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Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

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  • Scott E. Stewart
    Wayne, I ll keep this in mind. Dr. Krahn was going to add PF6899 to the FTDNA order list for us and now he s moved on to greener pastures, so I m uncertain who
    Message 1 of 97 , Sep 1, 2013
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      Wayne, I'll keep this in mind.  Dr. Krahn was going to add PF6899 to the FTDNA order list for us and now he's moved on to greener pastures, so I'm uncertain who to check with at FTDNA to make sure that it's being done.  Please let us know who has taken this over at FTDNA or if I should call them to find out and check on the status of PF6899?  Thanks, Scott
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Aug 31, 2013 7:17 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

      Scott and friends, You need to make a request to Aaron if you feel someone should be moved out of Cont3a or moved from one group to another. I am responsible for assigning grouping to those new and ungrouped members, which is why you have seen some movement into P78 but no movement out or about from me.
      I have also been inviting potential Cont3a members to join our Project as well as recommending SNP tests for those untested. Several have taken up these offers.
      As for funding for tests, members should be first encouraged to order their test, if there is some difficulty, then your Project fund donations could assist. I have paid for a few myself with permission from the kit owner or controller. You will have to ask Aaron how your donations are holding up. I have not been keeping track of what has been spent on tests and from what source.
      Wayne
      ------------------------------------------
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Scott E. Stewart
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 3:47 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3




      Wayne, Per your counsel below, I compared Cameron (268462) to Tanner, McMillan, and McPhee and he appears to be a better match for them, so please let me know if we can ask him to test Z161 or let me know if you have a better idea. I hope that we don't have that Rogers issue where he turns out null for Z161. Also, I assume that we still haven't heard back from Feller (116271) on PF6896, PF6899, and PF6902. Tate and Morgan look too much like Dawes. Please let me know if we can move forward with asking Krahn (72901) to test L703, PF6896, PF6899, and PF6902? Then it appears that our list for requesting P78 is as follows:

      1) Fowler (288279). We're both agreed P78 is the best first step.

      2) Williams (156706). We're both agreed P78 is the best first step.

      3) Moreton (90147). We're both agreed P78 is the best first step.

      4) Bartlett (237946). Dr. Nordtvedt says P78 kissed by recLOH.

      5) Anderson (289232). Dr. Nordtvedt says P78 kissed by recLOH.

      6) Nelson (296812). I'm assuming that you concur because you moved him up to P78.

      7) Guber (141252). I'm assuming that you concur because you moved Fischbach and Loew up to P78.

      8) Fanoy (N87122). Looks like Bronner (159305) but kissed by recLOH like Truax (95511).

      9) Ungureanu (47398). Looks like Ide (283436).

      10) Little (60567). Little is difficult to read because he's been double kissed by recLOH. Unless you're doing L1229 for Little, I'd like to try P78. If you're doing L1229 for Little, I'd like to substitute Wheat (222214), who looks very much like Kuhn (144750).

      I hope that you ask the non-match Little (101088) to join the Project. As soon as we receive consents from a group of 5, we can ask Aaron to put in for the P78 tests and keep on doing groups of 5 until we've confirmed terminal SNPs for everyone in the L701 Sector. I had 15 tests in the Project Fund because we were going to test 5 people for PF6896, PF6899, and PF6902 and then we tested Gonzalez for P78 and L1228 and Watkins for L704 and L1226, so I believe that I have 11 tests left in the Project Fund. Please don't hesitate to let me know any comments or concerns. Thank you very much for all of your help with this, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Aug 30, 2013 11:43 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

      Scott,

      PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 update.

      Permission to test for PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 was received from Frank Dawes Kit 95786. This was forwarded to you and Aaron with request to order the two SNPs currently available on FTDNA order list. A check shows they have been ordered yet.

      No word back from Feller kit 116271. However he has not tested for L699, L703 or L704 and I would therefore rule him out unless L703 and L704 were also tested.

      Of the members in Cont3a - XX group, only Dawes, Tate and Morgan kit 24276 have tested for L699 and L703 with Dawes also testing L704-. It is a rather sad state of affairs that all of the others (excusing the other three Morgans) are not confirmed L699+ and/or L703+ and L704-. They should be encouraged to test for L703 at least.

      Dawes is really the only reliable option to test for PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 as he is known L699+, L703+ and L704-. Tate or Morgan are the next best with L699+ and L703+.

      Testing in Cont3a - XX1 (L704 group) was put on hold until we had confirmation of results for one or more from Cont3a - XX group.

      L701, L702 Sector Diversity and Terminal SNPs

      It is a little frustrating looking for people to test new SNPs when many have not tested for their assigned group's defining SNP/s.

      If someone is assigned to a P78+ group they should test for P78 to confirm their assignment as correct. Same for L699+, L703+ group with either SNP to be tested and same for L704 + group. If someone has ambiguious STR markers and no SNPs tested or just has L701+ or L702+ they should go into a Cont3a - UNKNOWN group until such time the relevant SNPs are confirmed or not.

      Regarding the names you listed.

      Cameron - he just joined and had been specially invited to join the I-M223 Project as he was one of the matches to Tanner, McMillan and McPhee. I do not believe he belongs in Cont3a. He could be tested for L701 or L702 but Z161 would be more appropiate as first off.

      Little - has one other Little match that has tested 37 markers. He has matches to Graham. We may get a better haplogroup prediction on the 37 marker Little. May not be good one for P78.

      60567 Little I2b1
      12408 Phillip Anderson Little I2b1

      60567 Little 14 24 16 11 15 16 11 13 11 13 12 29 16 8 8 11 11 24 14 20 28 15 15 16 16
      12408 Little 15 24 17 11 15 16 11 13 11 13 12 29 16 8 8 11 11 24 14 20 28 15 15 16 16 11 11 19 21 14 14 18 17 38 38 11 11


      This other non-match Little looks interesting also.
      101088 Little I2b1
      101088 Little 15 23 15 10 15 15 11 13 11 14 12 32


      Hall - Hall is part of the following "family" in the Hall Project. Has an interesting match to Yeates in L704+ so perhaps L704 rather P78 might be appropiate. I have not looked at the STR markers yet. It takes forever just checking each person, their SNPs and matches.

      Family 023 I2b
      MIN 14 24 15 10 15-16 11 13 11 13 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 17 18 36-36 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 13 27 21 11 13 12 14 11 11 12 11 12 31 10 13 22 14 11 21 12
      MAX 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 31 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 18 18 36-37 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 13 27 21 11 13 12 14 11 11 12 11 12 31 10 13 22 14 11 21 12
      MODE 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 13 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 17 18 36-36 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 13 27 21 11 13 12 14 11 11 12 11 12 31 10 13 22 14 11 21 12
      160241 Hall James Madison Hall 1812-1884,Botetourt County, VA I2b1 14 24 15 10 15-16 11 13 11 13 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 18 18 36-36 12 10
      9192 Hall William Hall ca. 1702 IRELAND to Virginia USA I2b1 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 13 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16
      132537 Hall John Fryer Hall c1768 Virginia USA I2b1 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 13 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 17 18 36-36 12 10
      B1610 Yeates Richard Hall Yeates 1797 - 1870 Gloucs ENG I2b1 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 31 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 17 18 36-36 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 13 27 21 11 13 12 14 11 11 12 11 12 31 10 13 22 14 11 21 12
      B2673 Hall James A. Hall, b.1809 Maryland USA and d.1866 I2b1 14 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 31 16 8-9 11 11 25 14 19 26 14-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 15 17 18 36-37 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 13 27 21 11 13 12 14 11 11 12 11 22 14 12



      Fowler - He has good matches to Mullennex/Mullinax/Molineux family that are P78+ also an Andrews P78+, Moreton 90147 and a Gammage. He would be good to test for P78.

      Williams - Also has matches to Moreton, Mullennex and Andrews so should be good for P78.

      Long - Has matches with two other Long men but not Gilles Long, a West as well as with Keyes L704+ so may be better to test for L704.

      Graham - matches with Little as well as Pedersen and with Mole, Speer, Jordan in Roots, Hendricks, Kohlmann and Carswell. May not be a good one for P78.

      Will look at the others in the morning, it has got too late now.

      Wayne


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Scott E. Stewart
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 10:04 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3




      Wayne, Thanks for your update. It sounds like we've moved as far forward as we can for now with L704, L1226, L484, L1443, L1228, and L700. Please let us know the status of PF6896 and PF6902? I want us to move forward with your plan to confirm terminal SNPs in and increase the diversity of the L701 Sector. Please let me know your thoughts on requesting the following people to test P78? Thanks, Scott

      1) Cameron (268462),

      2) Little (60567),

      3) Hall (9192),

      4) Fowler (288279),

      5) Yaccov Fishbach (78235),

      6) Loew (N60214),

      7) Graham (N31159),

      8) Williams (N56553),

      9) Nelson (296812), and

      10) Long (155248).

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Aug 29, 2013 5:58 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

      Hello Giles, nice to hear from you.

      We may ask for you to test for L1443 in the near future. I would like to see the results first for Alshammari, Weliver and Ballough. Please keep an eye on the list here for further details.

      Scott, we now have three Watkins members in Cont3 including the N114142 who was L700+ with Geno 2.0. L704 and L1226 has been ordered for him. There is no immediate need to test the other two for L700 as they are all from same paternal line as far as I know. The Perry clan and Wilson are known L700-. Once we have the Watkins results for L704, Yeates and Keyes probably should test for L700 and Yeates has not tested L1226.

      As for ambiguous members of the two P78 groups, a couple have ordered P78 and a couple have ordered L1228. We should know in a month or two just which Sector (L701/L702 or L1228) they actually belong to. Other members in both P78 groups and in L699/L703 group that have not tested for their relevant defining SNP, should be encouraged to do so. If new SNPs need to be tested for, we need to know that a member is indeed positive for his group's defining SNP.

      Wayne

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Gilles Long
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 6:10 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3



      I am already P78+ and L484+. Helpfull to test for L1443?

      Gilles Long (48610)

      " Scott E. Stewart" a écrit :




      Wayne, Thank you for acting as the Ambassador of the I-M223 Project and inviting the Watkinses to join. I've updated our L701 Sector list and I'm re-submitting it for your consideration:
      1) PF6896 & PF6902. FTDNA still doesn't have PF6899 up. My understanding is that Dawes (95786) is moving forward with PF6896 and PF6902, but I assume that we're waiting for PF6899 to put him in for the tests? If we haven’t heard from Feller (116271), please let me know if you believe that we should ask Fabian (71049)?
      2) L704 & L1226. Watkins (N114142) moved forward with L704 and L1126.
      3) L484 and L1443. We're still waiting on L1443 results for Alshammari (252836), Weliver (258213), and Ballough (103295). Please let us know if you’re ready to declare L1443 phyloequivalent with P78? If not, I’d like to move forward with asking Chabanian to test L484 and L1443 and asking Tony Stein (54860) to test L1443.
      4) L1228. Gonzalez (155821) moved forward with L1228 testing. I don’t know if you're waiting for his results before asking for L1228 tests for Pike (194314), Costa (220257), and Munoz (247485). My understanding is that Costa (220257) is the most ambiguous, so perhaps we want to move forward with asking him to test L1228?

      5) L700. Please move forward with asking Watkins (237140) or Watkins (296079) to test L700.
      Five projects are as many as I can juggle at one time. Please let me know if Rogers (145309) looks more like L701 Sector or more like X139 like Webb (32394), Marsden (286958), or Webb (247443) to you? Thanks, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: " Scott E. Stewart"
      Sent: Aug 23, 2013 11:07 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

      Wayne, It looks like we cleaned up P78+ Cont3a/Group 1, L703+ Cont3a-XX, and L704+ Cont3a-XX1 quite a bit this week. P78+ Cont3a/Group 2 looks more difficult and I was hoping that we could work on cleaning it up next week. I’m respectfully submitting my testing suggestions for your consideration and comments:

      1) PF6896 & PF6902. My understanding is that Dawes (95786) is moving forward with PF6896 and PF6902, but we haven’t heard from Feller (116271). Please let me know if you believe that we should ask Fabian (71049)?

      2) L704 & L1226. My understanding is that Watkins (N114142) is moving forward with L704 and L1126. I haven’t heard if you’ve concluded L700+ was a Geno 2.0 error or if there are more Watkins on their way?

      3) L484 and L1443. I’d like to move forward with Haakon’s advice to ask Chabanian to test L484 and L1443. Tony Stein (54860) already has tested L484+, but I’d like to ask him to test L1443. Please let us know if you’re ready to declare L1443 phyloequivalent with P78 or if you’d like to ask others for L1443?

      4) L1228. I know that Gonzalez (155821) moved forward with L1228 testing and didn’t know if you were waiting for his results for Pike (194314), Costa (220257), and Munoz (247485). My understanding is that Costa (220257) is the most ambiguous, so perhaps we want to move forward with asking him to test L1228?

      Please let me know your thoughts? Thanks, Scott
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Aug 21, 2013 5:37 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

      I should also add that I do check to see whom the person matches with and if they are a member of a surname project to see if there are others of the same family with more markers tested to get a better picture of what grouping someone should be assigned to in the I-M223 Project.

      Gonzalez had no matches at all. He was already in the Cont3a group and seemed like an outlier with some marker similarities. I guess the SNP tests will tell if he is L1228 or P78.

      Wayne

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3




      I try and use both as a guide for new members. It is difficult when one finds a person's markers do not seem to fit possible clades eg they are an outlier.

      Of course the majority of members' kit numbers with their STR markers were assigned to a group or clade before I became involved, before Aaron became involved. It takes a lot of skill, time and good eyes to check through every member to see if their assignment fits in with the modality for that grouping and to check what SNPs they have tested if any at all.

      If members see others they believe do not belong in a particular grouping, it would be helpful if they notified us via this list or privately. I have been working through trying to get members without SNPs or a relative that has, to at least test one SNP to confirm their placement. Where someone cannot afford a test I have tried to cover the cost myself with their knowledge/permission.

      Wayne

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: hstyri
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:49 PM
      Subject: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3





      I would recommend that Ken Nordtvedt's M223+ Modalities are used rather than the out of date predictor tool. In this case DYS437=15 is a strong indicator that we're dealing with L1228 rather than P78, but there are exceptions. However, looking at the other modals makes the L1228 placement more likely.

      Regards,
      H.Styri















    • Wayne Roberts
      Scott, The order has been placed for PF6899. Thank-you for your donation to cover this cost and thanks to Franklin Dawes for being out tester again. Wayne ...
      Message 97 of 97 , Jan 14, 2014
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        Scott,
         
        The order has been placed for PF6899.
         
        Thank-you for your donation to cover this cost and thanks to Franklin Dawes for being out tester again.
         
        Wayne
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:32 AM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

         

        Wayne, That sounds good.  I contributed the $39 to the Project Fund, so please order PF6899 for Dawes.  Thanks for your help, Scott

        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
        Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 9:47 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

        Scott, I think we could order PF6899 for Dawes but leave it at that for now until we see what comes back with Big Y tests.

        What I expect we will find for Cont3 branches at present (pre-Big Y) are:

        L701, L702, PF6894, PF6897 --> P78, L484, L1143

        L701, L702, PF6894, PF6897 --> L699, L703, PF6896, PF6899, PF6902

        L701, L702, PF6894, PF6897 --> L699, L703, PF6896, PF6899, PF6902 --> L704

        L701, L702, PF6894, PF6897 --> L699, L703, PF6896, PF6899, PF6902 --> L704 --> L700

        L701, L702, PF6894, PF6897 --> L699, L703, PF6896, PF6899, PF6902 --> L704 --> L1126

        But one could be surprised. And someones somewhere are also L705/S465, L706 and L707 though they may not all be in Cont3.

        Wayne

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:52 AM

        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

         

        Wayne, Please confirm that we can move forward with requesting PF6899 for Dawes 95786 per your email below and I’ll contribute the $39 to the Project Fund?  Thanks, Scott

        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
        Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:43 AM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: L1443 in Cont3

        Scott,

        PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 update.

        Permission to test for PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 was received from Dawes Kit 95786….

        No word back from Feller kit 116271. However he has not tested for L699, L703 or L704 and I would therefore rule him out unless L703 and L704 were also tested.

        Of the members in Cont3a - XX group, only Dawes, Tate and Morgan kit 24276 have tested for L699 and L703 with Dawes also testing L704-. It is a rather sad state of affairs that all of the others (excusing the other three Morgans) are not confirmed L699+ and/or L703+ and L704-. They should be encouraged to test for L703 at least.

        Dawes is really the only reliable option to test for PF6896, PF6899 and PF6902 as he is known L699+, L703+ and L704-. Tate or Morgan are the next best with L699+ and L703+.

        Testing in Cont3a - XX1 (L704 group) was put on hold until we had confirmation of results for one or more from Cont3a - XX group.

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