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Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

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  • Anthony Stein
    That s true.  As far as I can trace back my family tree (late 1800 s limited by the Pogroms), no gentiles in my father s lineage.  However, who is to say
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 1 5:15 AM
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      That's true.  As far as I can trace back my family tree (late 1800's limited by the Pogroms), no gentiles in my father's lineage.  However, who is to say about some forced sexual act upon one of my ancient Jewish "grandmothers" centuries ago?  From the research that I've done on P78 and the Jewish connection, I was told that one physical qualifier is that those Jews having P78 often have blue eyes--a trait that I inherited from my Dad. 
       
      Anthony Asher Stein
      THE STEIN LAW FIRM
      4310 Madison Avenue
      Suite 113
      Kansas City, Missouri 64111
      tel. 816/753-1500
      fax. 816/753-1686


      AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
      Ratings


      Offices also in Parkville,
      Missouri.


      "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

      From: William Ballough <williamb7@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:03 PM
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

      If I recall correctly, Dr. Nordtvedt has divided P-78 into  Jewish and non-Jewish group . I believe he can throw some light on the subject.  A further complicating factor here is that a child of a Jewish mother and Gentile father is considered a Jew under Jewish law, and could very well raise their offspring in the Jewish tradition.  
       
      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:42 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
       
       
      To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
       
      Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
       
      AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
      Ratings
       
       
      Offices also in Parkville,
      Missouri.
       
      "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
       
      From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
       
      Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

      Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
      P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
      What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
      There is still a lot to be discovered.
      Wayne

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Scott E. Stewart
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



      Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
      To: I-M223 List
      Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
      Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
      Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
      To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

      SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
      TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




      - - - -
      Kenneth Nordtvedt

      See:
      "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
      "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
      "Tree for I1 Z60+"
      "Tree for I1 L22+"
      "Tree for M223 x Z161"
      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
      "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
      "The I1 modalities"
      "The M223+ Modalities"


      at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

      These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


      -------------------------------
      To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message


       
      To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
       
      Anthony Asher Stein THE STEIN LAW FIRM 4310 Madison Avenue Suite 113 Kansas City, Missouri 64111 tel. 816/753-1500 fax. 816/753-1686


      AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
      Ratings


      Offices also in Parkville,
      Missouri.


      "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

      From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
       
      Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

      Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
      P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
      What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
      There is still a lot to be discovered.
      Wayne

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Scott E. Stewart
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



      Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wayne Roberts
      Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
      To: I-M223 List
      Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
      Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
      Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
      To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

      SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
      TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




      - - - -
      Kenneth Nordtvedt

      See:
      "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
      "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
      "Tree for I1 Z60+"
      "Tree for I1 L22+"
      "Tree for M223 x Z161"
      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
      "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
      "The I1 modalities"
      "The M223+ Modalities"


      at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

      These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


      -------------------------------
      To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message





    • Anthony Stein
      I love it!  P78 is the law gene... Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax.
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 2 11:09 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        I love it!  P78 is the law gene...
         
        Anthony Asher Stein THE STEIN LAW FIRM 4310 Madison Avenue Suite 113 Kansas City, Missouri 64111 tel. 816/753-1500 fax. 816/753-1686


        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings


        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.


        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

        From: William Ballough <williamb7@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
        A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
         
        Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?
         
        Regards
         
        Peter
         
         
        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.


        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.


         
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
        Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
         
        Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.
         
        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
         
        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings
         
         
        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.
         
        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
         
        From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
        Anthony
         
        Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.
         
        Regards
         
        Peter
         
         
        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
         
        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
        Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
         
        To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
         
        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
         
        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
        Ratings
         
         
        Offices also in Parkville,
        Missouri.
         
        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
         
        From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
         
        Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Wayne Roberts
        Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

        Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
        P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
        What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
        There is still a lot to be discovered.
        Wayne

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Scott E. Stewart
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



        Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Wayne Roberts
        Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
        To: I-M223 List
        Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

        ---------- Forwarded message ----------
        From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
        Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
        Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
        To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

        SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
        TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




        - - - -
        Kenneth Nordtvedt

        See:
        "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
        "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
        "Tree for I1 Z60+"
        "Tree for I1 L22+"
        "Tree for M223 x Z161"
        "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
        "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
        "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
        "The I1 modalities"
        "The M223+ Modalities"


        at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

        These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


        -------------------------------
        To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message


      • Scott E. Stewart
        P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me? That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen. I office in Fort Worth,
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 2 11:16 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me?  That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen.  I office in Fort Worth, Texas and Anthony offices in Kansas City.  Where do William and Peter office?  A good omen is that it looks like two of us, Anthony and William, are Group 1 and two of us, Peter and me, are Group 2.  Like Peter, I'm trying to trace my immigrant ancestor to the U.K. and hopefully find other ancestors there.  Thanks for working on these P78 issues as a group, Scott
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Anthony Stein
          Sent: Aug 2, 2013 1:09 PM
          To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com"
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

          I love it!  P78 is the law gene...


          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
          Ratings


          Offices also in Parkville,
          Missouri.


          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."


          ________________________________
          From: William Ballough
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


           

          A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
           
           
          Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?
           
          Regards
           
          Peter
           
           
          This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
          It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

          If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



          Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

          This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



           
          From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
          Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
           
           
          Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.
           
          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
           
          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
          Ratings
           
           
          Offices also in Parkville,
          Missouri.
           
          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
           
          From:Peter
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
           
          Anthony
           
          Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.
           
          Regards
           
          Peter
           
           
          This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
          It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

          If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
          Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

          This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
           
          From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
          Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
           
           
          To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
           
          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
           
          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
          Ratings
           
           
          Offices also in Parkville,
          Missouri.
           
          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
           
          From:Scott E. Stewart
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
           
          Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Wayne Roberts
          Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

          Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
          P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
          What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
          There is still a lot to be discovered.
          Wayne

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Scott E. Stewart
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



          Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any
          remedial education, Scott

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Wayne Roberts
          Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
          To: I-M223 List
          Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

          ---------- Forwarded message ----------
          From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
          Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
          Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
          To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

          SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
          TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




          - - - -
          Kenneth Nordtvedt

          See:
          "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
          "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
          "Tree for I1 Z60+"
          "Tree for I1 L22+"
          "Tree for M223 x Z161"
          "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
          "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
          "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
          "The I1 modalities"
          "The M223+ Modalities"


          at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

          These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


          -------------------------------
          To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




        • Anthony Stein
          Good email Scott.  I can t run my family tree on my father s side any further back than 1892 (when my great grandfather) was forced to leave Russia due to the
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 2 11:31 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Good email Scott.  I can't run my family tree on my father's side any further back than 1892 (when my great grandfather) was forced to leave Russia due to the Czarist pogroms.  That's why the family dna studies are so interesting.
             
            As for my mother's Norwegian side, well, there's plenty of family tree material there.
             
            Anthony Asher Stein THE STEIN LAW FIRM 4310 Madison Avenue Suite 113 Kansas City, Missouri 64111 tel. 816/753-1500 fax. 816/753-1686


            AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
            Ratings


            Offices also in Parkville,
            Missouri.


            "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

            From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 1:16 PM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
            P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me?  That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen.  I office in Fort Worth, Texas and Anthony offices in Kansas City.  Where do William and Peter office?  A good omen is that it looks like two of us, Anthony and William, are Group 1 and two of us, Peter and me, are Group 2.  Like Peter, I'm trying to trace my immigrant ancestor to the U.K. and hopefully find other ancestors there.  Thanks for working on these P78 issues as a group, Scott
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Anthony Stein
            Sent: Aug 2, 2013 1:09 PM
            To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com"
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

            I love it!  P78 is the law gene...


            Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


            AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
            Ratings


            Offices also in Parkville,
            Missouri.


            "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."


            ________________________________
            From: William Ballough
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
            Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


             

            A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
            Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
             
            Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?
             
            Regards
             
            Peter
             
             
            This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
            It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

            If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



            Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

            This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



             
            From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
            Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
             
            Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.
             
            Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
             
            AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
            Ratings
             
             
            Offices also in Parkville,
            Missouri.
             
            "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
             
            From:Peter
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
            Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
            Anthony
             
            Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.
             
            Regards
             
            Peter
             
             
            This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
            It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

            If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
            Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

            This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
             
            From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
            Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
             
            To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
             
            Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
             
            AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
            Ratings
             
             
            Offices also in Parkville,
            Missouri.
             
            "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
             
            From:Scott E. Stewart
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
             
            Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Wayne Roberts
            Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

            Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
            P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
            What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
            There is still a lot to be discovered.
            Wayne

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Scott E. Stewart
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



            Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any
            remedial education, Scott

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Wayne Roberts
            Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
            To: I-M223 List
            Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

            ---------- Forwarded message ----------
            From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
            Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
            Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
            To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

            SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
            TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




            - - - -
            Kenneth Nordtvedt

            See:
            "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
            "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
            "Tree for I1 Z60+"
            "Tree for I1 L22+"
            "Tree for M223 x Z161"
            "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
            "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
            "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
            "The I1 modalities"
            "The M223+ Modalities"


            at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

            These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


            -------------------------------
            To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




          • William Ballough
            I (guys, you can call me Bill) am in Los Angeles. I just retired from the practice of law (the third time). I was an appellate lawyer, and have a research bent
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 2 3:59 PM
            • 0 Attachment

              I (guys, you can call me Bill) am in Los Angeles. I just retired from the practice of law (the third time). I was an appellate lawyer, and have a research bent ( I was one of the initial investigators for computerized legal research on a California State Bar committee.)

              I became interested in genealogy due to  my father’s belief that his line was descended from the Magyars, and  stories of a colorful ancestor which chose the very common Hungarian surname Balogh, as a surname. The name was Anglicized when my father’s family immigrated to the US, apparently  to escape prejudice in the early 1900’s against Bohemians.

                            

                                

               

              From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott E. Stewart
              Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 11:17 AM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

               

               

              P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me?  That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen.  I office in Fort Worth, Texas and Anthony offices in Kansas City.  Where do William and Peter office?  A good omen is that it looks like two of us, Anthony and William, are Group 1 and two of us, Peter and me, are Group 2.  Like Peter, I'm trying to trace my immigrant ancestor to the U.K. and hopefully find other ancestors there.  Thanks for working on these P78 issues as a group, Scott

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Anthony Stein
              Sent: Aug 2, 2013 1:09 PM
              To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com"
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

              I love it!  P78 is the law gene...


              Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


              AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
              Ratings


              Offices also in Parkville,
              Missouri.


              "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."


              ________________________________
              From: William Ballough
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
              Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


               

              A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
              Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
               
               
              Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?
               
              Regards
               
              Peter
               
               
              This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
              It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

              If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



              Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

              This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



               
              From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
              Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
               
               
              Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.
               
              Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
               
              AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
              Ratings
               
               
              Offices also in Parkville,
              Missouri.
               
              "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
               
              From:Peter
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
              Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
               
              Anthony
               
              Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.
               
              Regards
               
              Peter
               
               
              This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
              It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

              If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
              Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

              This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
               
              From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
              Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
               
               
              To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
               
              Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
               
              AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
              Ratings
               
               
              Offices also in Parkville,
              Missouri.
               
              "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
               
              From:Scott E. Stewart
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
               
              Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Wayne Roberts
              Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

              Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
              P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
              What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
              There is still a lot to be discovered.
              Wayne

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Scott E. Stewart
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



              Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any
              remedial education, Scott

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Wayne Roberts
              Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
              To: I-M223 List
              Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

              ---------- Forwarded message ----------
              From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
              Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
              Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
              To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

              SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
              TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




              - - - -
              Kenneth Nordtvedt

              See:
              "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
              "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
              "Tree for I1 Z60+"
              "Tree for I1 L22+"
              "Tree for M223 x Z161"
              "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
              "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
              "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
              "The I1 modalities"
              "The M223+ Modalities"


              at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

              These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


              -------------------------------
              To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



            • Wayne Roberts
              Scott, I see you have a new Stuart DNA cousin in P78+ clade with a different known ancestor to you and David Kyle. Wayne ... From: Scott E. Stewart To:
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 2 5:13 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                
                Scott,
                 
                I see you have a new Stuart DNA cousin in P78+ clade with a different known ancestor to you and David Kyle.
                 
                Wayne
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:16 AM
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                 

                P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me?  That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen.  I office in Fort Worth, Texas and Anthony offices in Kansas City.  Where do William and Peter office?  A good omen is that it looks like two of us, Anthony and William, are Group 1 and two of us, Peter and me, are Group 2.  Like Peter, I'm trying to trace my immigrant ancestor to the U.K. and hopefully find other ancestors there.  Thanks for working on these P78 issues as a group, Scott

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Anthony Stein
                Sent: Aug 2, 2013 1:09 PM
                To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com"
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                I love it!  P78 is the law gene...


                Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


                AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                Ratings


                Offices also in Parkville,
                Missouri.


                "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."


                ________________________________
                From: William Ballough
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
                Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


                 

                A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                 
                 
                Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?
                 
                Regards
                 
                Peter
                 
                 
                This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

                If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



                Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

                This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



                 
                From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                 
                 
                Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.
                 
                Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
                 
                AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                Ratings
                 
                 
                Offices also in Parkville,
                Missouri.
                 
                "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
                 
                From:Peter
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                 
                Anthony
                 
                Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.
                 
                Regards
                 
                Peter
                 
                 
                This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

                If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
                Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

                This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.
                 
                From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                 
                 
                To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.
                 
                Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686
                 
                AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                Ratings
                 
                 
                Offices also in Parkville,
                Missouri.
                 
                "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."
                 
                From:Scott E. Stewart
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                 
                Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Wayne Roberts
                Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                There is still a lot to be discovered.
                Wayne

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Scott E. Stewart
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any
                remedial education, Scott

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Wayne Roberts
                Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                To: I-M223 List
                Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                - - - -
                Kenneth Nordtvedt

                See:
                "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                "Tree for I1 L22+"
                "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                "The I1 modalities"
                "The M223+ Modalities"


                at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


                -------------------------------
                To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




              • Peter
                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3 10:32 AM
                • 0 Attachment

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                  Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                   

                  A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family.

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                  William,  I think I am the first one to be able to read and write in several hundred years, in my family.J

                   

                   

                  Not realy true about the reading and writing as far back as my ggg grandfather they all spoke, read and wrote in English and Irish which is more than I can do.

                   

                   

                   

                  Regards

                   

                  Peter

                   

                   

                  This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                  It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                  If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                  Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                  This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                   

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                  Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                   

                  A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                   

                  Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?

                   

                  Regards

                   

                  Peter

                   

                   

                  This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                  It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                  If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



                  Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                  This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



                   

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                  Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                   

                  Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.

                   

                  Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                   

                  AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                  Ratings

                   

                   

                  Offices also in Parkville,
                  Missouri.

                   

                  "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                   

                  From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                  Anthony

                   

                  Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.

                   

                  Regards

                   

                  Peter

                   

                   

                  This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                  It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                  If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                  Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                  This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                   

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                  Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                   

                  To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.

                   

                  Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                   

                  AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                  Ratings

                   

                   

                  Offices also in Parkville,
                  Missouri.

                   

                  "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                   

                  From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                   

                  Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Wayne Roberts
                  Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                  Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                  P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                  What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                  There is still a lot to be discovered.
                  Wayne

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Scott E. Stewart
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                  Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Wayne Roberts
                  Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                  To: I-M223 List
                  Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                  From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                  Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                  Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                  To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                  SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                  TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                  - - - -
                  Kenneth Nordtvedt

                  See:
                  "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                  "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                  "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                  "Tree for I1 L22+"
                  "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                  "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                  "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                  "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                  "The I1 modalities"
                  "The M223+ Modalities"


                  at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                  These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


                  -------------------------------
                  To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



                • William Ballough
                  My father, age 9, travelled to the US in steerage. At that time, most of the “good” jobs had been taken by the Irish. My grandfather wished to find a job
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 3 12:01 PM
                  • 0 Attachment

                    My father, age 9, travelled to the US in steerage.  At that time, most of the “good” jobs had been taken by the Irish. My grandfather wished to find a job New York, but the Irish, who had all entry level jobs, “physically convinced” them to move on to Chicago. I do not think my father was fond of the Irish, but I hold no grudge. When my father was 14, my grandfather told him he was a man,  and got him a job in a steel mill.

                                   I note that in the Steinway piano factory, Germans had the top jobs, with Irish in the next to bottom job, with Bohemians at the bottom. This order seems to be more or less in order of arrival.

                     

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                    Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:33 AM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                    Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    William,  I think I am the first one to be able to read and write in several hundred years, in my family.J

                     

                     

                    Not realy true about the reading and writing as far back as my ggg grandfather they all spoke, read and wrote in English and Irish which is more than I can do.

                     

                     

                     

                    Regards

                     

                    Peter

                     

                     

                    This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                    It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                    If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.


                    Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                    This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.


                     

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                    Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?

                     

                    Regards

                     

                    Peter

                     

                     

                    This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                    It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                    If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.




                    Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                    This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.




                     

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                    Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.

                     

                    Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                     

                    AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                    Ratings

                     

                     

                    Offices also in Parkville,
                    Missouri.

                     

                    "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                     

                    From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                    Anthony

                     

                    Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.

                     

                    Regards

                     

                    Peter

                     

                     

                    This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                    It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                    If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                    Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                    This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                     

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                    Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                     

                    To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.

                     

                    Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                     

                    AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                    Ratings

                     

                     

                    Offices also in Parkville,
                    Missouri.

                     

                    "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                     

                    From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                     

                    Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Wayne Roberts
                    Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                    Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                    P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                    What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                    There is still a lot to be discovered.
                    Wayne

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Scott E. Stewart
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                    Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Wayne Roberts
                    Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                    To: I-M223 List
                    Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                    From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                    Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                    Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                    To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                    SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                    TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                    - - - -
                    Kenneth Nordtvedt

                    See:
                    "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                    "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                    "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                    "Tree for I1 L22+"
                    "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                    "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                    "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                    "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                    "The I1 modalities"
                    "The M223+ Modalities"


                    at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                    These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


                    -------------------------------
                    To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




                  • Peter
                    William It is somewhat ironic that national allegiances of our ancestors overrode the probable genetic family relationship that existed across the national
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 3 12:42 PM
                    • 0 Attachment

                      William

                       

                      It is somewhat ironic that national allegiances of our ancestors overrode the probable genetic family relationship that existed across the national boundaries.

                       

                      The irish person  who “physically convinced” your ancestors to move on to Chicago may have been more closely related to your ancestor than he was to his own fellow countrymen, it just proves what strong ties culture produces.

                       

                       

                      Regards

                       

                      Peter

                       

                       

                      This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                      It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                      If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                      Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                      This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                      Sent: 03 August 2013 8:02 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      My father, age 9, travelled to the US in steerage.  At that time, most of the “good” jobs had been taken by the Irish. My grandfather wished to find a job New York, but the Irish, who had all entry level jobs, “physically convinced” them to move on to Chicago. I do not think my father was fond of the Irish, but I hold no grudge. When my father was 14, my grandfather told him he was a man,  and got him a job in a steel mill.

                                     I note that in the Steinway piano factory, Germans had the top jobs, with Irish in the next to bottom job, with Bohemians at the bottom. This order seems to be more or less in order of arrival.

                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                      Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:33 AM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                      Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      William,  I think I am the first one to be able to read and write in several hundred years, in my family.J

                       

                       

                      Not realy true about the reading and writing as far back as my ggg grandfather they all spoke, read and wrote in English and Irish which is more than I can do.

                       

                       

                       

                      Regards

                       

                      Peter

                       

                       

                      This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                      It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                      If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



                      Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                      This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.



                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                      Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?

                       

                      Regards

                       

                      Peter

                       

                       

                      This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                      It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                      If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.





                      Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                      This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.





                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                      Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.

                       

                      Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                       

                      AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                      Ratings

                       

                       

                      Offices also in Parkville,
                      Missouri.

                       

                      "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                       

                      From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                      Anthony

                       

                      Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.

                       

                      Regards

                       

                      Peter

                       

                       

                      This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                      It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                      If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                      Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                      This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                       

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                      Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                       

                      To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.

                       

                      Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                       

                      AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                      Ratings

                       

                       

                      Offices also in Parkville,
                      Missouri.

                       

                      "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                       

                      From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                       

                      Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Wayne Roberts
                      Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                      Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                      P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                      What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                      There is still a lot to be discovered.
                      Wayne

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Scott E. Stewart
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                      Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Wayne Roberts
                      Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                      To: I-M223 List
                      Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                      From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                      Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                      Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                      To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                      SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                      TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                      - - - -
                      Kenneth Nordtvedt

                      See:
                      "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                      "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                      "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                      "Tree for I1 L22+"
                      "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                      "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                      "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                      "The I1 modalities"
                      "The M223+ Modalities"


                      at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                      These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


                      -------------------------------
                      To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message





                    • William Ballough
                      Absolutely,! Everyone seeks an identity to some degree. The Nazi’s had some difficulty in integrating Hungary into their “Master Race”, and were forced
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 3 2:21 PM
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Absolutely,! Everyone seeks an identity to some degree. The Nazi’s had some difficulty in integrating Hungary into their  “Master Race”,  and were forced to link  their language to Finno-Ugric, rather than Central Asian, , a stretch, to say the least. They could never deal with the Japanese as allies having labelled Asians “inferior.” As far as recognizing fellow Master Race comrades, the Nazi’s had to resort to require the wearing of badges to identify  non- supermen.  

                        I do not believe anyone truly believes clades  will  differ in abilities or  interests.  Time and circumstances  seem to me to be the biggest factor .     

                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                        Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 12:42 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        William

                         

                        It is somewhat ironic that national allegiances of our ancestors overrode the probable genetic family relationship that existed across the national boundaries.

                         

                        The irish person  who “physically convinced” your ancestors to move on to Chicago may have been more closely related to your ancestor than he was to his own fellow countrymen, it just proves what strong ties culture produces.

                         

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Peter

                         

                         

                        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.


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                        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.


                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                        Sent: 03 August 2013 8:02 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        My father, age 9, travelled to the US in steerage.  At that time, most of the “good” jobs had been taken by the Irish. My grandfather wished to find a job New York, but the Irish, who had all entry level jobs, “physically convinced” them to move on to Chicago. I do not think my father was fond of the Irish, but I hold no grudge. When my father was 14, my grandfather told him he was a man,  and got him a job in a steel mill.

                                       I note that in the Steinway piano factory, Germans had the top jobs, with Irish in the next to bottom job, with Bohemians at the bottom. This order seems to be more or less in order of arrival.

                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                        Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:33 AM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                        Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family.

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        William,  I think I am the first one to be able to read and write in several hundred years, in my family.J

                         

                         

                        Not realy true about the reading and writing as far back as my ggg grandfather they all spoke, read and wrote in English and Irish which is more than I can do.

                         

                         

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Peter

                         

                         

                        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.




                        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.




                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Ballough
                        Sent: 01 August 2013 12:52 AM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965.  Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe.  Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Peter

                         

                         

                        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.






                        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.






                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                        Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        Perhaps you are right.  P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.

                         

                        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                         

                        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                        Ratings

                         

                         

                        Offices also in Parkville,
                        Missouri.

                         

                        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                         

                        From: Peter <pjbutler03@...>
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                        Anthony

                         

                        Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Peter

                         

                         

                        This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                        It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.


                        If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.

                        Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.


                        This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                         

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                        Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                         

                        To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.

                         

                        Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                         

                        AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                        Ratings

                         

                         

                        Offices also in Parkville,
                        Missouri.

                         

                        "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                         

                        From: Scott E. Stewart <sestewart1@...>
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                         

                        Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues.  I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade.  I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it.  I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector.  Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Wayne Roberts
                        Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                        Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                        P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                        What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                        There is still a lot to be discovered.
                        Wayne

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Scott E. Stewart
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                        Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any remedial education, Scott

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Wayne Roberts
                        Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                        To: I-M223 List
                        Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                        ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                        From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                        Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                        Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                        To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                        SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                        TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                        - - - -
                        Kenneth Nordtvedt

                        See:
                        "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                        "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                        "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                        "Tree for I1 L22+"
                        "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                        "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                        "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                        "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                        "The I1 modalities"
                        "The M223+ Modalities"


                        at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                        These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


                        -------------------------------
                        To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@... with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message






                      • Scott E. Stewart
                        Wayne, Yes, He appears to be about a fourth cousin to me and David is about an eighth cousin to me. I saw your email to Bill stating that it d be helpful to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 4 2:15 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Wayne, Yes, He appears to be about a fourth cousin to me and David is about an eighth cousin to me.  I saw your email to Bill stating that it'd be helpful to have more L701 sector people, even those who are closely related, in the I-M223 Project.  Our shared ancestor would be our immigrant ancestor and we haven't been able to trace his family to the U.K., so we can only trace back about 357 years and there are maybe 10 generations of us in the U.S.  There are about 13 of us in FTDNA, 9 participating in the Stewart Project, 3 participating in the I-M223 Project, and we would all descend from the four sons of our immigrant ancestor.  I'll try emailing some of them to see if they'll join the I-M223 Project and we may be able to put together a family group like Perry in L703 if that is helpful.  Please let us know more about how we're moving forward so that we can be as helpful as possible.  Thanks, Scott
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Wayne Roberts
                          Sent: Aug 2, 2013 7:13 PM
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          Scott, I see you have a new Stuart DNA cousin in P78+ clade with a different known ancestor to you and David Kyle.
                          Wayne

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Scott E. Stewart
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:16 AM
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                          P78 Group, Are all four of us attorneys, Anthony, William, Peter, and me? That would be a strange coincidence and perhaps a bad omen. I office in Fort Worth, Texas and Anthony offices in Kansas City. Where do William and Peter office? A good omen is that it looks like two of us, Anthony and William, are Group 1 and two of us, Peter and me, are Group 2. Like Peter, I'm trying to trace my immigrant ancestor to the U.K. and hopefully find other ancestors there. Thanks for working on these P78 issues as a group, Scott


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Anthony Stein
                          Sent: Aug 2, 2013 1:09 PM
                          To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com"
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          I love it! P78 is the law gene...


                          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686


                          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                          Ratings


                          Offices also in Parkville,
                          Missouri.


                          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."


                          ________________________________
                          From: William Ballough
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:52 PM
                          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+




                          A recessive gene, if that. I am the first lawyer in several hundred years in my family. The Khazars complicate the story, as they converted to Judaism in 965. Large numbers of Khazars left their area in central asia, and traveled to the Danube basin with the Magyars, who settled in Hungary, and terrorized all of Europe. Only a small percentage of Hungarians have the central Asian Magyar gene, but there are some Hungarians with Khazar genes. They have Turkic features From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:20 AM
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


                          Agreed, 6000 year ago is a long time ago I doubt if there was any organised religion back then, perhaps us P78’s have inherited a law gene?

                          Regards

                          Peter


                          This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                          It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

                          If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.



                          Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

                          This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.




                          From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                          Sent: 31 July 2013 3:06 PM
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


                          Perhaps you are right. P78 seems to raise as many questions as it answers.

                          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                          Ratings


                          Offices also in Parkville,
                          Missouri.

                          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                          From:Peter
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:00 AM
                          Subject: RE: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          Anthony

                          Being P78 myself I find the whole I2b1c discussion very interesting wouldn’t but your ancestors be P78 a very long time before they were Jewish.

                          Regards

                          Peter


                          This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s).
                          It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998.

                          If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system.
                          Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer.

                          This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

                          From:I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Stein
                          Sent: 31 July 2013 2:42 PM
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+


                          To make analysis more interesting with 6500 year old P78, my father's line is of Jewish descent.

                          Anthony Asher SteinTHE STEIN LAW FIRM4310 Madison AvenueSuite 113Kansas City, Missouri 64111tel. 816/753-1500fax. 816/753-1686

                          AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell Peer Review
                          Ratings


                          Offices also in Parkville,
                          Missouri.

                          "NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attachments may contain attorney-client privileged or otherwise confidential information. Recipients should ensure that proper security measures are taken to maintain any privileged or confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient of this electronic mail message as listed above, please notify The 'Such and Such Law Firm" immediately and delete or destroy the electronic message and all printed copies. The unauthorized disclosure of privileged or otherwise confidential information is strictly prohibited. All recipients are hereby notified that (1) electronic mail is not secure, (2) any electronic mail sent to or received by you may be exposed to multiple computers and/or users in transit, and (3) interception during transit by improper access may occur."

                          From:Scott E. Stewart
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:09 PM
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          Wayne, I appreciate your candor and all of your help with these P78+ clade issues. I have a lot of P78+ clade questions arising from Dr. Nordtvedt's Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I Schematic (Mar. 16, 2013), M223 x Z161 Sector Tree (July 27, 2013), his comments over the last few years regarding P78+ migration, and the FTDNA I-M223 Y-Haplogroup Project-Y-DNA Member Distribution Maps for the P78+ clade. I was trying to keep the P78+ clade Pandora's box tightly shut, but the Age of P78+ Clade in M223+ email knocked it open and let all of the P78+ clade questions escape from it. I'll put together an email to Dr. Nordtvedt over the weekend to bring out more detail hopefully on the L701 sector. Again, thanks for all of your help with this, Scott
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Wayne Roberts
                          Sent: Jul 30, 2013 5:02 PM
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          Scott, I was not making a point. I was forwarding Kenneth's message. I am a genealogist not a genetic genealogist and know as much as you if not less about all this timelines and ages stuff. It is the reason I have left it to others to make comments.
                          P78 is the current Terminal SNP but it will not be THE Terminal SNP for most.
                          What we are seeing as the results for STR marker upgrades are posted by FTDNA to members and thus the Project, are some unique marker values that seem to tag a specific paternal line. It is possible these will have (private) SNPs associated with them still to be discovered.
                          There is still a lot to be discovered.
                          Wayne

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Scott E. Stewart
                          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:37 AM
                          Subject: Re: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+



                          Wayne, Point taken that arrowheads, not branches on the I-M170 Tree, indicate clade MRCAs. I was reading the P78 TMCRA estimate at the branch, which appears to be about 6500 bp, for the P78 MRCA rather than at the arrowhead, which is 4300 bp. My only excuse is that I'm not a genetic genealogist, let alone a rocket scientist, and I spend too much time with the M223, without Z161, Sector Tree and need to spend more time with the overall I-M170 Tree. My understanding is that TMRCA estimates are done by the accumulation of mutations in STR sequences of the Y-Chromosome, not SNPs. My understanding is that a node is an ancestor and the node that I was referencing was the P78 MRCA and my understanding is that P78 is currently considered a terminal SNP . The TMRCA estimators haven't been important to me until now, but I believe that I know where I can find some good material and I'll spend more time with it. Until then, please confirm? Thanks in advance for any
                          remedial education, Scott

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Wayne Roberts
                          Sent: Jul 29, 2013 11:27 PM
                          To: I-M223 List
                          Subject: [I-M223] Fw: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+

                          ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                          From: Kenneth Nordtvedt
                          Date: Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:39 AM
                          Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of P78+ clade in M223+
                          To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@...

                          SNPs can not be age estimated in trees; only nodes can. SNPs can have happened anywhere on the branch segment in which they live (SNPs don’t reside at nodes, either), so their time of occurrence is only bracketed by the time estimates of two nodes.
                          TMRCA estimate for P78+ haplotype collection is 4300 years ago; just as indicated on the “Tree for M223 x Z161”.




                          - - - -
                          Kenneth Nordtvedt

                          See:
                          "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
                          "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
                          "Tree for I1 Z60+"
                          "Tree for I1 L22+"
                          "Tree for M223 x Z161"
                          "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6364+"
                          "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6364"
                          "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
                          "The I1 modalities"
                          "The M223+ Modalities"


                          at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

                          These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.


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