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Re: [I-M223] Re: New SNP found in Geno 2.0 for Isles Scots member

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  • Wayne Roberts
    It is good to have you with us Steve. It is not so much about negativity and more about value for the money people outlay. The three main companies, FTDNA,
    Message 1 of 50 , Aug 18, 2013
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      It is good to have you with us Steve.
      It is not so much about negativity and more about value for the money people outlay.
      The three main companies, FTDNA, 23andMe and Ancestry offer different products and services. They use outdated haplogroup classifications and some do not keep up with the changing face of the various haplogroups that have resulted through studies like the 1000 Genomes and test for the new SNPs that define various branches of those haplogroups. At least FTDNA does offer new SNPs that can be ordered individually but the majority of customers have no idea of what to test for unless they join their respective Haplogroup Project or an active Surname Project. In the case for I-M223, the old Deep Clade test would test for P95, P78 and M379 and if you are lucky M284 or L126. If you did not have one of those derived, you simply remained I2b1 or M223+ despite other branch defining SNPs such as Z161, L1229, L701 being known for two or more years now and M379 confined to just one person. People waste their money on un-necessary SNPs and then lose interest. FTDNA now directs customers to Geno 2.0 for deep clade testing.
      National Geographic's Geno 2.0 Project has been a blessing for some. It tests for around 12,000 Y-DNA SNPs. These SNPs were selected from the various studies, projects, archeological discoveries and company finds. Geno 2.0 is suppose to have a SNP haplogroup tree and other information but it is still not there. Some key SNPs for M223+ sector such as L1229, L1228, M284 are not included in Geno 2.0. Geno 2.0 results can be confusing. The mtDNA data cannot be transferred to FTDNA. You are given a haplogroup prediction only. Y-DNA SNPs can be transferred but if you have only tested with Geno 2.0, you will still have to order STR marker tests with FTDNA as well as mtDNA tests to be matched and to be members of some projects. The autosomal DNA data is not transferred to FTDNA so you will have to order Family Finder tests. All this is not made clear to the Geno 2.0 only customer.
      As I said they can be great for some people and a failure and costly for others. The lack of information is a key flaw on the part of most if not all of the companies.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:22 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Re: New SNP found in Geno 2.0 for Isles Scots member


      Very interesting discussions today,I can see that the people interested in genealogy are very knowledgeable in not only science, but history too! With my father being adopted I feel as though I learn something new about my own families past in every Isles Scots  letter. I guess this kind of science draws the interest of a very specific type of person, and happy I became part of it. One question though, why so much negative talk about Geno 2, and ftdna, I thought we must have all tested through the same companies, are there some others that are better, or more trusted? Thanks Steve

      From: stephenctimmis <stephen@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 3:01:01 PM
      Subject: [I-M223] Re: New SNP found in Geno 2.0 for Isles Scots member

      hi Dora,

      You seem very certain that the isles Scots are originally from Galloway, or, at least, it is difficult to see any other conclusion from what you seem to be saying. How can you be sure of a Galloway origin. If you look at the project Map and look at Isles Scots, you will see the vast majority of them are in Ireland. It could be that the origin of M284 and L126 is in Ireland. I can see no definite proof that is is actually Scottish in Origin.

      Two thirds did not actively support the American Revolution because they were not rich enough to own slaves, were not dependent on slaves for their livlihood, and were not involved in the Slave Trade. The Boston Tea Party was a direct result of the Somerset v Stewart case in English Law (1772). A man refused to reboard a ship as a slave worker, having been a slave on his owner's ship from Boston to Liverpool. The presiding english judge, lord mansfield, summed up in this way:

      "The state of slavery is of such a nature that it is incapable of being introduced on any reasons, moral or political, but only by positive law, which preserves its force long after the reasons, occasions, and time itself from whence it was created, is erased from memory. It is so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law. Whatever inconveniences, therefore, may follow from the decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England; and therefore the black must be discharged."

      Consequently the ship and slave owner got mad, sailed home to Boston minus his property, agitated when he got back to Boston and, BINGO! Tea Party.

      The American Constitution was framed by White, Male landed Gentry, mainly slave owners, who wanted militia's to put down slaves revolts, and wanted States Rights to maintain Slavery in the face of the opposition of the people of Anti Slave States, such as Pennsylvania. The French Sided with the Revolutionaries because they saw any thing that opposed their greatest rival, Britain, as a bonus, therefore Lafayette was sent to give a French backbone to the American forces. The French committed so much to the Americans that it broke the French bank and led to the Estates Generale and the French Revolution.

      Yes, I am saying that the American Revolution was a War to maintain slavery in the face of increased British Parliamentary opposition. As it turned out they need not have panicked too much. The Slave Trade was finally abolished in 1807, and the use of Slaves on Colonial Territories was finally outlaweed in 1837.

      Before people get mad at what i have written, let this be known. I am British and I object to the posting of American Mythology as though it were fact. Dora understood my joke about, "Strongbow saving Ireland", when in fact he was a Norman pig that stole rulership from the Irish Pigs that ran it before. They all killed all their subjects to maintain themselves in power. Therefore I am sure Dora will understand my objections to her assumptions about the nature of the American Revolution.

      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
      > I’m sorry, thank you Wayne, for your good research. Finding out where Geno 2.0 SNPs come from is not easy. You told us where this one comes from. I don’t know if these were Y Sequences or what; I’ll have to look into it, but it does have more credibility than it randomely turned up in a Geno 2 test.
      > I’m wondering about its presence in Sardinia though. Many Scots migrated to Europe, so you’d expect them not in Scotland more often, but that was northern and eastern Europe. And the Isles-Scottish haplotype really isn’t distributed as if it had much spread before people from Galloway migrated beginning the 16th century, to Ireland.
      > This wouldn’t be the first time I had reason to really wonder about the Isles-Scottish haplotype. My brother in law’s McKinstrys originated on or near the Cree River in the 1400’s. At 67 markers matches are up to 5-6 off within the surname, and they all have distinctive markers like 15-17 at DYS 385. (Usually that’s 15-16). Just a little more distant than that and all the matches have other surnames, though they all are surnames common in that part of Galloway (though they pretty much trace to 19th century Glasgow). McNeight, McArtor, for two of them. I think Stewart or Gordon might even be among them. Both the latter families would have been McKinstry landlords at various points in time. Now, the thing about these McKinstrys, is, there are land records and probate records of them â€" showing typical holdings of several fields, to be sure, but no records should exist, and other records say they were for instance, a member of a jury, and a bailie. NOT your average Joe Blows. They usually came to the U.S. as “better sort†of the Scotch-Irish; they usually could buy land, sometimes a lot of it, they often brought books, they were community leaders, their children rose quickly in the ranks of society, one of the emigrants was a minister who had studied in Edinburgh, even when poor they were soon successful and their grandchildren served in state legislatures, etc. They universally carried stories of ancestors forced to leave Scotland as religious dissidents, though I can find nothing to support that notion; no record that they ever WERE religious dissidents, forced to leave Scotland, nothing.
      > I’m wondering if the Isles-Scottish haplotype is a socioeconomic status marker as well as a geographical marker. Massive numbers of Scots went to eastern and northern Europe in medieval times through the 18th century, specifically because they were starving to death; there were a minimum of 50,000 people in this mass migration in its later stages alone, and it is 2nd only to the Scotch-Irish migration in historical size and ability to reshape genetic distribution, within modern times. Yet the Isles-Scottish haplotype didn’t spread with it. Did the middle class sort of Presbyterianism perhaps steer it toward Ireland?
      > The Isles-Scottish haplotype was always strange; it was born in the only region of southern Scotland that was isolated and quiet at the time of its birth in the 3rd century, and it stayed put until the 16th century, then it migrated in just one direction. It’s common in the U.S. again on account of a certain amount of selection that drove certain of the Scotch-Irish to the U.S. Large numbers of descendants of the Scottish settlers did stay in Ireland.
      > My father also belongs to a 3rd century Y DNA cluster. However, his cluster contains a couple of dozen families and not tens of thousands. The Isles-Scottish haplotype must have experienced a helluva of a founder effect; something beyond living in a quiet backwater in the 3rd century gave it an advantage.
      > The people left behind in Scotland after the Scotch-Irish migration were a tamer sort, very similar to modern Britons in temperament, placidity, stuffiness, snobbiness, and mind your manners, thank you. They had thought the Covenanters were nothing but trouble makers, making trouble where it didn’t need to be made. While the leading reason for emigration to Ireland was some version on the theme of starvation, this too suggests that something was different about many of the people who left.
      > One imagines maybe they were just inclined to do something about it when something is drastically wrong, whatever any individual emigrant perceived that to be, and they took all the genes for internal skeleton and having heads with them, but usually specific reasons why people participate in a mass migration are more specific and more selective than that. It has often seemed to be that the ones who left managed to take the population’s entire stock of genes for having a head and a spine with them, and some genetic studies have suggested valid ways that could happen. The serotonin transporter gene, for instance, is a major determinant of whether people think the glass is half empty or half full. Some dopamine enzymes and receptors, as well as all genes for bipolar disorder, help determine who wants to be an Evangelical Christian, and who is drawn to what is different.
      > I undertook graduate studies in sociology, but did not finish, but while there I focused my attention on why people who face real problems, such as discrimination, so often don’t themselves think that something is in need of changing. What is WRONG with these people. How many people here know that two thirds of the colonial American population opposed the Revolutionary War. Most women of the 1970’s didn’t think women as a group faced any problems. Most Blacks of the Civil Rights era didn’t think Black people had any problems except White troublemakers from the North.
      > If we’re starving, well, you know, born to til the soil, and you shall til the soil until you die, and I’ll obey my laird, thank you very much! If someone in Scottish lowlands was dying of contagious disease, all of his neighbors would crowd into his filthy dirt-floored hovel, standing among the cows and the pigs, to bid him farewell â€" and who caught disease was strictly God’s worry. Small wonder that predestination caught on among these people. Now, who here thinks that McKinstrys and others of the Isles-Scottish haplotype somehow selectively got left OUT of that entire miserable picture.
      > Atleast some of these McKinstrys lived on land where the laird was a personal friend of Whatshisname the leader of the Scottish Reformation, and fond of holding services in the middle of the woods where he would read from I think they Wycliffe Bible. The Scottish Reformation was led by the upper eschelons of society, such as they existed in Scotland â€" the lower ranks of the aristocracy, the middle class such as it was, evidently some of the middle and lower ranking lairds. There wasn’t much of a middle class in Scotland, and maybe the term only applies in a loose way, but it managed to lead and direct the Scottish Reformation.
      > From: Dora Smith
      > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 6:56 AM
      > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [I-M223] New SNP found in Geno 2.0 for Isles Scots member
      > Sorry, it would mean more to me if I knew where those Geno 2.0 SNPs even CAME from. If these are SNPs that have been found somewhere before, more often than not by accident, than it’s likely accidental here, too, and further testing won’t find others who have it, or won’t find many others who have it. I’m afraid I’m not who is going to initially order it for my father in law. Anyhow, I need to hang onto his sample for when there is a more meaningful finding.
      > Dora
      > From: Wayne Roberts
      > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:32 PM
      > To: I-M223 List
      > Subject: [I-M223] New SNP found in Geno 2.0 for Isles Scots member
      > A new SNP has been found in the Geno 2.0 results for Isles Scots member Kit B1563.
      > The new SNP is PF1583 with mutation C to T verified by comparing the raw data with those of other members that have done Geno 2.0 and sent their raw data through.
      > PF1583 comes from the Sardinian Y Genome Study and was found in sample NA18507. It is not yet available in the FTDNA SNP order list.
      > Regards
      > Wayne

    • paleti20
      Wayne, I may be understand now. The database seems only to compare snps, when two names have listed the same snp in the database. Perhaps, names without item
      Message 50 of 50 , Jul 3, 2014
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        Wayne, I may be understand now.

        The database seems only to compare snps, when two names have listed the same snp in the database.

        Perhaps, names without item for snp F184, will be not compared with others who have this snp in the database.

        I think, that is the reason why Diaz and McDonald match together some names like Arvin etc. but between them is listed as non-matching.

        In this case only the non-matching results are reliable:

        McDonald <> Diaz, Wilkerson
        Diaz <> McDonald, McMillion

        Are McDonald F184 –A
        and Wilkerson F184 +C (derived)?

        I do not know why, but sometimes, I think the ..... does not list a snp or some snps on the tree are wrong placed for earning more. 

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