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How, when, where and Y to next

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  • Wayne Roberts
    I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 13, 2013
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      I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
       
      I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
       
      I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
       
      The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
       
      Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
       
      Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
       
      Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
       
      If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
       
      Best wishes to all
      Wayne Roberts
      kit 214599
       
    • 031a2a5e901734e888b6aa0eb8540256
      Wayne- I have just seen your kind offer of advising the DNA challenged as to what tests would be in best interests. I dropped an email to the administrator
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 13, 2013
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         Wayne- I have just seen your kind offer of advising the DNA challenged as to what tests would be in best interests. I dropped an email to the administrator email address prior to reading this asking the same question- I do not know how busy they are and if an answer may be forthcoming- so I will ask here also.  I am currently sitting in an ungrouped 37 marker area and wondering what would be the best next step. I clearly haven't grasped the significance if everything but would like to gather and refine whatever information I can to assist in my learning and determining significance of a match.

        Any input much appreciated . 

        Laurence McHale Kit B6354



        ---In i-m223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

        I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
         
        I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
         
        I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
         
        The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
         
        Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
         
        Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
         
        Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
         
        If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
         
        Best wishes to all
        Wayne Roberts
        kit 214599
         
      • Jørgen K. Kanters
        Dear Wayne I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 13, 2013
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          Dear Wayne

          I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

          So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

          Jorgen

          Sendt fra min iPad

          Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

          I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
           
          I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
           
          I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
           
          The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
           
          Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
           
          Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
           
          Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
           
          If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
           
          Best wishes to all
          Wayne Roberts
          kit 214599
           

        • Wayne Roberts
          Thanks Jorgen for your message. At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test: A) M223 -- CTS616 -- CTS10057 -- L701 -- P78 B) M223 --
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
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            Thanks Jorgen for your message.
             
            At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
             
            A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
            B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
            C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
            D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
            E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
            F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
            G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
            H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
            I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
             
            Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
             
            If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
             
            A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
             
            We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
             
            Z161*
            Z161 --> L623/L147
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
             
            That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
             
            And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
             
            The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
             
            Wayne
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

             

            Dear Wayne

            I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

            So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

            Jorgen

            Sendt fra min iPad

            Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

            I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
             
            I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
             
            I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
             
            The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
             
            Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
             
            Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
             
            Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
             
            If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
             
            Best wishes to all
            Wayne Roberts
            kit 214599
             

          • Wayne Roberts
            Hello Laurence, Welcome to the I-M223 Project and this list. I have been studying your 37 marker haplotype since you joined and trying to work out to which
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
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              Hello Laurence,
               
              Welcome to the I-M223 Project and this list.
               
              I have been studying your 37 marker haplotype since you joined and trying to work out to which group you fit best with. This is why you still linger in the Ungrouped section.
               
              You have an identical 37 marker Haplotype with fellow new member Graeme Wardlaw kit 30035. It would certainly help to type you and Graeme if you had 67 markers. At present you look like you fall into the Continental Z161 sector, most likely one of the CTS6433 groups.
               
              If you did not wish to take advantage of the Special Offers sale and upgrade to 67 markers you could go into Order an Upgrade, then select Order an Advance Test (do not select Order Advanced SNP test), then for type select SNP and for marker, type in CTS6433, find then when it appears with price of $39, click on Add to place in your cart then Next to go to payment.
               
              Sometimes it can be very very difficult to classify people with just 12, 25 and sometimes 37 markers without SNP testing. There are markers in the 38-67 panels that can more clearly identify which group or clade one belongs to.
               
              Best wishes
              Wayne Roberts
              Volunteer Co-Administrator
              I-M223 Project
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:04 PM
              Subject: [I-M223] RE: How, when, where and Y to next

               

               Wayne- I have just seen your kind offer of advising the DNA challenged as to what tests would be in best interests. I dropped an email to the administrator email address prior to reading this asking the same question- I do not know how busy they are and if an answer may be forthcoming- so I will ask here also.  I am currently sitting in an ungrouped 37 marker area and wondering what would be the best next step. I clearly haven't grasped the significance if everything but would like to gather and refine whatever information I can to assist in my learning and determining significance of a match.

              Any input much appreciated . 

              Laurence McHale Kit B6354



              ---In i-m223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

              I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
               
              I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
               
              I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
               
              The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
               
              Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
               
              Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
               
              Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
               
              If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
               
              Best wishes to all
              Wayne Roberts
              kit 214599
               

            • Wayne Roberts
              If people from say large groups like those found in M284 and downstream of that SNP (L1195, L1193, L1194, L126) cannot afford to outlay $495 for Big Y,
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
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                If people from say large groups like those found in M284 and downstream of that SNP (L1195, L1193, L1194, L126) cannot afford to outlay $495 for Big Y, donations from members to the Project Fund could be directed towards having selected people Big Y tested. It is a thought and Aaron would have to look into if this could be done.
                 
                Wayne
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                 

                Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                 
                At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                 
                A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                 
                Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                 
                If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                 
                A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                 
                We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                 
                Z161*
                Z161 --> L623/L147
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                 
                That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                 
                And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                 
                The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                 
                Wayne
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                 

                Dear Wayne

                I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                Jorgen

                Sendt fra min iPad

                Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                 
                I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                 
                I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                 
                The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                 
                Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                 
                Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                 
                Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                 
                If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                 
                Best wishes to all
                Wayne Roberts
                kit 214599
                 

              • Wayne Roberts
                This was posted in another Forum today. Wayne. I posted some days ago that FTDNA is said to only have capacity for 2,000 SNPs in their catalogue. If you add
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  This was posted in another Forum today.

                  Wayne.

                  I posted some days ago that FTDNA is said to only have capacity for 2,000
                  SNPs in their catalogue. If you add new ones, you have to remove others.

                  If there are now in excess of 47,000 known SNPs, 2,000 is pretty useless
                  for those who wish to test single SNPs. What the community needs is a
                  company willing to have a much larger catalogue, that may be Full Genomes.
                  They have suggested they have plans to test single SNPs. We will know about
                  their catalogue in due course.

                  On another subject, it is very good news that Big-Y will now enable
                  downloads of raw data, although I haven't heard which format will be used,
                  yet. I have asked analysing co's whether they will analyse Big-Y raw data,
                  and if so, the costs. At present, one company analyses Full Genomes data
                  for free.
                • joaobraz_2000
                  Hi Wayne, I m PF3590+ and got excited by this group Z161 -- L801/Z76/Z183 -- CTS6433 -- Z78/Z171 -- L1198/Z185 -- Z166/Z180/Z187 -- PF3590 thinking that
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Hi Wayne,


                    I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                    thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                    On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                    JOAO

                    260237



                    ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                    Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                     
                    At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                     
                    A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                    B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                    C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                    D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                    E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                    F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                    G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                    H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                    I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                     
                    Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                     
                    If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                     
                    A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                     
                    We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                     
                    Z161*
                    Z161 --> L623/L147
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                     
                    That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                     
                    And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                     
                    The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                     
                    Wayne
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                     

                    Dear Wayne

                    I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                    So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                    Jorgen

                    Sendt fra min iPad

                    Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                    I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                     
                    I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                     
                    I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                     
                    The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                     
                    Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                     
                    Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                     
                    Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                     
                    If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                     
                    Best wishes to all
                    Wayne Roberts
                    kit 214599
                     

                  • Bobby Carpenter
                    Hi Wayne and JOAO, There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade. FTDNA ID # 6060. Bob
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                      There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                      Bob Carpenter

                      On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:
                       

                      Hi Wayne,


                      I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                      thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                      On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                      JOAO

                      260237



                      ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                      Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                       
                      At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                       
                      A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                      B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                      C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                      D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                      E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                      F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                      G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                      H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                      I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                       
                      Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                       
                      If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                       
                      A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                       
                      We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                       
                      Z161*
                      Z161 --> L623/L147
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                       
                      That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                       
                      And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                       
                      The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                       
                      Wayne
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                       

                      Dear Wayne

                      I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                      So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                      Jorgen

                      Sendt fra min iPad

                      Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                      I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                       
                      I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                       
                      I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                       
                      The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                       
                      Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                       
                      Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                       
                      Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                       
                      If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                       
                      Best wishes to all
                      Wayne Roberts
                      kit 214599
                       


                    • Wayne Roberts
                      Joao, Bob and others, Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        
                        Joao, Bob and others,
                         
                        Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only Nelson who is also PF5268+, has different alleles to all others in I-M223 and therefore is the actual positive. It is a bit more confusing in that the reported ancestral state is G, derived state is A. Our I-M223 Geno 2.0 members have T T while Nelson has T C. This is why FTDNA misread the alleles when Geno data was transferred and misreported them as derived (positive).
                         
                        Wayne
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:34 AM
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                         

                        Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                        There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                        Bob Carpenter

                        On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:

                         

                        Hi Wayne,


                        I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                        thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                        On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                        JOAO

                        260237



                        ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                        Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                         
                        At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                         
                        A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                        B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                        C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                        D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                        E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                        F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                        G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                        H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                        I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                         
                        Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                         
                        If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                         
                        A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                         
                        We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                         
                        Z161*
                        Z161 --> L623/L147
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                         
                        That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                         
                        And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                         
                        The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                         
                        Wayne
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                         

                        Dear Wayne

                        I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                        So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                        Jorgen

                        Sendt fra min iPad

                        Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                        I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                         
                        I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                         
                        I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                         
                        The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                         
                        Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                         
                        Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                         
                        Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                         
                        If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                         
                        Best wishes to all
                        Wayne Roberts
                        kit 214599
                         


                      • 031a2a5e901734e888b6aa0eb8540256
                        Thanks Wayne - I have ordered an increase to 67 markers- see where that takes us. ...  Hello Laurence, Welcome to the I-M223 Project and this list. I have
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Thanks Wayne - I have ordered an increase to 67 markers- see where that takes us. 



                          ---In i-m223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                          
                          Hello Laurence,
                           
                          Welcome to the I-M223 Project and this list.
                           
                          I have been studying your 37 marker haplotype since you joined and trying to work out to which group you fit best with. This is why you still linger in the Ungrouped section.
                           
                          You have an identical 37 marker Haplotype with fellow new member Graeme Wardlaw kit 30035. It would certainly help to type you and Graeme if you had 67 markers. At present you look like you fall into the Continental Z161 sector, most likely one of the CTS6433 groups.
                           
                          If you did not wish to take advantage of the Special Offers sale and upgrade to 67 markers you could go into Order an Upgrade, then select Order an Advance Test (do not select Order Advanced SNP test), then for type select SNP and for marker, type in CTS6433, find then when it appears with price of $39, click on Add to place in your cart then Next to go to payment.
                           
                          Sometimes it can be very very difficult to classify people with just 12, 25 and sometimes 37 markers without SNP testing. There are markers in the 38-67 panels that can more clearly identify which group or clade one belongs to.
                           
                          Best wishes
                          Wayne Roberts
                          Volunteer Co-Administrator
                          I-M223 Project
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:04 PM
                          Subject: [I-M223] RE: How, when, where and Y to next

                           

                           Wayne- I have just seen your kind offer of advising the DNA challenged as to what tests would be in best interests. I dropped an email to the administrator email address prior to reading this asking the same question- I do not know how busy they are and if an answer may be forthcoming- so I will ask here also.  I am currently sitting in an ungrouped 37 marker area and wondering what would be the best next step. I clearly haven't grasped the significance if everything but would like to gather and refine whatever information I can to assist in my learning and determining significance of a match.

                          Any input much appreciated . 

                          Laurence McHale Kit B6354



                          ---In i-m223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                          I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                           
                          I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                           
                          I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                           
                          The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                           
                          Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                           
                          Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                           
                          Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                           
                          If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                           
                          Best wishes to all
                          Wayne Roberts
                          kit 214599
                           
                        • Wayne Roberts
                          Hi Bob, Ummmm, you are correct. I m not sure why I missed this but you and Nelson are not the only ones. Seems I missed several of the members Alsop, Collins,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 14, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            
                            Hi Bob,
                             
                            Ummmm, you are correct. I'm not sure why I missed this but you and Nelson are not the only ones. Seems I missed several of the members Alsop, Collins, McCall, Hausman, Anthony and Eastin.
                             
                            On that "revelation", it would appear PF3590 is unreliable from Geno 2.0 as it makes no sense given that some members that are CTS6433, Z78+ have it while others do not and that some CTS6433, Z78- have it while others do not and some that are CTS1977 have it and others do not.
                             
                            Sorry for getting people's hopes up. It was a tricky one for me to detect given the T C and confusing when G G should have been ancestral and A A derived.
                             
                            Wayne
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:05 AM
                            Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                            Hi Wayne,

                            I just re-checked my raw data for PF3590, it reads T  C

                            Thanks  Bob Carpenter

                            On 11/14/2013 1:13 PM, Wayne Roberts wrote:
                             

                            

                            Joao, Bob and others,
                             
                            Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only Nelson who is also PF5268+, has different alleles to all others in I-M223 and therefore is the actual positive. It is a bit more confusing in that the reported ancestral state is G, derived state is A. Our I-M223 Geno 2.0 members have T T while Nelson has T C. This is why FTDNA misread the alleles when Geno data was transferred and misreported them as derived (positive).
                             
                            Wayne
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:34 AM
                            Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                             

                            Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                            There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                            Bob Carpenter

                            On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:

                             

                            Hi Wayne,


                            I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                            thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                            On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                            JOAO

                            260237



                            ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                            Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                             
                            At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                             
                            A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                            B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                            C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                            D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                            E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                            F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                            G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                            H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                            I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                             
                            Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                             
                            If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                             
                            A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                             
                            We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                             
                            Z161*
                            Z161 --> L623/L147
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                            Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                             
                            That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                             
                            And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                             
                            The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                             
                            Wayne
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                            Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                             
                            Dear Wayne

                            I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                            So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                            Jorgen

                            Sendt fra min iPad

                            Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                            I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                             
                            I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                             
                            I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                             
                            The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                             
                            Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                             
                            Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                             
                            Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                             
                            If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                             
                            Best wishes to all
                            Wayne Roberts
                            kit 214599
                             



                          • joaobraz_2000
                            Hi Wayne, Great!, So we all agree that PF3590 does not constitute a separate group within Z166+? JOAO ...  Hi Bob, Ummmm, you are correct. I m not sure why
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 15, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Hi Wayne,


                              Great!, So we all agree that PF3590 does not constitute a separate group within Z166+?


                              JOAO



                              ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                              
                              Hi Bob,
                               
                              Ummmm, you are correct. I'm not sure why I missed this but you and Nelson are not the only ones. Seems I missed several of the members Alsop, Collins, McCall, Hausman, Anthony and Eastin.
                               
                              On that "revelation", it would appear PF3590 is unreliable from Geno 2.0 as it makes no sense given that some members that are CTS6433, Z78+ have it while others do not and that some CTS6433, Z78- have it while others do not and some that are CTS1977 have it and others do not.
                               
                              Sorry for getting people's hopes up. It was a tricky one for me to detect given the T C and confusing when G G should have been ancestral and A A derived.
                               
                              Wayne
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:05 AM
                              Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                              Hi Wayne,

                              I just re-checked my raw data for PF3590, it reads T  C

                              Thanks  Bob Carpenter

                              On 11/14/2013 1:13 PM, Wayne Roberts wrote:
                               

                              

                              Joao, Bob and others,
                               
                              Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only Nelson who is also PF5268+, has different alleles to all others in I-M223 and therefore is the actual positive. It is a bit more confusing in that the reported ancestral state is G, derived state is A. Our I-M223 Geno 2.0 members have T T while Nelson has T C. This is why FTDNA misread the alleles when Geno data was transferred and misreported them as derived (positive).
                               
                              Wayne
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:34 AM
                              Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                               

                              Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                              There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                              Bob Carpenter

                              On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:

                               

                              Hi Wayne,


                              I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                              thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                              On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                              JOAO

                              260237



                              ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                              Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                               
                              At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                               
                              A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                              B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                              C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                              D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                              E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                              F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                              G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                              H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                              I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                               
                              Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                               
                              If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                               
                              A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                               
                              We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                               
                              Z161*
                              Z161 --> L623/L147
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                              Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                               
                              That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                               
                              And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                               
                              The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                               
                              Wayne
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                              Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                               
                              Dear Wayne

                              I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                              So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                              Jorgen

                              Sendt fra min iPad

                              Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                              I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                               
                              I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                               
                              I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                               
                              The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                               
                              Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                               
                              Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                               
                              Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                               
                              If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                               
                              Best wishes to all
                              Wayne Roberts
                              kit 214599
                               



                            • Bobby Carpenter
                              Hi Wayne, JOAO Here is some additional information I found at: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2b2/default.aspx?section=news PF3590:Ken Nordtvedt does not
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 15, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Wayne, JOAO

                                Here is some additional information I found at:  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2b2/default.aspx?section=news

                                PF3590: Ken Nordtvedt does not interprete PF3590 as a mutation because he thinks the mis-reading is due to a calibration change between the 12316 ysnps reports from Geno2 and the later 12062 ysnps reports. All haplogroup I customers got the same result (T,C) in the first batch of results, and all those in later batch got the same different result (T,T).

                                Bob Carpenter

                                On 11/15/2013 8:09 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:
                                 

                                Hi Wayne,


                                Great!,So we all agree that PF3590 does not constitute a separate group within Z166+?


                                JOAO



                                ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                
                                Hi Bob,
                                 
                                Ummmm, you are correct. I'm not sure why I missed this but you and Nelson are not the only ones. Seems I missed several of the members Alsop, Collins, McCall, Hausman, Anthony and Eastin.
                                 
                                On that "revelation", it would appear PF3590 is unreliable from Geno 2.0 as it makes no sense given that some members that are CTS6433, Z78+ have it while others do not and that some CTS6433, Z78- have it while others do not and some that are CTS1977 have it and others do not.
                                 
                                Sorry for getting people's hopes up. It was a tricky one for me to detect given the T C and confusing when G G should have been ancestral and A A derived.
                                 
                                Wayne
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:05 AM
                                Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                Hi Wayne,

                                I just re-checked my raw data for PF3590, it reads T  C

                                Thanks  Bob Carpenter

                                On 11/14/2013 1:13 PM, Wayne Roberts wrote:
                                 

                                

                                Joao, Bob and others,
                                 
                                Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only Nelson who is also PF5268+, has different alleles to all others in I-M223 and therefore is the actual positive. It is a bit more confusing in that the reported ancestral state is G, derived state is A. Our I-M223 Geno 2.0 members have T T while Nelson has T C. This is why FTDNA misread the alleles when Geno data was transferred and misreported them as derived (positive).
                                 
                                Wayne
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:34 AM
                                Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                 

                                Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                                There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                                Bob Carpenter

                                On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:

                                 

                                Hi Wayne,


                                I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 


                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590


                                thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?

                                On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!



                                JOAO

                                260237



                                ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                ThanksJorgen for your message.
                                 
                                Atpresent we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                 
                                A)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                B)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                C)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                D)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                E)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                F)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                G)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                H)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                I)M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                 
                                Now,if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                 
                                Ifwe compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                 
                                A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                 
                                Weknow from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                 
                                Z161*
                                Z161--> L623/L147
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                Z161--> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                 
                                That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                 
                                And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                 
                                The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                 
                                Wayne
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                 
                                Dear Wayne

                                I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                Jorgen

                                Sendt fra min iPad

                                Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                 
                                I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                 
                                I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                 
                                The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                 
                                Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                 
                                Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                 
                                Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                 
                                If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                 
                                Best wishes to all
                                Wayne Roberts
                                kit 214599
                                 





                              • lairdkinna
                                Hi Wayne, Are any of the Hap I1 and I2 project admins going to send out a bulk email about BIG Y? Not all testees belong to discussion sites and the clock is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 16, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Hi Wayne,


                                  Are any of the Hap I1 and I2 project admins going to send out a bulk email about BIG Y?  Not all testees belong to discussion sites and the clock is ticking on the presale price for this kit. I know this test is like jumping off a cliff blindfolded, but the testees need to be told the bits and pieces that we do know.


                                  I have three Gillespie kits in I1 L813 that have ordered BIG Y and one of them has also ordered CHROMO2.


                                  I am also talking to the Hap I2 L126 Gillespies to drum up funds to order BIG Y for one 111 marker kit in that group. I have talked to FTDNA and General Funds can be used to order BIG Y (I did this yesterday) - admins just have to telephone FTDNA to make it happen. Wayne I know a call isn't possible for you, but other Hap I admins live in the U.S. and can call.


                                  How many BIG Y tests have been ordered so far for L126 Scots-Isles kits? 


                                  We need several kits in each SNP subgroup to order to take advantage of any new SNPs.


                                  Connie McKenzie



                                  ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                  If people from say large groups like those found in M284 and downstream of that SNP (L1195, L1193, L1194, L126) cannot afford to outlay $495 for Big Y, donations from members to the Project Fund could be directed towards having selected people Big Y tested. It is a thought and Aaron would have to look into if this could be done.
                                   
                                  Wayne
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:08 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                   

                                  Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                                   
                                  At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                   
                                  A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                  B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                  C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                  D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                  E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                  F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                  G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                  H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                  I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                   
                                  Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                   
                                  If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                   
                                  A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                   
                                  We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                   
                                  Z161*
                                  Z161 --> L623/L147
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                  Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                   
                                  That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                   
                                  And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                   
                                  The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                   
                                  Wayne
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                   

                                  Dear Wayne

                                  I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                  So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                  Jorgen

                                  Sendt fra min iPad

                                  Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                  I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                   
                                  I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                   
                                  I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                   
                                  The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                   
                                  Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                   
                                  Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                   
                                  Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                   
                                  If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                   
                                  Best wishes to all
                                  Wayne Roberts
                                  kit 214599
                                   

                                • Randy Wilson
                                  Hi Wayne & other members,    You ve left me in the dust with the DNA technology but I m gaining on it.  I really appreciate what you re doing in this
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 16, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Wayne & other members,
                                       You've left me in the dust with the DNA technology but I'm gaining on it.  I really appreciate what you're doing in this project.  I represent Robert C. Fitzgerald #284368 & am expecting results any day from the Z78 test results that were scheduled to be complete on 11/12/2013.  I'm ready to purchase any additional test or kit that you recommend and was considering the National Geo 2.0 test for Robert C. Fitzg but want your opinion.  
                                       I also have a Brazilian son-in-law who is willing to test for whatever (he's probably Spanish, Italian, African & S.American Indian descent).  I normally order the FTDNA Y67 or Y111 test with FamilyFinder (FF may be of no value with the Brazilain!).  I also have four approx. 80-year-old in-laws grandparents I'm wanting to test (two have Roberts on the maternal side).
                                    Thanks for your advise,
                                    Randy Wilson for R.C.Fitzgerald, #284368


                                    On Saturday, November 16, 2013 3:31 PM, "lairdkinna@..." <lairdkinna@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Hi Wayne,

                                    Are any of the Hap I1 and I2 project admins going to send out a bulk email about BIG Y?  Not all testees belong to discussion sites and the clock is ticking on the presale price for this kit. I know this test is like jumping off a cliff blindfolded, but the testees need to be told the bits and pieces that we do know.

                                    I have three Gillespie kits in I1 L813 that have ordered BIG Y and one of them has also ordered CHROMO2.

                                    I am also talking to the Hap I2 L126 Gillespies to drum up funds to order BIG Y for one 111 marker kit in that group. I have talked to FTDNA and General Funds can be used to order BIG Y (I did this yesterday) - admins just have to telephone FTDNA to make it happen. Wayne I know a call isn't possible for you, but other Hap I admins live in the U.S. and can call.

                                    How many BIG Y tests have been ordered so far for L126 Scots-Isles kits? 

                                    We need several kits in each SNP subgroup to order to take advantage of any new SNPs.

                                    Connie McKenzie


                                    ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                    If people from say large groups like those found in M284 and downstream of that SNP (L1195, L1193, L1194, L126) cannot afford to outlay $495 for Big Y, donations from members to the Project Fund could be directed towards having selected people Big Y tested. It is a thought and Aaron would have to look into if this could be done.
                                     
                                    Wayne
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:08 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                     
                                    Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                                     
                                    At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                     
                                    A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                    B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                    C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                    D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                    E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                    F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                    G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                    H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                    I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                     
                                    Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                     
                                    If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                     
                                    A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                     
                                    We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                     
                                    Z161*
                                    Z161 --> L623/L147
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                    Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                     
                                    That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                     
                                    And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                     
                                    The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                     
                                    Wayne
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                     
                                    Dear Wayne

                                    I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                    So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                    Jorgen

                                    Sendt fra min iPad

                                    Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                    I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                     
                                    I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                     
                                    I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                     
                                    The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                     
                                    Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                     
                                    Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                     
                                    Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                     
                                    If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                     
                                    Best wishes to all
                                    Wayne Roberts
                                    kit 214599
                                     



                                  • Wayne Roberts
                                    Connie, We now have one L126+ person order Big Y (Michael Taggart who was PAGES00052 by Geno 2.0) so this should be interesting if we get more L126+ people do
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 17, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      
                                      Connie,
                                       
                                      We now have one L126+ person order Big Y (Michael Taggart who was PAGES00052 by Geno 2.0) so this should be interesting if we get more L126+ people do Big Y. Plus we have David Godbey from L1194+.
                                       
                                      I will see what I can do to send out a general message to Project members on my return home tomorrow.
                                       
                                      Wayne
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:31 AM
                                      Subject: RE: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                       

                                      Hi Wayne,


                                      Are any of the Hap I1 and I2 project admins going to send out a bulk email about BIG Y?  Not all testees belong to discussion sites and the clock is ticking on the presale price for this kit. I know this test is like jumping off a cliff blindfolded, but the testees need to be told the bits and pieces that we do know.


                                      I have three Gillespie kits in I1 L813 that have ordered BIG Y and one of them has also ordered CHROMO2.


                                      I am also talking to the Hap I2 L126 Gillespies to drum up funds to order BIG Y for one 111 marker kit in that group. I have talked to FTDNA and General Funds can be used to order BIG Y (I did this yesterday) - admins just have to telephone FTDNA to make it happen. Wayne I know a call isn't possible for you, but other Hap I admins live in the U.S. and can call.


                                      How many BIG Y tests have been ordered so far for L126 Scots-Isles kits? 


                                      We need several kits in each SNP subgroup to order to take advantage of any new SNPs.


                                      Connie McKenzie



                                      ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                                      If people from say large groups like those found in M284 and downstream of that SNP (L1195, L1193, L1194, L126) cannot afford to outlay $495 for Big Y, donations from members to the Project Fund could be directed towards having selected people Big Y tested. It is a thought and Aaron would have to look into if this could be done.
                                       
                                      Wayne
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:08 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                       

                                      Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                                       
                                      At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                       
                                      A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                      B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                      C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                      D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                      E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                      F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                      G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                      H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                      I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                       
                                      Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                       
                                      If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                       
                                      A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                       
                                      We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                       
                                      Z161*
                                      Z161 --> L623/L147
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                      Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                       
                                      That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                       
                                      And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                       
                                      The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                       
                                      Wayne
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                       

                                      Dear Wayne

                                      I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                      So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                      Jorgen

                                      Sendt fra min iPad

                                      Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                      I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                       
                                      I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                       
                                      I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                       
                                      The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                       
                                      Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                       
                                      Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                       
                                      Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                       
                                      If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                       
                                      Best wishes to all
                                      Wayne Roberts
                                      kit 214599
                                       

                                    • Leo Embregts
                                      I hope that also people of CTS1977* should be interesting to do the Big Y Thank you beforehand for your cooperation.   Leo Embregts 235511 CTS1977*
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 17, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I hope that also people of CTS1977* should be interesting to do the Big Y
                                        Thank you beforehand for your cooperation.
                                         
                                        Leo Embregts 235511 CTS1977*
                                        From: Wayne Roberts <wayne_r_roberts@...>
                                        To: I-M223 List <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:17 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                        


                                        Hi Bob,
                                         
                                        Ummmm, you are correct. I'm not sure why I missed this but you and Nelson are not the only ones. Seems I missed several of the members Alsop, Collins, McCall, Hausman, Anthony and Eastin.
                                         
                                        On that "revelation", it would appear PF3590 is unreliable from Geno 2.0 as it makes no sense given that some members that are CTS6433, Z78+ have it while others do not and that some CTS6433, Z78- have it while others do not and some that are CTS1977 have it and others do not.
                                         
                                        Sorry for getting people's hopes up. It was a tricky one for me to detect given the T C and confusing when G G should have been ancestral and A A derived.
                                         
                                        Wayne
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:05 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                        Hi Wayne,

                                        I just re-checked my raw data for PF3590, it reads T  C

                                        Thanks  Bob Carpenter

                                        On 11/14/2013 1:13 PM, Wayne Roberts wrote:
                                         
                                        
                                        Joao, Bob and others,
                                         
                                        Unfortunately PF3590 is misreported by FTDNA for those Geno 2.0 transfers. When one checks the Geno raw data files for PF3590, only Nelson who is also PF5268+, has different alleles to all others in I-M223 and therefore is the actual positive. It is a bit more confusing in that the reported ancestral state is G, derived state is A. Our I-M223 Geno 2.0 members have T T while Nelson has T C. This is why FTDNA misread the alleles when Geno data was transferred and misreported them as derived (positive).
                                         
                                        Wayne
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:34 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                         
                                        Hi Wayne and JOAO,

                                        There is another person who is PF3590+ and also L1198+ along with having Z190+ which is my current Terminal Clade.  FTDNA ID # 6060.

                                        Bob Carpenter

                                        On 11/14/2013 8:44 AM, joaobraz_2000@... wrote:
                                         
                                        Hi Wayne,

                                        I'm PF3590+ and got excited by this group 

                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590

                                        thinking that this would be my new terminal SNP. But then I went through the SNP list results at our FTDNA project and saw at least 4 kits which are PF3590+ but L1198-. Doesn't that mean that PF3590 is upstreram from L1198 and not downstream?
                                        On the other hand the only person testing + for PF5268 is also positive for L1198. But unless I missed something, that person is the only person having tested this SNP at all. So How do we know that PF5268 is downstream from L1198? Thanks!


                                        JOAO
                                        260237


                                        ---In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, mailto:wayne_r_roberts@... wrote:

                                        Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                                         
                                        At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                         
                                        A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                        B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                        C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                        D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                        E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                        F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                        G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                        H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                        I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                         
                                        Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                         
                                        If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                         
                                        A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                         
                                        We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                         
                                        Z161*
                                        Z161 --> L623/L147
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                        Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                         
                                        That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                         
                                        And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                         
                                        The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                         
                                        Wayne
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                         
                                        Dear Wayne

                                        I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                        So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                        Jorgen

                                        Sendt fra min iPad

                                        Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                        I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                         
                                        I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                         
                                        I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                         
                                        The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                         
                                        Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                         
                                        Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                         
                                        Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                         
                                        If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                         
                                        Best wishes to all
                                        Wayne Roberts
                                        kit 214599
                                         







                                      • PDR48X2Z22L@...
                                        Ray (#99860) within the M223 project, is in the CTS6433 group (having tested positive for CTS6433 with FTDNA).  Ray has already (previously) upgraded to 111
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 18, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ray (#99860) within the M223 project, is in the CTS6433 group (having tested positive for CTS6433 with FTDNA).  Ray has already (previously) upgraded to 111 markers.
                                           
                                          He just received his results from Geno 2.0.
                                           
                                          Generically, they listed him as I-Z183, which is further upstream than he has already tested with FTDNA.  Talk about anticlimactic ...
                                           
                                          We have not yet uploaded the raw data (Wayne, I sent you a note on this), but we are hoping the detail will reveal more than the "your results" generic cover page indicates.
                                           
                                          Denise


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Wayne Roberts <wayne_r_roberts@...>
                                          To: I-M223 <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 3:08 am
                                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                           
                                          Thanks Jorgen for your message.
                                           
                                          At present we have the following that have ordered the Big Y test:
                                           
                                          A) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                          B) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> P78
                                          C) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> L701 --> L703 --> L704 --> L700
                                          D) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS1977
                                          E) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                          F) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                          G) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                          H) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433
                                          I) M223 --> CTS616 --> CTS10057 --> Z161 --> L801/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78 --> L1198 --> Z166 --> Z190
                                           
                                          Now, if we just had say A and E test, then their results when compared would tell us what SNPs they share in common between M223 and where L701 and Z161 split off from the branch downstream of CTS10057. We will have no way of knowing the significence of the remaining SNPs apart from those already known to us. In other words what SNPs are common to other L701 and Z78 people and what are common to other Z161, L623, L801 and Z183, L1290, CTS6433 and CTS1977 people AND what are private SNPs to A and to E. The amount of individual SNP testing could be incredible and that would be if FTDNA makes them available to order.
                                           
                                          If we compare A, B and C, we will learn what are common SNPs for all L701/L702 people to where P78 and L703 split off. And with A and B, we will learn what other SNPs are common for all P78 people and what are specific to A and to B. It would then be those that other would test for to find where they branched off or if private.
                                           
                                          A similar logic is then applied in comparing D with E, F, G, H and I. In comparing E and F and G and H and in comparing I with E, F, G and H.
                                           
                                          We know from FTDNA testing and Geno 2.0 the following exist:
                                           
                                          Z161*
                                          Z161 --> L623/L147
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> L1290/L1317
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> CTS1958
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> P95
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS1977 --> L1201
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS661/L1272
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> CTS7010
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> PF3292
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190*
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> Z190 --> Z79
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> F3195
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> P195
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF3590
                                          Z161 --> L801/Z76/Z183 --> CTS6433 --> Z78/Z171 --> L1198/Z185 --> Z166/Z180/Z187 --> PF5268
                                           
                                          That is a lot to try and sort out if we only had one person that was CTS6433+ test.
                                           
                                          And even with the above nine people testing for the Big Y, they will not tell us anything about the people in M223*, L1228*, CTS616*, L1229* or M284* sectors, groups and clades.
                                           
                                          The idea of ordering now and before the 1st December is to save $200 per order on the Big Y test rather than wait for the first results to come back in early 2014, then wait for FTDNA to list SNPs for individual ordering, then wait for individual SNPs results to come back for people and hope they produce splits in groups. It is better to have two or a few from each sector especially big sectors order now and save $200 than have to have people test in 2014 at full price to achieve the desired results.
                                           
                                          Wayne
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] How, when, where and Y to next

                                           
                                          Dear Wayne

                                          I am not sure I understand your argument why we need more than one from each sector to test BigY. In my opinion we need one from each sector at a time. Doing BigY one will (hopefully) reveal new SNPs. The new SNPs could either be unidentified ancestral SNPs. In that case we will see that some from other sectors have the same SNP proving it is ancestral. In case a new SNP is identified which is not found in neighborgh subjects then it is important that other subjects in the same sector test for that SNP to indicate the place for that SNP.  

                                          So I think the most important point is that the group as a whole test important SNPs identified. 

                                          Jorgen

                                          Sendt fra min iPad

                                          Den 14/11/2013 kl. 05.21 skrev "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...>:

                                          I have seen a lot of discussion on other lists and Facebook groups about this new Big Y test at FTDNA, about the Y sequencing with Full Genomes, about the next Geno 2.1 or 3.0 and the need for people to find their "terminal" or "private/family" SNPs or upgrade STR markers to compare haplotypes, time to most recent common ancestor, etc.
                                           
                                          I know it can all be a bit confusing especially to those that are new to DNA testing. There are many reasons people have DNA tested or just done the Y-DNA on themself or a male family member. Unfortunately and realisticly, it does not stop with just one test if one wants to find out about their own or family's ancestry through DNA. I read on a Facebook group where one guy had just ordered the Big Y test. He had previously tested to 111 markers, done the Walk Through the Y test, done Geno 2.0, ordered the Full Genomes test and would test again if they released a new version of the Geneographic Project. He was asked why he wasted his money duplicating tests with different companies. His response was it was his hobby and like any other hobby, he spent his money on this one to know and discover new things, accumilate information and results.
                                           
                                          I can certainly appreciate his stand, I am probably the same. We sometimes have to take gambles with the tests on offer. Try this SNP test or that one, test to 111 markers to see or find where our recent or deep ancestral matches might be. I did this with the WTY test and it did not pay off for me or for my Roots sector in the I-M223 tree. I now await the results for Y sequencing with Full Genomes but unless others from Haplogroup I-M223 especially Roots sector also test there may be no one to compare my results with (except a few from the 1000 Genomes Study used as a reference).
                                           
                                          The same will apply to the Big Y test regardless of how one feels about it. It will not be as useful if only one person from any sector tests for it because there is no others to compare the SNPs with and work out what are relevant to a sector, to a family line or to an individual. We know from the 1000 Genomes Project and to a limited degree Geno 2.0, that there are many others SNPs to be identified for the various sectors/branches of I-M223. One hopes these will be included in the new Big Y test or found when they look for new SNPs.
                                           
                                          Ideally we need two or three people to Big Y test from each sector/branch of I-M223, especially the large generic groups to break these groups down. I am quite surprise that with the very large Isles M284/L1193/L126 groups, that there has not been any Big Y orders as yet. I sincerely hope we will see a few before the discount deadline of the 1st December comes around.
                                           
                                          Likewise with the Roots L1129/L1230/Z2054/L812 groups, I would like to see a few orders from here too. If at least one person from Roots R9-12 group orders the Big Y test before December 1st, I will order Big Y for one of my Roberts relatives in this group. At least then we will be able to compare SNP.
                                           
                                          Some Haplogroups already have 30 odd members that have ordered the Big Y test. The later one places an order the longer the test time will be. The same applies to the STR marker upgrade special offer sale. Leaving an order to December or just before the December 31st deadline will see lenghtly delays for results.
                                           
                                          If you can not afford the big tests such as upgrading to 111 markers, the Big Y, Chrome2 or the Full Genomes, at least please consider a moderate financial outlay and upgrade to your next marker level or test for a recommended SNP or single STR marker. We are happy to advise what is recommended for you if you are not sure, just message here. Don't wildly go and order what ever FTDNA offers for M223+, check with us first.
                                           
                                          Best wishes to all
                                          Wayne Roberts
                                          kit 214599
                                           

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