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Re: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes

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  • Joy Day
    ... I agree. When I was at Purdue, I took my white winged fairy maiden outfit - I had already won an award at NolaCon worldcon with this costume - to a bar
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 2, 2003
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      At 08:37 PM 10/2/03 -0400, you wrote:
      >I tried bar costume contests in college. Never again.
      >
      >The judging criterion appears to be, "Who brought the most people who bought
      >the most drinks?"

      I agree. When I was at Purdue, I took my white winged fairy maiden outfit
      - I had already won an award at NolaCon worldcon with this costume - to a
      bar contest because the prize was tempting.

      I lost out to - I kid you not - a naked guy wearing only a large inflated
      trashbag around his torso, down to his thighs. He was ET, the extra
      testicle. I've never bothered since then.

      Peace, Chocolate,
      Joy
      __________________________________________
      Joy Day - Glass Artist
      (831) 659-4950 email: Joy@...
      P.O. Box 3939, Carmel-by-the-Sea,CA 93921
      http://www.glassnebula.com
    • Cat Devereaux
      ... people who bought ... And / Or, who is showing the most skin. When they did a big cash prize costume contest at the Universal Ampitheater a number of years
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 3, 2003
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        >>> The judging criterion appears to be, "Who brought the most
        people who bought
        > the most drinks?"

        And / Or, who is showing the most skin.


        When they did a big cash prize costume contest at the Universal
        Ampitheater a number of years ago... it was something like a 10k
        prize, all the radio stations advertised it.

        People for the contest pulled out about 2 dozen folk out of the
        audience and were directed to a backstage area. There already were
        a couple of folks there who never had been part of the general
        group. Of course, guess who the prizes went to?

        Oh, and the wining entry... The guy wearing Boies outfit
        from "Labreth". This wasn't a recreation. This was one of
        the "real" costumes.

        Needless to say, last time that was done.


        That's all there is to the rules. I'm on their press list... and
        when I query, I keep getting the same form.... with price and age
        corrections. So, it's going to be a free for all with pre-picked
        categories.

        On the other hand, I bet there's going to be some wonderfully cool
        costumes there.

        -Cat-
      • Lay, Toni
        I ve never entered a masquerade or costume contest, except at a convention. If I had a mind to, I don t think I would enter one given at a bar. The mentality
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 3, 2003
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          I've never entered a masquerade or costume contest, except at a convention.
          If I had a mind to, I don't think I would enter one given at a bar. The
          mentality at most bars leaves much to be desired. But a costume contest
          given by a major department or specialty store, may spark my interest.

          Toni
        • Dana MacDermott
          Many years ago (1983), I took/wore my four breasted cat lady (which was my first Con costume) to the New Years eve Hooker s Ball in San Francisco. I won
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 4, 2003
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            Many years ago (1983), I took/wore my four breasted cat lady (which was my
            first Con costume) to the New Years eve "Hooker's Ball" in San
            Francisco. I won $350, but had to endure not only the same question (which
            ones are real?) that I got at the Cons (WesterCon and later LACon), but
            also pokes and prods. I should have had a body guard. It was, however, a
            case of taking the right costume to the right venue.
            We took some of the proceeds and took the family out to a very special
            dinner at what was then one of the area's top restaurants (Narsai's). We
            told the kids that they would not only have to enjoy themselves, but would
            have to remember it for the rest of their lives.
            So far, they do.

            I have also experienced taking a good costume to an unappreciative
            audience. I did a Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus couple of costumes for a
            Mensa Purim Party, and got beat out in the historical division to a gold
            faced King Tut. Huh? Mine was researched, as well as appropriate for the
            Holiday. So much for intellectual.
            Dana
          • Scott & JoAnn Abbott
            I did Queen Esther for a fall Fest at my church a few years back- the theme was come as your favorite Bible Character. I was asked if I was
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 4, 2003
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              I did Queen Esther for a fall Fest at my church a few years back- the theme was come as your favorite Bible Character. I was asked if I was Jezebel.....*sigh*.

              JoAnn in VA
              I have also experienced taking a good costume to an unappreciative
              audience. I did a Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus couple of costumes for a
              Mensa Purim Party, and got beat out in the historical division to a gold
              faced King Tut. Dana




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dawn McKechnie
              ... Once as a joke, my roomate and I found a way around this. :D A mutual friend of ours from our art college owns a bronzecasting buisness. Basically he
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 4, 2003
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                >From: "Cat Devereaux" <CatDevereaux@...>
                >Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                >To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes
                >Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:09:31 -0000

                >
                >And / Or, who is showing the most skin.

                Once as a joke, my roomate and I found a way around this. :D A mutual friend
                of ours from our art college owns a bronzecasting buisness. Basically he
                "immortalizes" people in bronze. Nude people, (with enough money to pay for
                thier own raw form in bronze.) He also features life drawings and such other
                things. We meet many models thru his studio. Several of these models also
                make money stripping.
                So October of one year a new club, (a supposedly clean, trendy, "dance"
                club. *chuckles*), opened in the area and several of the girls invited us
                because they were having a $500.00 cash prize for best costume on halloween
                eve.

                so....

                Hey when everyone is nude, nudity doesn't play so well. ;)
                LOL! It's not something I'd recommend as a rule, but *laughs* admittedly it
                wasn't bad.
                Clean, non smoking, suprisingly not trashy, free drinks, nice bouncers and
                $500 cash.
                So that's it. My deep dark secret.


                >-Cat-
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
              • Dawn McKechnie
                ... Kevin, (and to all of you who have posted similar thoughts here), I belive as deep down in the soul costumers, we all are destine to have a story of this
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 4, 2003
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                  >From: "Kevin Roche" <kevin@...>
                  >Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <ICG-D@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes
                  >Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:28:58 -0700

                  >
                  >I generally avoid even little bar competitions. They are usually judged by
                  >applause. Costume quality has little to do with the winners. Since that
                  >isn't the way I like to be judged, I don't enter. Saves me the energy of
                  >getting upset ;-)
                  >
                  >Kevin


                  Kevin,
                  (and to all of you who have posted similar thoughts here), I belive as
                  deep down in the soul costumers, we all are destine to have a story of this
                  nature, and they always rankle don't they? Most of us have most likely met
                  and perhaps even lost to, a costume which we consider, er.. or would like
                  not to consider.

                  My personal harsh defeat came at the hands of a man dressed as a pygmy with
                  elephantiasis of the scrotum. *insert longsuffering sigh here*.

                  It was one of my, "why is this happening to me?" days. *sheepish grin*

                  Cheers!

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
                  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                • Ricky & Karen Dick
                  ... OK, here s my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once to...a GOAT. When he was very young, his handlers had surgically moved his horn cores
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                    At 12:03 AM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                    >Kevin,
                    > (and to all of you who have posted similar thoughts here), I belive as
                    >deep down in the soul costumers, we all are destine to have a story of this
                    >nature, and they always rankle don't they? Most of us have most likely met
                    >and perhaps even lost to, a costume which we consider, er.. or would like
                    >not to consider.

                    OK, here's my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once to...a GOAT.

                    When he was very young, his handlers had surgically moved his horn cores
                    together to form a single horn in the center of his forehead. So they
                    billed him as "Lancelot the Unicorn" and taught him how to do tricks like a
                    dog (sit, lie down, roll over, etc.).

                    So, in a S/F convention costume competition in the Bay area, out come the
                    handlers (who were dressed in motley that was somewhere between hippie and
                    SCA field garb, nothing to write home about), and brought out the goat
                    (which was still very young and cute), and had it do its tricks...AND WON
                    BEST IN SHOW.

                    Pissed off doesn't even begin to describe my sentiments. My costume aside,
                    there were other deserving people in that competition who expected to be
                    judged on their costumes, not on the performances of their pets.

                    Later, the handlers hooked up with Ringling Brothers, Barnum, and Bailey,
                    and a whole edition of RBB&B was touring featuring the grown-up Lancelot
                    (or one of his kin), the "Living Unicorn." I just could not bring myself to
                    go to the circus that year.

                    Other "cash prize" competition stories, all from the mid- to late- 70's:

                    The large radio station Halloween party in 1978 that drew thousands of
                    participants. Most of the costumes were rented. The top winner for the
                    evening was the person who built a framework out of chicken wire, covered
                    it with aluminum foil, and came as the "KFMB Rock" (mascot of the radio
                    station). Other costumes of note: someone in a motorized wheelchair who
                    decorated it up as a surrey (yes, with fringe on top), and someone with a
                    glowing fiber optic suit that made him look like a futuristic human
                    porcupine (I felt sorry for him because he had to be plugged into an
                    electric socket and only had a 6' extension cord, so he was stuck by a wall
                    all evening). I was wearing one of my "how does that stay on?!!" S/F
                    costumes, and some uncouth person came running across the lobby and flipped
                    up my skirt to see if I was wearing underwear (I was). That just
                    demonstrated the difference between the general public and fandom--no
                    matter how little I wore at a fannish event, nobody *ever* tried to lay
                    hands on me or my clothing without my permission.

                    I came in second place at a San Diego bar party to someone who had done a
                    killer "Snoopy in his Sopwith Camel" costume. It had major problems
                    maneuvering around the room (imagine a "furry" suit with 4' airplane wings
                    sticking out both sides). But Snoopy definitely deserved the top prize.

                    My boyfriend and I came in second place at the costume competition at the
                    Logan's Run movie premiere at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood. Got
                    newspaper coverage and everything. (The theme there was to come dressed
                    futuristically. A lot of San Diego and L.A. area former S/F competition and
                    Futuristic Fashion Show costumes showed up that day, LOL!) My favorite
                    costume was a very tall, thin warrior type dressed all in mylar armor, with
                    a crested/mohawk helmet that made him seem even taller and more alien. I
                    don't think he won anything, which is a shame--he was one of the more
                    inventive costumes I saw there. I even thought of giving him my prize, as I
                    thought he was more deserving than we were, but he had disappeared into the
                    crowd and I never saw him again. I do have a photo of him in the costume
                    line-up (taken by a friend and given to me years later), and he is as
                    wonderful as I remembered.

                    After those experiences, I kinda gave up on the non-fannish cash prize type
                    competitions. Whatever I wore ended up being lumped in with the rental
                    stuff (as it was considered "too good" to be homemade), and I always lost
                    out to something that was obviously homemade (like the KFMB Rock).

                    --Karen
                  • randwhit@aol.com
                    In a message dated 10/5/2003 9:27:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time, ... That s odd. Normally a young goat would compete in the KIDS DIVISION. Randall [Non-text
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                      In a message dated 10/5/2003 9:27:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
                      castleb@... writes:

                      > OK, here's my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once to...a GOAT.

                      That's odd. Normally a young goat would compete in the KIDS DIVISION.

                      Randall


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ricky & Karen Dick
                      LOLOL!!! (I will kill you later.) :-) --Karen
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                        LOLOL!!!

                        (I will kill you later.) :-)

                        --Karen

                        At 12:51 PM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                        >In a message dated 10/5/2003 9:27:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
                        >castleb@... writes:
                        >
                        > > OK, here's my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once to...a GOAT.
                        >
                        >That's odd. Normally a young goat would compete in the KIDS DIVISION.
                        >
                        >Randall
                        >
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >ICG-D-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Lady Kareena Sartek
                        I have taken my costumes, or when son wore costumes (ones we made) for Halloween and we entered places and win cash prizes or whatever. Then again, like at one
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                          I have taken my costumes, or when son wore costumes (ones we made)
                          for Halloween and we entered places and win cash prizes or whatever.
                          Then again, like at one bar near me, I wore my Centauri costume,
                          which people liked, but when came to the juding they depended on
                          applause of audience, which was alot of drunken men and two skimpy
                          clad women, one in a harem costume (should have worn my Scherazade
                          one) and a cavewoma\en one that won. And there were couple great
                          costumes there. It always depends. . .
                          Pam



                          > Many years ago (1983), I took/wore my four breasted cat lady
                          (which was my
                          > first Con costume) to the New Years eve "Hooker's Ball" in San
                          > Francisco. I won $350, but had to endure not only the same
                          question (which
                          > ones are real?) that I got at the Cons (WesterCon and later LACon),
                          but
                          > also pokes and prods. I should have had a body guard. It was,
                          however, a
                          > case of taking the right costume to the right venue.
                          > We took some of the proceeds and took the family out to a
                          very special
                          > dinner at what was then one of the area's top restaurants
                          (Narsai's). We
                          > told the kids that they would not only have to enjoy themselves,
                          but would
                          > have to remember it for the rest of their lives.
                          > So far, they do.
                          >
                          > I have also experienced taking a good costume to an
                          unappreciative
                          > audience. I did a Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus couple of
                          costumes for a
                          > Mensa Purim Party, and got beat out in the historical division to a
                          gold
                          > faced King Tut. Huh? Mine was researched, as well as appropriate
                          for the
                          > Holiday. So much for intellectual.
                          > Dana
                        • Lady Kareena Sartek
                          This does happens in masqurades too, you know. The costumer who beats out good made ones. Yes, it does. So not just in the Mundane world. . . Pam PS As my
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                            This does happens in masqurades too, you know. The costumer who beats
                            out good made ones. Yes, it does. So not just in the Mundane
                            world. . .
                            Pam
                            PS As my hubby says, just go and do it, have fun and don't expect tot
                            win. Even if you don't if you had fun doing it, then sometimes that's
                            the rewardss. But it does still rankle, something I don't tell hubby.
                            That's my deep dark secret. LOL




                            >
                            >
                            > >From: "Kevin Roche" <kevin@t...>
                            > >Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: <ICG-D@yahoogroups.com>
                            > >Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes
                            > >Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:28:58 -0700
                            >
                            > >
                            > >I generally avoid even little bar competitions. They are usually
                            judged by
                            > >applause. Costume quality has little to do with the winners. Since
                            that
                            > >isn't the way I like to be judged, I don't enter. Saves me the
                            energy of
                            > >getting upset ;-)
                            > >
                            > >Kevin
                            >
                            >
                            > Kevin,
                            > (and to all of you who have posted similar thoughts here), I
                            belive as
                            > deep down in the soul costumers, we all are destine to have a story
                            of this
                            > nature, and they always rankle don't they? Most of us have most
                            likely met
                            > and perhaps even lost to, a costume which we consider, er.. or
                            would like
                            > not to consider.
                            >
                            > My personal harsh defeat came at the hands of a man dressed as a
                            pygmy with
                            > elephantiasis of the scrotum. *insert longsuffering sigh here*.
                            >
                            > It was one of my, "why is this happening to me?" days. *sheepish
                            grin*
                            >
                            > Cheers!
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
                            > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                          • Lady Kareena Sartek
                            Better than being an old goat ! LOL Pam ... to...a GOAT. ... DIVISION. ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                              Better than being an 'old goat'! LOL
                              Pam




                              :
                              > LOLOL!!!
                              >
                              > (I will kill you later.) :-)
                              >
                              > --Karen
                              >
                              > At 12:51 PM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                              > >In a message dated 10/5/2003 9:27:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
                              > >castleb@p... writes:
                              > >
                              > > > OK, here's my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once
                              to...a GOAT.
                              > >
                              > >That's odd. Normally a young goat would compete in the KIDS
                              DIVISION.
                              > >
                              > >Randall
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >ICG-D-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Trudy Leonard
                              Thank you, Karen! We ve been waiting for someone to save us and do him in. Trudy ... _________________________________________________________________
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 5, 2003
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                                Thank you, Karen! We've been waiting for someone to save us and do him in.

                                Trudy


                                >From: Ricky & Karen Dick <castleb@...>
                                >Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes
                                >Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:21:28 -0400
                                >
                                >LOLOL!!!
                                >
                                >(I will kill you later.) :-)
                                >
                                >--Karen
                                >
                                >At 12:51 PM 10/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                                > >In a message dated 10/5/2003 9:27:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
                                > >castleb@... writes:
                                > >
                                > > > OK, here's my story: I lost a fannish costume competition once to...a
                                >GOAT.
                                > >
                                > >That's odd. Normally a young goat would compete in the KIDS DIVISION.
                                > >
                                > >Randall
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > >ICG-D-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________
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                              • Lay, Toni
                                See, I WOULD have come as Jezebel. Toni ... From: Scott & JoAnn Abbott [mailto:bubblemum@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 6:01 PM To:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 6, 2003
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                                  See, I WOULD have come as Jezebel.

                                  Toni

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Scott & JoAnn Abbott [mailto:bubblemum@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 6:01 PM
                                  To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Large cash prizes


                                  I did Queen Esther for a fall Fest at my church a few years back- the theme
                                  was come as your favorite Bible Character. I was asked if I was
                                  Jezebel.....*sigh*.

                                  JoAnn in VA
                                  I have also experienced taking a good costume to an unappreciative
                                  audience. I did a Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus couple of costumes for
                                  a
                                  Mensa Purim Party, and got beat out in the historical division to a gold
                                  faced King Tut. Dana




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  ICG-D-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Stephanie Carrigg
                                  ... You! Never!!! Toni, I d never expect that to come out of your mouth. Steph
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 6, 2003
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                                    on 10/6/03 10:29 AM, Lay, Toni at toni@... wrote:

                                    > See, I WOULD have come as Jezebel.
                                    >
                                    > Toni
                                    You! Never!!!
                                    Toni, I'd never expect that to come out of your mouth.
                                    Steph
                                  • John O'Halloran
                                    ... It s amazing what having a Minder will do to calm the hordes. Chris & two friends toured one night at ConFrancisco as the Space Bimbos. Nothing too
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 7, 2003
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                                      Dana MacDermott wrote:

                                      > Many years ago (1983), I took/wore my four breasted cat lady (which was my
                                      > first Con costume) to the New Years eve "Hooker's Ball" in San
                                      > Francisco. I won $350, but had to endure not only the same question (which
                                      > ones are real?) that I got at the Cons (WesterCon and later LACon), but
                                      > also pokes and prods. I should have had a body guard. It was, however, a
                                      > case of taking the right costume to the right venue.

                                      It's amazing what having a Minder will do to calm the hordes.

                                      Chris & two friends toured one night at ConFrancisco as the Space
                                      Bimbos. Nothing too radical, but sexy and eye catching.

                                      The husband of one of the other ladies and I were their minders.
                                      Amazing how being with 3 feet (but not in direct line of sight) and a
                                      simple arm movement can stop someone in their tracks who are heading in
                                      for a "closer look."

                                      I've used the same techniques for other sexy costumes, media guests and
                                      even crowd control at a meet & greet after a theatre performance.

                                      JohnO
                                    • Pierre & Sandy Pettinger
                                      ... In my experience, at least, this only happens at cons when the judges are largely authors or BNFs. (and there are authors who are great judges; Terry
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 7, 2003
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                                        At 03:12 PM 10/5/2003, you wrote:
                                        >This does happens in masqurades too, you know. The costumer who beats
                                        >out good made ones. Yes, it does. So not just in the Mundane
                                        >world. . .
                                        >Pam


                                        In my experience, at least, this only happens at cons when the judges are
                                        largely authors or BNFs. (and there are authors who are great judges; Terry
                                        Pratchett, C. J. Cherryh and others). When there are competent judges who
                                        actually care about the masquerade you usually have good judging and that,
                                        I think, is more common than not at most convention masquerades.

                                        Pierre

                                        >PS As my hubby says, just go and do it, have fun and don't expect tot
                                        >win. Even if you don't if you had fun doing it, then sometimes that's
                                        >the rewardss. But it does still rankle, something I don't tell hubby.
                                        >That's my deep dark secret. LOL
                                        >
                                        > > >From: "Kevin Roche" <kevin@t...>
                                        > > >Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >To: <ICG-D@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Re: Large cash prizes
                                        > > >Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:28:58 -0700
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >I generally avoid even little bar competitions. They are usually
                                        >judged by
                                        > > >applause. Costume quality has little to do with the winners. Since
                                        >that
                                        > > >isn't the way I like to be judged, I don't enter. Saves me the
                                        >energy of
                                        > > >getting upset ;-)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Kevin
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Kevin,
                                        > > (and to all of you who have posted similar thoughts here), I
                                        >belive as
                                        > > deep down in the soul costumers, we all are destine to have a story
                                        >of this
                                        > > nature, and they always rankle don't they? Most of us have most
                                        >likely met
                                        > > and perhaps even lost to, a costume which we consider, er.. or
                                        >would like
                                        > > not to consider.
                                        > >
                                        > > My personal harsh defeat came at the hands of a man dressed as a
                                        >pygmy with
                                        > > elephantiasis of the scrotum. *insert longsuffering sigh here*.
                                        > >
                                        > > It was one of my, "why is this happening to me?" days. *sheepish
                                        >grin*
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers!

                                        "Those Who Fail To Learn History
                                        Are Doomed To Repeat It;
                                        Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
                                        Why They Are Simply Doomed."

                                        Achemdro'hm
                                        "The Illusion of Historical Fact"
                                        -- C.Y. 4971

                                        Andromeda
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