- Hi, everyone,
These are rather interesting responses to my class posting. I'm only surprised because on my other writing and editing listserves (where there are both self-published and "traditional" published writers) people post classes and workshops all the time. Am I unclear, or is it not as common to post such things on this list?
Get rich? I wish! Teaching doesn't get any of us rich, trust me. Most of us do it because we love it. I do a lot of fundraisers for RWA groups, and I have scholarship (as in FREE) positions in all my classes, but for the first 50 pages class I've already filled those spots. I give away plenty of time to students, trust me. Drives my husband nuts.
This class, however, is a TON of work because I'm reviewing everyone's first 50 pages (last class had 16 people, so imagine the reading time--and I'm dyslexic, so I read slow as a snail), so yes, it's priced higher than my usual $35, which is low in itself.
Frankly, I'm not really clear why this got such a negative response. The conversation seems kinda silly. Maybe I should put "promo" in the subject line? I'm open to suggestions...
On another note, if you haven't read Bob Mayer's post on his experience at the Australian RWA conference with the ePublishing conversations, you might like to: http://writeitforward.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/reactions-from-the-australian-new-zealand-rwa-writers-conferences-the-future-is-now/
For those unfamiliar, Bob is a well-published author who's gone indie and gives a lot of talks to help authors self-publish and build their careers that way, as well as when to look to NY. He's got lots of posts that are really helpful. He also teaches a lot, and I can vouch for the quality of his classes. (And no, he's not getting rich off his classes either, but he loves it.)
- Breaking my long silence, I jumpeth into the fray.As one of the original members of the group, I always felt we welcomed everyone who had a sincere interest in the writing art. Overall it has been a remarkably well-mannered and friendly group, and one which has offered many positive suggestions for struggling writers.As Celia indicated, getting into political or religious discussions in this forum is a sure recipe for verbal fisticuffs. We don't want that.Everyone should feel welcome and free to contribute. Try not to take any criticism offered here personally. I believe most of us are very well-meaning, though perhaps occasionally lacking in tact.So Karen, jump on in and enjoy the ride. And if anyone gives you any more trouble, little lady, just holler and I'll load up the musket. (You'll have to excuse me, I have been known to try to write historical fiction).Cheers
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To: IAG-members <IAGemail@example.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 2, 2011 10:43 pm
Subject: Re: [IAG-members] Re: warning
I'm going to attempt to enter a discussion on this group one more time, to give a 'new member' perspective – or at least my perspective as a 'new member'. I've actually been around for a while, wondering just what it is I should be doing here. Of the two times I've ventured to enter a discussion, once I was ignored and the second time given a rather vehement point by point assessment as to why my opinion (and my idea) was wrong, wrong and wrong!As to introducing myself, I'd love to feel comfortable doing that, but after my first two experiences… It's bad enough having an opinion or an idea ignored or shot down – the thought of saying "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and being ignored or shot down was a little too much. I have stayed silent ever since.I would suggest there is a fourth reason people leave this group – they feel they have been ignored, marginalised, pushed into the background and told t o stay there. I'm sure that's not the intention of those who started it.Judi Sutherland mentioned 'group cohesion' and there seems to be quite a lot of that, at least amongst a small core group of regular posters. I can't speak for the 'rest of us', but as one of the rest of us, I've been left wondering just what I have to do to feel like I'm actually part of this group, with the same rights to express an opinion as anyone else.There seem to be one or two people in particular who have no hesitation in stomping on others. One poster (some time ago) was told 'if the grammar in your books is as bad as in this post, then you're giving independent writers a bad name', for instance. This is just one example.I write this not 'in a huff' or in the midst of a 'hissy' or, indeed, at the peak of 'high dudgeon', but a little sadly. I'd love to feel I was benefitting from my membership of this group, and I'd lo ve to feel that others might benefit from my membership as well. In order to do that, I need to feel comfortable about joining the conversation. And that, sadly, hasn't happened quite yet.Karen ClarkFrom: Celia Hayes <clyahayes@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: "IAGfirstname.lastname@example.org" < IAGemail@example.com>
Subject: Re: [IAG-members] Re: warningTechnically, Nan and I serve as moderators, but this group started as pretty much a self-organized forum. It is rarely neccessary for one of us to step in and drop gentle suggestions. Which we do not do very often, as both of us have day jobs. In my case, several. We're about books: writing and marketing them. We haven't made a practice of banning people, only the occassional spam-bot: most usually, those who have parted ways with the group have stomped off in a huff, a hissy or a hugh dudgeon of their own accord.Celia Hayes
Author: Daughter of Texas & The Adelsverein T rilogyFrom: Charlie Farrow <charlie.farrow@...>
Sent: Frid ay, September 2, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [IAG-members] Re: warning
The trouble with groups like this one is that no-one ever knows who IS in charge. Presumable Celia Hayes is a moderator, but there is no indication on the home page or in posts... In spite of original intentions of the founders, generally groups establish a tacit set of rules by common consent that said it would be a rare group that didn't condemn blatant advertising with no inherent immediate benefit to the members integral to the post.Politics - fine by me so long as it's witty or historical!Charlie FarrowOn 2 September 2011 19:58, Richard Risch <rgwrisch@...> wrote:Having once been an elected Democratic Party County Committeeman of Ocean County, New Jersey (and I have the certificate to prove it), I have since resigned from the Democratic Party (after 4 months of serving) because they are no different from the Republicans. Both are equally corrupt, stupid, and power mad. I now label myself as one thing and one thing only, AN AMERICAN!!! And I believe in what Bruce Lee said "Take what works and disgard the rest!" And by the way, George Bush may have started the problem, Obama has not only prepetuated it, but made it horrorably worse. And one other thing, I have noticed on several other recent posts, the using of this forum as a "soap box" for political agenda. I would suggest to the moderator the very next person to do should be peramanently kicked out...or is there a double standard here?--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Kris Jackson <kris@...> wrote:From: Kris Jackson <kris@...>Subject: Re: [IAG-members] Re: warningOkay, we usually leave the political stuff out of these discussions, but since the bait was thrown out there, I'll say this and sign off: If I have a problem with Obama, it's that he still considers the Republicans honest players. I'll gladly vote for him again. Which of the howling pack of Know-Nothings (look it up) would you prefer? Or would you rather go back to the nose-picking cowboy who got us into this mess?
-- Kris Jackson Author of "Above the Fray, a Novel of the Union Balloon Corps"On Sep 2, 2011 7:57 AM, Richard Risch <rgwrisch@...> wrote:
My apologies for my negative comments. However, with that said I am opposed to people who seemingly overcharge for information that can be had for by cheaper means in an economy that is being run into the ground by an incompetent and uncaring president (who makes Jimmy Carter look like George Washington)."Don't Sabotage Your Submission: Save Your Manuscript from Turning Up D.O.A" by Chris Roerden is a cheap ($9 to $ 12) alternative ( and a treasure) in learning how to write fiction masterfully for both the amateur and professional alike. It is written with the intention of understanding concepts and each chapter present clear define examples of good writing in comparison to examples of bad writing. From Chris Roerden's own bio page I will quote:"I couldn't believe it! On the eve of Book Expo America 2009 in New York, my 11th book, DON'T SABOTAGE YOUR SUBMISSION, won the Benjamin Franklin Award for Literary Criticism! The next day it won the Bronze Medal for Writing Book of the Year from ForeWord Magazine. Both are national, juried competitions.DON'T SABOTAGE YOUR SUBMISSION is advice from my 44 years in publishing, intended for writers in all genres -- an expanded edition of my earlier book, DON'T MURDER YOUR MYSTERY, which had the honor of: * winning the 2006 Agatha Award for Best Nonfiction Book (named for the great Agatha Christie, as you might guess) * finaling for the Anthony Award for Best Critical Nonfiction (named for editor/critic Anthony Boucher, awarded by the largest mystery convention in the world, Bouchercon) * finagling for the Macavity Award for Best Nonfiction (named for TS Eliot's cat and awarded by the largest mystery readers organization in the world, Mystery Readers International) * finaling for ForeWord Magazine's Reference Book of the Year * being selected for the Writer's Digest Book ClubAuthors I've edited over a 44-year career in publishing are published by St. Martin's Press, Berkley Prime Crime, Midnight Ink, Walker & Co., Intrigue, Rodale, Viking, and many other presses, large and small.In the middle of those 44 years as an editor, I took a long break to rear two sons, write my first book (Collections from Cape Elizabeth, Maine), earn a B.A. in English summa cum Lauder from the University of Maine, receive the first M.A. in English awarded by the Portland campus, create the graduate student association and serve as its first president and editor of the graduate student newsletter, and be appointed an instructor at what's now the University of Southern Maine -- where I taught writing for three years.After a family transfer to Syracuse I mentored the writing of off-campus students for t he State University of New York-Rochester. Also during those "at home" years I was very active as a community organizer and trainer -- including state president of 3,000 members of a national organization. I wrote its leadership training materials and developed a simulation game, Oops'n'Options, used in Air Force officer training to reduce the number of sexual harassment lawsuits facing the military.As many editors have done and continue to do, I made a happy transition in 1983 from busy managing editor of a rapidly growing niche publisher in Wisconsin to even busier contract editor. And after my first 6 years of steady client work I took a summer off to volunteer to teach in South Korea for UNESCO. That enriching experience resulted in my sole autobiographical book, OPEN GATE: TEACHING IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY -- of which 975 copies are in circulation. (I bought out the remaining 25 new copies.)Of the other nonfiction titles I've been hired to write or gho stwrite, the only other book that bears my byline is WHAT TWO CAN DO: SAM & MANDY STELLMAN'S CRUSADE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE. (I bought the remainders of that book, too, an inspiring story of how the first state to reform its archaic rape laws came about.)In the mid-nineties I was elected president of a 10-state regional trade association of 250 commercial publishers and university presses, MidAmerica Publishers Association. For 8 years I also taught night classes for the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee in writing and getting published, then became active in Mystery Writers of America. I served 6 years on the Southeast Regional board of MWA and received the region's highest honor for service, the Magnolia Award. I'm also a long-time member of Sisters in Crime and Mensa.A native New Yorker, I got my first job in publishing at age 16 right out of high school -- Music and Art, now LaGuardia. Today I enjoy living in the milder climate of North Carolina, bu t leave it regularly when invited to present workshops on the writer's voice and its role in attracting agents and publishers. If you're curious to see the workshops I offer, please visit "writers info dot info" (no spaces)."What she doesn't tell you is that she has been the editor-in-chief of many notable publications and that she has taught writing and English usage on a university level, and has done so for 50 years. The woman's credentials are impeccable if one bothers to do the research. However, the first comments posted in response to my suggestion by a couple of arrogant nameless twits demeans the rest of the authors of this group while lending to the opinion that books written and published by independent authors vastly lack in quality because of such self-serving egos and narrow-mindedness.What a joke. You see, I&nbs p;was always taught that there was always something new to learn and that to strive to be a better person than I was a second ago. It is too bad that this type of thinking was somehow lost to the era of the 1950's.Anyway, my apologies again.
--- On Thu, 9/1/11, Christine Fairchild <christinefairchild@...> wrote:
From: Christine Fairchild <christinefairchild@...>
Subject: [IAG-members] Re: warning
Date: Thursday, September 1, 2011, 7:40 PM
Hi, everyone, These are rather interesting responses to my class posting. I'm only surprised because on my other writing and editing listserves (where there are both self-published and "traditional" published writers) people post classes and workshops all the time. Am I unclear, or is it not as common to post such things on this list? Get rich? I wish! Teaching doesn't get any of us rich, trust me. Most of us do it because we love it. I do a lot of fundraisers for RWA groups, an d I have scholarship (as in FREE) positions in all my classes, but for the first 50 pages class I've already filled those spots. I give away plenty of time to students, trust me. Drives my husband nuts. This class, however, is a TON of work because I'm reviewing everyone's first 50 pages (last class had 16 people, so imagine the reading time--and I'm dyslexic, so I read slow as a snail), so yes, it's priced higher than my usual $35, which is low in itself. Frankly, I'm not really clear why this got such a negative response. The conversation seems kinda silly. Maybe I should put "promo" in the subject line? I'm open to suggestions... On another note, if you haven't read Bob Mayer's post on his experience at the Australian RWA conference with the ePublishing conversations, you might like to: http://writeitforward.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/reactions-from-the-a + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + + ~ + ~ Read our monthly newsletter!http://www.independentauthorsguild.com/PublicationPage-IAG.htm News, reviews, all you can use. + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ + ~ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IAG-members/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IAG-members/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: IAGfirstname.lastname@example.org IAGemail@example.com <*> To unsubscribe from send an email to: IAGfirstname.lastname@example.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yaho