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Re: [ICG-D] Re: [siliconweb] Con Photography, a Modest Proposal

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  • Richard Man
    Folks, If I have spare cash, I will go travel and take photos. This is more likely in Southwest canyonland or if budget really willing, China. Worldcon and
    Message 1 of 136 , May 31, 2013
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      Folks,

      If I have spare cash, I will go travel and take photos. This is more likely
      in Southwest canyonland or if budget really willing, China. Worldcon and
      Costume Con will be from that budget.

      I understand that there will always be talented photographers wanting to
      get into the game of exposure and volunteerism. More power to them and to
      you all.




      On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Jill Eastlake <jill@...> wrote:

      > Hi,
      >
      > If Richard was out several thousands of dollars in equipment at a recent
      > convention, and no doubt he was, he should send a request to the convention
      > with an itemized list of what was lost and how it was lost, in hopes of
      > recovering some of the value. I would add, though, that if he didn't tell
      > the convention beforehand what he was bringing and what it was worth, he
      > has to realize he may not get anything.
      >
      > Jill
      >
      >
      > On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:36 PM, kenw0001 <notvicki@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Elaine, apology accepted.
      > >
      > > I agree about the tip jar's (in)appropriateness, and will go further and
      > > say that photographers should not expect to make a profit in the sense of
      > > covering all expenses (I could give you a ridiculously long list of what
      > > should be considered an "expense") with money left over. All they should
      > > look for is to not be out of pocket on consumables.
      > >
      > > But photographers should be able to expect a convention to make them
      > whole
      > > for unusual losses (damage/destruction/theft of equipment). Richard was
      > out
      > > of pocket to the tune of several thousand dollars after a recent-ish
      > large
      > > convention. That's a really bad way to do business for all involved, and
      > > leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth in general.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Mami <ecmami@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Ken,
      > > >
      > > > I apologize for the way that sounded. Photographers are like tech, and
      > > they get as much as any con can afford. Unfortunately, my co-chair & I
      > had
      > > to fight for everything we provided for tech, as well as for the
      > > photographer. We also had to defend his right to charge *anything* for
      > his
      > > photos at all!
      > > >
      > > > We were a bit hamstrung by a local committee used only to local SF cons
      > > with a membership as small as most CCs, (AZ is large but sparsely
      > > populated) but with no CC experience. The photographers are all locals,
      > who
      > > are mostly hobbyists, and they *only* shoot the small masquerades.
      > > >
      > > > The fact that we were *allowing* him to charge for his work after being
      > > *given* what they considered excessive was surprising - but they also
      > > fought us over giving tech *a free ride!*
      > > >
      > > > Not all CCs are held in places with experienced CC runners, and when
      > > tech of all varieties are local hobbyists, there is a disconnect.
      > > >
      > > > I think a *tip jar* is inappropriate. I don't see a voluntary donation
      > > section will get much attention. I do, however, think CCs should publish
      > > the prices of photos, CDs, etc in advance so members will know what is
      > > ahead. Not that that will solve the problem. As you said, we are all in a
      > > money crunch right now, and everyone has a digital camera or cell phone.
      > > >
      > > > Personally, I'd rather have the CD or video. Especially when I am
      > either
      > > helping or entering a masquerade, because I didn't get to actually see
      > it,
      > > after all.
      > > >
      > > > I have no solution. Sorry.
      > > >
      > > > Elaine
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Mami <ecmami@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I must agree with Dave. Also, unlike the dealers, you usually have
      > > your membership(s) free, and often a room to store your equipment - also
      > > free.
      > > > > > Please don't bite the hand that feeds.
      > > > > > Elaine Mami
      > > > > > Who knows exactly how much you were given by CC30
      > > > >
      > > > > Frankly, Elaine, it's unreasonable to ask someone who is generally
      > > unable to attend *any* convention function other than in a "working" role
      > > to pay for a membership. At a general SF con, I walk in, visit Larry
      > Smith,
      > > sometimes see the Art Show (which may not be fully set up), and then get
      > > busy with photography. I don't "attend the convention". As for equipment
      > > storage, there's an advantage to the convention in providing that room,
      > not
      > > just to the photographer.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, as *you* say, please don't bite the hand that feeds.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      // richard <http://www.imagecraft.com/>
      // icc blog: <http://imagecraft.com/blog/>
      // richard's personal photo blog: <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
      [ For technical support on ImageCraft products, please include all previous
      replies in your msgs. ]


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • karisu_sama
      As both a costumer and the assistant to an award-winning photographer who typically shoots (pun intended) for gallery and portrait quality, I have always had
      Message 136 of 136 , May 31, 2013
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        As both a costumer and the assistant to an award-winning photographer who
        typically shoots (pun intended) for gallery and portrait quality, I have always
        had the highest respect and admiration for serious skilled practitioners of both
        arts. If an artist is also involved in commercial work, I also do not believe it
        reduces the artist in any way (e.g.: a costumer who may do custom commissions.)

        AND, I assumed (I forgot that one should never assume), I was part of a community of reasonable people who might disagree on various principles, but at least would try to treat each other with due courtesy, respect and empathy.

        I would never have expected members of what I thought was "my community" to
        demote a skilled photographer, who wanted to volunteer his skills to what HE
        thought was his community, to "filthy huckster" level. It's not like you/we are
        trying to or hoping to make any actual profit from cons.

        Kudos to you, my husband, for (foolishly) believing it was your honorable obligated duty to meet your promise to provide photography, even when the situation developed such that you knew you'd be out a lot of money AND we were already so strapped that I could not afford to go to the con with you.

        Someone who knew our family's situation claims they did you a "huge favor" by taking the time to convincing some rather "ill-informed and provincially-minded" parties (I'm practicing restraint here; the term I originally thought of involved the word "bat----") just to do the reasonable, normal and proper things, but then this someone backstabs you as supposedly "gouging" due to said reasonable, normal & proper things?

        Perhaps you should NOT feel obligated to meet your promises anymore. Warm body volunteers in other positions that most anyone else can fill pull out at the last minute if they can't afford to attend, obviously costumers do too. So, maybe a quality photographer is a much tougher position to replace at the last minute?? TOO DAMNED BAD. Don't BOTHER to be so honorable to people who have no respect for you and what you do. You DON'T have any obligation to people like that.

        The amount of post-con culling and computer pre-processing time is taken *directly* out of your work hours that actually pay the family bills. Other volunteers, I would bet money that I don't have, aren't taking unpaid leave from their jobs to volunteer for a con. I shan't deign to answer any uninformed (I'd rather use a ruder term, but I'm practicing restraint) comments about "aw gee we're ALL out travel expenses so wats yer stinkin problem". There is nothing that is remotely polite that I can say to such people.

        I guess I'm learning a lot about previously-unrevealed double standards held by some members of the community, and about just who real friends are vs. who will gladly kick you when you're down. Problem is this thread is not turning out to be about simple disagreements. HOW people are saying things is revealing a lot about them, and it isn't pretty, but it's damned good to know where you stand.



        --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Richard Man <richard@...> wrote:
        >
        > I must admit that no one ever force me to do the photography. I volunteered.
        >
        > It's enlightening to see the true characters coming out.
        >
        >
        > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 9:04 PM, karisu_sama <karisu@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Mami <ecmami@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > I must agree with Dave. Also, unlike the dealers, you usually have your
        > > membership(s) free, and often a room to store your equipment - also free.
        > > > Who knows exactly how much you were given by CC30
        > >
        > > What is that sentence supposed to be insinuating?
        > >
        > > Richard was given:
        > >
        > > Said free membership: (AKA a badge which allowed him to walk around a
        > > space that he was working in without getting harassed by the con. As Ken
        > > said, it's unreasonable to ask someone who is generally unable to attend
        > > *any* convention function other than in a "working" role to pay for a
        > > membership.)
        > >
        > > A room for the photography to occur in (AKA con function space for this
        > > planned function) in which oh by the way he could leave his equipment in
        > > between sessions, because the door could be locked to prevent theft, as it
        > > would be in the best interest of the con for him not to have to do a full
        > > teardown / re-setup each time he leaves it and return. Repeat: This was CON
        > > FUNCTION SPACE. No one has ever given us a "free storage room".
        > >
        > > That's it.
        > > ...Were you expecting extra that is somehow "not being disclosed"?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > // richard <http://www.imagecraft.com/>
        > // icc blog: <http://imagecraft.com/blog/>
        > // richard's personal photo blog: <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
        > [ For technical support on ImageCraft products, please include all previous
        > replies in your msgs. ]
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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