at three", "Do you like to go to the pictures at eight to-night?",  all in Dutch of course. But a 2 by 4 (in fact this is a 1 by 2) would never be written as 25.4 by 50.8, but as 25 by 50 in metric.
            Metric uses rounded off values, just like Imperial does.
            Adobe Acrobat is one program that uses stupid metric values like 209.9 mm. Maybe they try to discredit the metric system by doing so, trying to make it look stupid and cumbersome. 209.9 mm is nonsense, in fact it is 210 mm, the width of A4 paper. Anti-metric groups like the British Weights and Measures Association (BWMA), Inch Perfect, Freedom 2 Measure (F2M) and Americans for Customary Weights and Measures (ACWM) use bizarre metric values like 209.9 mm which are never used in metric countries, in their propaganda.
            We call a folding wooden or iron measuring stick a 'duimstok', in English 'inch stick', but most of them are graduated in metric only. As long as there are no inches on an inch stick, I have no objection against this name. I have an inch-less 'inch stick'. 'Duim' is the Dutch word for thumb and for inch.
             
            Han Maenen
            The Netherlands
            Member of USMA Metric forum
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, 2003-01-07 15:49
            Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ed Davies" <edavies@...>
            Sent: 2003 01 07 21:00
            Subject: Re: [ISO8601] More comments from B., Andrew

            <snip>

            > > I love 24 hour times and I think they should be used over 12 hour times. 
            >
            > Well, at least in the morning.  That IS a joke!
            > > ...
            > > as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to time/date, I use a double
            > > hyphen (--), like this: 1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.
            > >
            In Taiwan and Mainland China, this is solved by using tildes: Monday ~ Friday 08:30 ~ 14:15. There are several fonts on my Microsoft computer where the -- double hyphen runs together into .
             
            <snip>
             
            > > I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but,
            > > ...
            >
            > Well, in the UK 24 hour times are very commonly written and everybody
            > understands them.  Things like TV schedules and train timetables are
            > usually written in 24 hour format.  On the other hand, they're not
            > spoken much so 20:00 is usually pronounced "eight o'clock".  (Bit
            > like saying "two b' four" but writing 25.4mm x 50.8mm :-).
             
                    The same situation exists in the Mandarin and Taiwanese languages.
                    Write 16:00 ~ 17:00, say 4 ~ 5 PM.    (Thankfully, midday is called
                    twelve noon, not 12:00 PM as Microsoft would want us to believe.)
                    Traditional abbreviations and popular shortcuts may remain in use for centuries without doing any harm to SI (the modernized metric system). Perhaps, even after all the Canadian lumber will be cut to 120 x 240 mm modules, we can still call them two b' fours. The dried 2x4's have long been much smaller than 2 inches by 4 inches: more like 1.6 x 3.5 in. Yet, we stick with the simple expression. 

            <snip>
             
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