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Hey Gang, a question. :)

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  • kaijugal
    Hello everyone, Here is a question many of us here have been bandying about for some time without comming up with a solid answer. It suddenly occured to me
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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      Hello everyone,

      Here is a question many of us here have been bandying about for some
      time without comming up with a solid answer. It suddenly occured to
      me that this is the perfect place to search for the answer.

      What we want to know is, What qualifies a masquerade event to be
      an "official ICG masquerade"?

      Here we have four conventions using the ICG Divisional systems for
      masquerade. Many of the people who attend these conventions attended,
      (and won ^_^ ), at the Torcon Masquerade.

      1)Toronto Trek which has been running 19 years, had an attendance of
      roughtly 1000 members last year and has an average masquerade of 40-
      50 entries. The masquerade has been run long time by Barb Schofield
      using the divisional system. (I know several of you are familiar with
      this convention, I've met Carol Salemi and Ricky Dick there in the
      past at very least, and of course I actually know Jacqueline Ward
      and Barb as they are local.) http://www.tcon.ca/tt20/

      2) Ad Astra, currently in it's 24th year. Attendance figures slightly
      below those of Toronto Trek. Run as a divisional masquerade. Average
      masquerade entries 20-30 It has had several directors in the past but
      is currently run by Amanda Irwin. http://ad-astra.org/

      3) Anime North, currently in it's 9th year. Attendance figures this
      year were 10,000. We have been a divisional masquerade from the
      beginning and follow the workmanship and other judging standards as
      set forth by the guild. The masquerade came into being under the
      guidance of Derwin Mak, and has since been directed by Caroline
      Julian, and then myself in subsequent years. There is usuallly
      anywhere between 60-140 entries. www.animenorth.com

      4) The Canadian National Expo. The attendance is an adverage of
      30,000 fans. There has been a divisional style masquerade for the
      last seven years. The first five years directed by Barb Schofield and
      Martin Miller and these last two years directed by myself. There have
      been 60 entries the past 2 years. This years masquerade was knock
      your socks of lovely, and the talent of the costumers involved is
      truely starting to frighten me. ^_^" *chuckles*
      http://www.hobbystar.com/ComicConTorontoV2/CC_Main.asp

      That is a brief overview of our four largest local conventions. I
      can answer any further questions you have to help you answer my
      question. I'm not completely ignorant of ICG matters but I'm
      definately not 100% in the know either. *rueful grin* Any help
      answering this question would be appriciated.

      Cheers!
      ~ Dawn McKechnie. (aka the Torcon Godzilla)
    • Alixandra Jordan
      Dear Dawn: What we want to know is, What qualifies a masquerade event to be an official ICG masquerade ? I d like to know that as well. 2) Ad Astra, currently
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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        Dear Dawn:

        What we want to know is, What qualifies a masquerade event to be an
        "official ICG masquerade"?
        I'd like to know that as well.


        2) Ad Astra, currently in it's 24th year. Attendance figures slightly below
        those of Toronto Trek. Run as a divisional masquerade. Average masquerade
        entries 20-30 It has had several directors in the past but is currently run
        by Amanda Irwin. http://ad-astra.org/
        For a long time, Ad Astra was not very costumer friendly. The last
        masquerade that I attended there was a number of years ago, but it only had
        a little over a dozen entries, and most of these were "Mum's old drawers"
        style costuming. I understand that they are trying to get the costumers to
        start attending again, and that Gord Rose is running the masquerade
        programming. However, there are years where Ad Astra has only around three
        hundred members. Again, this may have changed, but does size of the
        masquerade have anything to do with international status.


        4) The Canadian National Expo. The attendance is an adverage of 30,000 fans.
        There has been a divisional style masquerade for the last seven years.
        This is the one that I truly question, since it is not a fan run
        convention; it is a strickly for profit media convention that happens to
        have a masquerade. Does is matter?
        But you are right; we have to decide this. Frankly, if all that matters is
        that people attend from a number of countries, then there are a lot more
        masquerades that should be given international status. Westercon comes to
        mind. Dragoncon. Toronto Trek and Ad Astra.
        Decisions need to be made. And remember that this day was coming ever since
        CostumeCon was granted international status. Unless we can come up with very
        good reasons why CostumeCon, which has a very small attendance, a small
        masquearde, and which usually gets only two or three attendees, who are not
        American qualifies for international status, and other larger conventions do
        not, then we've got a problem, and sooner or later, these conventions are
        going to be demanding to know why. And we can't say that it's the caliber of
        the costumes because many members have been arguing that a "Best in Show" at
        a local/regional convention should have the right to enter in either
        "Journyman" or "Master" levels. Oh, and I remember some people arguing that
        a "Best in Show" at a regional or local convention could not enter a
        Worldcon.
        Peace
        Alixandra
        eddana@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alixandra Jordan
        Gentlebeings: It s one of those days. How to find an answer? Ask a number of other people, then you ll see what is under your nose. In order for a masquerade
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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          Gentlebeings:
          It's one of those days. How to find an answer? Ask a number of other
          people, then you'll see what is under your nose.
          In order for a masquerade to have international status, it has to be
          capable of having an internation location. Worldcon floats and can be held
          anywhere in the world, allowing costumers from these countries to compete.
          CostumeCon has been held in Canada and Australia as well as all over The
          States. There for it is an international masquerade.
          I think that works.
          Peace
          Alixandra
          eddana@...


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dawn McKechnie
          ... Well it s a media expo to be sure, but the masqueade is open to everyone and is fan run by our local club the same way and with the same people as all the
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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            >From: Alixandra Jordan <eddana@...>

            >
            >4) The Canadian National Expo. The attendance is an adverage of 30,000
            >fans.
            >There has been a divisional style masquerade for the last seven years.
            > This is the one that I truly question, since it is not a fan run
            >convention; it is a strickly for profit media convention that happens to
            >have a masquerade. Does is matter?
            > But you are right; we have to decide this. Frankly, if all that matters
            >is
            >that people attend from a number of countries, then there are a lot more
            >masquerades that should be given international status. Westercon comes to
            >mind. Dragoncon.

            Well it's a media expo to be sure, but the masqueade is open to everyone and
            is fan run by our local club the same way and with the same people as all
            the other local conventions. The expo altough intially quite cold about the
            whole matter is now greatly supportive and lets me call the shots
            completely. They even pay for it to be held in the Canadian Idol studios.
            Personally if they do not limit who can compete or put any restrictions on
            it that make it unfair or go against the ICG standards , I don't see why
            there should be a problem.

            I belive there are other comic cons that are considered official are there
            not?

            Which is once again why I am asking. ^_^ Thanks .

            I'm running. I want to talk with you more Alix, I've been meanning to call
            you actually. TTYS! :)

            ~Dawn :)
          • Andrew T Trembley
            ... This is my (unofficial) opinion (since there is no documented process). Costume-Con and WorldCon are ICG-recognized masquerades. The organizations (CC more
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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              On Aug 30, 2005, at 3:56 PM, kaijugal wrote:
              > What we want to know is, What qualifies a masquerade event to be
              > an "official ICG masquerade"?

              This is my (unofficial) opinion (since there is no documented process).

              Costume-Con and WorldCon are ICG-recognized masquerades. The
              organizations (CC more explicitly than WorldCon) agreed to operate
              their masquerades in compliance with the ICG guidelines. The ICG
              (membership or board, I'm not sure which) voted to grant the
              competition ICG recognition.

              Knowing that WorldCon committees vary greatly, and aren't primarily
              headed by costumers (but usually select experienced ICG members to
              direct or assist with their competition), we take on faith that they're
              going to keep up their end of the bargain (and in recent decades
              haven't been disappointed). CC is by costumers for costumers, so
              adherence to the guidelines and our traditions is pretty much a given.

              If you wanted to gain ICG recognition for a competition, I would
              suggest putting together a portfolio of its recent history, including
              rules, judging slates, awards given, and perhaps videos of
              competitions, and through an ICG board member submit a motion to grant
              recognition. I expect the board would convene a review committee and
              get recommendation on whether to pass or kill the motion, and then
              vote.

              --
              andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
              http://www.irlm.org/ - mailto:webmaster@...
              "Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
              -- Donna Barr
            • martingear
              Dear Dawn -- First of all, there is no such thing as an OFFICIAL ICG masquerade. We don t have rules, only guidelines. Having said that, from what you ve
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 30, 2005
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                Dear Dawn --

                First of all, there is no such thing as an "OFFICIAL" ICG masquerade.
                We don't have rules, only guidelines. Having said that, from what
                you've written, I would say that any and all of the masquerade
                competitions you've described would qualify as "ICG masquerades" if you
                really want to use the term. (And having gone through at least two
                iterations of the guidelines, please let's not go there again.) YMMV --

                Marty




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • stephentang01
                Hi, I m new here, but I come from the anime con circuit. [Issue 1] So, what makes a masquerade s top awards count towards other cons that follow ICG
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                  Hi,
                  I'm new here, but I come from the anime con circuit.

                  [Issue 1]
                  So, what makes a masquerade's top awards count towards other cons that
                  follow ICG guidelines?

                  In talking to about 3 people who have attended cons under ICG
                  guidelines, I get the impression that the ICG guidelines are
                  completely on the honor system: that is, it is up to the individual to
                  count their major awards and enter a skill division commensurate with
                  their skills (with the masquerade director upgrading or downgrading
                  the entrant if warranted).

                  So, how does one know what major awards should be counted if they
                  don't know if they have been in an ICG con or not? Does any con's
                  major awards count?


                  [Issue 2]
                  Since ICG doesn't have an official process for sanctioning cons, what
                  prevents any cons from making outlandish claims that they are an
                  "ICG-sanctioned con" simply, because they follow ICG guidelines? Does
                  that open the possiblity of cons misrepresenting themselves and
                  confusing the populace?

                  I feel an official ICG-sanctioning process is somewhat important,
                  since there are a number of anime cons (most are fan-run and
                  non-profit) that are starting to use some or all of the ICG guidelines
                  as the basis for their masquerade competition. Can they all claim
                  they are ICG-sanctioned simply because they follow the guidelines? I
                  don't think the ICG would be happy about that, but I can't find
                  anything in the ICG guidelines on the ICG website that would
                  explicitly disallow that. Some cons can claim they use ICG guidelines
                  but then possibly do something not in the spirit of the guidelines.
                  The attendees can be misled and confused and might start to think of
                  ICG guidelines in a bad light.

                  Having ICG-sanctioned cons creates a degree of uniformity among
                  masquerades and makes it easier for attendees (new ones especially) to
                  assess their skill level and be sure the right awards count. Having
                  sanctioned cons also creates a circuit that entrants can tour to test
                  their skills. Long-time costumers have been doing this for so long
                  that it's probably second nature to them, but I think standardization
                  will also help newcomers and reign in those cons who would misuse the
                  ICG guidelines.
                • stephentang01
                  Hi, I m new here, but I come from the anime con world. [Issue 1] What makes a masquerade s top awards count towards other cons that follow ICG guidelines? In
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                    Hi,
                    I'm new here, but I come from the anime con world.

                    [Issue 1]
                    What makes a masquerade's top awards count towards other cons that
                    follow ICG guidelines?

                    In talking to about 3 people who have attended cons under ICG
                    guidelines, I get the impression that the ICG guidelines are
                    completely on the honor system: that is, it is up to the individual to
                    count their major awards and enter a skill division commensurate with
                    their skills (with the masquerade director upgrading or downgrading
                    the entrant if warranted).

                    So, how does one know what major awards should be counted if they
                    don't know if they have been in an ICG con or not? Does any con's
                    major awards count?

                    [Issue 2]
                    Since ICG doesn't have an official process for sanctioning cons, what
                    prevents any cons from making outlandish claims that they are an
                    "ICG-sanctioned con" simply, because they follow ICG guidelines? Does
                    that open the possiblity of cons misrepresenting themselves and
                    confusing the populace?

                    I feel an official ICG-sanctioning process is somewhat important,
                    since there are a number of anime cons (most are fan-run and
                    non-profit) that are starting to use some or all of the ICG guidelines
                    as the basis for their masquerade competition. Can they all claim
                    they are ICG-sanctioned simply because they follow the guidelines? I
                    can't find anything in the ICG guidelines on the ICG website that
                    would explicitly disallow that. Some cons can claim they use ICG
                    guidelines but then possibly do something not in the spirit of the
                    guidelines. The attendees can be misled and confused and might start
                    to think of ICG guidelines in a bad light.

                    Having ICG-sanctioned cons creates a degree of uniformity among
                    masquerades rules and makes it easier for attendees (new) to assess
                    their skill level. Having sanctioned cons also creates a circuit that
                    entrants can tour to test their skills. Long-time costumers have been
                    doing this for so long that it's probably second nature to them, but I
                    think standardization will also help newcomers and reign in those cons
                    who would misuse the ICG guidelines.
                  • Andrew T Trembley
                    ... A win is a win is a win. Of course, the devil is in the details. Those details are the masquerade rules (not the ICG guidelines). If the rules say that
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                      On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:02 AM, stephentang01 wrote:

                      > Hi,
                      > I'm new here, but I come from the anime con circuit.
                      >
                      > [Issue 1]
                      > So, what makes a masquerade's top awards count towards other cons that
                      > follow ICG guidelines?

                      A win is a win is a win.

                      Of course, the devil is in the details.

                      Those details are the masquerade rules (not the ICG guidelines). If the
                      rules say that awards taken at Costume-Con and WorldCon count, they
                      count.

                      There's also the MD's discretionary power. If somebody waltzes in and
                      says "I'm entering in Novice because I've never won anything at
                      WorldCon or CC" but the MD knows she's been taking awards at big,
                      heavily contested regionals, he can say "Nope, you're entering in
                      Journeyman, 'cuz you don't need the protection" (yes, this happened to
                      me, and yes, I did it).

                      > [Issue 2]
                      > Since ICG doesn't have an official process for sanctioning cons, what
                      > prevents any cons from making outlandish claims that they are an
                      > "ICG-sanctioned con" simply, because they follow ICG guidelines? Does
                      > that open the possiblity of cons misrepresenting themselves and
                      > confusing the populace?

                      The ICG does have a process, it's just not a documented process, and
                      hasn't been exercised in years. ICG recognition was granted to WorldCon
                      and Costume-Con by a vote (like I said, I'm not sure if it was a vote
                      of the membership at the annual meeting or a vote of the board; it was
                      years ago).

                      --
                      andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
                      http://www.irlm.org/ - mailto:webmaster@...
                      "Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to"
                      -- Donna Barr
                    • stephentang01
                      I apologize for the double post! I am using Yahoo s web interface rather than directly emailing the mailing list, and there is a tremendous amount of lag
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                        I apologize for the double post! I am using Yahoo's web interface
                        rather than directly emailing the mailing list, and there is a
                        tremendous amount of lag between when I post and when the web site
                        updates.

                        Please ignore the duplicate. Sorry.
                      • stephentang01
                        ... and ... to ... Thank goodness for the MD directionary power. Even if the entrant is not well-known to the MD or its judges, the MD can at least review an
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                          --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@b...> wrote:
                          > There's also the MD's discretionary power. If somebody waltzes in
                          and
                          > says "I'm entering in Novice because I've never won anything at
                          > WorldCon or CC" but the MD knows she's been taking awards at big,
                          > heavily contested regionals, he can say "Nope, you're entering in
                          > Journeyman, 'cuz you don't need the protection" (yes, this happened
                          to
                          > me, and yes, I did it).

                          Thank goodness for the MD directionary power. Even if the entrant is
                          not well-known to the MD or its judges, the MD can at least review an
                          entry and upgrade/downgrade the entrant to prevent sandbagging.

                          For me, being somewhat of an inventory-minded person, I would have
                          thought there would be some central ranking system, much like the way
                          they do in sports.


                          > The ICG does have a process, it's just not a documented process,
                          and
                          > hasn't been exercised in years. ICG recognition was granted to
                          > WorldCon and Costume-Con by a vote (like I said, I'm not sure if it
                          > was a vote of the membership at the annual meeting or a vote of the
                          > board; it was years ago).

                          Oh...so there is a process. I wonder why there aren't more recognized
                          cons. I have seen cons that use ICG guidelines, but I haven't heard
                          about them being officially recognized. Wouldn't ICG recognition for
                          cons be a good thing?
                        • Andrew T Trembley
                          ... There is no downgrade. If somebody wants to come in and compete Master or Journeyman even though they ve never won an award, it s their option. The
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                            On Aug 31, 2005, at 1:00 PM, stephentang01 wrote:
                            > Thank goodness for the MD directionary power. Even if the entrant is
                            > not well-known to the MD or its judges, the MD can at least review an
                            > entry and upgrade/downgrade the entrant to prevent sandbagging.

                            There is no "downgrade." If somebody wants to come in and compete
                            Master or Journeyman even though they've never won an award, it's their
                            option. The master division is an open division. Anyone may enter in
                            the master division. I've seen first-timers win awards in master
                            division, and I've seen first-timers win "Best-in-Show" at Costume-Con.
                            For Historical Recreation.

                            > For me, being somewhat of an inventory-minded person, I would have
                            > thought there would be some central ranking system, much like the way
                            > they do in sports.

                            We had that. If you look at the existing masquerade guidelines (the
                            ones where every paragraph is numbered), you'll see a number with no
                            paragraph.

                            That originally held a paragraph defining the requirements to label
                            ones self a "master costumer." It's gone for a reason. The politics
                            were incredibly unpleasant.

                            The ICG doesn't rank people. Period.

                            The division system exists to allow new competitors to "ease in" to the
                            competitive process and let them get a few awards and build up
                            confidence.

                            > Oh...so there is a process. I wonder why there aren't more recognized
                            > cons. I have seen cons that use ICG guidelines, but I haven't heard
                            > about them being officially recognized. Wouldn't ICG recognition for
                            > cons be a good thing?

                            The ICG guildelines were created to codify traditions surrounding
                            Costume-Con and WorldCon, and to provide for consistency there. There
                            is a resistance against pushing into locals and regionals; comes from
                            having been referred to as "costume nazis" and such in the past. Since
                            then, nobody has really asked.

                            --
                            andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/
                            San Jose, CA - '72 R75/5 '86 R100 (mine) - '92 K75sa '03 R1150R
                            (Kevin's)
                            ...remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio
                          • Dawn McKechnie
                            ... Hahaha. ^_^ That happend to Maral and I at Torcon. XD Carl Mami bumped us up a notch after speaking to us about our costuming history. ^_^ ... I m almost
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                              >From: Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...>

                              >
                              >There's also the MD's discretionary power. If somebody waltzes in and
                              >says "I'm entering in Novice because I've never won anything at
                              >WorldCon or CC" but the MD knows she's been taking awards at big,
                              >heavily contested regionals, he can say "Nope, you're entering in
                              >Journeyman, 'cuz you don't need the protection" (yes, this happened to
                              >me, and yes, I did it).

                              Hahaha. ^_^ That happend to Maral and I at Torcon. XD Carl Mami bumped us
                              up a notch after speaking to us about our costuming history. ^_^"

                              -----------------

                              I'm almost sorry I stirred the pot by asking my question. I never expected
                              the conversation my question led to, to be cross posted to anotherr forum.
                              >_<" People here probably feel they are under attack now which was far from
                              the intent when I asked my question. I merelly wanted some enlightenment to
                              questions that have been bandied about for the last couple of years since
                              The Gathering.

                              stephen as you know someone else gave you the link to this group when she
                              noticed my masqurade query. This was done so you could follow the
                              conversation without her feeling rude about crossposting replies that belong
                              on this forum. The intention was so that you could learn from this forum,
                              but you're coming on like gangbusters. You might want to tone it down a
                              little. @_@



                              --------------

                              Quote= Andrew Trombley: "The ICG guildelines were created to codify
                              traditions surrounding
                              Costume-Con and WorldCon, and to provide for consistency there. There
                              is a resistance against pushing into locals and regionals; comes from
                              having been referred to as "costume nazis" and such in the past. Since
                              then, nobody has really asked."

                              XD understood.
                            • stephentang01
                              ... Costume-Con. For Historical Recreation. I totally missed the reasonings behind the skills division then. I understand this more clearly now. Sorry about
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@b...> wrote:
                                > There is no "downgrade." If somebody wants to come in and compete
                                > Master or Journeyman even though they've never won an award, it's their
                                > option. The master division is an open division. Anyone may enter in
                                > the master division. I've seen first-timers win awards in master
                                > division, and I've seen first-timers win "Best-in-Show" at
                                Costume-Con. For Historical Recreation.

                                I totally missed the reasonings behind the skills division then. I
                                understand this more clearly now. Sorry about my misunderstanding.

                                > We had that. If you look at the existing masquerade guidelines (the
                                > ones where every paragraph is numbered), you'll see a number with no
                                > paragraph.
                                >
                                > That originally held a paragraph defining the requirements to label
                                > ones self a "master costumer." It's gone for a reason. The politics
                                > were incredibly unpleasant.
                                >
                                > The ICG doesn't rank people. Period.

                                Is that supplement #15, which was repealed on February 21, 1994? I
                                was wondering what that supplement was. Now it makes sense. I'm
                                sorry I didn't understand this. As a newcomer, looking at a stricken
                                entry confused me. @_@

                                > The division system exists to allow new competitors to "ease in" to the
                                > competitive process and let them get a few awards and build up
                                > confidence.

                                And as you say, the system would also allow a first-timer to enter the
                                open level immediately if they felt they were up to the challenge. Is
                                that correct?

                                > The ICG guildelines were created to codify traditions surrounding
                                > Costume-Con and WorldCon, and to provide for consistency there.
                                > There is a resistance against pushing into locals and regionals;
                                > comes from having been referred to as "costume nazis" and such in
                                > the past. Since then, nobody has really asked.

                                I apologize to everybody that has read this thread for me having
                                dredged up old wounds. I had no idea these were the reasons behind
                                the development of the guidelines and the system. It makes sense now.

                                I'm sorry for asking questions that are repetitive to many here. Doh.
                              • Kevin Roche
                                Eriol -- You are correct, anyone can enter the Master division the first time around if they wanted to. And no need to apologize for asking these questions...
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                  Eriol -- You are correct, anyone can enter the Master division the first
                                  time around if they wanted to.

                                  And no need to apologize for asking these questions... if no one asks
                                  then the misunderstandings persist!

                                  A group of us has been working on a new and we hope easier to understand
                                  draft of the guidelines.
                                  You can read about it here: <http://www.costume.org/guidelines-committee>

                                  Some of the language changes were in fact made at the suggestion of
                                  anime cosplayers/costumers.

                                  Kevin

                                  stephentang01 wrote:

                                  >And as you say, the system would also allow a first-timer to enter the
                                  >open level immediately if they felt they were up to the challenge. Is
                                  >that correct?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>The ICG guildelines were created to codify traditions surrounding
                                  >>Costume-Con and WorldCon, and to provide for consistency there.
                                  >>There is a resistance against pushing into locals and regionals;
                                  >>comes from having been referred to as "costume nazis" and such in
                                  >>the past. Since then, nobody has really asked.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >I apologize to everybody that has read this thread for me having
                                  >dredged up old wounds. I had no idea these were the reasons behind
                                  >the development of the guidelines and the system. It makes sense now.
                                  >
                                  >I'm sorry for asking questions that are repetitive to many here. Doh.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ricky & Karen Dick
                                  These things happened ALL THE TIME at science fiction conventions in the 60 s and 70 s. High awards usually went to the most naked ladies or the ugliest
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                    These things happened ALL THE TIME at science fiction conventions in the
                                    60's and 70's.

                                    High awards usually went to the most naked ladies or the ugliest aliens,
                                    and Ghod help you if you were something else.

                                    So what I see here is anime cons going through this same learning / shaking
                                    out process when it comes to judging its masquerades.

                                    --Karen

                                    At 07:25 PM 8/31/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                                    >Anime USA

                                    >...workmanship judge,
                                    >who was giving best workmanship awards to women based on how high
                                    >they got his testosterone levels, or how well he knew them
                                    >personally.
                                    >
                                    >FANIME
                                    >-A major craftsmanship award ...was given to the girl purely because she
                                    >revealed herself to
                                    >the judges and the audience.
                                    >
                                    >OTAKON
                                    >-Last year, the workmanship judges tried to eyeball craftsmanship
                                    >from 20 feet as the costumes walked by on the stage. As a result, a
                                    >commissioned/purchased costume won a major craftsmanship award.
                                  • stephentang01
                                    I m sorry to have raised such a ruckus here. I wanted to learn and understand the guidelines, but my eagerness to understand has become overzealous and is
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                      I'm sorry to have raised such a ruckus here. I wanted to learn and
                                      understand the guidelines, but my eagerness to understand has become
                                      overzealous and is putting everyone off. I definitely mean no offense
                                      to people here. -_-;;;;

                                      Sorry if I drudged up bad memories from the past with my bad posting
                                      style. >.< You probably have gotten a lot of these types of
                                      questions in the past, and I just didn't take your sentiments into
                                      account.

                                      I appreciate everyone trying to educate me on this, despite my intrusion.

                                      I will go sit in the corner of the room now. ^^;;;

                                      I keep forgetting to sign my posts...gah. Sorry.

                                      --Stephen
                                    • Andrew T Trembley
                                      ... Eh... don t worry too much about it. I d rather see people coming here and asking questions directly than going out and repeating things they know are
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                        On Aug 31, 2005, at 5:23 PM, stephentang01 wrote:
                                        > I apologize to everybody that has read this thread for me having
                                        > dredged up old wounds. I had no idea these were the reasons behind
                                        > the development of the guidelines and the system. It makes sense now.
                                        >
                                        > I'm sorry for asking questions that are repetitive to many here.
                                        > Doh.

                                        Eh... don't worry too much about it. I'd rather see people coming here
                                        and asking questions directly than going out and repeating things they
                                        "know are true."

                                        Earlier this month I got to explain to somebody that WorldCon isn't
                                        expensive because it's paying big salaries to planners; nobody gets
                                        paid. The big expense is facilities, because WorldCon, at 4,000-6,000
                                        people uses as much space as a 15,000 person anime convention, and it
                                        does it without the industry sponsorship that big anime conventions
                                        get.

                                        Far cry from what people "know is true." But if nobody asks, the
                                        misinformation just continues to flow.

                                        --
                                        andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/
                                        San Jose, CA - '72 R75/5 '86 R100 (mine) - '92 K75sa '03 R1150R
                                        (Kevin's)
                                        "It's not pink, it's peach-colored. Pink is tacky."
                                        --Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

                                        2nd most important safety device on my bike: the one beneath my right
                                        hand
                                        Most important safety device on my bike: the one inside my helmet
                                      • Betsy Delaney
                                        Nope. Don t run away! For every person out there who asks a question, there are five more who read the answers and say Ah! I get it now! Except for the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                          Nope. Don't run away!

                                          For every person out there who asks a question, there are five more who
                                          read the answers and say "Ah! I get it now!"

                                          Except for the inexperienced computer users I used to support who kept
                                          reinfecting their computers with the same virus over and over, there are
                                          very few people who actually ask stupid questions. The only stupid
                                          question is the one you DON'T ask!

                                          And besides - this topic is dredged up every summer, like hurricane
                                          season. We'll go back to talking about cats, baseball or some other
                                          subject real soon now! 9-)

                                          -Betsy
                                          (who now owns too many t-shirts...)

                                          stephentang01 wrote:
                                          > I'm sorry to have raised such a ruckus here. I wanted to learn and
                                          > understand the guidelines, but my eagerness to understand has become
                                          > overzealous and is putting everyone off. I definitely mean no offense
                                          > to people here. -_-;;;;
                                          >
                                          > Sorry if I drudged up bad memories from the past with my bad posting
                                          > style. >.< You probably have gotten a lot of these types of
                                          > questions in the past, and I just didn't take your sentiments into
                                          > account.
                                          >
                                          > I appreciate everyone trying to educate me on this, despite my intrusion.
                                          >
                                          > I will go sit in the corner of the room now. ^^;;;
                                          >
                                          > I keep forgetting to sign my posts...gah. Sorry.
                                          >
                                          > --Stephen
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          --
                                          Betsy Delaney
                                          *************************************************************************
                                          http://www.hawkeswood.com/ * http://www.OutOftheBlackBox.org/
                                          http://www.BarkingMad.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
                                          http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
                                          *************************************************************************
                                        • stephentang01
                                          Hi Kevin, I especially liked the annotated version of the existing ICG guidelines. It helps new people to understand why some clauses were there and in need
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                            Hi Kevin,
                                            I especially liked the annotated version of the existing ICG
                                            guidelines. It helps new people to understand why some clauses were
                                            there and in need of revisions.

                                            I like the 2nd draft of the fairness guidelines. It is more
                                            descriptive, explanative, as well as providing some good reasons why
                                            the fairness guidelines were made. It also covers a lot more
                                            situations and provisions than the 1994 version.

                                            I was intrigued about the part about the need to vacate judges if they
                                            happened to be intoxicated. I guess this can happen (or has
                                            happened). o_o

                                            Is this draft finished? The project timeline said that it would be
                                            finalized and published on 03/07, which I presume is 03/07/2005? If
                                            it is not finalized, is the committee still accepting feedback?

                                            --Stephen


                                            --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Roche <kevin@t...> wrote:
                                            > Eriol -- You are correct, anyone can enter the Master division the
                                            first
                                            > time around if they wanted to.
                                            >
                                            > And no need to apologize for asking these questions... if no one asks
                                            > then the misunderstandings persist!
                                            >
                                            > A group of us has been working on a new and we hope easier to
                                            understand
                                            > draft of the guidelines.
                                            > You can read about it here:
                                            <http://www.costume.org/guidelines-committee>
                                            >
                                            > Some of the language changes were in fact made at the suggestion of
                                            > anime cosplayers/costumers.
                                            >
                                            > Kevin
                                            >
                                            > stephentang01 wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >And as you say, the system would also allow a first-timer to enter the
                                            > >open level immediately if they felt they were up to the challenge. Is
                                            > >that correct?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >>The ICG guildelines were created to codify traditions surrounding
                                            > >>Costume-Con and WorldCon, and to provide for consistency there.
                                            > >>There is a resistance against pushing into locals and regionals;
                                            > >>comes from having been referred to as "costume nazis" and such in
                                            > >>the past. Since then, nobody has really asked.
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > >I apologize to everybody that has read this thread for me having
                                            > >dredged up old wounds. I had no idea these were the reasons behind
                                            > >the development of the guidelines and the system. It makes sense now.
                                            > >
                                            > >I'm sorry for asking questions that are repetitive to many here.
                                            Doh.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                          • stephentang01
                                            Andy, I appreciate this group being patient with the newbies and being quick to set the record straight. I did staff at a few anime cons that were not
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                              Andy,
                                              I appreciate this group being patient with the newbies and being quick
                                              to set the record straight.

                                              I did staff at a few anime cons that were not sponsored, so I can
                                              appreciate the amount of effort volunteers at cons have to go through.
                                              I've seen anime con attendees have similar misconceptions of con setups.

                                              --Stephen


                                              --- In ICG-D@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@b...> wrote:
                                              > Earlier this month I got to explain to somebody that WorldCon isn't
                                              > expensive because it's paying big salaries to planners;
                                              > Far cry from what people "know is true." But if nobody asks, the
                                              > misinformation just continues to flow.
                                            • stephentang01
                                              Hi Betsy! I m just in the corner of this room here. I ll try to be a better net citizen. ^^;;; Oh, so these types of topics happen regularly...I think I ll be
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Aug 31, 2005
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                                                Hi Betsy!

                                                I'm just in the corner of this room here. I'll try to be a better net
                                                citizen. ^^;;;

                                                Oh, so these types of topics happen regularly...I think I'll be glad
                                                when the season is over. XP

                                                It's good that newcomers can learn the history of the guild and its
                                                costumers. I would not like to repeat history. XP

                                                --Stephen
                                              • Pierre & Sandy Pettinger
                                                At 07:45 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote: Stephen, Never apologize for asking questions. What else are we all here for. Some of us old farts have lived through these
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
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                                                  At 07:45 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote:

                                                  Stephen,

                                                  Never apologize for asking questions. What else are we all here for.
                                                  Some of us old farts have lived through these events. Sharing our
                                                  experiences are what we're here for. If you (a generic you) only
                                                  started in costuming in say, 2000, how are you to know what learning
                                                  experiences we went through in 1965, 1975, 1985 or 1995? Ask away!

                                                  Pierre (who dates to 1983 for anyone who doesn't know, but knows a
                                                  lot of stories from earlier conventions since I'm a insatiably curious soul. )

                                                  >I'm sorry to have raised such a ruckus here. I wanted to learn and
                                                  >understand the guidelines, but my eagerness to understand has become
                                                  >overzealous and is putting everyone off. I definitely mean no offense
                                                  >to people here. -_-;;;;
                                                  >
                                                  >Sorry if I drudged up bad memories from the past with my bad posting
                                                  >style. >.< You probably have gotten a lot of these types of
                                                  >questions in the past, and I just didn't take your sentiments into
                                                  >account.
                                                  >
                                                  >I appreciate everyone trying to educate me on this, despite my intrusion.
                                                  >
                                                  >I will go sit in the corner of the room now. ^^;;;
                                                  >
                                                  >I keep forgetting to sign my posts...gah. Sorry.
                                                  >
                                                  >--Stephen

                                                  "Those Who Fail To Learn History
                                                  Are Doomed to Repeat It;
                                                  Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
                                                  Why They Are Simply Doomed.

                                                  Achemdro'hm
                                                  "The Illusion of Historical Fact"
                                                  -- C.Y. 4971

                                                  Andromeda
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