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DST

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  • pyster
    Seems to be a lot of anti-DST sentiment… DST saves energy by synchronizing available daylight hours with human activity. Studies in the US in the 70s found
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 23, 2005
      Seems to be a lot of anti-DST sentiment…

      DST saves energy by synchronizing available daylight hours with human
      activity. Studies in the US in the 70s found DST to reduce energy
      consumption by about 1%, which at that time came out to about 10,000
      barrels of oil a day, or 300,000 barrels a year.

      One of the American founding fathers, Ben Franklin, while a delegate
      to France, wrote an essay on the economic benefits of natural light –
      vs- artificial light and synchronizing human activity around
      available natural light. It was his assertion that the people of
      Paris could save about 64,050,000 pounds of tallow and wax if they
      simply adjusted themselves accordingly.

      Less energy consumption = less money spent and less pollution created.

      Studies in some US states appear to show that DST reduces traffic
      fatalities by allowing people to travel home at the end of the day
      during day light hours instead of in darkness. DST does not appear to
      affect morning traffic fatalities. (My observation is that people are
      more prone to be impatient and in a hurry at the end of the day than
      at the beginning of the day.) In California, The department of
      traffic estimated DST to save 50 lives, prevent 2,000 injuries, and
      save about $28 million in traffic accident costs.

      DST appears to reduce people's exposure to certain crimes, possible
      by placing most human activity during day light hours.

      DST, as a concept but not a name, is observed by over 70 countries
      world wide. It is not observed by tropical counties because they have
      such an abundance of day light hours. This is obviously not some
      American conspiracy.

      We recognize the designed flaw in software written without
      consideration of the turn of the millennia. This design flaw is
      forgivable due to the need to conserve space and the thought that the
      technology being designed would be antiquaited long before this would
      become a problem. This design flaw is not so forgivable when it comes
      to the idea of DST as it is easy to implement customizable DST
      options into software or to allow for software updates to handle the
      question. Any mission critical device that cannot accept a simple
      upgrade in how it handles time is flawed.

      I fail to see the inconvenience of DST yet see tangible evidence of
      it's benefits. How can not following DST where it can save energy,
      reduce traffic fatalities, and lower crime, be a good thing? Is
      resetting the time on all of your devices that big a deal? Can
      someone please supply me with some reason why DST is a bad idea?
    • Tex Texin
      I don t think it is so much anti-DST as the lack of warning of the change, and since we already have DST, the incremental benefits of extending it a week or a
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 23, 2005
        I don't think it is so much anti-DST as the lack of warning of the
        change, and since we already have DST, the incremental benefits of
        extending it a week or a month, are likely outweighed by the cost of
        managing the change.
        It is a small benefit.
        Problems are significant, especially for automated systems and for
        confusion among people.


        If I bought a plane ticket that departs during the period affected by
        the change, when will it really take off?

        It doesn't matter if you know the correct answer. It will confuse many
        people and computer systems.
        Then consider the folks making connections in the US. Will they make
        their connections?

        Note that some things are unaffected. For example if I left at 4pm for a
        6 hr flight, it still lands 6 hrs later
        even if the US changes the time at the landing site.

        However, workers that show up for work just before my flight lands,
        instead show up at a different time relative to my landing.

        Even better more pointed example: if my flight continues on after
        landing in the US, will the pilot that shows up to take over for the
        next leg of the flight, arrive at work in time for my take off?
        ;-)

        As for informing other countries of the time zone change- that indicates
        a misunderstanding. The daylight savings time zone exists year round.
        What changes is whether a community adopts it. So the US is not changing
        the definition of PDT, EDT, etc. What is changing is the time at which
        the regions adopt the time zone as their standard for part of the year.

        Other nations are therefore not affected, other than they would prefer
        to keep the same hours we do for ease of doing business.


        pyster wrote:
        >
        > Seems to be a lot of anti-DST sentiment…
        >
        > DST saves energy by synchronizing available daylight hours with human
        > activity. Studies in the US in the 70s found DST to reduce energy
        > consumption by about 1%, which at that time came out to about 10,000
        > barrels of oil a day, or 300,000 barrels a year.
        >
        > One of the American founding fathers, Ben Franklin, while a delegate
        > to France, wrote an essay on the economic benefits of natural light –
        > vs- artificial light and synchronizing human activity around
        > available natural light. It was his assertion that the people of
        > Paris could save about 64,050,000 pounds of tallow and wax if they
        > simply adjusted themselves accordingly.
        >
        > Less energy consumption = less money spent and less pollution created.
        >
        > Studies in some US states appear to show that DST reduces traffic
        > fatalities by allowing people to travel home at the end of the day
        > during day light hours instead of in darkness. DST does not appear to
        > affect morning traffic fatalities. (My observation is that people are
        > more prone to be impatient and in a hurry at the end of the day than
        > at the beginning of the day.) In California, The department of
        > traffic estimated DST to save 50 lives, prevent 2,000 injuries, and
        > save about $28 million in traffic accident costs.
        >
        > DST appears to reduce people's exposure to certain crimes, possible
        > by placing most human activity during day light hours.
        >
        > DST, as a concept but not a name, is observed by over 70 countries
        > world wide. It is not observed by tropical counties because they have
        > such an abundance of day light hours. This is obviously not some
        > American conspiracy.
        >
        > We recognize the designed flaw in software written without
        > consideration of the turn of the millennia. This design flaw is
        > forgivable due to the need to conserve space and the thought that the
        > technology being designed would be antiquaited long before this would
        > become a problem. This design flaw is not so forgivable when it comes
        > to the idea of DST as it is easy to implement customizable DST
        > options into software or to allow for software updates to handle the
        > question. Any mission critical device that cannot accept a simple
        > upgrade in how it handles time is flawed.
        >
        > I fail to see the inconvenience of DST yet see tangible evidence of
        > it's benefits. How can not following DST where it can save energy,
        > reduce traffic fatalities, and lower crime, be a good thing? Is
        > resetting the time on all of your devices that big a deal? Can
        > someone please supply me with some reason why DST is a bad idea?
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        -------------------------------------------------------------
        Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
        Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

        XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
        Making e-Business Work Around the World
        -------------------------------------------------------------
      • John Steele
        Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at least. The issues
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 23, 2005
          Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at least.
           
          The issues really are:
          *The short notice
          *The very marginal benefit at a time of year when length of day is already short.
          For areas well away from the equator, DST makes a great deal of sense for midsummer. Our LoD is >16 hours in summer, <8 in winter. You really can't arrange 8 hours of daylight to not use electric lights.

          Tex Texin <tex@...> wrote:
          As for informing other countries of the time zone change- that indicates
          a misunderstanding. The daylight savings time zone exists year round.
          What changes is whether a community adopts it. So the US is not changing
          the definition of PDT, EDT, etc. What is changing is the time at which
          the regions adopt the time zone as their standard for part of the year.

        • Tex Texin
          John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so my statement could have been off base. Still, it is up to individual markets to choose
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
            John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so
            my statement could have been off base.

            Still, it is up to individual markets to choose zones and when they
            change from one to another, so it strikes me as odd that the zone
            evaporates on a certain date and mysteriously reappears later, like a
            space warp on star trek.

            Now I wonder about Indiana not switching to daylight savings. Did it
            create a hole in the time zone?
            From the time zone's perspective does Indiana not exist? Is there a
            sound if a tree falls in the forest in Indiana when the rest of the
            country is on daylight savings, or is the sound there an hour earlier?
            later?

            Could this be where the 90% of the missing mass of the universe is
            hiding?

            Aargh!

            ;-)
            (Hey it's Sat. night. I'll research the time zone stuff a bit more. No,
            I won't be checking the computers of the USS Enterprise. )



            Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part
            of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at
            least.

            The issues really are:
            *The short notice
            *The very marginal benefit at a time of year when length of day is
            already short.
            For areas well away from the equator, DST makes a great deal of sense
            for midsummer. Our LoD is >16 hours in summer, <8 in winter. You really
            can't arrange 8 hours of daylight to
            not use electric lights.


            --
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
            Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

            XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
            Making e-Business Work Around the World
            -------------------------------------------------------------
          • John Steele
            The -5 (Eastern) timezone has several subsegments. The main (US and Canadian) one incorporates US style DST rules, and may now have to split. Indiana (and
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
              The -5 (Eastern) timezone has several subsegments. The main (US and Canadian) one incorporates "US style" DST rules, and may now have to split. Indiana (and probably some South American countries) don't observe DST at all, and would be another segment. Since winter is reversed in Southern Hemisphere there is (probably) at least one subzone with reversed DST rules.
               
              I'm not sure I know the proper terminology but Google on tz timezone unix. The tz database is organized by continent and gives main time zone and dst rules by country, year by year, including parts of countries. It generally goes back to "mean solar time" before time zones.
               
              If you want to see a complete mess, look at +3 in Europe, MidEast. Every Middle Eastern country (if it has DST) has its own rule, in some cases deciding year by year.

              Tex Texin <tex@...> wrote:
              John, thanks. I have to admit to not knowing much about these zones, so
              my statement could have been off base.

              Still, it is up to individual markets to choose zones and when they
              change from one to another, so it strikes me as odd that the zone
              evaporates on a certain date and mysteriously reappears later, like a
              space warp on star trek.

              Now I wonder about Indiana not switching to daylight savings. Did it
              create a hole in the time zone?
              From the time zone's perspective does Indiana not exist? Is there a
              sound if a tree falls in the forest in Indiana when the rest of the
              country is on daylight savings, or is the sound there an hour earlier?
              later?

              Could this be where the 90% of the missing mass of the universe is
              hiding?

              Aargh!

              ;-)
              (Hey it's Sat. night. I'll research the time zone stuff a bit more. No,
              I won't be checking the computers of the USS Enterprise. )



              Good answer, although I might argue that when DST is in effect is part
              of the definition pf the zone. The tz database treats it that way, at
              least.

              The issues really are:
              *The short notice
              *The very marginal benefit at a time of year when length of day is
              already short.
              For areas well away from the equator, DST makes a great deal of sense
              for midsummer. Our LoD is >16 hours in summer, <8 in winter. You really
              can't arrange 8 hours of daylight to
              not use electric lights.


              --
              -------------------------------------------------------------
              Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@...
              Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                                      
              XenCraft                        http://www.XenCraft.com
              Making e-Business Work Around the World
              -------------------------------------------------------------
            • piebaldconsult
              I, for one, am totally anti-DST. My main complaint is that I don t want someone else deciding that _I_ want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 24, 2005
                I, for one, am totally anti-DST.

                My main complaint is that I don't want someone else deciding that _I_
                want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or employer wants to
                adjust its hours that's fine by me, but leave me the hell alone.

                Plus I don't see how DST can save a significant amount of energy when
                modern offices have their lights (and air conditioning) on only during
                the daylight hours anyway. (Well, some have them on 24/7.)

                Fortunately I now live in Arizona, blessedly DST-free.
              • pyster
                I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
                  I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                  anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.



                  --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult" <PIEBALDconsult@a...>
                  wrote:
                  > I, for one, am totally anti-DST.
                  >
                  > My main complaint is that I don't want someone else deciding that _I_
                  > want to adjust _my_ time. If a particular shop or employer wants to
                  > adjust its hours that's fine by me, but leave me the hell alone.
                  >
                  > Plus I don't see how DST can save a significant amount of energy when
                  > modern offices have their lights (and air conditioning) on only during
                  > the daylight hours anyway. (Well, some have them on 24/7.)
                  >
                  > Fortunately I now live in Arizona, blessedly DST-free.
                • NGUYEN Ivy
                  Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may be the countries who
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
                    Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms
                    for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may be
                    the countries who decide to do DST do it to only benefit them (and
                    only them) alone (which may be considered selfish in itself?). They
                    may not think about others in the world trying to calculate time
                    differences between timezones, as well as computer software and
                    hardware.

                    On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
                    > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                    > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
                  • pyster
                    natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the entire planet. I ve
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 25, 2005
                      natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                      have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                      entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                      cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                      adjustment, if that.

                      Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                      not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                      consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                      which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                      of life.

                      What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                      out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                      what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                      that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                      remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                      simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                      rest of the planet.

                      (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)

                      --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, NGUYEN Ivy <nguyenivy@g...> wrote:
                      > Actually, not doing DST keeps in line with natural circadian rhythms
                      > for those who awaken and sleep at a certain time daily. So, it may
                      be
                      > the countries who decide to do DST do it to only benefit them (and
                      > only them) alone (which may be considered selfish in itself?). They
                      > may not think about others in the world trying to calculate time
                      > differences between timezones, as well as computer software and
                      > hardware.
                      >
                      > On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@y...> wrote:
                      > > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                      > > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
                    • piebaldconsult
                      ... Huh? It s the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 26, 2005
                        --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "pyster" <pyster@y...> wrote:
                        > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold strong
                        > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.


                        Huh? It's the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                      • piebaldconsult
                        And furthermore... Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere), but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it s just as valid to adjust one s
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 26, 2005
                          And furthermore...

                          Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere),
                          but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it's just as valid to adjust one's
                          hours the other way (spring back, fall forward). But what makes the
                          most sense is to adjust _both_ ends, so a business that's open 9-5 in
                          winter would be open 8-6 in summer.

                          There are so many ways of doing it that it's impertinent for a body to
                          decide it for everyone.

                          As a further example of different ways to do it I'll mention again that
                          the congresscritter I had in SoCal wanted "double daylight saving
                          time", now _that's_ just nuts.

                          Abolish DST!!
                        • David Settle
                          ... As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we re asleep) to the evening (when we re not). Not only do most people enjoy having more daylight
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 27, 2005
                            ISO8601@yahoogroups.com wrote on 27/07/2005 01:37:06:

                            > And furthermore...
                            >
                            > Not only does it get lighter in summer (in the northern hemisphere),
                            > but it _stays_ lighter longer. So it's just as valid to adjust one's
                            > hours the other way (spring back, fall forward). But what makes the
                            > most sense is to adjust _both_ ends, so a business that's open 9-5
                            in
                            > winter would be open 8-6 in summer.

                            As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're asleep) to the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having more daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it also reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by around 1%-3%.

                            Beats me why anyone would be against it.

                            However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-ho), so can we talk about something else now?

                            Dave
                            --
                            Dave Settle
                            Deutsche Bank London
                          • Bruce Landwaster
                            conserving resources is selfish? ... -Pyster Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited; imagination encircles the world. - Einstein
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 27, 2005
                              conserving resources is selfish?

                              --- piebaldconsult <PIEBALDconsult@...> wrote:

                              > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "pyster" <pyster@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > I have noticed a common theme amongsted those that hold
                              > strong
                              > > anti-DST feelings: Selfishness.
                              >
                              >
                              > Huh? It's the pro-DST folks who are selfish.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              -Pyster
                              "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge
                              is limited; imagination encircles the world." - Einstein

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • piebaldconsult
                              ... asleep) to Who s asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_ want to sleep? That s selfish of you. ... more I still like to have dinner
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 28, 2005
                                > As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're
                                asleep) to

                                Who's asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_
                                want to sleep? That's selfish of you.

                                > the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having
                                more

                                I still like to have dinner at sunset, why should I have to adjust my
                                clock?

                                > daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it
                                also
                                > reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by
                                around
                                > 1%-3%.

                                How can that be when people use _more_ energy during daylight hours
                                rather than less? The whole concept of DST is centered around reduced
                                daylight energy use. And don't forget that Ben Franklin was _joking_!

                                > However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-
                                ho), so

                                It goes to show why ISO8601 needn't support DST. When interchanging
                                data one should always send UTC and let the receiving party determine
                                what it means in their own personal zone.
                              • pyster
                                Ben Franklin was not joking. Please present evidence supporting the idea that DST does not conserve resources and that it actually uses more resources. Your
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 29, 2005
                                  Ben Franklin was not joking.

                                  Please present evidence supporting the idea that DST does not conserve
                                  resources and that it actually uses more resources.

                                  Your fine state of california's energy department claims that DST does
                                  indeed does save energies.

                                  Your personal likes and dislikes for when you like to eat dinner, get
                                  up in the morning, sleep in, etc. are of zero importance to the
                                  benifit of society. The root reason to use DST is energy consumption.

                                  Time zone information is indeed important for time stamps.

                                  Like I said. Selfish.

                                  --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult" <PIEBALDconsult@a...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > As any fule no, DST moves daylight from the morning (when we're
                                  > asleep) to
                                  >
                                  > Who's asleep? You? Why should _I_ adjust my hours just because _you_
                                  > want to sleep? That's selfish of you.
                                  >
                                  > > the evening (when we're not). Not only do most people enjoy having
                                  > more
                                  >
                                  > I still like to have dinner at sunset, why should I have to adjust my
                                  > clock?
                                  >
                                  > > daylight in the evening (around two-thirds of those polled), it
                                  > also
                                  > > reduces the total energy consumed in the country concerned by
                                  > around
                                  > > 1%-3%.
                                  >
                                  > How can that be when people use _more_ energy during daylight hours
                                  > rather than less? The whole concept of DST is centered around reduced
                                  > daylight energy use. And don't forget that Ben Franklin was _joking_!
                                  >
                                  > > However, this is off-topic and generating more heat than light (ho-
                                  > ho), so
                                  >
                                  > It goes to show why ISO8601 needn't support DST. When interchanging
                                  > data one should always send UTC and let the receiving party determine
                                  > what it means in their own personal zone.
                                • NGUYEN Ivy
                                  There s someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can easily get used to
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 29, 2005
                                    There's someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken
                                    and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can
                                    easily get used to that, and suddenly throwing in a missed hour can be
                                    a problem.

                                    On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
                                    > natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                                    > have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                                    > entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                                    > cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                                    > adjustment, if that.
                                    >
                                    > Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                                    > not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                                    > consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                                    > which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                                    > of life.
                                    >
                                    > What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                                    > out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                                    > what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                                    > that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                                    > remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                                    > simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                                    > rest of the planet.
                                    >
                                    > (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)
                                  • Tex Texin
                                    ok guys. that s enough off-topic bickering... ... -- ... Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@XenCraft.com Xen Master
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                      ok guys. that's enough off-topic bickering...

                                      NGUYEN Ivy wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There's someone on this forum who thinks way otherwise. If you awaken
                                      > and sleep at the same (absolute) time daily for years on end, you can
                                      > easily get used to that, and suddenly throwing in a missed hour can be
                                      > a problem.
                                      >
                                      > On 25/07/05, pyster <pyster@...> wrote:
                                      > > natural carcadian rhythms? human beings are remarkably adaptable. I
                                      > > have serious doubts that an hour is going throw off the chi of the
                                      > > entire planet. I've lived in DST all of my life, and in that time I
                                      > > cant think of a single person who needed more than a day to make the
                                      > > adjustment, if that.
                                      > >
                                      > > Anytime natural resources are conserved it benifits all of mankind,
                                      > > not just the countries/states/governments who have figured out how to
                                      > > consume just a little less. Less consumption, means less pollution,
                                      > > which means a more stable ecosystem friendly to our particular form
                                      > > of life.
                                      > >
                                      > > What is the percentage of people on the planet that need to figure
                                      > > out what time it is on some other spot of the globe? Of those people,
                                      > > what is the percentage of people who will find the task so difficult
                                      > > that they will completely fail? Now weigh this number against the
                                      > > remainder of the population and tell me that their need (which is
                                      > > simply to not be too mentally taxed) is greater than the needs of the
                                      > > rest of the planet.
                                      > >
                                      > > (I have no empathy for slackers or dolts)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      --
                                      -------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
                                      Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

                                      XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
                                      Making e-Business Work Around the World
                                      -------------------------------------------------------------
                                    • piebaldconsult
                                      ... You needn t change the clock to do that.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                        > benifit of society. The root reason to use DST is energy consumption.

                                        You needn't change the clock to do that.
                                      • piebaldconsult
                                        ... Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to conserve resources? (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                          > conserving resources is selfish?

                                          Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                          conserve resources?

                                          (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                          resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday), the
                                          U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)

                                          My argument against DST is threefold:

                                          1) That adjusting our workday an hour earlier in the summer does not
                                          conserve significant resources, it may once have been true, but I'm
                                          sure the savings has been greatly reduced in the last few decades,
                                          due to increased use of air conditioning 24/7 (even when no one is in
                                          the building) and the use of electric lighting during daylight hours
                                          in so many office buildings (which are all windows, why is that?).

                                          2) There is no need to change the clocks to adjust the workday an
                                          hour earlier, just work 8-4 in summer rather than 9-5, no big deal.

                                          3) That the government has no place deciding for the people how they
                                          should conserve resources, especially when the plan they choose is
                                          the least likely to work.

                                          Let each individual decide for himself what plan works best for him.
                                        • johnmsteele
                                          ... the ... Well, I assume Europe is among those wiser cultures and oddly they have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :) As for conserving laws,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                            --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                            <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                            > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                            >
                                            > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                            > conserve resources?
                                            >
                                            > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                            > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                            the
                                            > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                            >

                                            Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                            have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :)

                                            As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                            only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                            *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                            *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                            *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                            *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                            the rate.
                                            *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                            *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                            I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                          • Tex Texin
                                            Don t forget those damned low flow toilets. ... -- ... Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@XenCraft.com Xen Master
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                              Don't forget those damned low flow toilets.

                                              johnmsteele wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                              > <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                              > > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                              > >
                                              > > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                              > > conserve resources?
                                              > >
                                              > > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                              > > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                              > the
                                              > > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                              > have DST too (slightly different dates than us). :)
                                              >
                                              > As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                              > only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                              > *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                              > *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                              > *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                              > *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                              > the rate.
                                              > *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                              > *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                              > I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              --
                                              -------------------------------------------------------------
                                              Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@...
                                              Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com

                                              XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com
                                              Making e-Business Work Around the World
                                              -------------------------------------------------------------
                                            • B. Andrew
                                              At a risk of being scolded for being Off Topic, I need to stress that anything deviating, rather than working toward an acceptable world standard, is a futile
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 30, 2005
                                                 
                                                    At a risk of being scolded for being Off Topic, I need to stress that anything deviating, rather than working toward an acceptable world standard, is a futile exercise.  Hence the purpose of ISO 8601 and a number of other world standards we seem to accept and support.   
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Tex Texin
                                                Sent: 2005. július 31. 1:21
                                                Subject: Re: [ISO8601] Re: DST

                                                Don't forget those damned low flow toilets.

                                                johnmsteele wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "piebaldconsult"
                                                > <PIEBALDconsult@a...> wrote:
                                                > > > conserving resources is selfish?
                                                > >
                                                > > Do you know of any other laws (or whatever) that require people to
                                                > > conserve resources?
                                                > >
                                                > > (Always assuming that DST does indeed significantly conserve
                                                > > resources in our wasteful society (and getting moreso everyday),
                                                > the
                                                > > U.S. I mean, no offense to the wiser cultures around the world.)
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > Well, I assume Europe is among those "wiser" cultures and oddly they
                                                > have DST too (slightly different dates than us).  :)
                                                >
                                                > As for "conserving" laws, some of these fall on the manufacturer and
                                                > only raise our prices and restrict our choices, but:
                                                > *CAFE requirements and "gas guzzler" tax on vehicles
                                                > *Minimum efficiency standards for appliances, air conditioners, etc.
                                                > *Minimum insulation requirements in new home construction
                                                > *Legalization of "step" utility pricing, the more you use, the higher
                                                > the rate.
                                                > *Mandatory use of recycling bins, fines if you don't
                                                > *Bottle deposits/recycling on soft drinks
                                                > I'm sure the list is not all inclusive, just a start.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                --
                                                -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@...
                                                Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                                                                        
                                                XenCraft             http://www.XenCraft.com
                                                Making e-Business Work Around the World
                                                -------------------------------------------------------------


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