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Re: [ISO8601] DST

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  • Tex Texin
    John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so my statement could have been off base. Still, it is up to individual markets to choose
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
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      John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so
      my statement could have been off base.

      Still, it is up to individual markets to choose zones and when they
      change from one to another, so it strikes me as odd that the zone
      evaporates on a certain date and mysteriously reappears later, like a
      space warp on star trek.

      Now I wonder about Indiana not switching to daylight savings. Did it
      create a hole in the time zone?
      From the time zone's perspective does Indiana not exist? Is there a
      sound if a tree falls in the forest in Indiana when the rest of the
      country is on daylight savings, or is the sound there an hour earlier?
      later?

      Could this be where the 90% of the missing mass of the universe is
      hiding?

      Aargh!

      ;-)
      (Hey it's Sat. night. I'll research the time zone stuff a bit more. No,
      I won't be checking the computers of the USS Enterprise. )



      Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part
      of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at
      least.

      The issues really are:
      *The short notice
      *The very marginal benefit at a time of year when length of day is
      already short.
      For areas well away from the equator, DST makes a great deal of sense
      for midsummer. Our LoD is >16 hours in summer, <8 in winter. You really
      can't arrange 8 hours of daylight to
      not use electric lights.


      --
      -------------------------------------------------------------
      Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
      Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

      XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
      Making e-Business Work Around the World
      -------------------------------------------------------------
    • John Steele
      The -5 (Eastern) timezone has several subsegments. The main (US and Canadian) one incorporates US style DST rules, and may now have to split. Indiana (and
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
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        The -5 (Eastern) timezone has several subsegments. The main (US and Canadian) one incorporates "US style" DST rules, and may now have to split. Indiana (and probably some South American countries) don't observe DST at all, and would be another segment. Since winter is reversed in Southern Hemisphere there is (probably) at least one subzone with reversed DST rules.
         
        I'm not sure I know the proper terminology but Google on tz timezone unix. The tz database is organized by continent and gives main time zone and dst rules by country, year by year, including parts of countries. It generally goes back to "mean solar time" before time zones.
         
        If you want to see a complete mess, look at +3 in Europe, MidEast. Every Middle Eastern country (if it has DST) has its own rule, in some cases deciding year by year.

        Tex Texin <tex@...> wrote:
        John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so
        my statement could have been off base.

        Still, it is up to individual markets to choose zones and when they
        change from one to another, so it strikes me as odd that the zone
        evaporates on a certain date and mysteriously reappears later, like a
        space warp on star trek.

        Now I wonder about Indiana not switching to daylight savings. Did it
        create a hole in the time zone?
        From the time zone's perspective does Indiana not exist? Is there a
        sound if a tree falls in the forest in Indiana when the rest of the
        country is on daylight savings, or is the sound there an hour earlier?
        later?

        Could this be where the 90% of the missing mass of the universe is
        hiding?

        Aargh!

        ;-)
        (Hey it's Sat. night. I'll research the time zone stuff a bit more. No,
        I won't be checking the computers of the USS Enterprise. )



        Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part
        of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at
        least.

        The issues really are:
        *The short notice
        *The very marginal benefit at a time of year when length of day is
        already short.
        For areas well away from the equator, DST makes a great deal of sense
        for midsummer. Our LoD is >16 hours in summer, <8 in winter. You really
        can't arrange 8 hours of daylight to
        not use electric lights.


        --
        -------------------------------------------------------------
        Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@...
        Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                                
        XenCraft                        http://www.XenCraft.com
        Making e-Business Work Around the World
        -------------------------------------------------------------
      • piebaldconsult
        I, for one, am totally anti-DST. My main complaint is that I don t want someone else deciding that _I_ want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
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          I, for one, am totally anti-DST.

          My main complaint is that I don't want someone else deciding that _I_
          want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or employer wants to
          adjust its hours that's fine by me, but leave me the hell alone.

          Plus I don't see how DST can save a significant amount of energy when
          modern offices have their lights (and air conditioning) on only during
          the daylight hours anyway. (Well, some have them on 24/7.)

          Fortunately I now live in Arizona, blessedly DST-free.
        • pyster
          I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
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            I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
            anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.



            --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult" <PIEBALDconsult@a...>
            wrote:
            > I, for one, am totally anti-DST.
            >
            > My main complaint is that I don't want someone else deciding that _I_
            > want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or employer wants to
            > adjust its hours that's fine by me, but leave me the hell alone.
            >
            > Plus I don't see how DST can save a significant amount of energy when
            > modern offices have their lights (and air conditioning) on only during
            > the daylight hours anyway. (Well, some have them on 24/7.)
            >
            > Fortunately I now live in Arizona, blessedly DST-free.
          • NGUYEN Ivy
            Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may be the countries who
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
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              Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms
              for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may be
              the countries who decide to do DST do it to only benefit them (and
              only them) alone (which may be considered selfish in itself?). They
              may not think about others in the world trying to calculate time
              differences between timezones, as well as computer software and
              hardware.

              On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
              > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
              > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
            • pyster
              natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the entire planet. I ve
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
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                natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                adjustment, if that.

                Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                of life.

                What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                rest of the planet.

                (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)

                --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, NGUYEN Ivy <nguyenivy@g...> wrote:
                > Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms
                > for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may
                be
                > the countries who decide to do DST do it to only benefit them (and
                > only them) alone (which may be considered selfish in itself?). They
                > may not think about others in the world trying to calculate time
                > differences between timezones, as well as computer software and
                > hardware.
                >
                > On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@y...> wrote:
                > > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                > > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
              • piebaldconsult
                ... Huh? It s the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 26, 2005
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                  --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "pyster" <pyster@y...> wrote:
                  > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                  > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.


                  Huh? It's the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                • piebaldconsult
                  And furthermore... Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere), but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it s just as valid to adjust one s
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 26, 2005
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                    And furthermore...

                    Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere),
                    but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it's just as valid to adjust one's
                    hours the other way (spring back, fall forward). But what makes the
                    most sense is to adjust _both_ ends, so a business that's open 9-5 in
                    winter would be open 8-6 in summer.

                    There are so many ways of doing it that it's impertinent for a body to
                    decide it for everyone.

                    As a further example of different ways to do it I'll mention again that
                    the congresscritter I had in SoCal wanted "double daylight saving
                    time", now _that's_ just nuts.

                    Abolish DST!!
                  • David Settle
                    ... As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we re asleep) to the evening (when we re not). Not only do most people enjoy having more daylight
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 27, 2005
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                      ISO8601@yahoogroups.com wrote on 27/07/2005 01:37:06:

                      > And furthermore...
                      >
                      > Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere),
                      > but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it's just as valid to adjust one's
                      > hours the other way (spring back, fall forward). But what makes the
                      > most sense is to adjust _both_ ends, so a business that's open 9-5
                      in
                      > winter would be open 8-6 in summer.

                      As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're asleep) to the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having more daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it also reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by around 1%-3%.

                      Beats me why anyone would be against it.

                      However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-ho), so can we talk about something else now?

                      Dave
                      --
                      Dave Settle
                      Deutsche Bank London
                    • Bruce Landwaster
                      conserving resources is selfish? ... -Pyster Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited; imagination encircles the world. - Einstein
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 27, 2005
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                        conserving resources is selfish?

                        --- piebaldconsult <PIEBALDconsult@...> wrote:

                        > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "pyster" <pyster@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold
                        > strong
                        > > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
                        >
                        >
                        > Huh? It's the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        -Pyster
                        "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge
                        is limited; imagination encircles the world." - Einstein

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                      • piebaldconsult
                        ... asleep) to Who s asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_ want to sleep? That s selfish of you. ... more I still like to have dinner
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 28, 2005
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                          > As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're
                          asleep) to

                          Who's asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_
                          want to sleep? That's selfish of you.

                          > the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having
                          more

                          I still like to have dinner at sunset, why should I have to adjust my
                          clock?

                          > daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it
                          also
                          > reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by
                          around
                          > 1%-3%.

                          How can that be when people use _more_ energy during daylight hours
                          rather than less? The whole concept of DST is centered around reduced
                          daylight energy use. And don't forget that Ben Franklin was _joking_!

                          > However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-
                          ho), so

                          It goes to show why ISO8601 needn't support DST. When interchanging
                          data one should always send UTC and let the receiving party determine
                          what it means in their own personal zone.
                        • pyster
                          Ben Franklin was not joking. Please present evidence supporting the idea that DST does not conserve resources and that it actually uses more resources. Your
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 29, 2005
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                            Ben Franklin was not joking.

                            Please present evidence supporting the idea that DST does not conserve
                            resources and that it actually uses more resources.

                            Your fine state of california's energy department claims that DST does
                            indeed does save energies.

                            Your personal likes and dislikes for when you like to eat dinner, get
                            up in the morning, sleep in, etc. are of zero importance to the
                            benifit of society. The root reason to use DST is energy consumption.

                            Time zone information is indeed important for time stamps.

                            Like I said. Selfish.

                            --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult" <PIEBALDconsult@a...>
                            wrote:
                            > > As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're
                            > asleep) to
                            >
                            > Who's asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_
                            > want to sleep? That's selfish of you.
                            >
                            > > the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having
                            > more
                            >
                            > I still like to have dinner at sunset, why should I have to adjust my
                            > clock?
                            >
                            > > daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it
                            > also
                            > > reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by
                            > around
                            > > 1%-3%.
                            >
                            > How can that be when people use _more_ energy during daylight hours
                            > rather than less? The whole concept of DST is centered around reduced
                            > daylight energy use. And don't forget that Ben Franklin was _joking_!
                            >
                            > > However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-
                            > ho), so
                            >
                            > It goes to show why ISO8601 needn't support DST. When interchanging
                            > data one should always send UTC and let the receiving party determine
                            > what it means in their own personal zone.
                          • NGUYEN Ivy
                            There s someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can easily get used to
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 29, 2005
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                              There's someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken
                              and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can
                              easily get used to that, and suddenly throwing in a missed hour can be
                              a problem.

                              On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
                              > natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                              > have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                              > entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                              > cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                              > adjustment, if that.
                              >
                              > Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                              > not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                              > consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                              > which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                              > of life.
                              >
                              > What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                              > out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                              > what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                              > that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                              > remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                              > simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                              > rest of the planet.
                              >
                              > (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)
                            • Tex Texin
                              ok guys. that s enough off-topic bickering... ... -- ... Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@XenCraft.com Xen Master
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                ok guys. that's enough off-topic bickering...

                                NGUYEN Ivy wrote:
                                >
                                > There's someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken
                                > and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can
                                > easily get used to that, and suddenly throwing in a missed hour can be
                                > a problem.
                                >
                                > On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
                                > > natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                                > > have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                                > > entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                                > > cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                                > > adjustment, if that.
                                > >
                                > > Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                                > > not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                                > > consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                                > > which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                                > > of life.
                                > >
                                > > What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                                > > out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                                > > what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                                > > that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                                > > remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                                > > simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                                > > rest of the planet.
                                > >
                                > > (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                -------------------------------------------------------------
                                Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
                                Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

                                XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
                                Making e-Business Work Around the World
                                -------------------------------------------------------------
                              • piebaldconsult
                                ... You needn t change the clock to do that.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                  > benifit of society. The root reason to use DST is energy consumption.

                                  You needn't change the clock to do that.
                                • piebaldconsult
                                  ... Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to conserve resources? (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                    > conserving resources is selfish?

                                    Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                    conserve resources?

                                    (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                    resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday), the
                                    U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)

                                    My argument against DST is threefold:

                                    1) That adjusting our workday an hour earlier in the summer does not
                                    conserve significant resources, it may once have been true, but I'm
                                    sure the savings has been greatly reduced in the last few decades,
                                    due to increased use of air conditioning 24/7 (even when no one is in
                                    the building) and the use of electric lighting during daylight hours
                                    in so many office buildings (which are all windows, why is that?).

                                    2) There is no need to change the clocks to adjust the workday an
                                    hour earlier, just work 8-4 in summer rather than 9-5, no big deal.

                                    3) That the government has no place deciding for the people how they
                                    should conserve resources, especially when the plan they choose is
                                    the least likely to work.

                                    Let each individual decide for himself what plan works best for him.
                                  • johnmsteele
                                    ... the ... Well, I assume Europe is among those wiser cultures and oddly they have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :) As for conserving laws,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                      --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                      <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                      > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                      >
                                      > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                      > conserve resources?
                                      >
                                      > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                      > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                      the
                                      > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                      >

                                      Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                      have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :)

                                      As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                      only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                      *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                      *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                      *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                      *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                      the rate.
                                      *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                      *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                      I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                    • Tex Texin
                                      Don t forget those damned low flow toilets. ... -- ... Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@XenCraft.com Xen Master
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                        Don't forget those damned low flow toilets.

                                        johnmsteele wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                        > <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                        > > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                        > >
                                        > > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                        > > conserve resources?
                                        > >
                                        > > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                        > > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                        > the
                                        > > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                        > have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :)
                                        >
                                        > As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                        > only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                        > *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                        > *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                        > *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                        > *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                        > the rate.
                                        > *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                        > *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                        > I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        -------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
                                        Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

                                        XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
                                        Making e-Business Work Around the World
                                        -------------------------------------------------------------
                                      • B. Andrew
                                        At a risk of being scolded for being Off Topic, I need to stress that anything deviating, rather than working toward an acceptable world standard, is a futile
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
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                                              At a risk of being scolded for being Off Topic, I need to stress that anything deviating, rather than working toward an acceptable world standard, is a futile exercise.  Hence the purpose of ISO 8601 and a number of other world standards we seem to accept and support.   
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Tex Texin
                                          Sent: 2005. jĂșlius 31. 1:21
                                          Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Re: DST

                                          Don't forget those damned low flow toilets.

                                          johnmsteele wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                          > <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                          > > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                          > >
                                          > > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                          > > conserve resources?
                                          > >
                                          > > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                          > > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                          > the
                                          > > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                          > have DST too (slightly different dates than us).  :)
                                          >
                                          > As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                          > only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                          > *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                          > *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                          > *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                          > *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                          > the rate.
                                          > *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                          > *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                          > I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          -------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@...
                                          Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                                                                  
                                          XenCraft             http://www.XenCraft.com
                                          Making e-Business Work Around the World
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