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Re: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed... (Phase 1)

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  • Jan
    Hello all. First I want to say how much I appreciate the hard work that is being done here. And though I don t often understand how all the pieces fit into
    Message 1 of 114 , Jun 30, 2012
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      Hello all. First I want to say how much I appreciate the hard work that is being done here.  And though I don't often understand how all the pieces fit into the puzzle, I do closely follow everyone's emails and any charts or information put on this forum.  I am kit number 175599 Crow. I am more than happy to order more tests but do not know if it is appropriate or needed for me to do so. If someone could direct me I would appreciate it.  Thanks again for all your hard work.      
      Jan

      On Jun 27, 2012, at 17:04, Aaron Salles Torres <sallfertorr@...> wrote:

       

      Hello, Jeffery

      Do you want to go with Z2058? That would give Dora more time to work with her project's volunteers. This week's tests will be batched shortly, so we should get the order in.

      I will work with Dora later if her project members are interested.

      Thanks,
      Aaron Torres

      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Gibbon <jguss43@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Aaron and Dora,
      >
      > I am Kit #113655 and I am part of Isle Scotland and listed on FTDNA as M284+
      > M223+ L126+ L1229-, although I have taken the WTY back in 2009 I am willing
      > to test for any SNP's that may have not been tested for since I had the test
      > done, let me know.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      > Jeffery W. Gibbon
      >   
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > sallfertorr
      > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:35 AM
      > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed...
      > (Phase 1)
      >
      > Hello, Dora
      >
      > If you can find a volunteer for Z2058, that would be appreciated. Let us
      > know if any of the McKinstry's are willing.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Aaron Torres
      >
      > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
      > >
      > > You need a volunteer from Isles-Scottish?    Not kidding?   Or is M284
      > > Isles not Isles Scottish?   Let me know if you have trouble getting one,
      > > which I wouldn't expect, and I'll see if I can talk somone in my project
      > > into it.   I'm flat broke.
      > >
      > > Dora
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On 6/26/2012 11:04 PM, Aaron Salles Torres wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello, all
      > > >
      > > > Astrid Krahn has worked hard developing the primers for these Z
      > > > SNP's and they are finally here!
      > > >
      > > > Most SNP's Z2054 through Z2102 are now available on the FT DNA
      > > > catalog. As you know, these have the potential of teaching us about
      > > > the early days of the I2b1/M223 haplogroup. The illustration by Greg
      > > > Magoon is as follows - notice he places these SNP's upstream from
      > > > L1229, but they may also be upstream from L701/L702 (Cont3a and
      > > > I2b1-XX) as well as from M284 (Isles) and L1228 (I2b1-X) and unite
      > > > these branches, telling us about their history:
      > > >
      > > > https://www.box.com/s/bef7cc5868cd2a5b574a
      > > >
      > > > In other words, we will need all the volunteer power we have. And,
      > > > in order to get actual results, our testing needs to be coordinated.
      > > > Therefore, I ask that in Phase 1 we concentrate on SNP's: Z2054,
      > > > Z2055, Z2056, Z2058, Z2059, Z2061.
      > > >
      > > > We need a volunteer from each of the mentioned groups (L1229/Roots,
      > > > L701/L702/Cont3a/I2b1-XX, M284/Isles and L1228/I2b1-X) to test for
      > > > each one of them. Please note that these SNP's are supposedly
      > > > upstream ones, so one representative from each group will be enough
      > > > at this phase. To double check our results, I would ask for a
      > > > volunteer from the large Z161+ (Continental) group as well to test for
      > each.
      > > >
      > > > Because there are so many SNP's and because they add up, it would be
      > > > very good if we could work as a team so the costs are distributed
      > > > evenly within our project. If you place an order for one SNP, please
      > > > tell the group so the same test doesn't get ordered twice.
      > > >
      > > > On a similar note, SNP Z185 has also become available on the catalog.
      > > > So if Z78 or L1198 are your terminal SNP's, please consider ordering
      > > > this test. A Z79+ volunteer would also be welcome.
      > > >
      > > > These are exciting times for M223, so thanks in advance for your
      > > > collaboration.
      > > >
      > > > Aaron Torres
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >

      =
    • Gary Felix
      I see what you mean.  Seems to have popped up lately in haplo J as well lately.  For more, Google SNP Null FTDNA.  For me a null may be almost as good as a
      Message 114 of 114 , Sep 7, 2012
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        I see what you mean.  Seems to have popped up lately in haplo J as well lately.  For more, Google SNP Null FTDNA.  For me a null may be almost as good as a negative. I have a few more adjacent mutations as well. Since a null produces a false negative it looks like everyone that has tested for it so far would not have this result. We'll see.

        Best,
        Gary
        Mexico DNA Project Admin.

        --- On Fri, 9/7/12, hstyri <styri@...> wrote:

        From: hstyri <styri@...>
        Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed & 23andme
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, September 7, 2012, 4:21 PM

         

        Not neccessarily a deletion. Any change that may cause the primer to fail may be the cause of the problem. If you've got FTDNA to have another look at the test they'll probably get it sorted out.

        Regards,
        H.Styri

        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Are you referring to a deletion? 
        >  
        > Gary
        >
        > --- On Mon, 9/3/12, hstyri <styri@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: hstyri <styri@...>
        > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed & 23andme
        > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, September 3, 2012, 2:19 PM
        >
        > The problem may be the test method and the way we describe the result. It's commonly called a back mutation, but it's not a SNP that mutates in reverse from derived to ancestral. The new state is neither, and should be labeled a NULL result. The issue may be properly identified in a WTY, but not using single SNP test.
        >
        > Anyway, a WTY is cheaper than testing a series of thirty-something SNPs.
        >
        > Regards,
        > H.Styri
        >
        > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Aaron,
        > > on rare occasions; snips subsequently found to be from palindromic regions of the Y proved to be unstable.  This shouldn't be a problem anymore since the Y should be fully sequenced by now. If the lab is not accounting for this then we have a problem.
        > >  
        > > Since at this point I trust the results I don't feel the need to test more of the Z series.  If you would like to finance the testing of this series through the fund please feel free.
        > >  
        > > Regards,
        > > Gary
        > > Mexico DNA Project Admin. 
        > >  
        > > --- On Sun, 9/2/12, sallfertorr <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
        > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed & 23andme
        > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 5:25 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello, Gary
        > >
        > > I have seen numerous back-mutations but cannot tell you off the top of my head.
        > >
        > > In any case, I believe it is necessary for you to test all of those Z2054 through Z2102 SNP's. Does one a week work for you?
        > >
        > > We can also start a campaign as we have done with the L1228 sector. Only six SNP's to go there.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Aaron Torres
        > >
        > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello Aaron
        > > > I am only aware of very few back mutations in the whole y tree. Other than the other on in M223 and one in r1a what others are you aware of?
        > > >
        > > > What makes you think my snip result is a back mutation?
        > > >
        > > > Gary
        > > > Mexico DNA Project Admin.
        > > >
        > > > Sent from my iPhone
        > > >
        > > > On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:14 AM, "sallfertorr" <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Hello, Gary
        > > > >
        > > > > Our study relies on a chain of SNP results. So we are able to spot back-mutations without the need to question all our results.
        > > > >
        > > > > L1229 has been very reliable throughout Roots. We absolutely need you to test for more of the Z2054 through Z2102 SNP's.
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > Aaron
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ThanksÃÆ'‚ Aaron,
        > > > > > I think if we find back mutations are that frequent in close branch lines of the Y then all our results should come into question.
        > > > > > ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > By the way I have a value of 11 at marker DYS438 which I have found no where else in the roots group and rare in general in the other M223 groups.
        > > > > > ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > > Gary
        > > > > > Mexico DNA Project Admin.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- On Thu, 8/30/12, sallfertorr <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
        > > > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed & 23andme
        > > > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 1:48 PM
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > These are actually the most interesting results for this series so far.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You should test more of them. Maybe your L1229 result was a back-mutation that we caught?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > Aaron Torres
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hello Aaron,
        > > > > > > I tested positive for Z2054.
        > > > > > > I appear to be at theÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ begining of the roots branch.thus far.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Gary
        > > > > > > Mexico DNA Project Admin
        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/18/12, sallfertorr <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
        > > > > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed & 23andme
        > > > > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2012, 10:18 PM
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hello, Gary
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Thanks. That clears some doubts. Whenever you have a chance, I'd recommend testing the Z2054 through Z2102 SNP's we have available: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/I-M223/files/Z2054-Z2102.xlsx . You should pick randomly and test at least a couple.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The results should allow us to clarify whether you truly had a back-mutation at L1229. In that case, I'd move you back to the Roots group.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > > Aaron Torres
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "garyf@" <garyf@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hello Aaron and List,
        > > > > > > > I have tested negative for L701.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > By the way the beta version of 23andme's new genealogy features will go live tomorrow.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Gary
        > > > > > > > Mexico DNA Project Admin.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "sallfertorr" <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Hello, Gary
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Ken Nordtvedt and I have been discussing your case and I brought up whether you wouldn't have had a L1229 back-mutation. The issue is: your STR information demonstrates you would be L1229 positive, but you're not. So you may simply be upstream or you may belong to a whole different group.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > The Roots-X group, which appeared to be a "cluster" fell apart. Hollier and Shorter tested positive for L1228 (I2b1-X). Allen can still test positive for L1229 (Roots). You have tested negative for both. We simply don't know where you fit at this point.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > We believe this new series of Z2054 through Z2102 SNP's may be useful to you, and hopefully it may even allow us to establish whether you had a back-mutation at L1229. We don't know anything yet about them, though, so I can't recommend that you test for specific ones. If you'd like to start experimenting, I think that would be useful.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > It's also important to completely discard the possibility that you come from an old branch of I2b1-XX, though you don't "look" like it. For that, you can test for either L701 or L702.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > > > > Aaron Torres
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Hello Aaron,
        > > > > > > > > > I have tested the following:
        > > > > > > > > > I (P19) positive (FTDNA), M223 positive (EA), P38 positive (EA), S2 positive (EA), M284ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ negative (EA), S23 positive (EA), S24 postive (EA), P78 negative (EA), P95 negative (EA), M379 negative (EA), P222+ Genetree= approx M223.
        > > > > > > > > > Recently L812- L387- L216- L1229- L1228- Oldest known ancestor - Librado Felix, b.1875 Sonora Mexico and my STR's indicate Roots.
        > > > > > > > > > This all equates to M223* (undifferentiated) closes to the root until a branch is found.
        > > > > > > > > > Ken has me as such on his page:
        > > > > > > > > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20M223+.pdf
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > I am wondering why I and the Allen lineÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ appear on the project page now as unclear and ambiguious?ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance,
        > > > > > > > > > Gary
        > > > > > > > > > Mexico DNA Project Admin.
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/26/12, Aaron Salles Torres <sallfertorr@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > From: Aaron Salles Torres <sallfertorr@>
        > > > > > > > > > Subject: [I-M223] Exciting news!!! Early days of M223 to be revealed... (Phase 1)
        > > > > > > > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Astrid Krahn" <astrid@>, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@>
        > > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 9:04 PM
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Hello, all
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Astrid Krahn has worked hard developing the primers for these Z SNP's and they are finally here!
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Most SNP's Z2054 through Z2102 are now available on the FT DNA catalog. As you know, these have the potential of teaching us about the early days of the I2b1/M223 haplogroup. The illustration by Greg Magoon is as follows - notice he places these SNP's upstream from L1229, but they may also be upstream from L701/L702 (Cont3a and I2b1-XX) as well as from M284 (Isles) and L1228 (I2b1-X) and unite these branches, telling us about their history:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > https://www.box.com/s/bef7cc5868cd2a5b574a
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > In other words, we will need all the volunteer power we have. And, in order to get actual results, our testing needs to be coordinated. Therefore, I ask that in Phase 1 we concentrate on SNP's: Z2054, Z2055, Z2056, Z2058, Z2059, Z2061.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > We need a volunteer from each of the mentioned groups (L1229/Roots, L701/L702/Cont3a/I2b1-XX, M284/Isles and L1228/I2b1-X) to test for each one of them. Please note that these SNP's are supposedly upstream ones, so one representative from each group will be enough at this phase. To double check our results, I would ask for a volunteer from the large Z161+ (Continental) group as well to test for each.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Because there are so many SNP's and because they add up, it would be very good if we could work as a team so the costs are distributed evenly within our project. If you place an order for one SNP, please tell the group so the same test doesn't get ordered twice.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > On a similar note, SNP Z185 has also become available on the catalog. So if Z78 or L1198 are your terminal SNP's, please consider ordering this test. A Z79+ volunteer would also be welcome.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > These are exciting times for M223, so thanks in advance for your collaboration.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Aaron Torres
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
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