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RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

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  • Peter
    Bill You can normally generate a Gedcom file from the software in which you record your family details; in my case I use Family Tree Maker. Regards Peter This
    Message 1 of 41 , Aug 4, 2013
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      Bill

       

      You can normally generate a Gedcom file from the software in which you record your family details; in my case I use Family Tree Maker.

       

      Regards

       

      Peter

       

       

      This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
      It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


      If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

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      This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

       

      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
      Sent: 04 August 2013 6:21 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: William Ballough
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

       

      Wayne, I got as far as the upload screen, but it requires that I upload a GEDCOM file from my computer. How do I generate or find such file?

      (My match is an error, as I entered my data under my great grandfather’s name.) I do have about 30 paternal cousins in the US., however, my focus is Uzhgorad, Ukraine (Formerly Ungvar, Hungary.).  

      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:13 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

       

      

      Bill,

       

      If one opens their account and selects "Matches" or Advanced Matches" from the drop down menu for Y-DNA on the menu bar along top of their page, any matches they have will be displayed. I know you only have one match but for others with several matches, they can click on the match's name and it will display their details including a email address.

       

      If you also look at the bottom of the page displaying any matches, you will see the feature to upload your Y-DNA STR markers to Y-Search. You should do this if you have not already. Y-Search, although a feature of FTDNA, is open to others that have tested with say, Ancestry. You can search for matches on Y-Search also.

       

      Best of luck everyone.

       

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 11:29 PM

      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

       

      Yes, but how? I have no contact with anyone outside the project.  Any ideas about  how to establish outside contacts?

      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 9:26 PM
      To:
      I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

      

      I think all I-L701/702 and thus I-P78 should be inviting any Y-DNA matches not already members of the I-M223 Project to join. The more haplotypes we have in the various subgroups the better it is to see clade trends and find unique markers.

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 1:14 PM

      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

      I think the Hungarian population  is about 4 % P-78. There is no breakdown as to geography. I wonder if it is concentrated in the northern Carpathians, rather than the Danube basin?

      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
      Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:13 PM
      To:
      I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

       

      Bill, Thanks for sharing in your email below regarding your Hungarian ancestor named Red with red hair.  I found the attached article on the origin of red hair linked to below to be informative:

      http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

      As we've discussed, our P78 ancestor appears to have been born around the area of the modern Czech Republic and Slovakia around 4300 bp, which I understand generally would be around 2,000 B.C. (rounded for purposes of streamlining discussion), and it appears that the ancestors of P78 Group 1 migrated down the Danube basin to the Danube Delta at the Black Sea, which would have been the area of Thrace:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace

      and I'd note that Thracians were known for having red hair, blue eyes, and a fair complexion and that "Rufus" was a common Thracian name meaning "redhead" per the link below:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

      It looks like some of the modern people around the area with a high concentration of P78, relative to P78 and assuming that most of their M223 is P78, include the Moldovan Gagauz at 5.1%:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people

      and the Mordvins in the northeasterly migration into Russia at 4.8% P78, which again is relatively high for P78 and assumes that most of the M223 present is P78:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins

      and that pale complexions, light eyes, and black, auburn, and red hair appears to be typical of them.

      I'd note that hair color genes are inherited from alleles that aren't on the Y chromosome.  Ballough (Kit #N54723, Lajos Balogh, b. c. 1810, d. c. 1890, Ukraine) appears to be possibly related to you.  It may be that DNA tests of the best candidates located through family genealogical research around Ungvar, Hungary are the best option.  Please excuse me for not being more helpful.  Thanks, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: William Ballough
      Sent: Jul 28, 2013 7:50 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

      I have been looking for a Hungarian ancestor in the days before surnames. All I know is that he had red hair, (he was called Red) lost his left arm in a battle, and was granted a plot of land for his efforts and the plot is in or around what used to be Ungvar Hungary. The males in my recent paternal succession, however, had coal black eyes and black hair.,
      I wonder what the coloration is in contemporary P-78’s who favor their fathers complexion?
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
      Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:13 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c





      William, My cousin through our shared P78 MCRA, thanks for your informative email and I’m hoping that you’ll share more info with me and our P78 cousins. It sounds like there currently is a consensus that our P78 ancestor was born in what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area (which might also explain a high concentration of P78 in Germany) per the attached Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I map (Dr. Nordtvedt, March 16, 2013) linked to below and I'm hoping that you'll offer your thoughts on that:

      http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

      And it sounds like there's a consensus that some of our P78 ancestor’s descendants migrated southeasterly down the Danube basin with the Carpathian Mountains to the north and the Danube to the south until some of them reached the Black Sea, as reflected in the attached map linked to below, and I'd like to hear your insights on that:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Danubemap.jpg

      My understanding is that one of your insights is that there don’t appear to be any P78 founder effects in what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area or any high concentration of P78 down the Danube basin in the attached Eupedia Haplogroup I2b map linked to below:

      http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

      Or in the attached Wikipedia Haplogroup I map linked to below other than the “M223” stamped over Silesia in the Czech Republic:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I.png

      And I’d agree with you that there doesn’t appear to be a high concentration area of P78 there until you reach the Danube delta at the Black Sea and you can see an “M223” stamp there on the Wikipedia Haplogroup I map and a shaded area on the Eupedia map. I believe that we can agree that the M223 presence around the Danube delta is P78 and not our M223 brothers, Z161, L1229, or M284 because we’re unfamiliar with any of their migration patterns that would have taken them to the Danube delta, but would like to know if you know more than I do regarding this matter? I have a hypothesis that these Danube delta P78s were there for quite a while because it appears to be one of only two P78 heavy concentration areas in Eastern Europe and it seems to spread around the Black Sea into the Middle East. Please let me know if you believe that the P78 Continental 3a-Group 1 could potentially be some of the descendants of these Black Sea P78s? I believe that one of the Middle Eastern groups that you're thinking about that may have carried P78s from the Black Sea area back up into what is now the Ukraine-Hungary area is the Iazyges:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

      And it’s thought that the Jassic people in Hungary are from a subsequent migration of people related to Iazyges into Hungary:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassic_people

      I'm understanding that the theory now is that this group of P78 would have moved from what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area, down the Danube basin to the Black Sea, wrapped around the Black Sea to touch the Middle East, and then returned to Ukraine, Hungary, etc. with the Iazyges and Jassic people. Please let me know if this is what you're saying or if you believe that our P78 ancestor was born in the Middle East? Thanks, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: William Ballough
      Sent: Jul 23, 2013 6:13 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

      As far as P-78 in Hungary is concerned it may have come from the
      repopulation of central and eastern Europe after the Turks were defeated.
      Hungary and neighboring countries had sizable German immigration. Germany
      has a sizeable P-78 population. Another theory is the immigrants
      from the Mideast entered Europe through the Danube basin, and with them were
      P-78' Some settled in Hungary and neighboring countries, and the rest
      ventured west..
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Scott E. Stewart
      Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:02 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

      Honorable I-M223 Brethren, I'm also curious in regards to how P78 could have
      wound up south of the Czech Republic if that's the origin of the P78 MRCA.
      I'd note that the FTDNA Haplogroup I Project (for all of Haplogroup I and
      not just I-M223) refers to P78 as "Gothic" and there appears to be a
      scintilla of truth to that for the Gothic Confederation even if my learned
      I-M223 brethren quarrel with its precision in that it's not 100% of the
      truth (as one would assume that the Goths, having come from Gotland, were
      initially almost exclusively Haplogroup I1). As there appears to be no
      prehistoric archeological remains for P78 in the Czech Republic or Slovakia
      region, we might look to the first historical records (although there is a
      big jump from 6,000 bp and historical records) and I'd note that, per the
      attached and the link below, Tacitus in Germania refers to the Nahanarvali
      in the Czech Republic and Ptolemaeus later refers to the Siling Lugier and
      later the Siling Vandals in the Czech Republic:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahanarvali



      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silingi

      And to the east in Poland, as described in the link below, were the noble
      Scirians:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

      And further east in Ukraine were the brave Bastarnae, as described in the
      link below:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

      I'd note that all of these groups had contact with Rome and some of each of
      them became foederati or auxilia palatine and I'll leave it up to the better
      minds of my I-M223 brethren to discuss all of the outlying possibilities.
      Some best guesses might be that after Chalons

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains

      some of the Scirii joined the Visigoths, while others joined the Ostrogoths,
      others became foederati, and others returned to the Germanic realm.
      Apparently the first King of Italy, Odoacer, was Scirian and you can see a
      high-concentration band of I-M223 around Rome on the Eupedia I2b HapMap.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer

      The Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Scirii, Siling and Asding Vandals, and other
      Germanic groups all spent time in Italy and any of them could have contained
      a P78 that stayed in the Avellino province of Italy and moved to Campania.
      The purpose for the FTDNA Haplogroup I-M223 Project is for you to connect
      the dots to you. I'm at a disadvantage here because I'm neither a genetic
      geneaologist nor a European historian, so I'm hoping that there is someone
      who knows more in the FTDNA Haplogroup I-M223 Project that will help us with
      the history of P78 and its presence in Italy. Thanks for any help, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Anthony
      Sent: Jul 23, 2013 1:09 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

      Should have mentioned before; earliest y-dna ancestor does back to mid
      1600s. in a small town in the Avellino province of Italy. Perhaps one of my
      earlier ancestors
      got "drafted"into the Roman army, and relocated into Campania after that.
      My last name is DeCicco












    • Cliff. Johnston
      Klaus,   What you say has been fairly common throughout time.  I ve seen Roman Catholics convert to be Protestants of various denominations, Jews to Roman
      Message 41 of 41 , Aug 6, 2013
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        Klaus,
         
        What you say has been fairly common throughout time.  I've seen Roman Catholics convert to be Protestants of various denominations, Jews to Roman Catholics, etc..  The culture of business can be very persuasive.
         
        Cliff.

        From: "k.lachmann@..." <k.lachmann@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:58 PM
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection

        I am German on my mother's side and have some Ashkenazi blood in the family (about 10%).  This could well be from German Jews who converted to Lutheranism after the Protestant Reformation.  According to what I have read this was done more for business purposes than for religious reasons so that they would be accepted into German society.  A prime example of this is the composer Felix Mendelsohn Bartholdi.  These people in some cases inter married with the local population and in two or three generations became German.  I would not be surprised if this also happened in other European countries.
         
        That's my two cents worth.
         
        All the best,
         
         
        Klaus

        From: "Anthony Stein" <anthonystein@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 4:32:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection

        The Jewish religion isn't what is under inquiry. After all, Sammy Davis, Jr. converted to Judaism.  It is the Jewish blood line stemming (in theory) back to the blood line of Abraham.
         
        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings


        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.


        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

        From: William Ballough <williamb7@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:00 PM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection
         
        Isn’t the question when  the Jewish religion was introduced into the P-78 lineage? There are P-78 Khazars    
         
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 12:18 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection
         
        Peter, clearly P78 arises well before Abraham. I don't think that's the question.
         
        The questions are: how and when was P78 introduces to those of Jewish heritage?  The P78 introduction into the Jewish lineage may be much more recent than the age of P78 itself.
         
        Tony
         
        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
         
        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings
         
         
        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.
         
        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
         
        From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 2:10 PM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection
         
        This sound like a chicken and egg question, the adoption of the Jewish faith by some of the I2b1c’s must be thousands of years after the polymorphism that created I2b1c.
         
         
         
         
        Regards
         
        Peter
         
         
        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
         
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
        Sent: 06 August 2013 6:08 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection
         
         
        Well, Israel  is not going to lose status as a state if it is somehow proved  European Jews are descended from the Khazars, rather than the original inhabitants of the Holy Land. However, unless we start digging up and testing maternal ancestors, the question of maternal  contribution is unanswerable.   My maternal DNA (my mother’s contribution) came back “Northern European.” Nevertheless, there is a Jewish association in my Catholic Father’s line, and it could be recent, or ancient. Our P-78 results suggest it may be ancient.        
         
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:35 AM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [I-M223] P78 and the Jewish connection
         
        There is a Jewish connection with P78 but I don't think it is a particularly sensitive subject (at least to me).  After all, these P78 positive test results come only from a single direct line of the inverted triangle, i.e. measures only father-to son inherited traits through the ages.   It is meaningless in measuring inherited maternal contributions to the gene pool--which represents the vast majority of our dna.
         
        Anthony Asher Stein
        THE STEIN LAW FIRM
        4310 Madison Avenue
        Suite 113
        Kansas City, Missouri 64111
        tel. 816/753-1500
        fax. 816/753-1686
         
        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings
         
         
        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.
         
        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
         
        From: William Ballough <williamb7@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:35 AM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c
         
        I have little knowledge or understanding of this  subject. I rely mostly on the prehistory and history I have read on those associated with the Magyars. There is apparently a Jewish connection in Con. 3J. It  may have come from the Khazars or groups allied with them who entered the Danube basin with the Magyars in 900. (Prior to entering Hungary, the Magyars spent time in the area of the Black Sea.)
        The Khazars, like the Magyars, were Turkic, and had recently converted to Judaism. However, the first king of Hungary chose Christianity.  
                       The subject of the Khazars is a sensitive one.  European Jews trace their genetic heritage s to the middle east, and  Israel. Those opposed to Israel as a state  claim  that European Jews are rather the ancestors of the Khazars, and therefore have no historical claim to the area.
                       One does not have to deal with that question in speculating that the Khazars are the source of Jewish P-78 connection.  
                       As far as ancestor Red is concerned, I would guess he lived well after AD 900. Maybe land records would shed some light on this.  
                      
         
        .                rom: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
        Sent: Monday, August 5, 2013 5:05 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c
         
         
        Bill, Well, 900 A.D. is pretty close to the Continental 3J MRCA at 700 A.D. and I can see the calculations being off by a couple hundred years.  Perhaps Red was the Continental 3J MRCA?  Please let me know your thoughts?  Thanks, Scott
        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Ballough
        Sent: Aug 5, 2013 6:55 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        Yes, Scott, Dr, Nordtvedt has me in Cont-3J, which split around 4000 bp. “Red” is a much more recent ancestor. He lived after the Magyar conquest in 900 AD, and labored in the service of a Hungarian lord, defending against invading armies. The small plot of land he received was lost to the family after it became uneconomical to operate after the serfs were freed in 1858. .
        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
        Sent: Monday, August 5, 2013 12:37 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c





        I2b1c Group, My reading of the attached is that P78 Group 1 split from Group 2 around 4,300 bp and Group 1's MCRA is around 1,300 bp and, thus, I must rethink my hypothesis that Red was a Thracian. Please confirm my reading? It appears that a split date of around 6500 bp is still accurate for Group 2 and that a more accurate MCRA date for Group 2 is 4000 bp. Please confirm? Thanks, Scott

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Ballough
        Sent: Aug 3, 2013 10:14 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        I think the Hungarian population is about 4 % P-78. There is no breakdown as to geography. I wonder if it is concentrated in the northern Carpathians, rather than the Danube basin?



        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
        Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:13 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c





        Bill, Thanks for sharing in your email below regarding your Hungarian ancestor named Red with red hair. I found the attached article on the origin of red hair linked to below to be informative:

        http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml

        As we've discussed, our P78 ancestor appears to have been born around the area of the modern Czech Republic and Slovakia around 4300 bp, which I understand generally would be around 2,000 B.C. (rounded for purposes of streamlining discussion), and it appears that the ancestors of P78 Group 1 migrated down the Danube basin to the Danube Delta at the Black Sea, which would have been the area of Thrace:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace

        and I'd note that Thracians were known for having red hair, blue eyes, and a fair complexion and that "Rufus" was a common Thracian name meaning "redhead" per the link below:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

        It looks like some of the modern people around the area with a high concentration of P78, relative to P78 and assuming that most of their M223 is P78, include the Moldovan Gagauz at 5.1%:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people

        and the Mordvins in the northeasterly migration into Russia at 4.8% P78, which again is relatively high for P78 and assumes that most of the M223 present is P78:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins

        and that pale complexions, light eyes, and black, auburn, and red hair appears to be typical of them.

        I'd note that hair color genes are inherited from alleles that aren't on the Y chromosome. Ballough (Kit #N54723, Lajos Balogh, b. c. 1810, d. c. 1890, Ukraine) appears to be possibly related to you. It may be that DNA tests of the best candidates located through family genealogical research around Ungvar, Hungary are the best option. Please excuse me for not being more helpful. Thanks, Scott

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Ballough
        Sent: Jul 28, 2013 7:50 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        I have been looking for a Hungarian ancestor in the days before surnames. All I know is that he had red hair, (he was called Red) lost his left arm in a battle, and was granted a plot of land for his efforts and the plot is in or around what used to be Ungvar Hungary. The males in my recent paternal succession, however, had coal black eyes and black hair.,
        I wonder what the coloration is in contemporary P-78’s who favor their fathers complexion?
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
        Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:13 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c





        William, My cousin through our shared P78 MCRA, thanks for your informative email and I’m hoping that you’ll share more info with me and our P78 cousins. It sounds like there currently is a consensus that our P78 ancestor was born in what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area (which might also explain a high concentration of P78 in Germany) per the attached Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I map (Dr. Nordtvedt, March 16, 2013) linked to below and I'm hoping that you'll offer your thoughts on that:

        http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

        And it sounds like there's a consensus that some of our P78 ancestor’s descendants migrated southeasterly down the Danube basin with the Carpathian Mountains to the north and the Danube to the south until some of them reached the Black Sea, as reflected in the attached map linked to below, and I'd like to hear your insights on that:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Danubemap.jpg

        My understanding is that one of your insights is that there don’t appear to be any P78 founder effects in what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area or any high concentration of P78 down the Danube basin in the attached Eupedia Haplogroup I2b map linked to below:

        http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

        Or in the attached Wikipedia Haplogroup I map linked to below other than the “M223” stamped over Silesia in the Czech Republic:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I.png

        And I’d agree with you that there doesn’t appear to be a high concentration area of P78 there until you reach the Danube delta at the Black Sea and you can see an “M223” stamp there on the Wikipedia Haplogroup I map and a shaded area on the Eupedia map. I believe that we can agree that the M223 presence around the Danube delta is P78 and not our M223 brothers, Z161, L1229, or M284 because we’re unfamiliar with any of their migration patterns that would have taken them to the Danube delta, but would like to know if you know more than I do regarding this matter? I have a hypothesis that these Danube delta P78s were there for quite a while because it appears to be one of only two P78 heavy concentration areas in Eastern Europe and it seems to spread around the Black Sea into the Middle East. Please let me know if you believe that the P78 Continental 3a-Group 1 could potentially be some of the descendants of these Black Sea P78s? I believe that one of the Middle Eastern groups that you're thinking about that may have carried P78s from the Black Sea area back up into what is now the Ukraine-Hungary area is the Iazyges:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

        And it’s thought that the Jassic people in Hungary are from a subsequent migration of people related to Iazyges into Hungary:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassic_people

        I'm understanding that the theory now is that this group of P78 would have moved from what is now the Czech Republic-Slovakia area, down the Danube basin to the Black Sea, wrapped around the Black Sea to touch the Middle East, and then returned to Ukraine, Hungary, etc. with the Iazyges and Jassic people. Please let me know if this is what you're saying or if you believe that our P78 ancestor was born in the Middle East? Thanks, Scott

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Ballough
        Sent: Jul 23, 2013 6:13 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        As far as P-78 in Hungary is concerned it may have come from the
        repopulation of central and eastern Europe after the Turks were defeated.
        Hungary and neighboring countries had sizable German immigration. Germany
        has a sizeable P-78 population. Another theory is the immigrants
        from the Mideast entered Europe through the Danube basin, and with them were
        P-78' Some settled in Hungary and neighboring countries, and the rest
        ventured west..
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Scott E. Stewart
        Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:02 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        Honorable I-M223 Brethren, I'm also curious in regards to how P78 could have
        wound up south of the Czech Republic if that's the origin of the P78 MRCA.
        I'd note that the FTDNA Haplogroup I Project (for all of Haplogroup I and
        not just I-M223) refers to P78 as "Gothic" and there appears to be a
        scintilla of truth to that for the Gothic Confederation even if my learned
        I-M223 brethren quarrel with its precision in that it's not 100% of the
        truth (as one would assume that the Goths, having come from Gotland, were
        initially almost exclusively Haplogroup I1). As there appears to be no
        prehistoric archeological remains for P78 in the Czech Republic or Slovakia
        region, we might look to the first historical records (although there is a
        big jump from 6,000 bp and historical records) and I'd note that, per the
        attached and the link below, Tacitus in Germania refers to the Nahanarvali
        in the Czech Republic and Ptolemaeus later refers to the Siling Lugier and
        later the Siling Vandals in the Czech Republic:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahanarvali



        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silingi

        And to the east in Poland, as described in the link below, were the noble
        Scirians:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

        And further east in Ukraine were the brave Bastarnae, as described in the
        link below:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

        I'd note that all of these groups had contact with Rome and some of each of
        them became foederati or auxilia palatine and I'll leave it up to the better
        minds of my I-M223 brethren to discuss all of the outlying possibilities.
        Some best guesses might be that after Chalons

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains

        some of the Scirii joined the Visigoths, while others joined the Ostrogoths,
        others became foederati, and others returned to the Germanic realm.
        Apparently the first King of Italy, Odoacer, was Scirian and you can see a
        high-concentration band of I-M223 around Rome on the Eupedia I2b HapMap.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer

        The Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Scirii, Siling and Asding Vandals, and other
        Germanic groups all spent time in Italy and any of them could have contained
        a P78 that stayed in the Avellino province of Italy and moved to Campania.
        The purpose for the FTDNA Haplogroup I-M223 Project is for you to connect
        the dots to you. I'm at a disadvantage here because I'm neither a genetic
        geneaologist nor a European historian, so I'm hoping that there is someone
        who knows more in the FTDNA Haplogroup I-M223 Project that will help us with
        the history of P78 and its presence in Italy. Thanks for any help, Scott

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Anthony
        Sent: Jul 23, 2013 1:09 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [I-M223] RE: I2b1c

        Should have mentioned before; earliest y-dna ancestor does back to mid
        1600s. in a small town in the Avellino province of Italy. Perhaps one of my
        earlier ancestors
        got "drafted"into the Roman army, and relocated into Campania after that.
        My last name is DeCicco
















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