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Re: [ISO8601] egroups date listing

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  • Tex Texin
    Han, OK then, let s string em up! (This means send them to the gallows. I didn t want to leave an unexplained American idiom in this conversation ;-) ) I
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 25, 2001
      Han,
      OK then, let's string 'em up!

      (This means send them to the gallows. I didn't want to leave
      an unexplained American idiom in this conversation ;-) )

      I liked your example of the impact on the students.
      tex


      Han Maenen wrote:
      >
      > I am sorry, but I disagree. They are not ignorant. What makes me believe
      > that what they are doing is intentional is that E-groups has sites in Europe
      > in French, German and Italian with mm-dd-yyyy AM/PM settings. They work
      > abroad and they do not know that these settings are not used there? At least
      > they could have used the now obsolete European settings of dd-mm-yyyy 24
      > hour on these sites. That would have convinced me of their good will.
      >
      > The other company, Be.Inc. has offices and probably production facilities in
      > France. Nobody can make me believe that they are ignorant. Apple and
      > Microsoft know about local settings and ISO 8601, Amiga knew about them too
      > and I have to believe that Be.Inc. doesn't?
      > No way, I remain where I stand and that is that companies that work abroad,
      > like Be.Inc and Onelist.com, know about ISO 8601. If, however, they insist
      > on bombarding European and other non-English speaking peoples with the US
      > formats and even more, FORCING them to use these formats on pain of error
      > messages and even system crashes, then I am convinced that they are trying
      > to do away with ISO 8601 by fooling their international clients into
      > accepting the settings used in the USA as the real global standard.
      >
      > Another indication is that if anybody contacts them on this issue they do
      > not bother to answer.
      >
      > I remember from a class at university years ago, in the era of 286 computers
      > and DOS, when the lecturer HAD to instruct us to type in the US date and
      > time when starting the computer, or the computer would stop in its tracks
      > with an error message. Then something had to be written down on paper or on
      > a word processor and a student asked if the date had to be written the same
      > way as he had done when switching on the computer. No, said the lecturer,
      > you can do it in the format you are accustomed to. I am grateful that the
      > lecturer limited the damage, but this event also showed me the subtle ways
      > in which people can be made to adopt something.
      >
      > The only companies which can be excused because of ignorance are those that
      > work entirely within the USA and these were not my target.
      >
      > Han
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Tex Texin" <texin@...>
      > To: <ISO8601@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, 2001 January 24, 08:44
      > Subject: Re: [ISO8601] egroups date listing
      >
      > > Seems a bit strong to consider the ignorance of companies that do not use
      > 8601, as hostile and wanting to destroy 8601.
      > They are just being ignorant. Am I missing something?
      > tex
      >
      > Han Maenen wrote:
      >
      > I contacted them about this months ago, to no avail. They did not bother to
      > answer, well this IS an answer as far as I am concerned: E-groups
      > (Onelist.com)wants the death of ISO 8601.
      > This company has European websites in languages like French, German and
      > Italian, but what about the settings? Do they respect the international ones
      > there? NO! The settings are mm-dd-yyyy AM/PM on these sites, targeted at
      > people who do NOT use them!
      > My conclusion is: E-groups (Onelist.com) is just as bad as Be.Inc.; both
      > companies want to destroy ISO 8601 and to impose this medieval garbage on
      > the world. Maybe we should look for another provider of this kind.
      >
      > If I could, I would have no truck with this company at all,
      >
      > Han
      >
      > ISO8601 Community email addresses:
      > Post message: ISO8601@onelist.com
      > Subscribe: ISO8601-subscribe@onelist.com
      > Unsubscribe: ISO8601-unsubscribe@onelist.com
      > List owner: ISO8601-owner@onelist.com
      > URL : http://www.onelist.com/community/ISO8601

      --
      According to Murphy, nothing goes according to Hoyle.
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Tex Texin Director, International Business
      mailto:Texin@... +1-781-280-4271 Fax:+1-781-280-4655
      Progress Software Corp. 14 Oak Park, Bedford, MA 01730

      http://www.Progress.com #1 Embedded Database

      Globalization Program
      http://www.Progress.com/partners/globalization.htm
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Green, Paul
      Dear Han, I work for a computer vendor. We have sales offices all over the world. We do some of our Engineering in the USA and some in Ireland. We have had
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 27, 2001
        Dear Han,

        I work for a computer vendor. We have sales offices all over the world. We
        do some of our Engineering in the USA and some in Ireland. We have had
        worldwide customers since 1982. I have personally led projects to add native
        language formats (not just dates and times but entire character sets) to our
        operating system. We have pretty good support today -- in my opinion, and I
        base this on the feedback I get from our customers and our field sales
        people, as well as my own judgement. But this was not always the case. We
        successfully sold many systems in Europe and other parts of the world for
        4-5 years with only American date formats. Now, I grant you this was in the
        early-to-mid 1980s; a long time ago in this business. It took a long time
        for sufficient numbers of customer complaints to work their way up to HQ.
        Once we understood the issue, we tackled it and solved it. I think the
        heart of the problem is that if a company has an innovative product that is
        "good enough" for its customers to get significant value (cost savings,
        functionality, whatever) by using it, then both customers and the vendor see
        the last 10% of missing features as irritants rather than showstoppers. My
        job for our company is to listen to customer requests and help determine the
        product roadmap. So while I do not represent egroups (now part of Yahoo!) or
        own any stock in them, or even know anyone who works there, I think I
        understand some of the aspects of this situation, and I think I can give you
        some pointers on how to nudge them along.

        The real power in a supplier-consumer relationship (or a user-vendor
        relationship, as in this case) is economic. Our customers get us to do
        things for them by tying their requests to future purchases of equipment and
        services. You and I are at a disadvantage in this respect with Yahoo!
        because we get this service for free. The people and organizations who are
        most likely to be able to swiftly influence Yahoo! are its advertisers.

        A secondary power is the power of public humiliation or embarrassment.
        Sometimes this is called "shining the clear light of day" on a subject. It
        seems to me that you are trying to exercise this power via your statements
        to us, but (a) we are the wrong audience and (b) even if you send these
        thoughts to Yahoo! you are just a single user (out of some 6 million users,
        last time I looked). I'm a moderator on several other egroups mailing lists
        and there are over 600,000 mailing list owners, so even that category is
        huge. Now, if you could get Computerworld or a similar trade magazine to
        publish an editorial or an op-ed piece, you might get somewhere. You'd at
        least have a podium from which you could reach a wide audience.

        If you can find a small set of Yahoo! users who are major users of the
        service -- say, a major corporation or non-profit organization, then these
        users might have sufficient clout to request some changes and get them
        implemented. I think this is unlikely, but I haven't looked.

        Lastly, perhaps some other company will start up a competing service that is
        identical to Yahoo! egroups but which uses ISO8601 date formats. Then,
        everyone will be free to switch to this other service and that will give
        egroups a reason to change their service. I have to say that I doubt that
        simply offering a different date format will be a sufficient reason to
        change, or (from the point of view of a vendor) sufficient power to attract
        new customers.

        I actually think is is more likely today vendors will offer native language
        date formats than ISO8601 date formats, because they are still much more
        widely used. I think it will take years of patient education -- starting in
        schools and universities -- to teach people the advantages of a single
        unambiguous format. Personally, I've tried to start writing YYYY-MM-DD in
        all of my handwritten notes. I find it awkward to read and write. I'm still
        plugging away at it, but I think it will take me a few more years to get
        comfortable with it.

        If anyone wants to read a fairly general essay that I wrote on how to a
        computer vendor (particularly my employer) please see
        ftp://ftp.stratus.com/pub/vos/doc/vc/vc_9412.txt
        <ftp://ftp.stratus.com/pub/vos/doc/vc/vc_9412.txt> .

        PG



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Han Maenen [mailto:han.maenen@...]
        Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 6:33 AM
        To: ISO8601
        Subject: Re: [ISO8601] egroups date listing


        I am sorry, but I disagree. They are not ignorant. What makes me believe
        that what they are doing is intentional is that E-groups has sites in Europe
        in French, German and Italian with mm-dd-yyyy AM/PM settings. They work
        abroad and they do not know that these settings are not used there? At least
        they could have used the now obsolete European settings of dd-mm-yyyy 24
        hour on these sites. That would have convinced me of their good will.

        The other company, Be.Inc. has offices and probably production facilities in
        France. Nobody can make me believe that they are ignorant. Apple and
        Microsoft know about local settings and ISO 8601, Amiga knew about them too
        and I have to believe that Be.Inc. doesn't?
        No way, I remain where I stand and that is that companies that work abroad,
        like Be.Inc and Onelist.com, know about ISO 8601. If, however, they insist
        on bombarding European and other non-English speaking peoples with the US
        formats and even more, FORCING them to use these formats on pain of error
        messages and even system crashes, then I am convinced that they are trying
        to do away with ISO 8601 by fooling their international clients into
        accepting the settings used in the USA as the real global standard.

        Another indication is that if anybody contacts them on this issue they do
        not bother to answer.

        I remember from a class at university years ago, in the era of 286 computers
        and DOS, when the lecturer HAD to instruct us to type in the US date and
        time when starting the computer, or the computer would stop in its tracks
        with an error message. Then something had to be written down on paper or on
        a word processor and a student asked if the date had to be written the same
        way as he had done when switching on the computer. No, said the lecturer,
        you can do it in the format you are accustomed to. I am grateful that the
        lecturer limited the damage, but this event also showed me the subtle ways
        in which people can be made to adopt something.

        The only companies which can be excused because of ignorance are those that
        work entirely within the USA and these were not my target.

        Han

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Tex Texin" <texin@...>
        To: <ISO8601@egroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 2001 January 24, 08:44
        Subject: Re: [ISO8601] egroups date listing


        > Seems a bit strong to consider the ignorance of companies that do not use
        8601, as hostile and wanting to destroy 8601.
        They are just being ignorant. Am I missing something?
        tex

        Han Maenen wrote:

        I contacted them about this months ago, to no avail. They did not bother to
        answer, well this IS an answer as far as I am concerned: E-groups
        (Onelist.com)wants the death of ISO 8601.
        This company has European websites in languages like French, German and
        Italian, but what about the settings? Do they respect the international ones
        there? NO! The settings are mm-dd-yyyy AM/PM on these sites, targeted at
        people who do NOT use them!
        My conclusion is: E-groups (Onelist.com) is just as bad as Be.Inc.; both
        companies want to destroy ISO 8601 and to impose this medieval garbage on
        the world. Maybe we should look for another provider of this kind.

        If I could, I would have no truck with this company at all,

        Han





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        267:N/A=567135/R=1/*http://domains.yahoo.com>
        <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=176325.1307935.2900315.1248727/D=egroupmail/S=1700689
        267:N/A=567135/R=2/*http://domains.yahoo.com>


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        l/S=1700689267:N/A=567135/rand=640301644>

        ISO8601 Community email addresses:
        Post message: ISO8601@onelist.com
        Subscribe: ISO8601-subscribe@onelist.com
        Unsubscribe: ISO8601-unsubscribe@onelist.com
        List owner: ISO8601-owner@onelist.com
        URL : http://www.onelist.com/community/ISO8601
        <http://www.onelist.com/community/ISO8601>
      • bobneifert@yahoo.com
        Ignorance certainly does not imply hostility, even if the ignorance is willful and the magnitude of that will astoundingly disproportionate. Egroups
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 29, 2001
          Ignorance certainly does not imply hostility, even if the ignorance is
          willful and the magnitude of that will astoundingly disproportionate.
          Egroups' non-response to the standard's existence is typical: a
          vacuous pause and a change of subject. To infer hostility is paranoid.
          Terrorists and zealots think like that. Let us not behave like zealots
          and terrorists, lest reasonable people discount us as such.

          (We) Americans are notorious for imagining that their own ways are a
          superior and permissible substitute for learning the ways of others.
          They impose their Gringoism on the rest of the world to avoid the
          agony of admitting otherwise, and because history has neglected to
          teach them how to learn. Witness the international use of English
          language on the Internet and the appearance of MM/DD/YYYY in places
          where year-month-day is the colloquial norm. When confronted with
          their arrogance, they go into further denial. It is a typically-human
          cycle of delusion and denial from which the quickest escape is a
          change of subject.

          We are up against cainotophobia, not malice. Unfortunately, fear is
          the more formidable enemy. Fortunately, there are more important
          windmills to attack.

          I see Yahoo! hasn't offered the choice of Esperanto for posting
          language.

          --- In ISO8601@y..., "Tex Texin" <texin@p...> wrote:
          > Han,
          > OK then, let's string 'em up!
          >
          > (This means send them to the gallows. I didn't want to leave
          > an unexplained American idiom in this conversation ;-) )
          >
          > I liked your example of the impact on the students.
          > tex
          >
          >
          > Han Maenen wrote:
          > >
          > > I am sorry, but I disagree. They are not ignorant. What makes me
          believe
          > > that what they are doing is intentional is that E-groups has sites
          in Europe
          > > in French, German and Italian with mm-dd-yyyy AM/PM settings. They
          work
          > > abroad and they do not know that these settings are not used
          there? At least
          > > they could have used the now obsolete European settings of
          dd-mm-yyyy 24
          > > hour on these sites. That would have convinced me of their good
          will.
          > >
          > > The other company, Be.Inc. has offices and probably production
          facilities in
          > > France. Nobody can make me believe that they are ignorant. Apple
          and
          > > Microsoft know about local settings and ISO 8601, Amiga knew about
          them too
          > > and I have to believe that Be.Inc. doesn't?
          > > No way, I remain where I stand and that is that companies that
          work abroad,
          > > like Be.Inc and Onelist.com, know about ISO 8601. If, however,
          they insist
          > > on bombarding European and other non-English speaking peoples with
          the US
          > > formats and even more, FORCING them to use these formats on pain
          of error
          > > messages and even system crashes, then I am convinced that they
          are trying
          > > to do away with ISO 8601 by fooling their international clients
          into
          > > accepting the settings used in the USA as the real global
          standard.
          > >
          > > Another indication is that if anybody contacts them on this issue
          they do
          > > not bother to answer.
          > >
          > > I remember from a class at university years ago, in the era of 286
          computers
          > > and DOS, when the lecturer HAD to instruct us to type in the US
          date and
          > > time when starting the computer, or the computer would stop in its
          tracks
          > > with an error message. Then something had to be written down on
          paper or on
          > > a word processor and a student asked if the date had to be written
          the same
          > > way as he had done when switching on the computer. No, said the
          lecturer,
          > > you can do it in the format you are accustomed to. I am grateful
          that the
          > > lecturer limited the damage, but this event also showed me the
          subtle ways
          > > in which people can be made to adopt something.
          > >
          > > The only companies which can be excused because of ignorance are
          those that
          > > work entirely within the USA and these were not my target.
          > >
          > > Han
          > >
          <snip>
        • Han Maenen
          I am no terrorist, no zealot and I am not paranoid. I am just sick and tired of the US attempts to impose its measuring units and its time- and date settings
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 29, 2001
            I am no terrorist, no zealot and I am not paranoid. I am just sick and
            tired of the US attempts to impose its measuring units and its time- and
            date settings on the rest of the world. I am a European and I am constantly
            at the receiving end of these attempts, I have had it and this is the reason
            why I see red,

            Han

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <bobneifert@...>
            To: <ISO8601@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, 2001 January 29, 23::44
            Subject: [ISO8601] Re: egroups date listing


            Ignorance certainly does not imply hostility, even if the ignorance is
            willful and the magnitude of that will astoundingly disproportionate.
            Egroups' non-response to the standard's existence is typical: a vacuous
            pause and a change of subject. To infer hostility is paranoid.
            Terrorists and zealots think like that. Let us not behave like zealots and
            terrorists, lest reasonable people discount us as such.
            (We) Americans are notorious for imagining that their own ways are a
            superior and permissible substitute for learning the ways of others.

            They impose their Gringoism on the rest of the world to avoid the agony of
            admitting otherwise, and because history has neglected to teach them how to
            learn. Witness the international use of English
            language on the Internet and the appearance of MM/DD/YYYY in places where
            year-month-day is the colloquial norm. When confronted with
            their arrogance, they go into further denial. It is a typically-human cycle
            of delusion and denial from which the quickest escape is a change of
            subject.

            We are up against cainotophobia, not malice. Unfortunately, fear is the more
            formidable enemy. Fortunately, there are more important windmills to attack.
            >
            > I see Yahoo! hasn't offered the choice of Esperanto for posting language.

            <snip>
          • Morris, Mike
            ... Hmmm. Actually, you *may* just be paranoid :-) According to Webster, paranoia is characterized by extreme... distrust of others . And you are indeed
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 29, 2001
              > I am no terrorist, no zealot and I am not paranoid.
              > I am just sick and tired of the US attempts to
              > impose its measuring units and its time- and
              > date settings on the rest of the world.

              Hmmm. Actually, you *may* just be paranoid :-)
              According to Webster, paranoia is "characterized by extreme... distrust of
              others". And you are indeed exhibiting signs of distrust:

              (1) First, in believing that there is such a thing as "US attempts to impose
              its measuring units... on the rest of the world". I can assure you,
              Americans aren't trying to foist anything upon you - they're just lazy,
              self-centered, somewhat inconsiderate, and largely unaware that there IS a
              rest of the world. Trust me on this - I am one.

              (2) You've been assured that there is no conspiracy by several people in
              several ways, and seem to distrust their assurances as well.

              Frankly, it doesn't look good :-)

              > I am a European and I am constantly
              > at the receiving end of these attempts, I have had it and
              > this is the reason why I see red,

              Seeing red is perfectly justifiable - the situation is both frustrating and
              ridiculous; but believing that the US is doing it to you on purpose is, I'm
              afraid, "paranoid". See the difference?
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