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Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601

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  • BudaiEndreistvan
    ... From: Adam To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com Sent: 2003 01 07 14:01 Subject: Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601 Fred BONE and everyone else, I m the one who
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 7, 2003
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adam
      Sent: 2003 01 07 14:01
      Subject: Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601

      Fred BONE and everyone else, I'm the one who created all of the polls except for the "what is 02.03.04" or whatever. I'm sorry if I annoyed you but, my opinion is the same as Mr. BONE's how can agreements be made without finding out what PEOPLE want? After all, someone told me that "standards are obsolete unless they are used by many people". This is how I do a numerical date: 1999-12-31. This is how a do a date in words: "Friday, 31 December 1999". A longer version is: "Friday, the 31st day of December in the year 1999". In my opinion, I think the YEAR-WEEK-DAY system isn't good for every day use because it has the same problems our present calendar has: extra weeks, as opposed to an extra day every 4 years (leap year), as well as century years that are divisable by 400. My opinion on ISO 8601: The "basic" forms of 19991231 and 235959, as well as the letter "T" that seperates date and time should ONLY be used in machines, as human readability becaomes harder with soemthing like this: 19991231T235959. Many people don't even know the 24 hour time format, LET ALONE that "basic" format. Now, the following are meant for human readability:

      1999-12-31 23:59:59
      1999-W52-7 23:59:59
      1999-365 23:59:59

      I love 24 hour times and I think they should be used over 12 hour times. After all, most of the world uses 24 hour so, why not English-speaking countries? Now with the dates: YYYY-MM-DD is the best numerical format because it sorts chronologically and is the same way times are: BIGGEST VALUE FIRST. as far as the hyphen (-) is conerned, I never knew it's benefit until I got a PC on 2001-09-16 and started getting into downloading Electronic music live bootlegs/radio show recordings. An example of one of my file names is:

      Paul van Dyk - 2000-04-30 - Live at Mayday.mp3

      Before this, I used to use a solidus as my seperator and had NO idea that YYYY-MM-DD was the int'l standard until April 2002. I just preferred year/month/day over other orders because of confusion of the US-style MM/DD/YYYY and the DD/MM/YYYY style. as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to time/date, I use a double hyphen (--), like this: 1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.

      People outside the US who use 24 hour times, how do you SAY them? I'm from the US and over here, if they see a 24 hour time like 16:00, they think "sixteen hundred hours", like the way the military does it. In my opinion, that's a really dumb way of saying a time because it's really "sixteen hours". I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but, what about in places where it's standard like in Germany, The Netherlands, Russia, France, etc.? In "word" dates, I think "Friday, 31 December 1999" should be standard for the English language because it's said the exact way as it means: Friday, the thirty-first day of December in the year 1999.
      Does anyone know why does the US uses "Friday, December 31, 1999"? That's a VERY illogical order.

      If I see any of ISO's ALTERNATIVE formats being used by the general public, it would probably be YYYY-DDD (1999-365), because all holidays fall on the same dates and there are still 365 days in a common year. The only difference is that, on leap years, New Year's Eve is the "extra day" (2004-366). I'd prefer this format because there's no tradition in it and it shows that the world that we live in now is completely different from the world many years ago. Plus, if YYYY-DDD were used, there would be no confusion of the order of the numerals, because the year would always be 4 digits long and the day would always be 3 digits long.


      At 2003-01-07 (Tuesday) 09:15 +0800, you wrote:


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Fred Bone" <fred.bone@...>
      To: <ISO8601@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: 2003 01 07 00:34
      Subject: Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601


      > Tex Texin said:
      >
      > > Thanks Fred. Perhaps then, the author can make a single poll with
      > > multiple questions rather than multiple single question polls.
      > > tex
      > >
      >
      > Not the way yahoogroups polls are set up. One poll = one question. To
      > which there may be up to 25 preset answers.
      >
      > It seems that one person created the first one, and someone else the
      > other four, perhaps upon noticing the first.
      >
      > Comments from B., Andrew:    Someone questioned the sanity of the poll.
      I feel that it is not a bad idea.    Why not find out how those of us
      professionals who see the purpose of the standard feel?    Even among people
      who think that a uniform system of date and time is necessary, there is no
      agreement.    So, how could we expect the rest of the world, most of whom
      don't give a hoot, to make a radical change in their traditions?
      I think it's OK to discuss, ponder, and have such e-brainstorming sessions.
      After all the dust is settled, we should all adhere to the original ISO
      8601, both in letter and spirit.

      Xinzhu City, Taiwan                   2003-01-07 Tu  19:10
       
      Another opinion from B., Andrew.
       
      I believe it was Paul van Dyk who said that the big obstacle to using  modernized form of dates and times is tradition, mainly in the US.   
      I could add one more: the information available to both teachers and students in the United States is erratic, sporadic, and sometimes not available at all.    No single government organ takes up the issue of uniform standards taught in every state, applied to government offices, like the U,S, Postal Service, or even the General Accounting Office.
      As one who was educated in the united States but traveled around the world, I find it easy to accept the logical system over the traditional one.
       
      Other English language territories, to my knowledge, aren't quite so baffled by YYYY-MM-DD and the 24-hour time system, although in spoken word, it is still in its infancy.    The UK and continental Europe seem
      to be comfortable with airport announcements in English, like
      Flight XYZ 345 is boarding at 18:30 from gate 78.    When it is on the hour, it is simply at eighteen hour, or eitheen hours.    Singular would
      bring it more in line with other European languages, like French, Hungarian or German.
       
      When listening to BBC, the announcement of time is Twenty-two hour GMT.   To say twenty-two hundred is a relic from the past, and has no value, as simply there are no hundreds of hours, only twenty three hours and fifty-nine minutes in common parlance, before it turns to a new day and starts with zero hour zero minute, or simply midnight.
       
      An area not covered by the standard, but one in need of some attention is the order of the days of the week.    Some of my American desk calendars picked up the European style:   Monday ~ Sunday order, but the majority is still using the weekend to start the week: Sunday ~ Saturday.    It's in the language: Weekend = Sunday, so why should it be the beginning?    To me, it's like starting the year with December, or make twelve o'clock the first hour of a day.   
       
      As an engineer as well as a language teacher, I wish to receive some input on this.
       
      BUDAI, Andrew




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    • Adam
      This is how I USED to to a from:to date on papers, etc.: 2000/01/01-2001/06/14 Now, since the ISO 8601 standard is to use a solidus (/) in place of where I
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 7, 2003
        This is how I USED to to a from:to date on papers, etc.:
        2000/01/01-2001/06/14

        Now, since the ISO 8601 standard is to use a solidus (/) in place of where I have a hyphen at, I now do this, because of filenames:
        2002-06-01--2003-06-14

        I understand what you mean about the tilde (~) being used in place of a double hyphen (--). It makes sense if only one character was allowed for the seperation of a date or time. For human readability, the tilde (~) is fine for the seperator, like as in a birth:death date or an event stanting and ending time. Example:
        1904-06-30~2002-12-04 for the the birth:death and 18:00~23:30 for an event beginning/ending time.

        Tildes (~) can sometimes, depending on the font they are written in, appear on the top of the line. It looks a bit "off" when comparing it to a regular hyphen. A double hyphen is the closest you can get to what looks normal.

        Another reason why I don't use a solidus (/) in writing is because people see that as strange and they may confuse it with 2 seperate dates or times. 18:00/23:30 look 18:00 AND 23:30 instead of 18:00 TO 23:30 to the average reader who knows nothing about ISO 8601. That's why I use a double hyphen (--).


        At 2003-01-07 (Tuesday) 13:00 +0000, you wrote:

        I'm glad Adam has given some background to his polls.  I was one
        of those who couldn't see the point of them without it.

        Adam wrote:
        > ...
        > After all, someone told me that "standards are obsolete unless they are
        > used by many people".
        > ...

        Sort of like Gods?  Was it Goethe that came up with the theory that
        Gods only exist as long a people believe in them?  :-)

        > ...
        > ISO 8601: The "basic" forms of 19991231 and 235959, as well as the letter
        > "T" that seperates date and time should ONLY be used in machines, as human
        > readability becaomes harder with soemthing like this: 19991231T235959.
        > ...

        Well, it's not quite as black and white as that.  It depends on how much
        the data is intended for human use and how much for machine use.  There
        are many encoded formats which are read by humans where the basic form
        might sensibly be used.  For example, satellite orbits are often described
        by so-called Two Line Element files containing entries like this:

        ISS
        1 25544U 98067A   03001.84840740 +.00037865 +00000-0 +49230-3 0 05355
        2 25544 051.6352 135.7682 0004552 349.5526 147.8977 15.58394430235090

        These are mostly used by prediction programs but the more experienced
        users read a lot of information by eye from them.  All I know is that
        this data was valid for 2003-01-01T20:21Z approx (03 is the year and 001
        is the day and .84840740 is the fraction of the day) and that the
        inclination of the orbit is 51.6352 degrees.  In this sort of
        case use of ISO basic form would have been appropriate.  There are
        lots of similar formats in aviation and meteorology and presumably
        many other areas where the same compromise would apply.

        As Adam implies, though, you wouldn't use the basic form in data
        which is intended for direct public display.

        > ...
        > I love 24 hour times and I think they should be used over 12 hour times.
        > ...

        Well, at least in the morning.  That IS a joke!

        > ...
        > as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to time/date, I use a double
        > hyphen (--), like this: 1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.
        > ...

        I'm not sure if here you are talking about what you used to do or
        what you do now but be aware that:

        1. There are some obscure cases in 8601 where double hyphen can appear.

        2. The 8601 separator for this case is solidus (slash).

        This is not, as you say, file name friendly for either Microsoft or
        Unix like systems or for URLs.  It might be better to use a totally
        different character to separate from and to date/times in file names. 
        Tilde (~) or underscore perhaps.

        Some characters it might be tempting to use but which are best
        avoided if there is any chance the name will be used in a URI
        would include hash, percent, ampersand, plus, colon, dollar,
        vertical bar and caret as they can only be represented using
        dollar hex hex style escape sequences which make them less human
        readable.

        > ...
        > I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but,
        > ...

        Well, in the UK 24 hour times are very commonly written and everybody
        understands them.  Things like TV schedules and train timetables are
        usually written in 24 hour format.  On the other hand, they're not
        spoken much so 20:00 is usually pronounced "eight o'clock".  (Bit
        like saying "two b' four" but writing 25.4mm x 50.8mm :-).

        > ...
        > If I see any of ISO's ALTERNATIVE formats being used by the general
        > public, it would probably be YYYY-DDD (1999-365), because all holidays
        > fall on the same dates and there are still 365 days in a common year.
        > ...

        I assume you mean "see" in the sense of "envisage" rather than "observe"
        here.  I think the day-in-year and week-in-year formats are intended
        for things like scheduling and accounting applications, not as some sort
        of plot to get rid of months in day-to-day thinking.  There are probably
        as many applications for the use of week number in year as day in year.


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      • Adam
        As far as the order of the days of the week are concerned, I start my week on MONDAY, not Sunday like the US calendars are. Where can I get calendars that
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 7, 2003
                   As far as the order of the days of the week are concerned, I start my week on MONDAY, not Sunday like the US calendars are. Where can I get calendars that start on Monday in the US? I'm looking for some. I always wondered why the US starts their weeks on Sunday instead of Monday.

                   Now the Paul van Dyk that I was talking is an Electronic music DJ from Germany. Go to http://www.paulvandyk.de/ for a list of all of his albums, live bootlegs, singles, and other information about him.

                   As far as spoken English language times are concerned, "22 hours" (plural) makes more sense because it's 22 hours past midnight or since the beginning of the day. At 01:00, "one hour" makes sense here, because it's 1 hour past midnight. At 00:30, I say "30 minutes past midnight". At 00:00, I saw "midnight". If this is combined with a date, I might say "it's midnight in the morning of the first of February, two-thousand three". Now, I know that in German, they say 22 Uhr (hour) and in Dutch, they say 22 Uur. How about French and Spanish? How about in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean?

          At 2003-01-07 (Tuesday) 21:52 +0800, you wrote:

           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Adam
          To: ISO8601@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 2003 01 07 14:01
          Subject: Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601

          Fred BONE and everyone else, I'm the one who created all of the polls except for the "what is 02.03.04" or whatever. I'm sorry if I annoyed you but, my opinion is the same as Mr. BONE's how can agreements be made without finding out what PEOPLE want? After all, someone told me that "standards are obsolete unless they are used by many people". This is how I do a numerical date: 1999-12-31. This is how a do a date in words: "Friday, 31 December 1999". A longer version is: "Friday, the 31st day of December in the year 1999". In my opinion, I think the YEAR-WEEK-DAY system isn't good for every day use because it has the same problems our present calendar has: extra weeks, as opposed to an extra day every 4 years (leap year), as well as century years that are divisable by 400. My opinion on ISO 8601: The "basic" forms of 19991231 and 235959, as well as the letter "T" that seperates date and time should ONLY be used in machines, as human readability becaomes harder with soemthing like this: 19991231T235959. Many people don't even know the 24 hour time format, LET ALONE that "basic" format. Now, the following are meant for human readability:

          1999-12-31 23:59:59
          1999-W52-7 23:59:59
          1999-365 23:59:59

          I love 24 hour times and I think they should be used over 12 hour times. After all, most of the world uses 24 hour so, why not English-speaking countries? Now with the dates: YYYY-MM-DD is the best numerical format because it sorts chronologically and is the same way times are: BIGGEST VALUE FIRST. as far as the hyphen (-) is conerned, I never knew it's benefit until I got a PC on 2001-09-16 and started getting into downloading Electronic music live bootlegs/radio show recordings. An example of one of my file names is:

          Paul van Dyk - 2000-04-30 - Live at Mayday.mp3

          Before this, I used to use a solidus as my seperator and had NO idea that YYYY-MM-DD was the int'l standard until April 2002. I just preferred year/month/day over other orders because of confusion of the US-style MM/DD/YYYY and the DD/MM/YYYY style. as far is which is preferred seperator for the from:to time/date, I use a double hyphen (--), like this: 1999-12-28--2000-01-02 or 16:00--22:00.

          People outside the US who use 24 hour times, how do you SAY them? I'm from the US and over here, if they see a 24 hour time like 16:00, they think "sixteen hundred hours", like the way the military does it. In my opinion, that's a really dumb way of saying a time because it's really "sixteen hours". I know that in the UK, 24 hour times aren't used much but, what about in places where it's standard like in Germany, The Netherlands, Russia, France, etc.? In "word" dates, I think "Friday, 31 December 1999" should be standard for the English language because it's said the exact way as it means: Friday, the thirty-first day of December in the year 1999.
          Does anyone know why does the US uses "Friday, December 31, 1999"? That's a VERY illogical order.

          If I see any of ISO's ALTERNATIVE formats being used by the general public, it would probably be YYYY-DDD (1999-365), because all holidays fall on the same dates and there are still 365 days in a common year. The only difference is that, on leap years, New Year's Eve is the "extra day" (2004-366). I'd prefer this format because there's no tradition in it and it shows that the world that we live in now is completely different from the world many years ago. Plus, if YYYY-DDD were used, there would be no confusion of the order of the numerals, because the year would always be 4 digits long and the day would always be 3 digits long.



          At 2003-01-07 (Tuesday) 09:15 +0800, you wrote:



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Fred Bone" <fred.bone@...>
          To: <ISO8601@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: 2003 01 07 00:34
          Subject: Re: [ISO8601] New poll for ISO8601



          > Tex Texin said:
          >
          > > Thanks Fred. Perhaps then, the author can make a single poll with
          > > multiple questions rather than multiple single question polls.
          > > tex
          > >
          >
          > Not the way yahoogroups polls are set up. One poll = one question. To
          > which there may be up to 25 preset answers.
          >
          > It seems that one person created the first one, and someone else the
          > other four, perhaps upon noticing the first.
          >
          > Comments from B., Andrew:    Someone questioned the sanity of the poll.
          I feel that it is not a bad idea.    Why not find out how those of us
          professionals who see the purpose of the standard feel?    Even among people
          who think that a uniform system of date and time is necessary, there is no
          agreement.    So, how could we expect the rest of the world, most of whom
          don't give a hoot, to make a radical change in their traditions?
          I think it's OK to discuss, ponder, and have such e-brainstorming sessions.
          After all the dust is settled, we should all adhere to the original ISO
          8601, both in letter and spirit.
          Xinzhu City, Taiwan                   2003-01-07 Tu  19:10
           
          Another opinion from B., Andrew.
           
          I believe it was Paul van Dyk who said that the big obstacle to using  modernized form of dates and times is tradition, mainly in the US.   
          I could add one more: the information available to both teachers and students in the United States is erratic, sporadic, and sometimes not available at all.    No single government organ takes up the issue of uniform standards taught in every state, applied to government offices, like the U,S, Postal Service, or even the General Accounting Office.
          As one who was educated in the united States but traveled around the world, I find it easy to accept the logical system over the traditional one.
           
          Other English language territories, to my knowledge, aren't quite so baffled by YYYY-MM-DD and the 24-hour time system, although in spoken word, it is still in its infancy.    The UK and continental Europe seem
          to be comfortable with airport announcements in English, like
          Flight XYZ 345 is boarding at 18:30 from gate 78
          .    When it is on the hour, it is simply at eighteen hour, or eitheen hours.    Singular would
          bring it more in line with other European languages, like French, Hungarian or German.
           
          When listening to BBC, the announcement of time is Twenty-two hour GMT.   To say twenty-two hundred is a relic from the past, and has no value, as simply there are no hundreds of hours, only twenty three hours and fifty-nine minutes in common parlance, before it turns to a new day and starts with zero hour zero minute, or simply midnight.
           
          An area not covered by the standard, but one in need of some attention is the order of the days of the week.    Some of my American desk calendars picked up the European style:   Monday ~ Sunday order, but the majority is still using the weekend to start the week: Sunday ~ Saturday.    It's in the language: Weekend = Sunday, so why should it be the beginning?    To me, it's like starting the year with December, or make twelve o'clock the first hour of a day.   
           
          As an engineer as well as a language teacher, I wish to receive some input on this.
           
          BUDAI, Andrew






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        • Martin Schröder
          PLEASE - stop sending large images as attachments - stop sending HTML mails - learn to quote Your mail had 114k and carried ~1k new content! HTH. HAND. Martin
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 7, 2003
            PLEASE
            - stop sending large images as attachments
            - stop sending HTML mails
            - learn to quote

            Your mail had 114k and carried ~1k new content!

            HTH. HAND.
            Martin
            --
            http://www.tm.oneiros.de/calendar/2003/
          • piebaldconsult
            We don t care what you do in a non-ISO8601 format! This group is only concerned with ISO8601 compliant formats!
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 3, 2003
              We don't care what you do in a non-ISO8601 format! This group is only
              concerned with ISO8601 compliant formats!
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.