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L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

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  • paleti20
    Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative? I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
      Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

      I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


      And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

      Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


      Thanks

      Mani
    • Wayne Roberts
      Mani, For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
        
        Mani,
         
        For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.
         
        Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.
         
        Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.
         
        A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.
         
        The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).
         
        L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.
         
        So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.
         
        I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.
         
        Wayne
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM
        Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

         

        Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

        I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


        And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

        Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


        Thanks

        Mani

      • Jeff Gibbon
        Wayne, I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I am L126 positive plus some other interesting SNPs. If you would like I can upload my wtyAlleles to
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

          Wayne,

           

          I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I am L126 positive plus some other interesting SNPs. If you would like I can upload my wtyAlleles to you if you want to look at them. I have also had the 111 YDNA test done as well.

           

          Jeffery W. Gibbon

          Kit #113655

           

           

          From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
          Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:24 AM
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

           

          




          Mani,

           

          For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.

           

          Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.

           

          Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.

           

          A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.

           

          The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).

           

          L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.

           

          So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.

           

          I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.

           

          Wayne

           

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM

          Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

           

           

          Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

          I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


          And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

          Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


          Thanks

          Mani




        • paleti20
          Wayne, Wow! We will get a lot of information and changes in the next future with these Chromo 2 and BIG-Y. I do not understand all. I am glad there are experts
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

            Wayne, Wow! We will get a lot of information and changes in the next future with these Chromo 2 and BIG-Y. I do not understand all. I am glad there are experts to make structure in the tree.

            I am asking for snp PF1253, not PF1252. 

            Are Hobbs and now Gibbon for PF1253 positive or negative?

            Fact is:

            Cochran L-126 is PF1253 + (positive)
            Diaz L-126 is PF1253 – (negative)

            Cheers
            Mani



            ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

            
            Mani,
             
            For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.
             
            Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.
             
            Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.
             
            A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.
             
            The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).
             
            L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.
             
            So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.
             
            I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.
             
            Wayne
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM
            Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

             

            Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

            I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


            And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

            Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


            Thanks

            Mani

          • paleti20
            Wayne, I have readen (other forum): „L320 is derived for all four (two I1, one L126 and one L161), hence upstream of Hg I divisions.“ The L126 sample is
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

              Wayne, I have readen (other forum): „L320 is derived for all four (two I1, one L126 and one L161), hence upstream of Hg I divisions.“

              The L126 sample is Cochran, and all are Chromo 2 results. What does it mean? All samples are plus for L320?

              If yes, I ask me, if FTDNA L320- (minus) could be the same as Chromo 2, L320+ (plus).

              Jeff, what is your WTY L320 result?

              regards
              Mani



              ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <paleti20@...> wrote:

              Jeff, can you look in your WTY data and tell us if your PF1253 is positive (+) or negative (-)?

              regards
              Mani



              ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

              Wayne,

               

              I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I am L126 positive plus some other interesting SNPs. If you would like I can upload my wtyAlleles to you if you want to look at them. I have also had the 111 YDNA test done as well.

               

              Jeffery W. Gibbon

              Kit #113655

               

               

              From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
              Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:24 AM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

               

              




              Mani,

               

              For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.

               

              Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.

               

              Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.

               

              A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.

               

              The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).

               

              L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.

               

              So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.

               

              I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.

               

              Wayne

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM

              Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

               

               

              Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

              I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


              And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

              Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


              Thanks

              Mani




            • paleti20
              Jeff, can you look in your WTY data and tell us if your PF1253 is plus or minus? Regards Mani ... Wayne, I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

                Jeff, can you look in your WTY data and tell us if your PF1253 is plus or minus?

                Regards 
                Mani



                ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                Wayne,

                 

                I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I am L126 positive plus some other interesting SNPs. If you would like I can upload my wtyAlleles to you if you want to look at them. I have also had the 111 YDNA test done as well.

                 

                Jeffery W. Gibbon

                Kit #113655

                 

                 

                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:24 AM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                 

                




                Mani,

                 

                For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.

                 

                Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.

                 

                Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.

                 

                A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.

                 

                The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).

                 

                L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.

                 

                So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.

                 

                I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.

                 

                Wayne

                 

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM

                Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                 

                 

                Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

                I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


                And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

                Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


                Thanks

                Mani




              • Wayne Roberts
                Mani and Jeff I made a typo when I posted my message last night (Australian time). Both Cochran and Hobbs are PF1253+ In 2009 when Jeff Gibbon did his WTY,
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
                  
                  Mani and Jeff
                   
                  I made a typo when I posted my message last night (Australian time).
                   
                  Both Cochran and Hobbs are PF1253+
                   
                  In 2009 when Jeff Gibbon did his WTY, they did not have the PF series of SNPs so we are unable to check. He was not tested for L320. What was found in Gibbon's WTY was two new SNPs - L368+ and L369+. As we know now, L369 is phyloequivalent to L126 and L368 is upstream. He was tested for PAGES00052 and found to be negative.
                   
                  As Mani said, Mani Diaz is PF1253- and L320- by his WTY and was not tested for PAGES00052.
                   
                  Here is what Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote in the Hap. I forum:
                   
                  Comparing four haplogroup I Chromo2 raw datas, two I1, one L126 and one L161.

                  L320 is derived for all four, hence upstream of HgI divisions; same for
                  S5059 and ZS249
                  S26911 is a problem snp with inconsistent results; same for S8620, S8626,
                  S8634, S8648, S8704, S8714.
                   
                  I have checked Cont 2a Anthony's WTY and he is shown as L320- and was not tested for PF1253. I also checked my WTY and I was L320- and PF1253-.
                   
                  It is possible, I guess that the polarity or whatever for the Chromo 2 tests on Cochran, Hobbs and other Hap. I people is reversed so that the ancestral allele is reported as derived. Or the problem was with FTDNA's WTY.
                   
                  We will have to wait for Kenneth to get all the raw data files and cross check as well as more results from others before people rush to order any SNPs.
                   
                  Wayne
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 4:37 AM
                  Subject: RE: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                   

                  Wayne, Wow! We will get a lot of information and changes in the next future with these Chromo 2 and BIG-Y. I do not understand all. I am glad there are experts to make structure in the tree.

                  I am asking for snp PF1253, not PF1252. 

                  Are Hobbs and now Gibbon for PF1253 positive or negative?

                  Fact is:

                  Cochran L-126 is PF1253 + (positive)
                  Diaz L-126 is PF1253 – (negative)

                  Cheers
                  Mani



                  ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                  
                  Mani,
                   
                  For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.
                   
                  Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.
                   
                  Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.
                   
                  A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.
                   
                  The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).
                   
                  L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.
                   
                  So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.
                   
                  I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.
                   
                  Wayne
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM
                  Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                   

                  Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

                  I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


                  And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

                  Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


                  Thanks

                  Mani

                • paleti20
                  Wayne, thank you for your detailed answer, we appreciate very much your work. That is just what I thought. In FTDNA we see minus and in Chromo 2 plus. It is
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

                    Wayne, thank you for your detailed answer, we appreciate very much your work.

                    That is just what I thought. In FTDNA we see minus and in Chromo 2 plus.

                    It is really not clear what a plus or minus means. It should exist one standard for results for these DNA companies, so we can compare better „apples“ with „apples“.

                    Cheers
                    Mani


                  • Wayne Roberts
                    Mani, Yes, I think one company has the wrong value applied to the allele reading. Minus sign means negative, no mutation, which is ancestral for an SNP. Plus
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
                      
                      Mani,
                       
                      Yes, I think one company has the wrong value applied to the allele reading. Minus sign means negative, no mutation, which is ancestral for an SNP. Plus sign means positive, a mutation, which is derived for an SNP.
                       
                      If we go back to Gibbon's 2009 WTY, he has SNP, P97 as T-. If we look at the 2012/20013 WTY results for me, Anthony and you, we have SNP, P97 as T+. Obviously between 2009 and 2012/13 the Krahns at FTDNA realised that a T reading for P97 was in fact derived, the mutated form and not the ancestral form as they previously reported in 2009.
                       
                      The same thing may be the case with some of these other SNPs. For L320 we are reported in WTY with C- which is suppost to be the ancestral, non-mutated state for L320. The raw data needs to be read for Chromo 2 to see what the allele reading actually was. T is stated by Krahn as the derived, mutate state for L320.
                       
                       
                      Wayne
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:23 AM
                      Subject: RE: Re: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                       

                      Wayne, thank you for your detailed answer, we appreciate very much your work.

                      That is just what I thought. In FTDNA we see minus and in Chromo 2 plus.

                      It is really not clear what a plus or minus means. It should exist one standard for results for these DNA companies, so we can compare better „apples“ with „apples“.

                      Cheers
                      Mani


                    • Jeff Gibbon
                      Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it. I have cut and pasted all the P values they did
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013

                        Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it.

                         

                        I have cut and pasted all the P values they did report for my WTY test in 2009

                         

                        Hope this helps,

                         

                        Jeffery W. Gibbon

                        Kit #116355

                         

                        P100

                        C-

                        P101

                        C-

                        P102

                        T-

                        P103

                        C-

                        P104

                        C-

                        P106

                        C-

                        P108

                        T-

                        P109

                        C-

                        P110

                        C-

                        P113

                        A-

                        P115

                        G-

                        P116

                        A-

                        P118

                        ins-

                        P119

                        G-

                        P120

                        C-

                        P122

                        C-

                        P123

                        C+

                        P12_3

                        T-

                        P147

                        T-

                        P15

                        C-

                        P164

                        A-

                        P177

                        C-

                        P18_3

                        G-

                        P2

                        G-

                        P201

                        T-

                        P202

                        T-

                        P20_3

                        ins-

                        P204

                        G-

                        P207

                        G-

                        P212

                        A+

                        P21_3

                        G-

                        P214

                        C+

                        P215

                        G+

                        P216

                        G+

                        P217

                        T+

                        P219

                        G+

                        P220

                        T+

                        P221

                        A+

                        P222

                        G+

                        P223

                        G+

                        P224

                        C-

                        P227

                        G-

                        P229

                        G-

                        P231

                        A-

                        P232

                        G-

                        P234

                        T-

                        P236

                        C-

                        P238

                        G-

                        P242

                        G-

                        P243

                        A-

                        P245

                        T-

                        P25_3

                        G-

                        P254

                        C-

                        P255

                        G-

                        P256

                        G-

                        P258

                        del-

                        P259

                        T-

                        P260

                        A-

                        P261

                        G-

                        P262

                        G-

                        P268

                        T-

                        P269

                        A-

                        P278

                        G-

                        P279

                        G-

                        P280

                        C-

                        P285

                        C-

                        P286

                        C-

                        P289

                        C-

                        P292

                        del-

                        P294

                        G-

                        P297

                        G-

                        P299

                        A-

                        P3

                        C-

                        P30

                        G-

                        P302

                        G-

                        P303

                        T-

                        P310

                        A-

                        P311

                        A-

                        P312

                        C-

                        P314

                        T-

                        P33_3

                        A-

                        P35_3

                        A-

                        P36

                        G-

                        P37.2

                        T-

                        P38

                        C+

                        P39

                        G-

                        P40

                        C-

                        P41.2

                        T-

                        P42

                        C-

                        P48

                        del-

                        P49

                        A-

                        P51

                        T-

                        P52

                        ins-

                        P53

                        T-

                        P54

                        A-

                        P55

                        C-

                        P56

                        A-

                        P57

                        T-

                        P58

                        T-

                        P59

                        A-

                        P60

                        T-

                        P61

                        G-

                        P62

                        del-

                        P63

                        del-

                        P64_3

                        C-

                        P65_3

                        G-

                        P66_3

                        C-

                      • paleti20
                        Jeff, thank you for your P-datas. Wayne, what do you think about this: First I see, in WTY 2012 are more P-SNPs than in WTY 2009, but some P-SNPs that were
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                          Jeff, thank you for your P-datas. Wayne, what do you think about this:

                          First I see, in WTY 2012 are more P-SNPs than in WTY 2009, but some P-SNPs that were tested in WTY 2009 were not tested or maybe renamed in WTY 2012.

                          The other P-SNPs that we have together they almost are identical (both minus or both plus).

                          Only one P-SNP is differently. You are P108 T – (minus) and I am P108 + T (plus).

                          But I do not know if that is a another problem of result interpretation of WTY 2009 and WTY 2012 or you are another M223 subhaplogroup than I am.

                          I think, I am not the first that I am P108T + (plus) and it is not a private SNP, because they told me that there was any new snp found in my WTY test. 

                          regards
                          Mani



                          ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                          Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it.

                           

                          I have cut and pasted all the P values they did report for my WTY test in 2009

                           

                          Hope this helps,

                           

                          Jeffery W. Gibbon

                          Kit #116355

                           

                          P100

                          C-

                          P101

                          C-

                          P102

                          T-

                          P103

                          C-

                          P104

                          C-

                          P106

                          C-

                          P108

                          T-

                          P109

                          C-

                          P110

                          C-

                          P113

                          A-

                          P115

                          G-

                          P116

                          A-

                          P118

                          ins-

                          P119

                          G-

                          P120

                          C-

                          P122

                          C-

                          P123

                          C+

                          P12_3

                          T-

                          P147

                          T-

                          P15

                          C-

                          P164

                          A-

                          P177

                          C-

                          P18_3

                          G-

                          P2

                          G-

                          P201

                          T-

                          P202

                          T-

                          P20_3

                          ins-

                          P204

                          G-

                          P207

                          G-

                          P212

                          A+

                          P21_3

                          G-

                          P214

                          C+

                          P215

                          G+

                          P216

                          G+

                          P217

                          T+

                          P219

                          G+

                          P220

                          T+

                          P221

                          A+

                          P222

                          G+

                          P223

                          G+

                          P224

                          C-

                          P227

                          G-

                          P229

                          G-

                          P231

                          A-

                          P232

                          G-

                          P234

                          T-

                          P236

                          C-

                          P238

                          G-

                          P242

                          G-

                          P243

                          A-

                          P245

                          T-

                          P25_3

                          G-

                          P254

                          C-

                          P255

                          G-

                          P256

                          G-

                          P258

                          del-

                          P259

                          T-

                          P260

                          A-

                          P261

                          G-

                          P262

                          G-

                          P268

                          T-

                          P269

                          A-

                          P278

                          G-

                          P279

                          G-

                          P280

                          C-

                          P285

                          C-

                          P286

                          C-

                          P289

                          C-

                          P292

                          del-

                          P294

                          G-

                          P297

                          G-

                          P299

                          A-

                          P3

                          C-

                          P30

                          G-

                          P302

                          G-

                          P303

                          T-

                          P310

                          A-

                          P311

                          A-

                          P312

                          C-

                          P314

                          T-

                          P33_3

                          A-

                          P35_3

                          A-

                          P36

                          G-

                          P37.2

                          T-

                          P38

                          C+

                          P39

                          G-

                          P40

                          C-

                          P41.2

                          T-

                          P42

                          C-

                          P48

                          del-

                          P49

                          A-

                          P51

                          T-

                          P52

                          ins-

                          P53

                          T-

                          P54

                          A-

                          P55

                          C-

                          P56

                          A-

                          P57

                          T-

                          P58

                          T-

                          P59

                          A-

                          P60

                          T-

                          P61

                          G-

                          P62

                          del-

                          P63

                          del-

                          P64_3

                          C-

                          P65_3

                          G-

                          P66_3

                          C-

                        • paleti20
                          Sorry Jeff, I see you are L-126. Then, P108 could be interesting, if FTDNA have not done another interpretation mistake between WTY 2006 and 2012/13. Mani
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                            Sorry Jeff, I see you are L-126.

                            Then, P108 could be interesting, if FTDNA have not done another interpretation mistake between WTY 2006 and 2012/13.


                            Mani
                             



                          • Wayne Roberts
                            Mani I think the P108 plus/minus thing is an error for one of us. As we both read as T, then we are both the same so we are either both plus or both minus. It
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013
                              
                              Mani
                               
                              I think the P108 plus/minus thing is an error for one of us. As we both read as T, then we are both the same so we are either both plus or both minus. It is not the plus or minus that is important. It is the base reading of A, C, G or T. For example, if we all have C then we are all the same, either all ancestral or all derived. If some have C and some have A then some will be ancestral and some will be derived.
                               
                              Wayne
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:41 AM
                              Subject: RE: RE: RE: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                               

                              Jeff, thank you for your P-datas. Wayne, what do you think about this:

                              First I see, in WTY 2012 are more P-SNPs than in WTY 2009, but some P-SNPs that were tested in WTY 2009 were not tested or maybe renamed in WTY 2012.

                              The other P-SNPs that we have together they almost are identical (both minus or both plus).

                              Only one P-SNP is differently. You are P108 T – (minus) and I am P108 + T (plus).

                              But I do not know if that is a another problem of result interpretation of WTY 2009 and WTY 2012 or you are another M223 subhaplogroup than I am.

                              I think, I am not the first that I am P108T + (plus) and it is not a private SNP, because they told me that there was any new snp found in my WTY test. 

                              regards
                              Mani



                              ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                              Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it.

                               

                              I have cut and pasted all the P values they did report for my WTY test in 2009

                               

                              Hope this helps,

                               

                              Jeffery W. Gibbon

                              Kit #116355

                               

                              P100

                              C-

                              P101

                              C-

                              P102

                              T-

                              P103

                              C-

                              P104

                              C-

                              P106

                              C-

                              P108

                              T-

                              P109

                              C-

                              P110

                              C-

                              P113

                              A-

                              P115

                              G-

                              P116

                              A-

                              P118

                              ins-

                              P119

                              G-

                              P120

                              C-

                              P122

                              C-

                              P123

                              C+

                              P12_3

                              T-

                              P147

                              T-

                              P15

                              C-

                              P164

                              A-

                              P177

                              C-

                              P18_3

                              G-

                              P2

                              G-

                              P201

                              T-

                              P202

                              T-

                              P20_3

                              ins-

                              P204

                              G-

                              P207

                              G-

                              P212

                              A+

                              P21_3

                              G-

                              P214

                              C+

                              P215

                              G+

                              P216

                              G+

                              P217

                              T+

                              P219

                              G+

                              P220

                              T+

                              P221

                              A+

                              P222

                              G+

                              P223

                              G+

                              P224

                              C-

                              P227

                              G-

                              P229

                              G-

                              P231

                              A-

                              P232

                              G-

                              P234

                              T-

                              P236

                              C-

                              P238

                              G-

                              P242

                              G-

                              P243

                              A-

                              P245

                              T-

                              P25_3

                              G-

                              P254

                              C-

                              P255

                              G-

                              P256

                              G-

                              P258

                              del-

                              P259

                              T-

                              P260

                              A-

                              P261

                              G-

                              P262

                              G-

                              P268

                              T-

                              P269

                              A-

                              P278

                              G-

                              P279

                              G-

                              P280

                              C-

                              P285

                              C-

                              P286

                              C-

                              P289

                              C-

                              P292

                              del-

                              P294

                              G-

                              P297

                              G-

                              P299

                              A-

                              P3

                              C-

                              P30

                              G-

                              P302

                              G-

                              P303

                              T-

                              P310

                              A-

                              P311

                              A-

                              P312

                              C-

                              P314

                              T-

                              P33_3

                              A-

                              P35_3

                              A-

                              P36

                              G-

                              P37.2

                              T-

                              P38

                              C+

                              P39

                              G-

                              P40

                              C-

                              P41.2

                              T-

                              P42

                              C-

                              P48

                              del-

                              P49

                              A-

                              P51

                              T-

                              P52

                              ins-

                              P53

                              T-

                              P54

                              A-

                              P55

                              C-

                              P56

                              A-

                              P57

                              T-

                              P58

                              T-

                              P59

                              A-

                              P60

                              T-

                              P61

                              G-

                              P62

                              del-

                              P63

                              del-

                              P64_3

                              C-

                              P65_3

                              G-

                              P66_3

                              C-

                            • Jeff Gibbon
                              Mani, I am sorry but I do not have an L320 result with the earlier test. Jeffery W. Gibbon Kit #116355 From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                                Mani,

                                 

                                I am sorry but I do not have an L320 result with the earlier test.

                                 

                                Jeffery W. Gibbon

                                Kit #116355

                                 

                                 

                                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paleti20@...
                                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:41 PM
                                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: RE: RE: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                 




                                Wayne, I have readen (other forum): „L320 is derived for all four (two I1, one L126 and one L161), hence upstream of Hg I divisions.“

                                The L126 sample is Cochran, and all are Chromo 2 results. What does it mean? All samples are plus for L320?

                                If yes, I ask me, if FTDNA L320- (minus) could be the same as Chromo 2, L320+ (plus).

                                Jeff, what is your WTY L320 result?

                                regards
                                Mani



                                ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <paleti20@...> wrote:

                                Jeff, can you look in your WTY data and tell us if your PF1253 is positive (+) or negative (-)?

                                regards
                                Mani

                                 

                                ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                                Wayne,

                                 

                                I had the original FTDNA WTY test done in 2009 and I am L126 positive plus some other interesting SNPs. If you would like I can upload my wtyAlleles to you if you want to look at them. I have also had the 111 YDNA test done as well.

                                 

                                Jeffery W. Gibbon

                                Kit #113655

                                 

                                 

                                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
                                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:24 AM
                                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                 

                                



                                Mani,

                                 

                                For one thing, Walk Through the Y (WTY) test was performed by Family Tree DNA and has now been superceded by their new Big Y test. I do not have access to all the WTY files at FTDNA nor do I know who or when has done WTY unless someone tells me or I go checking every member in our I-M223 Project.

                                 

                                Now, Jason Cochran who may or may not be a customer of FTDNA, tested with ScotlandsDNA. His data that you are referring to comes from the Chromo 2 test offered by BritainsDNA and ScotlandsDNA. He posted his derived (positive) SNPs from Chromo 2 test on another Forum and I have been having a look at them today. In old terms he is I-L126 or as some put it I2-L126 which is Isles Limbo, Isles Scots and Isles Irish in our I-M2223 Project.

                                 

                                Today, one of our own Project members, Doug Hobbs from our Roots R889 clade in the Project also received his Chromo 2 derived SNP results. I have done a comparison of the derived SNPs for Hobbs and Cochran. Cochran has 28 derived SNPs that Hobbs does not have and Hobbs has 41 derived SNPs that Cochran does not have. Some of those 28 derived SNPs Cochran has that Hobbs does not will be known SNPs such as M284, L1195, L369. Some will be new SNPs for M284 sector as a whole, some for only L126 and some will be for a branch downstream of L126 that others may also share and finally some will be private SNPs that only Cochran and his male Cochran family members will have.

                                 

                                A SNP mutation is not restricted to just one Haplogroup. Yes, some mutations define a Haplogroup and it's branches while others can mutate independantly at different times in more than one Haplogroup. Where this occurs they are identified as L147, L147.1, L147.2, L147.3 and L147.4 for example. If it is a private mutation occurance it may not get the same recognition as if it was found in a number of not closely related men of differing surnames. This may be the same with both SNPs you are referring to. L320 was previously recorded in the Sardinian Genome Study as PF6092 in Haplogroup R-P297. It was most likely also identified at FTDNA and given L320. PF1252 is found derived in both Cochran and Hobbs so it is more likely to be an SNP upstream of M223 and all I-M223 will be derived for it.

                                 

                                The following is a list of those SNPs that Cochran was derived (positive) for that Hobbs was found to be ancestral (negative).

                                 

                                L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 and of course he has M284 and L1195 (Isles) and L369 associated with Isles Scots. He is also shown as S12547(+) while Hobbs is shown as S12547!. This implies that Cochran is derived for S12547 while Hobbs would normally have been derived also but he has had a back mutation of that SNP to ancestral. I do not know where in the tree this SNP is located.

                                 

                                So you should be able to assume that L320, PF4915, S10965, S12985, S165, S26911, S27511, S5059, S8556, S8560, S8563, S8565, S8567, S8568, S8569, S8620, S8626, S8634, S8648, S8704, S8705, S8714, S8752, Z2300 and ZS249 fall somewhere downstream of CTS616 and CTS9183 where L1229 and M284 split off. We will not know their placement in the tree until more people from M284, L1193 and L126 test with Chromo 2 or Big Y and comparisons of their derived SNPs are made.

                                 

                                I will post separately the list of derived SNPs that Hobbs from Roots R889 had that Cochran was ancestral for.

                                 

                                Wayne

                                 

                                ----- Original Message -----

                                Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 11:15 PM

                                Subject: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                 

                                 

                                Wayne, can you tell us, if the WTY testd L126 Isles-Scots are sooner L320, PF1253 positive or negative?

                                I do not know, if Jason Cochran was the first, who was tested positive for PF1253, but this snp is listed in the WTY-tests (version 2012), too.


                                And do you know something about snp L320? Why it is also listed under R1b1a (isogg-tree)? Normally, a snp defines a single haplogroup and not two (Cochran is L320+ and S165+(=L126+)).

                                Something is wrong. Wrong because E10220 is negative for L320 and it is L126+, too.


                                Thanks

                                Mani






                              • Jeff Gibbon
                                Mani, I am in I2b1a1 Jeffery W. Gibbon Kit #113655 From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paleti20@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                                  Mani,

                                   

                                  I am in I2b1a1

                                   

                                  Jeffery W. Gibbon

                                  Kit #113655

                                   

                                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paleti20@...
                                  Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:41 AM
                                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: RE: RE: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                   




                                  Jeff, thank you for your P-datas. Wayne, what do you think about this:

                                  First I see, in WTY 2012 are more P-SNPs than in WTY 2009, but some P-SNPs that were tested in WTY 2009 were not tested or maybe renamed in WTY 2012.

                                  The other P-SNPs that we have together they almost are identical (both minus or both plus).

                                  Only one P-SNP is differently. You are P108 T – (minus) and I am P108 + T (plus).

                                  But I do not know if that is a another problem of result interpretation of WTY 2009 and WTY 2012 or you are another M223 subhaplogroup than I am.

                                  I think, I am not the first that I am P108T + (plus) and it is not a private SNP, because they told me that there was any new snp found in my WTY test. 

                                  regards
                                  Mani



                                  ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                                  Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it.

                                   

                                  I have cut and pasted all the P values they did report for my WTY test in 2009

                                   

                                  Hope this helps,

                                   

                                  Jeffery W. Gibbon

                                  Kit #116355

                                   

                                  P100

                                  C-

                                  P101

                                  C-

                                  P102

                                  T-

                                  P103

                                  C-

                                  P104

                                  C-

                                  P106

                                  C-

                                  P108

                                  T-

                                  P109

                                  C-

                                  P110

                                  C-

                                  P113

                                  A-

                                  P115

                                  G-

                                  P116

                                  A-

                                  P118

                                  ins-

                                  P119

                                  G-

                                  P120

                                  C-

                                  P122

                                  C-

                                  P123

                                  C+

                                  P12_3

                                  T-

                                  P147

                                  T-

                                  P15

                                  C-

                                  P164

                                  A-

                                  P177

                                  C-

                                  P18_3

                                  G-

                                  P2

                                  G-

                                  P201

                                  T-

                                  P202

                                  T-

                                  P20_3

                                  ins-

                                  P204

                                  G-

                                  P207

                                  G-

                                  P212

                                  A+

                                  P21_3

                                  G-

                                  P214

                                  C+

                                  P215

                                  G+

                                  P216

                                  G+

                                  P217

                                  T+

                                  P219

                                  G+

                                  P220

                                  T+

                                  P221

                                  A+

                                  P222

                                  G+

                                  P223

                                  G+

                                  P224

                                  C-

                                  P227

                                  G-

                                  P229

                                  G-

                                  P231

                                  A-

                                  P232

                                  G-

                                  P234

                                  T-

                                  P236

                                  C-

                                  P238

                                  G-

                                  P242

                                  G-

                                  P243

                                  A-

                                  P245

                                  T-

                                  P25_3

                                  G-

                                  P254

                                  C-

                                  P255

                                  G-

                                  P256

                                  G-

                                  P258

                                  del-

                                  P259

                                  T-

                                  P260

                                  A-

                                  P261

                                  G-

                                  P262

                                  G-

                                  P268

                                  T-

                                  P269

                                  A-

                                  P278

                                  G-

                                  P279

                                  G-

                                  P280

                                  C-

                                  P285

                                  C-

                                  P286

                                  C-

                                  P289

                                  C-

                                  P292

                                  del-

                                  P294

                                  G-

                                  P297

                                  G-

                                  P299

                                  A-

                                  P3

                                  C-

                                  P30

                                  G-

                                  P302

                                  G-

                                  P303

                                  T-

                                  P310

                                  A-

                                  P311

                                  A-

                                  P312

                                  C-

                                  P314

                                  T-

                                  P33_3

                                • paleti20
                                  Wayne, I see, it is the the plus-minus report of FTDNA that have confused me. I think, I have understood what they mean. They write the unequivocal letter we
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                                    Wayne, I see, it is the the plus-minus report of FTDNA that have confused me.

                                    I think, I have understood what they mean.

                                    They write the unequivocal letter we have at each SNP, and plus or minus do only describe that the mentioned letter is the normal, the first, the ancestral letter or not.

                                    That means guys with the same letter „T“ in P108 are identical. The plus/minus is only an interpretetion of FTDNA for ancenstral or not.

                                    Mani



                                    ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                    
                                    Mani
                                     
                                    I think the P108 plus/minus thing is an error for one of us. As we both read as T, then we are both the same so we are either both plus or both minus. It is not the plus or minus that is important. It is the base reading of A, C, G or T. For example, if we all have C then we are all the same, either all ancestral or all derived. If some have C and some have A then some will be ancestral and some will be derived.
                                     
                                    Wayne
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:41 AM
                                    Subject: RE: RE: RE: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                     

                                    Jeff, thank you for your P-datas. Wayne, what do you think about this:

                                    First I see, in WTY 2012 are more P-SNPs than in WTY 2009, but some P-SNPs that were tested in WTY 2009 were not tested or maybe renamed in WTY 2012.

                                    The other P-SNPs that we have together they almost are identical (both minus or both plus).

                                    Only one P-SNP is differently. You are P108 T – (minus) and I am P108 + T (plus).

                                    But I do not know if that is a another problem of result interpretation of WTY 2009 and WTY 2012 or you are another M223 subhaplogroup than I am.

                                    I think, I am not the first that I am P108T + (plus) and it is not a private SNP, because they told me that there was any new snp found in my WTY test. 

                                    regards
                                    Mani



                                    ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <jguss43@...> wrote:

                                    Sorry Mani, but that is not one of the results included in that test back then unless they have renamed it.

                                     

                                    I have cut and pasted all the P values they did report for my WTY test in 2009

                                     

                                    Hope this helps,

                                     

                                    Jeffery W. Gibbon

                                    Kit #116355

                                     

                                    P100

                                    C-

                                    P101

                                    C-

                                    P102

                                    T-

                                    P103

                                    C-

                                    P104

                                    C-

                                    P106

                                    C-

                                    P108

                                    T-

                                    P109

                                    C-

                                    P110

                                    C-

                                    P113

                                    A-

                                    P115

                                    G-

                                    P116

                                    A-

                                    P118

                                    ins-

                                    P119

                                    G-

                                    P120

                                    C-

                                    P122

                                    C-

                                    P123

                                    C+

                                    P12_3

                                    T-

                                    P147

                                    T-

                                    P15

                                    C-

                                    P164

                                    A-

                                    P177

                                    C-

                                    P18_3

                                    G-

                                    P2

                                    G-

                                    P201

                                    T-

                                    P202

                                    T-

                                    P20_3

                                    ins-

                                    P204

                                    G-

                                    P207

                                    G-

                                    P212

                                    A+

                                    P21_3

                                    G-

                                    P214

                                    C+

                                    P215

                                    G+

                                    P216

                                    G+

                                    P217

                                    T+

                                    P219

                                    G+

                                    P220

                                    T+

                                    P221

                                    A+

                                    P222

                                    G+

                                    P223

                                    G+

                                    P224

                                    C-

                                    P227

                                    G-

                                    P229

                                    G-

                                    P231

                                    A-

                                    P232

                                    G-

                                    P234

                                    T-

                                    P236

                                    C-

                                    P238

                                    G-

                                    P242

                                    G-

                                    P243

                                    A-

                                    P245

                                    T-

                                    P25_3

                                    G-

                                    P254

                                    C-

                                    P255

                                    G-

                                    P256

                                    G-

                                    P258

                                    del-

                                    P259

                                    T-

                                    P260

                                    A-

                                    P261

                                    G-

                                    P262

                                    G-

                                    P268

                                    T-

                                    P269

                                    A-

                                    P278

                                    G-

                                    P279

                                    G-

                                    P280

                                    C-

                                    P285

                                    C-

                                    P286

                                    C-

                                    P289

                                    C-

                                    P292

                                    del-

                                    P294

                                    G-

                                    P297

                                    G-

                                    P299

                                    A-

                                    P3

                                    C-

                                    P30

                                    G-

                                    P302

                                    G-

                                    P303

                                    T-

                                    P310

                                    A-

                                    P311

                                    A-

                                    P312

                                    C-

                                    P314

                                    T-

                                    P33_3

                                    A-

                                    P35_3

                                    A-

                                    P36

                                    G-

                                    P37.2

                                    T-

                                    P38

                                    C+

                                    P39

                                    G-

                                    P40

                                    C-

                                    P41.2

                                    T-

                                    P42

                                    C-

                                    P48

                                    del-

                                    P49

                                    A-

                                    P51

                                    T-

                                    P52

                                    ins-

                                    P53

                                    T-

                                    P54

                                    A-

                                    P55

                                    C-

                                    P56

                                    A-

                                    P57

                                    T-

                                    P58

                                    T-

                                    P59

                                    A-

                                    P60

                                    T-

                                    P61

                                    G-

                                    P62

                                    del-

                                    P63

                                    del-

                                    P64_3

                                    C-

                                    P65_3

                                    G-

                                    P66_3

                                    C-

                                  • paleti20
                                    Sorry Jeff, but even though you are minus and I am plus at in P108, we are identical, because we have the same letter „T“. Please read my post no. 3693.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                                      Sorry Jeff, but even though you are minus and I am plus at in P108, we are identical, because we have the same letter „T“. Please read my post no. 3693.

                                      Mani



                                    • Jeff Gibbon
                                      Thanks Mani, Jeff From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paleti20@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:23 PM To:
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 23, 2013

                                         

                                         

                                        Thanks Mani,

                                         

                                        Jeff

                                         

                                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paleti20@...
                                        Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:23 PM
                                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: [I-M223] L-126 - Isles Scot or not?

                                         




                                        Sorry Jeff, but even though you are minus and I am plus at in P108, we are identical, because we have the same letter „T“. Please read my post no. 3693.

                                        Mani

                                         




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