Re: [IRAQHistory] Follow up on Aref's documentary film
- Dear Wafaa'
Thanks for your effort to document an era of Iraq's history.
There will not be any material from Iraq on the late President Arif simply because none was available at the time outside the official channels. People did not have VCR's yet! And the archives of the Iraqi Broadcasting organization would have either destroyed material related to Arif when the Ba'th came to power in 1979 or then they were destroyed when the whole complex was destroyed after the "noble" act of the "liberation" á la Bush of 2003. But perhaps the Egyptian Broadcasting organization might have.
I have not received the message of Abdul Kareem to which you referred neither was it posted on the group's page. It would be interesting to read what he said, being a minister in the government.
My personal impression of that period is that it was a period of weakness and chaos in Iraq; at least regarding the way with which the government responded to students' demands. In the Spring of 1968, the students in the University of Baghdad went on strike because of certain demands for political reform, but the government responded by storming the College of Education in Bab al-Muadham and arrested student. That brought about strong protests from the students all over Baghdad and was seen as an act never done before, the university campus being considered forbidden to the police or military. The strike widened and colleges were surrounded by police cars and squads and more arrests took place. We were students then and faced the harassment of the police who stopped us when we left and interrogated us as to whether or not we were pro- or against the strike. The strike went on for weeks and there were also demonstrations which were faced with force by the police.
Strange enough, the only political entity that opposed the strike was the Ba'th Party (the group led by Ahmad Hassan al Bakr) who even sent (Nadhim Kizar/ later head of intelligence) to threaten strike leaders and break it up. The explanation given after July 17, 1968 was that the Ba'th was preparing a coup and did not want anyone else to beat them to power!
That is what I remember and I hope it does not hurt anyone's feelings!
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
- Thank you, all, for your participation in the discusion and in providingthe information.I may not be able to comment on everything being presented, so I willfollow up later:Walaa', thank you so much for starting a Wikipedia account. Indeed someadvance matters related to editing and discussion in Wikipedia need further learning.I agree with you completely on the fact that we should create a team of those whoare Savy on the Internet world and programming to help us make our writing/editing taskeasier and most importantly effective.Indeed, the CIA has been reported to tamper with information on Wikipedia andthose who maintain it found out from the IP code. A couple of articles were beingcircled on the internet last year about this matter.George, many thanks to you for providing the information about Rumi. It wasa mistake (and I don't know why I wrote it) to state that RUMI lived in Balkh,Afghanistan all through his teen years. Indeed his family left (with him) when he wasa young child; some sources indicate only that, others specify that his age wasfive or six. He was born in 1207 CE (604 hijriya - Islamic year).Rita and Amr, thank you for your interest in Jabir bin Hayyan al-Kufi. Being anIraqi born and raised, his accomplishments should be highlighted here as heis the most suitable (of all the previously mentioned scholars: RUMI, al-Farabiand Ibn Sina) for our group's purpose.Thanks again,Wafaa' Al-Natheema
Rita C-S <cohen_sharaf@...> wrote:Thank you so much, Wafaa', George and others, for this oceanic information and interesting reading.
I too got involved in reading over the Internet about Avicenna, Al-Kufi and Rumi. Both Avicenna
and especially Rumi are popular in the west.
About your information, George, I think you forgot to mention Damascus as one of the cities
Rumi's family had visited and lived in for some time before they settled in Qunia. But due to my
Arab pharmacist husband, we both would like to study this great chemist, Jabir b. Hayan Al-Kufi,
who is sadly unknown in western popular culture! Also English speakers who
don't know Arabic may not know what "Khalife" means (which is used in George's note). It is usually
written "Caliph", which means 'successor'.
I hope the information and discussion attract some interest in other subscribers in this group to learn about him
and share their knowledge, discuss al-Kufi or make inquiry about him.
Thanks again for activating this group AGAIN,
To: iraqhistory@ yahoogroups. com
From: georgemichael1956@ hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:09:27 -0500
Subject: RE: [IRAQHistory] Urgent + RumiDear Wafaa:
Your emails for the past two days have been greatly educational and informative. Thank you so much.
I have always known Rumi to be Persian and indeed not one English source (and I have four books about his Sufi poetry) mentions his Arab anscestry. I don't blame you for being concerned and even angry. So I decided to look into Arabic sources.
My Arab son-in-law has two volumes on Rumi written by Abdul Salam Kafafi, which detailed his life, education, poetry and wisdom. In this valuable source, it indicates that Rumi's;
father's name is Mohammed bin al-Husain al-Khatibi and his lineage goes to the Khalife
Abu Bakr al-Siddiq
mother's name is unavailable, but she was documented as being from the Khawarizm Shah family, which is most probably Persian.
In this Arabic source, it indeed indicates that his nickname RUMI was given to him because he lived
most of his Sufi adult life and died in Anatolia (in Greek) or Anadolu (in Turkish).
So you are right he should be considered half Arab/half Persian, and right about the fact that he was
born in Balkh/Afghanistan and died in today's Turkey.
When Jalalul Dine Rumi was five years old, his father left Balkh to Niasapur, then to Baghdad and later to Mecca, then they left to Larand, and finally settled in Konya (also spelled Qunia), which is in Anadolu, today's Turkey and died there.
What was interesting in this new piece of information that you provided, and thank you indeed, was
that when both my son-in-law and I googled his name in English, we found not on written article indicating
that his father was an Arab or that he was an Arab or Afghani (due to his birth and early childhood).
We were surprised to even find this article in Arabic on Islam on line http://www.islamonl ine.net/arabic/ history/1422/ 08/article24. shtml that according to my son-in-law, it points his birth being in Persia and it does not specify his father's Arabness or mentions his name. In fact it states,
"it has been said that his family goes back to Khalife Abu Bakr al-Siddiq." Using "it has been said" does not necessarily make it factual information. Yet it does not use the same terminology "it has been said" with pointing the name of his mother's family/clan, insteadit provides it as a fact!
When he explained to me these different uses, I remembered the language they used in English to argue al-Farabi's origin in the link you provided. They provided sources for his Persian origin, yet for his Turkic origin,
they used the term "claim"
We too googled the Iraqi Arab chemist guru and could find nothing about him on Wikipedia in both Arabic and English. I read few pages about his accomplishments in other English sources and was very, very impressed
by his discoveries, which we, the public, know nothing about here in the USA.
To: IRAQHistory@ yahoogroups. com
From: aboutfromiraq@ yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:09:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [IRAQHistory] Urgent + Welcoming New MemberDear Ellen:Thank you so much for forwarding my email to Audrey.I hope you forwarded the other email I sent yesterday under the subject title of"Urgent -- Save History" and not the one with subject title "..+ Welcoming New Member".In that other one, and I hope you received it, you will read that I was not only concerned about the Arab or Iraqi origin of Islamic scholars, but MOSTLY about Persianization; relating every great thing and person to Persia with no concrete evidence, but propaganda, claims and favoriticism.Because Ibn Sina and al-Farabi are not known whether they have came infrom Arab or Persian parents, to claim them Persians is INVALID. Theyboth were born and raised in areas far from today's Iran, such as Afghanistanand Uzbekistan. Yet westerners, who favor Persians over Arabs, and Iranians(and some Indians and Pakistanis) would commit Persianization in theirdocumentation.I have been concerned and angry at the writers and historians in the east and west who claimed RUMI to be Persian including the Indian infamous doctor (living in the USA) Deepak Chopra when he published a book of poetry on Rumi. This categorization is beyond DEADLY WRONG. The man was born and raised during his childhood and teenage years in Balkh, Afghanistan. His father was a reputable Arab, known to be a wise religious man, and [RUMI] had lived a large chunk of his life between Baghdad, Damascus and Mecca and then lived for many years and died in a city in today's Turkey. His mother was rarely mentioned in documentation, historic sources and there is descrapencies about her origin, YET HE IS CONSIDERED PERSIAN JUST BECAUSE HIS MOTHER MAY HAVE BEEN PERSIAN AND THAT HE WROTE MOST OF HIS IMPORTANT WORK IN PERSIAN LANGUAGE. This is nothing, but corrupted history documentation. Even if his mother was a Persian, he should not be considered PERSIAN only, he would be categorized as half Persian/half Arab.The contradiction is that we live in a male-dominated world whereby the religion and ethnicity of the father is SUPERIOR to that of the mother (which personally I disagree withand don't think it is fair) and passes to the offsprings, yet this rule is true with all, but not with Arabs. If the mother is anything else, her background counts. That is how much discrediting and discrimination have been taken place with regard to Arabs. In fact in the 20/21 centuries, the nationality (not the ethnicity) of a person is being determined by the location (city and country) in which the person is born. Knowing where Rumi was born, shouldn't he be considered an Afghani? Perhaps an Afghani of Arab descent? Or because there majesty the industrial west is at war with Afghanistan, then it is fine to slash them out from history pages!!I hope you forwarded the other email to Audrey, which is entitled "Urgent -- Save History".All I hope from those who spend so many hours of their time on the Internet is to spend 15 to 20 minutes daily monitoring Wikipedia, and at least the links that I have provided yesterday, which requires serious editing, and perhaps other links related to the subject matter of Iraqis and the history of Iraq.Thanks again for forwarding my email,Wafaa' Al-Natheema
EWasfi@... wrote:Dear Wafaa',I have forwarded your concerns about information available on Arab women musicians in pre-and-post Islam as well as on the Arab origins of Moslem polymaths and scholars to Audrey Shabbas of Arab World and Islamic Resources and School Services (AWAIR), based in California. Hopefully, she has access to resources which can be of assistance. I have know Audrey for many years and at one time I contributed to a chapter on the role of women in Islamic Spain in a volume she edited called "A Medieval Banquet at the Alhambra Palace." I believe I have mentioned her name to you in the past.I hope this is a fruitful connection.Ellen
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