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Re: [IRAQHistory] About Wafaa's Note

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  • Abdulkarim Hani
    Dear Hayfa, Happy new year, Please forgive me for my intrusion, It gave me great pleasure to see your name and that sent me back in time and space! I
    Message 1 of 138 , Jan 1, 2008
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      Dear Hayfa,
      Happy new year,
      Please forgive me for my intrusion, It gave me great pleasure to see your name and that sent me back in time and space! I remembered Nasiria and your uncle Abboodi, your father Jan, your mother and aunts. Your uncle Abboodi was my classmate in secondary school and we used to study together as we were neighbours and you were a little cute child.
      I met your father and uncle in Baghdad and had visited your aunts there too. I know that your father has left to the states. Please accept my sicere regards and give my best wishes to the family. I will appreciate it if you let me know any further news.
      Abdulkarim Hani

      Hayfa Backus <hayfabacch@...> wrote:
      Dear Wafaa,
       Continue this marvellous work and research.  I appreciate wholeheartedly everything you have done.
      Wishig you and the iraqi group health, happiness and peace for the New Year 2008.
      Best regards,
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: W. A.
      Sent: 12/29/2007 1:04:44 PM
      Subject: Re: [IRAQHistory] About Wafaa's Note

      Dear Wafaa:
      I want to thank you for all your wonderful work in documenting
      IRAQ's history.
      Kudos for your persistance and stamina against all odds.  Not just
      with this Iraq-history documentation project, but even with the Institute
      of Near Eastern & African Studies (INEAS) of which I am a proud
      I am hesitant as to what to decide.  Like you, I will wait and see
      if 90% of this group will respond or not!!  If the group continued
      its activities in 2008, then yes I want to be included.
      I learned a variety of matters that were unknown to me and
      appreciated some of the sources provided and most of the
      Wishing you a joyful holiday season and a New Year full of
      accomplishments, including traveling to China's Olympics, SMILES
      and peace for IRAQ, so that all of us, Iraqis, begin to breath.
      Walaa Ali

      Wafaa' Al-Natheema <aboutfromiraq@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Thank you so much, Ghada, for your note.
      Not only that I agree with you about the status of Iraqi researchers, scientists
      and historians with regard to English language, but because of what you raised pertaining the Arabic and English language matters, we created a translating team from the start to translate from Arabic to English their research, writing and commentary, but they still didn't participate.  The translating team was comprised of me, May Tawfik (who in 2007 left Baghdad for Sweden) and others.  But my dilemma was that I did
      not hear from all of them.  None of them offered to translate anything,
      and so I ended up doing most of the translation plus a couple of
      occassions by Hassan Zeini (HZ) who was not even part of the
      translating team. 
      I still wished that you wrote your message also in English, so that I won't
      spend unnecessary time and energy to translate it.  More than 30% of
      this group are not Arabic speakers.  Additionally among the Arabic
      speakers/readers, there is a considerable percentage of individuals
       whose email carrier (i.e. AOL, earthlink and others) do not have Arabic software to correspond in Arabic.  As a result, a total of almost 45% of the group can not read Arabic.
      Additionally, we, Iraqis in general, know our history more than the outsiders.
      Not to mention the IMPORTANT fact that people worldwide have little to
      no knowledge of Iraqi history and that speakers of English language
      (and other European languages) who wrote and documented IRAQ's history (or that of the Arab and Islamic worlds for that matter) have done serious damage to the truth about may historic events by adding a
      baggage of propoganda and errors to their documentation.  So obviously making sure to modify and document IRAQ's history using the English language is of importance, and it would be even better to do so in Arabic
      and other languages as well.  But considering our limitations and the
      status quo in IRAQ; this "luxurious" option is sadly unavailable to us!
      I want to also thank Ali Kubba, Abdul Karim Hani, Samia Saleh, George
      Michael, UZ, May Roberts and Rita Cohen-Sharaf for their encouragement,
      interesting suggestions and willingness to continue be part of this group.  But if I don't hear from at least 90% of this group by January 10th, I will let it go. 
      Please note that I will translate Ghada's message below and post it shortly to the group.
      Wishing you all a restful, productive and joyous holiday and New Year celebrations.
      Wafaa' Al-Natheema

      ghadeh ashraf <ghadashraf_66@ yahoo.com> wrote:
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      ??????: ??? ??? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????????? .
      ?????? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ? ???? ????? ? ???????? ? ?????, ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ??????????? ???? ?????? ?
      ??????? ??????, ??? ?? ?????????? ??????? ???? ?????????
      ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ??????????? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ???, ???????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ? ?????????... ????? ??? ???? ??
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      ? ????? ?????? ? ????? ?????????? ? ????? ....??? ???
      ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ???? ???????
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      ????????? : ???? ????                                          

      Rita C-S <cohen_sharaf@ hotmail.com>

      Dear Wafaa:
      I just noticed your email after I posted my reply to George's note.
      I would like for this yahoo group to continue its activities and documentation.  You are
      doing a wonderful job and it is very pity that this history writing project has not been
      funded.  I think making a $15 to $25 yearly subscription by everyone in this group
      is reasonable and worthwhile.  This way, you will be able to at least modestly compensate
      historians for their research, time and writing, and it will allow you to know everybody's
      contact information.  In other words, we will be a legitimate group of people who are interested
      in the history of IRAQ. 
      Count me in the group with or without yearly subscription.  I hope the rest of the
      group find this very modest subscription to be the least they can do in return
      to help maintain this history documentation in tact.  I have learned a great deal from
      subscribing to this history group.  Thank you.
      Keep up the great work please,
      Rita Cohen-Sharaf

      To: IRAQHistory@ yahoogroups. com
      From: aboutfromiraq@ yahoo.com
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:47:08 -0800
      Subject: [IRAQHistory] George Michael on IRAQ History Group

      Dear George:
      Thank you so much for your thoughtful note, encouragement and greetings.
      The note below by HZ was indeed the last email delivered through this group address. 
      I apologize for not responding to your note promptly as I have been
      out of the country for two weeks and just returned back last week trying to catch up with email and regular mail, but unsuccessfully.
      Your note came at a period of time when I am seriously having second thoughts about this group and thinking of letting it go.
      We are all together (including myself) 46 subscribers of whom only seven
      or eight have been exchanging thoughts and information through the years.
      The rest are rarely heard from or never!!  Of course, those who have
      joined to learn and know little to nothing about IRAQ's history are not expected to provide information, but at least make comments or inquiries
      once in a while!!
      This group was launched in October 2005.  I spent a considerable time producing newsletters and providing historic information and documentation including maintaining a blog until about three months ago when I posted last.
      I was not supposed to be researching, writing and publishing my writing on IRAQ's history.  After all, I am not a historian.  But I am addicted to history and have been reading, writing and analyzing it extensively.   The Iraqi historians who joined the Writing Team for this group in 2005 were supposed to do that.  But it seems that since this project was not funded, the interest of those historians who were living in troubled and occupied IRAQ never sparked except for once by Anis Al-Kaisi.  Although this is understandable, it is a sad situation.
      Recently, I have become tired from the ineffectiveness of IRAQIS debating
      the subject matters (with few exceptions) be that by their silence not participating, by their few (not many) bashing on one another when they
      disagree with each other's viewpoints and by refusing to expose their names and contact information to me.  I don't have the contact information of three IRAQIS on this list. 
      Why should we take for granted any information or even read commentary provided by someone who is unknown or an anonymousI removed most of those unknowns during the last two years and for good reasons.  Actually I made this requirement to be provided only to me, the maintainer of the group and blog, to ensure the privacy of everybody, not exposing their names and information to the rest of the group. 
      I will welcome consensus on whether to keep or let go of this group.
      I would appreciate receiving feedback from at least 90% of this group by January 10th. If not, I will delete this group.  After all, I need less work and engagements.  It will be helpful to know from those who have joined this group, due to their lack of knowledge about IRAQ's history or because they are interested in IRAQI history, whether they have learned anything significant or felt they have received valuable information in the past.
      I wish you, George, and everyone in this group a pleasant holiday season and a fruitful New Year filled with satisfaction, exploration and PEACE of mind.
      Best Regards,
      Wafaa' M. Al-Natheema

      George Michael <georgemichael1956@ hotmail.com> wrote:
      Dear Wafaa and Everybody:
      I am writing to wish you and everyone in this group blessed Eidul Ad.ha and a merry Christmas.
      Since the note below on November 2nd, I have been receiving no emails from this group.  So I was
      wondering whether it was due to connection problems with my email address or what!!  Also the email
      address of Rita Cohen-Sharaf has been disabled because she did not maintain it for a while and so she
      does not know whether she is still part of this group or not.  This (my) message will be a test to see
      whether she will receive it or not.
      Wafaa', I am getting the impression that subscribers of this history group, particularly Iraqis are not quite
      interested in IRAQ's history or in taking the initiative to provide information, discuss historic events
      or even make simple inqueries!!  It is unfortunate considering the senseless and false documentation
      that has been going on in the the USA and the world about IRAQ and the Arab world for that matter!!
      Since you started this group in October 2005, you have tried all your best to stirr the interest and
      exchange valuable information, but the end result was always the same; ineffective and not interested
      IRAQIS with few exceptions.  The discussion between HZ (who does not disclose his name!!) and Naser was the last we've received and have resulted in no agreement or helpful conclusion other than being upset at each other!
      I hope 2008 brings more enthusiasm to Iraqis in this group and allow us all to have a constructive
      discussion and information exchange.
      You have been doing a great job for IRAQ and IRAQIS, Wafaa, since the war on IRAQ in 1991 and the international embargo.  It is amazing how much persistance, energy and patience you have had with regard to educating the uneducated, promoting the forgotten and the unknown, informing the media and the world and with your activism in general.
      I wish you and all those who struggled the way you have been all the best of health and PEACE of mind.
      May your Eid and holiday season be joyful and filled with warmth.
      Eid Saeed,
      Merry Christmas &
      Happy New Year,
      George Michael

      To: IRAQHistory@ yahoogroups. com
      From: hasseini@yahoo. com
      Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:28:10 -0700
      Subject: Re: [IRAQHistory] Follow up on President Aref's Documentary film

      Dear Wafaa’ and group,
      I read with interest Naser’s comments and can’t help but be surprised at the attempt to selectively write history. I don’t know how old Naser is, but if he was an adult in 1968, then he should know what I was talking about.
      I must mention first that my original message on the subject was to comment on Wafaa’s documentary on the late president Arif in which I mentioned my memories of the student strikes of 1968. This is how the exchange of messages proceeded
      History, as I tried to say, is facts not imaginary things nor wishful thinking. It doesn't change because we want it to nor because someone tells us to do so. I will thus try to address Naser’s remarks in the same order.
      I stress again that my information is not false nor politically motivated. Naser doesn’t know me, yet he has granted himself the right to judge (and condemn) my political motivations because I dared criticize the Ba’ath, without knowing what I think. What he doesn’t know is that I was myself a Ba’thist (probably before he himself became one!) and in close contacts with many prominent members and leaders in the party from the early 1960s. But that should have no effect on presenting the facts of history as they are and pointing out the mistakes which occurred.  If we are not able to face our mistakes, we will not be able to learn from them and will continue to repeat them. Unfortunately, the modern history of Iraq is full of unlearned lessons and repeated mistakes.
      Naser states that “history is a history not opinions” yet what he wrote is mere opinions and slogans, driven by political affiliations that have colored his vision. I tried to present the facts of history like I lived them and,  when facts were not clearly explained, added what I believed were my deductions.
      When I mentioned the alliance of the Ba’th with the Communist Party, it was in reference to Naser’s remark that Communists colored Iraq’s history with blood. I was thus questioning the policies (and mistaken conclusions and alliances) of the Ba’th regime in Iraq in general. The Communist Party indeed changed after 1963 and it did change its leadership, but that was not because of admission of faults but because the previous one was practically wiped out by the Ba’th in 1963, and because Moscow so wanted. But the new leadership was no better: complete subjugation to Moscow’s orders and diktats. And that leadership eventually switched sides in 1991 and started cooperating with the Americans and British and continues today, which takes us back to square one: wrong assumptions leading to wrong alliances. Other faulty and mistaken calculations of the Ba’th are its alliance with Jordan (which cooperated with the Americans in 2003); its alliance with Saudi Arabia and Egypt (which cooperated with the Americans from 1990 until now); its previous alliance with Kuwait in the 1980s(which ended in a catastrophe in 1990-91), etc…
      I did not refer to the 1961 or 1962 student strikes in my original message, because I was addressing the era of Abdul-Rahman Arif and those happenings were before his era. I referred to those strikes only in reply to a question by Walaa regarding Allawi’s alleged role in student strikes.
      I didn't try NOT to mention the Ba’th as Naser claims; on the contrary I did mention the National Union of Iraqi Students, the arm of the Ba'th Party, and that it was established in the college of medicine in November 1961.
      What surprises me is that Naser twists facts of history to suit his political affiliations, giving people a bigger role than they really had.
      The first President of NUIS was Muqdad Al-Ani from the College of Medicine. His deputy was Adil Abdul-Mahdi, whom Naser surprisingly claims was not a leader. Instead he mentions Al-Shakra, Dabdab and Al-Mulla, without telling us what their positions in the hierarchy of the leadership of the NUIS or the student movements in 1961 was….
      The reason why Naser mentioned those names (in my opinion) is because they later became Ministers in the Ba’th governments, while the original founders of the NUIS and the leaders of the student movement of the 1960s had either left the party or were purged during the several purges of the party in the 1970s and 1980s. This way, those who are not part of the regime are not given any credit and are pushed into the back, and are then replaced by people who had a small role or no role at all. This is how history is re-written!
      I already mentioned that in 1961 Allawi was not a leader but a junior party operative. But those who know the history of the NUIS would know that Adil Abdul-Mahdi was a leader, and his later changes and twists shouldn’t be a reason to change history! So either Naser has not lived that era and thus doesn’t know the facts firsthand, or then for some reason he is presenting a wrong picture of people and events.
      The biggest surprise I got from the message was when Naser mentioned that he couldn’t find any support to the news of the students strikes of 1968! Either Naser was too young to have known the happenings, or he was not in Baghdad at that time, or that he did not attend university in those years. A happening of that magnitude does not disappear from the records of history and I am certain that a search in the internet would yield results. But surely Naser must remember the ONLY students election in the 1960s in the University of Baghdad?
      The demonstrations of 1967 were mostly instantaneous as a reaction to the defeat of the Arab armies at the hands of Israel. Arif’s regime was not responsible for the defeat, and the demonstrations included all factions of the Iraqi society. The strongest political movement at that time were the Arab Nationalists (Nasserites) who formed the largest number of demonstrators. The demonstrations reached the Presidential Palace and attacked the American Embassy which was next to it and tore the American flag. As such they were not demonstrations of opposition to the regime nor is it fair to give the credit to Al-Bakir or the Ba’th.
      Naser tries to compensate for his lack of knowledge (or inability to refute facts of history) with sarcasm, and I will not bother with such remarks! And yes I am certain of what I am saying and I personally saw Nadhim Kizar (with is gun!) enter one college and threaten strikers and was told by friends how Saddam himself entered another college! So yes, I am an eyewitness!
      But if Naser doesn’t know about the students strikes, how does he know whether or not Kizar or Saddam entered colleges? Is it simply because he is loyal to the party? And is that how history is to be written; as the party itself ordains?
      Then Naser again tries to present two messages of mine as contradictory, while he himself misses the point.
      I explained earlier that when the elections of 1967 were annulled, the students went on strike. The Ba’th was cooperating with Ibrahim Al-Daoud and Abdul-Razzaq An-Naif to overthrow the Arif regime. An-Naif sent the army to storm the college of education and arrest, beat and harass students. The deans of all the colleges of the University of Baghdad defended the sanctity of the university campus and threatened with mass resignation should the army or police enter another college. That threat brought results and the security forces backed down and remained outside the college buildings. The student strikers remained inside their colleges afraid to go out lest they are arrested by the security forces as happened to some of their colleagues. For that reason and because the attempts to break the strike from outside by force failed, and in what was seemingly a coordinated move, the Ba’th sent its men to put pressure on the students from inside their colleges and force them to back up. So in a sense, the Ba’th collaborated with the Arif regime by collaborating with An-Naif, no matter how that collaboration is explained later on. The harassments, threats, arrests and intimidations brought the results envisaged and the strike withered out and ended.  
      I did not say that the Ba’th had no role in the political activities during the Arif era or that it was against these activities. I said that it was a small party with a weak base which did not have wide support among the people. When it took over in 1968 its membership was only a few thousand and Naser should know that. Ahmad Hasan Al-Bakir had already in 1965 publicly announced his retirement and withdrawal from politics and his concentrating on tending to his family and caring for his cattle! If one is to believe what Al-Daoud (one of the leaders of the 1968 coup) said, then one would believe that Saddam Hussain and Karim Al-Sheikhly both worked as informers for the security police! But these are allegations whose authenticity can’t be proven either way, and if any documents existed then they would have long since disappeared together with the people who knew anything about them!
      The strikes would have been in the benefit of the Ba’th had the party been behind them and had the strikes been started and steered by the Ba’th. But the Ba’th’s involvement in the coming coup was going to happen through its military branch (officers like Al-Bakir, Hardan Al-Tikriti. Sadun Ghaidan and Salih Amash) and not through its political civilian wing. The student strikes might have made other officers of other political affiliations (including the Nasserites), dissatisfied with the way things were going, to move and take over the presidential palace, which was all that was needed to overthrow the regime. This was not in the best interest of Al-Daoud, An-Naif or Al-Bakir, who wanted to rule themselves
      Everybody who knows the history of the Ba’th in Iraq knows also that the party suffered a split following the takeover by Abdul-Salam Arif on 18 November 1963. This was preceded by an attack by officers (some were Ba’thists) on a conference of the leadership of the party on 13 November 1963 and the arrest of several members of the leadership (including its secretary general) and their deportation outside Iraq. Behind the whole move were Ba’th leaders, Hazim Jewad and Talib Shibeeb, who wanted to take over the party.
      In 1966, when elements of the Syrian Ba’ath took over the Party and the state in Syria and ousted Aflaq and his group, the  Ba’ath in Iraq also split along the same lines, with the (Rightist) Ba’ath of Al-Bakir siding with Aflaq and the other group (Leftist) Ba’ath siding with the new Syrian leadership.
      Terms like “legitimate leadership” are political jargon and a matter of interpretation, but do belong to the facts of history. The coup of 1968 was originated by officers in the army who were connected to foreign countries (An-Naif and Al-Daoud) and the Ba’th joined in through its officers and then took over. I am not saying that the Ba’th worked for or with the CIA, but it perhaps used the opportunity to come to power knowing what affiliations those officers had. The Ba’th itself later accused some of those officers of collaborating with foreign security agencies!
      After 1968, the faction called (Leftist Ba’th) ended up crushed in Iraq; some joined the new regime, some were imprisoned and some left Iraq. Animosity between the two factions of Iraq and Syria reached a stage of setting car bombs in each others’ cities, assassinations and in Syria standing against Iraq during its war with Iran and then when it was attacked in 1991. Yet Naser wants us to believe that the Ba’th did not split!
      For those members of the group who do not know, it should be mentioned that “Mohammad Younis Al-Ahmad” to whom Naser referred was a member of the Ba’th Party of Iraq until the collapse of the regime after the invasion. He was not a member of the so called (Leftist) Ba’th faction of Syria, and thus mentioning him in this context is misleading and has nothing to do with this discussion. We are not to discuss events after the 2003 invasion.
      I hope I have managed in shedding light on some issues. I apologize if the discussion is moving away from its original path, but that is not my doing!
      I stand by my words and kindly ask Naser to check matters that he admits he doesn’t know before writing about them.
      Best regards

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    • Wafaa' Al-Natheema
      Thank you, all, for your participation in the discusion and in providing the information. I may not be able to comment on everything being presented, so I will
      Message 138 of 138 , Feb 28, 2008
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        Thank you, all, for your participation in the discusion and in providing
        the information.
        I may not be able to comment on everything being presented, so I will
        follow up later:
        Walaa', thank you so much for starting a Wikipedia account.  Indeed some
        advance matters related to editing and discussion in Wikipedia need further learning.
        I agree with you completely on the fact that we should create a team of those who
        are Savy on the Internet world and programming to help us make our writing/editing task
        easier and most importantly effective.
        Indeed, the CIA has been reported to tamper with information on Wikipedia and
        those who maintain it found out from the IP code.  A couple of articles were being
        circled on the internet last year about this matter.
        George,  many thanks to you for providing the information about Rumi.  It was
        a mistake (and I don't know why I wrote it) to state that RUMI lived in Balkh,
        Afghanistan all through his teen years.  Indeed his family left (with him) when he was
        a young child; some sources indicate only that, others specify that his age was
        five or six.  He was born in 1207 CE (604 hijriya - Islamic year). 
        Rita and Amr, thank you for your interest in Jabir bin Hayyan al-Kufi.  Being an
        Iraqi born and raised, his accomplishments should be highlighted here as he
        is the most suitable (of all the previously mentioned scholars: RUMI, al-Farabi
        and Ibn Sina) for our group's purpose.
        Thanks again,
        Wafaa' Al-Natheema


        Rita C-S <cohen_sharaf@...> wrote:
        Thank you so much, Wafaa', George and others, for this oceanic information and interesting reading.
        I too got involved in reading over the Internet about Avicenna, Al-Kufi and Rumi.  Both Avicenna
        and especially Rumi are popular in the west.
        About your information, George, I think you forgot to mention Damascus as one of the cities
        Rumi's family had visited and lived in for some time before they settled in Qunia.  But due to my

        Arab pharmacist husband, we both would like to study this great chemist, Jabir b. Hayan Al-Kufi,
        who is sadly unknown in western popular culture!   Also English speakers who
        don't know Arabic may not know what "Khalife" means (which is used in George's note).  It is usually
        written "Caliph", which means 'successor'. 
        I hope the information and discussion attract some interest in other subscribers in this group to learn about him

        and share their knowledge, discuss al-Kufi or make inquiry about him.
        Thanks again for activating this group AGAIN,
        Best Wishes,
        Rita Cohen-Sharaf

        To: iraqhistory@ yahoogroups. com
        From: georgemichael1956@ hotmail.com
        Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:09:27 -0500
        Subject: RE: [IRAQHistory] Urgent + Rumi

        Dear Wafaa:
        Your emails for the past two days have been greatly educational and informative.  Thank you so much.
        I have always known Rumi to be Persian and indeed not one English source (and I have four books about his Sufi poetry) mentions his Arab anscestry.  I don't blame you for being concerned and even angry.  So I decided to look into Arabic sources.
        My Arab son-in-law has two volumes on Rumi written by Abdul Salam Kafafi, which detailed his life, education, poetry and wisdom.  In this valuable source, it indicates that Rumi's;
        father's name is Mohammed bin al-Husain al-Khatibi and his lineage goes to the Khalife 
        Abu Bakr al-Siddiq
        mother's name is unavailable, but she was documented as being from the Khawarizm Shah family, which is most probably Persian.
        In this Arabic source, it indeed indicates that his nickname RUMI was given to him because he lived
        most of his Sufi adult life and died in Anatolia (in Greek) or Anadolu (in Turkish). 
        So you are right he should be considered half Arab/half Persian, and right about the fact that he was
        born in Balkh/Afghanistan and died in today's Turkey.
        When Jalalul Dine Rumi was five years old, his father left Balkh to Niasapur, then to Baghdad and later to Mecca, then they left to Larand, and finally settled in Konya (also spelled Qunia), which is in Anadolu, today's Turkey and died there. 
        What was interesting in this new piece of information that you provided, and thank you indeed, was
        that when both my son-in-law and I googled his name in English, we found not on written article indicating
        that his father was an Arab or that he was an Arab or Afghani (due to his birth and early childhood). 
        We were surprised to even find this article in Arabic on Islam on line  http://www.islamonl ine.net/arabic/ history/1422/ 08/article24. shtml that according to my son-in-law, it points his birth being in Persia and it does not specify his father's Arabness or mentions his name.  In fact it states,
        "it has been said that his family goes back to Khalife Abu Bakr al-Siddiq."  Using "it has been said" does not necessarily make it factual information.  Yet it does not use the same terminology "it has been said" with pointing the name of his mother's family/clan, insteadit provides it as a fact!  
        When he explained to me these different uses, I remembered the language they used in English to argue al-Farabi's origin in the link you provided.  They provided sources for his Persian origin, yet for his Turkic origin,
        they used the term "claim"
        We too googled the Iraqi Arab chemist guru and could find nothing about him on Wikipedia in both Arabic and English.  I read few pages about his accomplishments in other English sources and was very, very impressed
        by his discoveries, which we, the public, know nothing about here in the USA.
        Thanks again,
        George Michael

        To: IRAQHistory@ yahoogroups. com
        From: aboutfromiraq@ yahoo.com
        Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:09:38 -0800
        Subject: Re: [IRAQHistory] Urgent + Welcoming New Member

        Dear Ellen:
        Thank you so much for forwarding my email to Audrey.
        I hope you forwarded the other email I sent yesterday under the subject title of
        "Urgent -- Save History" and not the one with subject title "..+ Welcoming New Member". 
        In that other one, and I hope you received it, you will read that I was not only concerned about the Arab or Iraqi origin of Islamic scholars, but MOSTLY about Persianization; relating every great thing and person to Persia with no concrete evidence, but propaganda, claims and favoriticism.
        Because Ibn Sina and al-Farabi are not known whether they have came in
        from Arab or Persian parents, to claim them Persians is INVALID.  They
        both were born and raised in areas far from today's Iran, such as Afghanistan
        and Uzbekistan.  Yet westerners, who favor Persians over Arabs, and Iranians
        (and some Indians and Pakistanis) would commit Persianization in their
        I have been concerned and angry at the writers and historians in the east and west who claimed RUMI to be Persian including the Indian infamous doctor (living in the USA) Deepak Chopra when he published a book of poetry on Rumi.  This categorization is beyond DEADLY WRONG.  The man was born and raised during his childhood and teenage years in Balkh, Afghanistan.  His father was a reputable Arab, known to be a wise religious man, and [RUMI] had lived a large chunk of his life between Baghdad, Damascus and Mecca and then lived for many years and died in a city in today's Turkey.  His mother was rarely mentioned in documentation, historic sources and there is descrapencies about her origin, YET HE IS CONSIDERED PERSIAN JUST BECAUSE HIS MOTHER MAY HAVE BEEN PERSIAN AND THAT HE WROTE MOST OF HIS IMPORTANT WORK IN PERSIAN LANGUAGE.  This is nothing, but corrupted history documentation.  Even if his mother was a Persian, he should not be considered PERSIAN only, he would be categorized as half Persian/half Arab. 
        The contradiction is that we live in a male-dominated world whereby the religion and ethnicity of the father is SUPERIOR to that of the mother (which personally I disagree with
        and don't think it is fair) and passes to the offsprings, yet this rule is true with all, but not with Arabs.  If the mother is anything else, her background counts.  That is how much discrediting and discrimination have been taken place with regard to Arabs.  In fact in the 20/21 centuries, the nationality (not the ethnicity) of a person is being determined by the location (city and country) in which the person is born.  Knowing where Rumi was born, shouldn't he be considered an Afghani?   Perhaps an Afghani of Arab descent? Or because there majesty the industrial west is at war with Afghanistan, then it is fine to slash them out from history pages!!
        I hope you forwarded the other email to Audrey, which is entitled "Urgent -- Save History".
        All I hope from those who spend so many hours of their time on the Internet is to spend 15 to 20 minutes daily monitoring Wikipedia, and at least the links that I have provided yesterday, which requires serious editing, and perhaps other links related to the subject matter of Iraqis and the history of Iraq.
        Thanks again for forwarding my email,
        Wafaa' Al-Natheema

        EWasfi@... wrote:
        Dear Wafaa',
        I have forwarded your concerns about information available on Arab women musicians in pre-and-post Islam as well as on the Arab origins of Moslem polymaths and scholars to Audrey Shabbas of Arab World and Islamic Resources and School Services (AWAIR), based in California. Hopefully, she has access to resources which can be of assistance.  I have know Audrey for many years and at one time I contributed to a chapter on the role of women in Islamic Spain in a volume she edited called "A Medieval Banquet at the Alhambra Palace." I believe I have mentioned her name to you in the past.
        I hope this is a fruitful connection.

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