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FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...

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  • sallfertorr
    Mike, Can you expand on what you mean by incredulity ? Do you mean your group does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP s puts you on
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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      Mike,

      Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago? I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.

      The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.

      Thanks,
      Aaron Torres

      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
      >
      > Aaron
      >
      > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about this.
      >
      >
      > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
      > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the same
      > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
      > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR matches?
      >
      > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      > sallfertorr@... writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello, Mike
      >
      > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent Common
      > Ancestor appearances.
      >
      > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
      > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them (different
      > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
      > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the individuals
      > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
      >
      > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Aaron Torres
      >
      > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
      > manth43470@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Aaron,
      > >
      > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
      > > there such a word).
      > >
      > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled. The
      > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
      > >
      > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
      > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
      > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
      > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
      > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
      > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
      > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
      > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
      > >
      > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
      > >
      > > Mike
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      > > sallfertorr@ writes:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hello, Mike
      > >
      > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of M223,
      > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
      > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Aaron Torres
      > >
      > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
      > > manth43470@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Aaron,
      > > >
      > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and I
      >
      > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
      > > importantly,
      > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
      > > >
      > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
      > > >
      > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello, Brian
      > > >
      > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
      > Then
      > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > > Aaron Torres
      > > >
      > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) , Brian
      > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
      > for
      > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
      > > descrepency.
      > > > When, an explaination is in order.
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree review
      > will
      > > > correctÃÆ'‚ or publish it.
      > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'‚ I simply do not understand it. I am not at my
      > mental
      > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
      > null.
      > > It
      > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
      > > sub-clade
      > > > location.)
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ I am glad we getÃÆ'‚ allele counts on every DYS tested. I
      > also,
      > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'‚ on my M223
      > certificate.
      > > Although,
      > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'‚ DYS 19/394ÃÆ'‚
      > does
      > > not equal
      > > > zero alleles.
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I simply
      > know.
      > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
      > with
      > > 16
      > > > alleles.ÃÆ'‚
      > > > > IÃÆ'‚ know.ÃÆ'‚ I cannot explain it. That is an area. Where, I
      > rely on,
      > > FT
      > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i rely
      > on
      > > > y-search, to a point.
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚
      > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
      > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
      > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
      > Re:
      > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å"write-inÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â campaign
      > to get them to do
      > > somethingÃÆ'¢â‚¬
      > > > ¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cliff.
      > > > >
      > > > > From: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > [mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ] On
      > Behalf
      > > Of
      > > > Brian McCall
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
      > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
      > Re:
      > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
      > > > >
      > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank on
      > > our
      > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
      > > allele
      > > > count. We are given the allele count.
      > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my 111marker
      > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele count
      > of
      > > 16.
      > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
      > be
      > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a null.
      > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
      > left
      > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna or
      > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or is
      > > left blank.
      > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
      > (If
      > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like to
      > > know
      > > > it.)
      > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the 111
      > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
      > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test completed
      > > and
      > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
      > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
      > > muation
      > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
      > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16 alleles;
      > > be
      > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
      > blank,
      > >
      > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
      > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to fix
      > > with
      > > > a notation.
      > > > > BD McCall
      > > > >
      > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
      > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
      > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
      > Re:
      > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
      > > > >
      > > > > BD,
      > > > >
      > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
      > > him/her/it
      > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cliff.
      > > > >
      > > > > From: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > [mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ] On
      > Behalf
      > > Of
      > > > Brian McCall
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
      > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
      > Re:
      > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello,Aaron
      > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS 717
      >
      > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If they
      > > have a
      > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
      > > allele
      > > > count goes from 17 and up.
      > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
      > > > > BD McCall
      > > > >
      > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
      > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
      > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
      > > Z161,
      > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello, Dora
      > > > >
      > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that website
      > -
      > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
      > > > >
      > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will be
      > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
      > > names).
      > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > Aaron Torres
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
      > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
      > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) , Dora
      > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
      > ENTER
      > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Dora
      > > > > > -->
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Dora Smith
      There are projects like that. One of my ancestors was Abraham Doolittle of Connecticut. The owners of the Doolittle project want greatly to believe that all
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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        There are projects like that.   One of my ancestors was Abraham Doolittle of Connecticut.  The owners of the Doolittle project want greatly to believe that all Doolittles are related.  The evidence overwhelmingly supports thinking they are.    However, the project administrators have lumped all Doolittles together and speak of a common haplotype, including the haplotype that belongs to a line that is clearly from a nonpaternity event.    That is the only line that still lives in Kidderminster, but they don't need that line to make the case since one of the other groups has a recent paper trail to Kidderminster.   The others could only be tied to Kidderminster by their Y DNA.    But it gets better.   That line with the trail to Kidderminster?   I don't know how much of it is that that individual is the husband of an author who wants only to sell her book.    The testing was done in England, I think.    Several markers are very different.   It looks like a combination of error and lab differences, but I can't pin down the project administrator on it.  This is R1b1a2.    Mind you, when I try to pin him down on the paper trail connecting Abraham Doolittle of Connecticut to Kidderminster, he informs me that he has been to the church in Kidderminster and hugged and kissed one of the pillars.   Only circumstantial evidence, such as name similarities, ties Abraham Doolittle of Connecticut to Kidderminster.   

        Dora



        On 6/1/2012 9:38 AM, sallfertorr wrote:
         

        Mike,

        Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago? I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.

        The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.

        Thanks,
        Aaron Torres

        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
        >
        > Aaron
        >
        > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about this.
        >
        >



      • manth43470@aol.com
        Aaron, We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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          Aaron,
           
          We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with different surnames are related because FTDNA said we were matches.  It would appear that the only way we are related  is in M223 thousands of years ago instead of hundreds.  Thank you for all your excellent work.  We appreciate it.  We will move along to more fruitful areas of research.
           
          With highest regards,
           
          G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
           
          In a message dated 6/1/2012 7:39:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sallfertorr@... writes:
           

          Mike,

          Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago? I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.

          The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.

          Thanks,
          Aaron Torres

          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
          >
          > Aaron
          >
          > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about this.
          >
          >
          > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
          > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the same
          > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
          > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR matches?
          >
          > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
          >
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          > sallfertorr@... writes:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello, Mike
          >
          > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent Common
          > Ancestor appearances.
          >
          > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
          > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them (different
          > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
          > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the individuals
          > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
          >
          > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Aaron Torres
          >
          > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
          > manth43470@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Aaron,
          > >
          > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
          > > there such a word).
          > >
          > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled. The
          > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
          > >
          > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
          > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
          > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
          > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
          > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
          > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
          > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
          > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
          > >
          > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
          > >
          > > Mike
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          > > sallfertorr@ writes:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello, Mike
          > >
          > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of M223,
          > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
          > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Aaron Torres
          > >
          > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
          > > manth43470@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi Aaron,
          > > >
          > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and I
          >
          > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
          > > importantly,
          > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
          > > >
          > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
          > > >
          > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hello, Brian
          > > >
          > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
          > Then
          > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > > Aaron Torres
          > > >
          > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) , Brian
          > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
          > for
          > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
          > > descrepency.
          > > > When, an explaination is in order.
          > > > > ÃÆ'‚ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree review
          > will
          > > > correctÃÆ'‚ or publish it.
          > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'‚ I simply do not understand it. I am not at my
          > mental
          > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
          > null.
          > > It
          > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
          > > sub-clade
          > > > location.)
          > > > > ÃÆ'‚ I am glad we getÃÆ'‚ allele counts on every DYS tested. I
          > also,
          > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'‚ on my M223
          > certificate.
          > > Although,
          > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'‚ DYS 19/394ÃÆ'‚
          > does
          > > not equal
          > > > zero alleles.
          > > > > ÃÆ'‚ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I simply
          > know.
          > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
          > with
          > > 16
          > > > alleles.ÃÆ'‚
          > > > > IÃÆ'‚ know.ÃÆ'‚ I cannot explain it. That is an area. Where, I
          > rely on,
          > > FT
          > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i rely
          > on
          > > > y-search, to a point.
          > > > > ÃÆ'‚
          > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
          > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
          > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
          > Re:
          > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ÃÆ'‚
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å"write-inÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â campaign
          > to get them to do
          > > somethingÃÆ'¢â‚¬
          > > > ¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
          > > > >
          > > > > Cliff.
          > > > >
          > > > > From: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > [mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ] On
          > Behalf
          > > Of
          > > > Brian McCall
          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
          > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
          > Re:
          > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
          > > > >
          > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank on
          > > our
          > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
          > > allele
          > > > count. We are given the allele count.
          > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my 111marker
          > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele count
          > of
          > > 16.
          > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
          > be
          > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a null.
          > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
          > left
          > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna or
          > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or is
          > > left blank.
          > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
          > (If
          > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like to
          > > know
          > > > it.)
          > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the 111
          > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
          > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test completed
          > > and
          > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
          > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
          > > muation
          > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
          > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16 alleles;
          > > be
          > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
          > blank,
          > >
          > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
          > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to fix
          > > with
          > > > a notation.
          > > > > BD McCall
          > > > >
          > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
          > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
          > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
          > Re:
          > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
          > > > >
          > > > > BD,
          > > > >
          > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
          > > him/her/it
          > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
          > > > >
          > > > > Cliff.
          > > > >
          > > > > From: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > [mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ] On
          > Behalf
          > > Of
          > > > Brian McCall
          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
          > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
          > Re:
          > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
          > > > >
          > > > > Hello,Aaron
          > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS 717
          >
          > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If they
          > > have a
          > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
          > > allele
          > > > count goes from 17 and up.
          > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
          > > > > BD McCall
          > > > >
          > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
          > > > > To: ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) )
          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
          > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
          > > Z161,
          > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
          > > > >
          > > > > Hello, Dora
          > > > >
          > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that website
          > -
          > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
          > > > >
          > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will be
          > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
          > > names).
          > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > Aaron Torres
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
          > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
          > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) , Dora
          > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
          > ENTER
          > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Dora
          > > > > > -->
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >

        • sallfertorr
          Hi, Mike I agree FT DNA should warn members about the importance of making sure their matches share their terminal SNP s. People spend a lot of time looking
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, Mike

            I agree FT DNA should warn members about the importance of making sure their matches share their terminal SNP's. People spend a lot of time looking for MRCA's who never existed.

            Thanks,
            Aaron

            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
            >
            > Aaron,
            >
            > We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in
            > knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with
            > different surnames are related because FTDNA said we were matches. It would
            > appear that the only way we are related is in M223 thousands of years ago
            > instead of hundreds. Thank you for all your excellent work. We appreciate
            > it. We will move along to more fruitful areas of research.
            >
            > With highest regards,
            >
            > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
            >
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 6/1/2012 7:39:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            > sallfertorr@... writes:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Mike,
            >
            > Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group
            > does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you
            > on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago?
            > I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be
            > defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.
            >
            > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
            > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these
            > groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an
            > evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to
            > others in Cont2a.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Aaron Torres
            >
            > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
            > manth43470@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Aaron
            > >
            > > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about
            > this.
            > >
            > >
            > > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
            > > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the
            > same
            > > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
            > > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR
            > matches?
            > >
            > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            > > sallfertorr@ writes:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello, Mike
            > >
            > > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent
            > Common
            > > Ancestor appearances.
            > >
            > > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
            > > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them
            > (different
            > > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
            > > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the
            > individuals
            > > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
            > >
            > > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Aaron Torres
            > >
            > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
            > > manth43470@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Aaron,
            > > >
            > > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
            >
            > > > there such a word).
            > > >
            > > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled.
            > The
            > > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
            > > >
            > > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
            > > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
            > > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
            > > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
            > > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
            > > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
            > > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
            > > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
            > > >
            > > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
            > > >
            > > > Mike
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hello, Mike
            > > >
            > > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of
            > M223,
            > > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
            > > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > > Aaron Torres
            > > >
            > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ,
            > > > manth43470@ wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi Aaron,
            > > > >
            > > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and
            > I
            > >
            > > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
            > > > importantly,
            > > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
            > > > >
            > > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
            > > > >
            > > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hello, Brian
            > > > >
            > > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
            > > Then
            > > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > Aaron Torres
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            >
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Brian
            > > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
            > > for
            > > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
            > > > descrepency.
            > > > > When, an explaination is in order.
            > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree
            > review
            > > will
            > > > > correctÃÆ'Æ'‚ or publish it.
            > > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I simply do not understand it. I am
            > not at my
            > > mental
            > > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
            > > null.
            > > > It
            > > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
            > > > sub-clade
            > > > > location.)
            > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I am glad we getÃÆ'Æ'‚ allele counts on every
            > DYS tested. I
            > > also,
            > > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'Æ'‚ on my M223
            > > certificate.
            > > > Although,
            > > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ DYS
            > 19/394ÃÆ'Æ'‚
            > > does
            > > > not equal
            > > > > zero alleles.
            > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I
            > simply
            > > know.
            > > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
            > > with
            > > > 16
            > > > > alleles.ÃÆ'Æ'‚
            > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'‚ know.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I cannot explain it. That is an
            > area. Where, I
            > > rely on,
            > > > FT
            > > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i
            > rely
            > > on
            > > > > y-search, to a point.
            > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚
            > > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'Æ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'‚
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
            > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
            > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
            > > Re:
            > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…"write-inÃÆ'Æ'¢Ã
            > Æ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ campaign
            > > to get them to do
            > > > somethingÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬
            > > > > ÃÆ'‚¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Cliff.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
            > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
            > _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
            > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
            > _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
            > > Behalf
            > > > Of
            > > > > Brian McCall
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
            > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
            > > Re:
            > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank
            > on
            > > > our
            > > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
            > > > allele
            > > > > count. We are given the allele count.
            > > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my
            > 111marker
            > > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele
            > count
            > > of
            > > > 16.
            > > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
            > > be
            > > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a
            > null.
            > > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
            > > left
            > > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna
            > or
            > > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or
            > is
            > > > left blank.
            > > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
            > > (If
            > > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like
            > to
            > > > know
            > > > > it.)
            > > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the
            > 111
            > > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
            > > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test
            > completed
            > > > and
            > > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
            > > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
            > > > muation
            > > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
            > > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16
            > alleles;
            > > > be
            > > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
            > > blank,
            > > >
            > > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
            > > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to
            > fix
            > > > with
            > > > > a notation.
            > > > > > BD McCall
            > > > > >
            > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
            > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
            > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
            > > Re:
            > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > BD,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
            > > > him/her/it
            > > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Cliff.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
            > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
            > _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
            > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
            > _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
            > > Behalf
            > > > Of
            > > > > Brian McCall
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
            > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
            > > Re:
            > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hello,Aaron
            > > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS
            > 717
            > >
            > > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If
            > they
            > > > have a
            > > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
            > > > allele
            > > > > count goes from 17 and up.
            > > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
            > > > > > BD McCall
            > > > > >
            > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
            > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
            > > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
            > > > Z161,
            > > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hello, Dora
            > > > > >
            > > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that
            > website
            > > -
            > > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will
            > be
            > > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
            > > > names).
            > > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > > Aaron Torres
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
            > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
            > ) _
            > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
            > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
            > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
            > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Dora
            > > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
            > > ENTER
            > > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Dora
            > > > > > > -->
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Clifford Johnston
            Aaron, OK, so do we have a terminal SNP for I2b1-Continental 2a? If so, what is it? Cliff. From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Aaron,

              OK, so do we have a terminal SNP for I2b1-Continental 2a? If so, what is it?

              Cliff.

              From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sallfertorr
              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:49 PM
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...


              Hi, Mike

              I agree FT DNA should warn members about the importance of making sure their matches share their terminal SNP's. People spend a lot of time looking for MRCA's who never existed.

              Thanks,
              Aaron

              --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
              >
              > Aaron,
              >
              > We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in
              > knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with
              > different surnames are related because FTDNA said we were matches. It would
              > appear that the only way we are related is in M223 thousands of years ago
              > instead of hundreds. Thank you for all your excellent work. We appreciate
              > it. We will move along to more fruitful areas of research.
              >
              > With highest regards,
              >
              > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
              >
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 6/1/2012 7:39:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > sallfertorr@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike,
              >
              > Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group
              > does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you
              > on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago?
              > I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be
              > defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.
              >
              > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
              > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these
              > groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an
              > evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to
              > others in Cont2a.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Aaron Torres
              >
              > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
              > manth43470@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Aaron
              > >
              > > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about
              > this.
              > >
              > >
              > > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
              > > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the
              > same
              > > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
              > > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR
              > matches?
              > >
              > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > > sallfertorr@ writes:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello, Mike
              > >
              > > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent
              > Common
              > > Ancestor appearances.
              > >
              > > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
              > > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them
              > (different
              > > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
              > > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the
              > individuals
              > > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
              > >
              > > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Aaron Torres
              > >
              > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
              > > manth43470@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Aaron,
              > > >
              > > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
              >
              > > > there such a word).
              > > >
              > > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled.
              > The
              > > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
              > > >
              > > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
              > > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
              > > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
              > > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
              > > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
              > > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
              > > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
              > > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
              > > >
              > > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
              > > >
              > > > Mike
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hello, Mike
              > > >
              > > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of
              > M223,
              > > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
              > > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > > Aaron Torres
              > > >
              > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ,
              > > > manth43470@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Aaron,
              > > > >
              > > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and
              > I
              > >
              > > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
              > > > importantly,
              > > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
              > > > >
              > > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
              > > > >
              > > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello, Brian
              > > > >
              > > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
              > > Then
              > > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks,
              > > > > Aaron Torres
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              >
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Brian
              > > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
              > > for
              > > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
              > > > descrepency.
              > > > > When, an explaination is in order.
              > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree
              > review
              > > will
              > > > > correctÃÆ'Æ'‚ or publish it.
              > > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I simply do not understand it. I am
              > not at my
              > > mental
              > > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
              > > null.
              > > > It
              > > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
              > > > sub-clade
              > > > > location.)
              > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I am glad we getÃÆ'Æ'‚ allele counts on every
              > DYS tested. I
              > > also,
              > > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'Æ'‚ on my M223
              > > certificate.
              > > > Although,
              > > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ DYS
              > 19/394ÃÆ'Æ'‚
              > > does
              > > > not equal
              > > > > zero alleles.
              > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I
              > simply
              > > know.
              > > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
              > > with
              > > > 16
              > > > > alleles.ÃÆ'Æ'‚
              > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'‚ know.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I cannot explain it. That is an
              > area. Where, I
              > > rely on,
              > > > FT
              > > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i
              > rely
              > > on
              > > > > y-search, to a point.
              > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚
              > > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'Æ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'‚
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ________________________________
              > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
              > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
              > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
              > > Re:
              > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…"write-inÃÆ'Æ'¢Ã
              > Æ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ campaign
              > > to get them to do
              > > > somethingÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬
              > > > > ÃÆ'‚¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Cliff.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
              > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
              > _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
              > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
              > _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
              > > Behalf
              > > > Of
              > > > > Brian McCall
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
              > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
              > > Re:
              > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank
              > on
              > > > our
              > > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
              > > > allele
              > > > > count. We are given the allele count.
              > > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my
              > 111marker
              > > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele
              > count
              > > of
              > > > 16.
              > > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
              > > be
              > > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a
              > null.
              > > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
              > > left
              > > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna
              > or
              > > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or
              > is
              > > > left blank.
              > > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
              > > (If
              > > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like
              > to
              > > > know
              > > > > it.)
              > > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the
              > 111
              > > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
              > > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test
              > completed
              > > > and
              > > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
              > > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
              > > > muation
              > > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
              > > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16
              > alleles;
              > > > be
              > > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
              > > blank,
              > > >
              > > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
              > > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to
              > fix
              > > > with
              > > > > a notation.
              > > > > > BD McCall
              > > > > >
              > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
              > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
              > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
              > > Re:
              > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > BD,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
              > > > him/her/it
              > > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Cliff.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
              > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
              > _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
              > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
              > _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
              > > Behalf
              > > > Of
              > > > > Brian McCall
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
              > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
              > > Re:
              > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hello,Aaron
              > > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS
              > 717
              > >
              > > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If
              > they
              > > > have a
              > > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
              > > > allele
              > > > > count goes from 17 and up.
              > > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
              > > > > > BD McCall
              > > > > >
              > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
              > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
              > > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
              > > > Z161,
              > > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hello, Dora
              > > > > >
              > > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that
              > website
              > > -
              > > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will
              > be
              > > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
              > > > names).
              > > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks,
              > > > > > Aaron Torres
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
              > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
              > ) _
              > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
              > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
              > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
              > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Dora
              > > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
              > > ENTER
              > > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Dora
              > > > > > > -->
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • E. Harold Vannoy
              Aaron. Can you tell us more about the STR results criteria that was used to establish the two new Cont2a groups? Thanks, Harold Vannoy
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                Aaron.

                Can you tell us more about the "STR results" criteria that was used to establish the two new Cont2a groups?

                Thanks,

                Harold Vannoy



                On 6/1/2012 10:38 AM, sallfertorr wrote:
                 

                Mike,

                [SNIP]

                The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.

                Thanks,
                Aaron Torres





              • John E. Mellick
                Mike, Matching is a matter of degree. All of the matches that FTDNA gives you are your cousins to some extent. You are all surely I2b1, thus you all match. But
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                  Mike,

                  Matching is a matter of degree.  All of the matches that FTDNA gives you are your cousins to some extent.  You are all surely I2b1, thus you all match.

                  But there is another important degree.  You haven't said matching to how many markers and with how many mismatches.  I have three pages of 12 marker matches, but only about half of them are exact 12 of 12 matches.  Of those, I have 31 who are 25 marker matches, but most of those are with a genetic distance of two.  Finally, I have only 8 37-marker matches, and they are all same surname, known cousins.  So you see, matches can mean many things, depending on how you define them.

                  Also, you have to understand how the sub-group naming came about, before the latest SNPs were discovered.  Many years ago, Dr Ken Nordtvedt did a lot of research into the I haplotypes, as he was an I.  He began to see patterns, and he nick-named some of the groups according to where some of the oldest ancestors in each group were found to live.  Thats where the Cont, Isles, Dinaric, Scots, Roots, etc nicknames came from.  As he got more data, and saw more details he subdivided them, such as cont1, cont2 and cont3.  And then further into cont1a, cont1b, cont1c, etc.  He matched based on STRs, since there were no SNPs out to that extent.  He predicted that someday SNPs would be found to define those groups, and he was right.  Now, we see Aaron sometimes moving someone from a predicted group into a tested group, but Nordtvedt was correct in his methodology.  But again, you see how related is a relative term (no pun intended).

                  JohnM

                  At 02:48 PM 6/1/2012 +0000, you wrote:
                  Aaron
                  Thank you.  There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about this. 
                  However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1.  These two (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the same results.  Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2.  What are these sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR matches?
                  G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                   
                • Daniel Mcmindes
                  ok some patience and logic.  this is a very NEW science and evolving.  when i first had my dna done they totally messed up (herixxxx dna), and my sceptacism
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                    ok some patience and logic.  this is a very NEW science and evolving.  when i first had my dna done they totally messed up (herixxxx dna), and my sceptacism has been rolling forward since.  the scientific process is hypothesis, trial and error, and hopefully a more meaning conclusing for everyone in the end.  We, the current subjects of these studies, are making it possible to tell who someone is by finding a terminal (not death defying, but end of the line) marker so that we dont have to spend hundreds on tests.  its like the old days - your eyes are blue, wow that means xxxxx, but now its your snp is xxxx, WOW you are from xxxx. 
                     
                    its just not there yet, and every single person in the group that can help is making it less expensive for everyone else that will follow.  I can not tell you how many thousands i have spent on this process over 8 years.  I still dont match anyone that i feel fits my history and yet, i am willing to be part of the history for this effort.
                     
                    if my efforts get my lineage to the point where anyone can spend $29 instead of thousands and get a result that will nail thier lineage - i am all for it.  I also understand the people out there (because i have done my time in the bucket) that are tired of the process and spending money and not knowing the END results or understanding them when they get them.
                     
                    hang in there as you can - this process and science will get MUCH BETTER as we move forward. (disclaimer) i have no part in this process, i am just a willing participant, have had the ups and downs with profit making people, but really like what the researchers are doing.  the researchers are not making a profit at this.  companies yes, researchers no!  i am a scientist, an engineer, a father, and a subject.
                     
                    thanks for listening and i hope this does not fall on deaf ears.  daniel c mcmindes great grand parentage unknown.  and please forgive me if i have offended anyone.  my intentions are only the best - but these days... who knows.

                     
                  • Clifford Johnston
                    John, Aaah, the good old days, and I can remember when the genetic purists were calling Ken a “crank” and often worse as I read some rather scathing posts
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                      John,

                      Aaah, the good old days, and I can remember when the genetic purists were calling Ken a “crank” and often worse as I read some rather scathing posts elsewhere. Those of us who felt that he was on the right track kept the faith and saw Ken justified ☺ Ain’t life grand?!?

                      Cliff.

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John E. Mellick
                      Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 8:13 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...


                      Mike,

                      Matching is a matter of degree. All of the matches that FTDNA gives you are your cousins to some extent. You are all surely I2b1, thus you all match.

                      But there is another important degree. You haven't said matching to how many markers and with how many mismatches. I have three pages of 12 marker matches, but only about half of them are exact 12 of 12 matches. Of those, I have 31 who are 25 marker matches, but most of those are with a genetic distance of two. Finally, I have only 8 37-marker matches, and they are all same surname, known cousins. So you see, matches can mean many things, depending on how you define them.

                      Also, you have to understand how the sub-group naming came about, before the latest SNPs were discovered. Many years ago, Dr Ken Nordtvedt did a lot of research into the I haplotypes, as he was an I. He began to see patterns, and he nick-named some of the groups according to where some of the oldest ancestors in each group were found to live. Thats where the Cont, Isles, Dinaric, Scots, Roots, etc nicknames came from. As he got more data, and saw more details he subdivided them, such as cont1, cont2 and cont3. And then further into cont1a, cont1b, cont1c, etc. He matched based on STRs, since there were no SNPs out to that extent. He predicted that someday SNPs would be found to define those groups, and he was right. Now, we see Aaron sometimes moving someone from a predicted group into a tested group, but Nordtvedt was correct in his methodology. But again, you see how related is a relative term (no pun intended).

                      JohnM

                      At 02:48 PM 6/1/2012 +0000, you wrote:
                      Aaron
                      Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about this.
                      However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the same results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR matches?
                      G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                    • sallfertorr
                      Hi, Cliff Yes, the terminal SNP for Cont2a is currently Z76. By all standards we still have a lot of work to do (as Z76 is quite old...). Terminal, in this
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                        Hi, Cliff

                        Yes, the terminal SNP for Cont2a is currently Z76. By all standards we still have a lot of work to do (as Z76 is quite old...). Terminal, in this sense, is momentary. But for now, Z76 is already useful. If you are positive for Z76 but negative for downstream SNP's (Z78, P95, L1201), you can exclude from your matches anybody positive for those SNP's.

                        Hopefully, we'll be able to break the large Z76 group down in the near future with new, more downstream terminal SNP's.

                        Thanks,
                        Aaron Torres

                        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Clifford Johnston" <texasfalconer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Aaron,
                        >
                        > OK, so do we have a terminal SNP for I2b1-Continental 2a? If so, what is it?
                        >
                        > Cliff.
                        >
                        > From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sallfertorr
                        > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:49 PM
                        > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi, Mike
                        >
                        > I agree FT DNA should warn members about the importance of making sure their matches share their terminal SNP's. People spend a lot of time looking for MRCA's who never existed.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Aaron
                        >
                        > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Aaron,
                        > >
                        > > We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in
                        > > knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with
                        > > different surnames are related because FTDNA said we were matches. It would
                        > > appear that the only way we are related is in M223 thousands of years ago
                        > > instead of hundreds. Thank you for all your excellent work. We appreciate
                        > > it. We will move along to more fruitful areas of research.
                        > >
                        > > With highest regards,
                        > >
                        > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 6/1/2012 7:39:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Mike,
                        > >
                        > > Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group
                        > > does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you
                        > > on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago?
                        > > I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be
                        > > defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.
                        > >
                        > > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
                        > > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these
                        > > groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an
                        > > evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to
                        > > others in Cont2a.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > > Aaron Torres
                        > >
                        > > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
                        > > manth43470@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Aaron
                        > > >
                        > > > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about
                        > > this.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
                        > > > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the
                        > > same
                        > > > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
                        > > > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR
                        > > matches?
                        > > >
                        > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello, Mike
                        > > >
                        > > > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent
                        > > Common
                        > > > Ancestor appearances.
                        > > >
                        > > > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
                        > > > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them
                        > > (different
                        > > > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
                        > > > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the
                        > > individuals
                        > > > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
                        > > >
                        > > > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks,
                        > > > Aaron Torres
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
                        > > > manth43470@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Aaron,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
                        > >
                        > > > > there such a word).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled.
                        > > The
                        > > > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
                        > > > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
                        > > > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
                        > > > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
                        > > > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
                        > > > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
                        > > > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
                        > > > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mike
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello, Mike
                        > > > >
                        > > > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of
                        > > M223,
                        > > > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
                        > > > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > Aaron Torres
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ,
                        > > > > manth43470@ wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hi Aaron,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and
                        > > I
                        > > >
                        > > > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
                        > > > > importantly,
                        > > > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hello, Brian
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
                        > > > Then
                        > > > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > Aaron Torres
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > >
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Brian
                        > > > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
                        > > > for
                        > > > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
                        > > > > descrepency.
                        > > > > > When, an explaination is in order.
                        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree
                        > > review
                        > > > will
                        > > > > > correctÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ or publish it.
                        > > > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I simply do not understand it. I am
                        > > not at my
                        > > > mental
                        > > > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
                        > > > null.
                        > > > > It
                        > > > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
                        > > > > sub-clade
                        > > > > > location.)
                        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I am glad we getÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ allele counts on every
                        > > DYS tested. I
                        > > > also,
                        > > > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ on my M223
                        > > > certificate.
                        > > > > Although,
                        > > > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ DYS
                        > > 19/394ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                        > > > does
                        > > > > not equal
                        > > > > > zero alleles.
                        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I
                        > > simply
                        > > > know.
                        > > > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
                        > > > with
                        > > > > 16
                        > > > > > alleles.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                        > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ know.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I cannot explain it. That is an
                        > > area. Where, I
                        > > > rely on,
                        > > > > FT
                        > > > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i
                        > > rely
                        > > > on
                        > > > > > y-search, to a point.
                        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                        > > > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ________________________________
                        > > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
                        > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
                        > > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                        > > > Re:
                        > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…"write-inÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
                        > > Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ campaign
                        > > > to get them to do
                        > > > > somethingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬
                        > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Cliff.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                        > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                        > > _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                        > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                        > > _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
                        > > > Behalf
                        > > > > Of
                        > > > > > Brian McCall
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
                        > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                        > > > Re:
                        > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank
                        > > on
                        > > > > our
                        > > > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
                        > > > > allele
                        > > > > > count. We are given the allele count.
                        > > > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my
                        > > 111marker
                        > > > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele
                        > > count
                        > > > of
                        > > > > 16.
                        > > > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
                        > > > be
                        > > > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a
                        > > null.
                        > > > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
                        > > > left
                        > > > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna
                        > > or
                        > > > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or
                        > > is
                        > > > > left blank.
                        > > > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
                        > > > (If
                        > > > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like
                        > > to
                        > > > > know
                        > > > > > it.)
                        > > > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the
                        > > 111
                        > > > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
                        > > > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test
                        > > completed
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
                        > > > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
                        > > > > muation
                        > > > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
                        > > > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16
                        > > alleles;
                        > > > > be
                        > > > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
                        > > > blank,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
                        > > > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to
                        > > fix
                        > > > > with
                        > > > > > a notation.
                        > > > > > > BD McCall
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
                        > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
                        > > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                        > > > Re:
                        > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > BD,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
                        > > > > him/her/it
                        > > > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Cliff.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                        > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                        > > _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                        > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                        > > _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
                        > > > Behalf
                        > > > > Of
                        > > > > > Brian McCall
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
                        > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                        > > > Re:
                        > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hello,Aaron
                        > > > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS
                        > > 717
                        > > >
                        > > > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If
                        > > they
                        > > > > have a
                        > > > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
                        > > > > allele
                        > > > > > count goes from 17 and up.
                        > > > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
                        > > > > > > BD McCall
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
                        > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
                        > > > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
                        > > > > Z161,
                        > > > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hello, Dora
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that
                        > > website
                        > > > -
                        > > > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will
                        > > be
                        > > > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
                        > > > > names).
                        > > > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > > Aaron Torres
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                        > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                        > > ) _
                        > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                        > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                        > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                        > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Dora
                        > > > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
                        > > > ENTER
                        > > > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Dora
                        > > > > > > > -->
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • sallfertorr
                        Hello, Harold Cont2a (the large group) is what we can call the generic Cont2a. Cont2a - group 1 have YCAII=17,21. Cont2a - group 2 is something I m still
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                          Hello, Harold

                          Cont2a (the large group) is what we can call the generic Cont2a.

                          Cont2a - group 1 have YCAII=17,21.

                          Cont2a - group 2 is something I'm still working on with Ken Nordtvedt. So others may be included and the group may be divided further in the near future. Bear with us.

                          Thanks,
                          Aaron Torres

                          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "E. Harold Vannoy" <ehvdna@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Aaron.
                          >
                          > Can you tell us more about the "STR results" criteria that was used to
                          > establish the two new Cont2a groups?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Harold Vannoy
                          >
                          >
                          > On 6/1/2012 10:38 AM, sallfertorr wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mike,
                          > >
                          > > [SNIP]
                          > >
                          > > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
                          > > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will
                          > > differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have
                          > > gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old
                          > > and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > > Aaron Torres
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Gmail
                          Well said Daniel! On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:26:19 +1200, Daniel Mcmindes ... -- Using Opera s revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 1, 2012
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                            Well said Daniel!

                            On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:26:19 +1200, Daniel Mcmindes
                            <mcmindes@...> wrote:

                            > ok some patience and logic. this is a very NEW science and evolving.
                            > when i first had my dna done they totally messed up (herixxxx dna), and
                            > my sceptacism has been rolling forward since. the scientific process is
                            > hypothesis, trial and error, and hopefully a more meaning conclusing for
                            > everyone in the end. We, the current subjects of these studies, are
                            > making it possible to tell who someone is by finding a terminal (not
                            > death defying, but end of the line) marker so that we dont have to spend
                            > hundreds on tests. its like the old days - your eyes are blue, wow that
                            > means xxxxx, but now its your snp is xxxx, WOW you are from xxxx. its
                            > just not there yet, and every single person in the group that can help
                            > is making it less expensive for everyone else that will follow. I can
                            > not tell you how many thousands i have spent on this process over 8
                            > years. I still dont match anyone that i feel fits my history and yet, i
                            > am willing to be part of the history for this effort.
                            > if my efforts get my lineage to the point where anyone can spend $29
                            > instead of thousands and get a result that will nail thier lineage - i
                            > am all for it. I also understand the people out there (because i have
                            > done my time in the bucket) that are tired of the process and spending
                            > money and not knowing the END results or understanding them when they
                            > get them.
                            > hang in there as you can - this process and science will get MUCH
                            > BETTER as we move forward. (disclaimer) i have no part in this process,
                            > i am just a willing participant, have had the ups and downs with profit
                            > making people, but really like what the researchers are doing. the
                            > researchers are not making a profit at this. companies yes, researchers
                            > no! i am a scientist, an engineer, a father, and a subject.
                            > thanks for listening and i hope this does not fall on deaf ears.
                            > daniel c mcmindes great grand parentage unknown. and please forgive me
                            > if i have offended anyone. my intentions are only the best - but these
                            > days... who knows.


                            --
                            Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                          • Clifford Johnston
                            Aaron, What are you using to define Cont2a (the large group)? Our Poldean group has YCA II a/b as 19/21. Cliff. From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 2, 2012
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                              Aaron,

                              What are you using to define Cont2a (the large group)? Our Poldean group
                              has YCA II a/b as 19/21.

                              Cliff.

                              From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              sallfertorr
                              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:24 PM
                              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76,
                              L1198...

                               
                              Hello, Harold

                              Cont2a (the large group) is what we can call the generic Cont2a.

                              Cont2a - group 1 have YCAII=17,21.

                              Cont2a - group 2 is something I'm still working on with Ken Nordtvedt. So
                              others may be included and the group may be divided further in the near
                              future. Bear with us.

                              Thanks,
                              Aaron Torres

                              --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "E. Harold Vannoy" <ehvdna@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Aaron.
                              >
                              > Can you tell us more about the "STR results" criteria that was used to
                              > establish the two new Cont2a groups?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Harold Vannoy
                              >
                              >
                              > On 6/1/2012 10:38 AM, sallfertorr wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Mike,
                              > >
                              > > [SNIP]
                              > >
                              > > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
                              > > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will
                              > > differentiate these groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have
                              > > gone down an evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old
                              > > and only remotely related to others in Cont2a.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > Aaron Torres
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Clifford Johnston
                              Aaron, Thank you. It’s great to see the progress you/we are making! ☺ Cliff. From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 2, 2012
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                                Aaron,

                                Thank you. It’s great to see the progress you/we are making! ☺

                                Cliff.

                                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sallfertorr
                                Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:21 PM
                                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...


                                Hi, Cliff

                                Yes, the terminal SNP for Cont2a is currently Z76. By all standards we still have a lot of work to do (as Z76 is quite old...). Terminal, in this sense, is momentary. But for now, Z76 is already useful. If you are positive for Z76 but negative for downstream SNP's (Z78, P95, L1201), you can exclude from your matches anybody positive for those SNP's.

                                Hopefully, we'll be able to break the large Z76 group down in the near future with new, more downstream terminal SNP's.

                                Thanks,
                                Aaron Torres

                                --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Clifford Johnston" <texasfalconer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Aaron,
                                >
                                > OK, so do we have a terminal SNP for I2b1-Continental 2a? If so, what is it?
                                >
                                > Cliff.
                                >
                                > From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sallfertorr
                                > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:49 PM
                                > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re: Z161, Z76, L1198...
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi, Mike
                                >
                                > I agree FT DNA should warn members about the importance of making sure their matches share their terminal SNP's. People spend a lot of time looking for MRCA's who never existed.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Aaron
                                >
                                > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Aaron,
                                > >
                                > > We do believe the SNP evidence and are very glad to have this advance in
                                > > knowledge, but we have spent years researching how a few dozen of us with
                                > > different surnames are related because FTDNA said we were matches. It would
                                > > appear that the only way we are related is in M223 thousands of years ago
                                > > instead of hundreds. Thank you for all your excellent work. We appreciate
                                > > it. We will move along to more fruitful areas of research.
                                > >
                                > > With highest regards,
                                > >
                                > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > In a message dated 6/1/2012 7:39:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Mike,
                                > >
                                > > Can you expand on what you mean by "incredulity"? Do you mean your group
                                > > does not believe that testing positive for different terminal SNP's puts you
                                > > on different areas of the tree, so your MRCA lived thousands of years ago?
                                > > I don't know how to respond to that, other than such a belief would be
                                > > defying the laws of evolution. SNP's are much more stable than STR's.
                                > >
                                > > The two new groups within Cont2a are currently solely based on STR
                                > > results. But we believe SNP's will arise eventually that will differentiate these
                                > > groups from other Cont2a groups. These groups have gone down an
                                > > evolutionary path that leads us to believe they are old and only remotely related to
                                > > others in Cont2a.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > > Aaron Torres
                                > >
                                > > --- In _I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                > > manth43470@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Aaron
                                > > >
                                > > > Thank you. There is a lot incredulity in my FTDNA Match group about
                                > > this.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > However, I have two matches, which are in Cont2a Group 1. These two
                                > > > (#157321 & #123792) seem to have taken the same tests as I have with the
                                > > same
                                > > > results. Also, I notice there is a Cont2a Group 2. What are these
                                > > > sub-sub-groups and would these two people be SNP matches as well as STR
                                > > matches?
                                > > >
                                > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 1:37:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello, Mike
                                > > >
                                > > > No, because convergence is responsible for many "ghost" Most Recent
                                > > Common
                                > > > Ancestor appearances.
                                > > >
                                > > > You should make sure these individuals all test for the terminal SNP's
                                > > > recommended to their subgroups. In case they are positive for them
                                > > (different
                                > > > than yours), you should discard them as matches as their MRCA with you
                                > > > lived many thousands of years ago. You should also make sure the
                                > > individuals
                                > > > classified as Cont2a match your terminal SNP (Z76) as well.
                                > > >
                                > > > You can already discard kit# 17681. He's positive for Z79.
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks,
                                > > > Aaron Torres
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In __I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ,
                                > > > manth43470@ wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Aaron,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thank you. That helped to clear a little clutter from my haplopath (is
                                > >
                                > > > > there such a word).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Some of the guys I'm working with on the FTDNA Matches are puzzled.
                                > > The
                                > > > > ones who have joined the M223 Project are in a variety of sub-groups:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Kit #80999=Roots Unknown;
                                > > > > Kit #18187=Cont2a;
                                > > > > Kit #32980=Cont2a;
                                > > > > Kit #157321=Cont2a Grp 1;
                                > > > > Kit #123792=Cont2a, Grp 1;
                                > > > > Kit #125113=Cont1-X or Cont1;
                                > > > > Kit #2238=Cont1-X or Cont1;
                                > > > > Kit #17681=Cont1c.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Shouldn't we all be in the same sub-group?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Mike
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > In a message dated 5/31/2012 6:41:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hello, Mike
                                > > > >
                                > > > > L380 is an unstable SNP that mutates randomly at various points of
                                > > M223,
                                > > > > so we can't count on it for phylogeny. Z186 is equivalent to M223 or
                                > > > > upstream from it, so not really useful to us either.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks,
                                > > > > Aaron Torres
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In ___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ,
                                > > > > manth43470@ wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hi Aaron,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I have been combing through the last six months of our material, and
                                > > I
                                > > >
                                > > > > > realized that I don't know the final position of L380, and more
                                > > > > importantly,
                                > > > > > Z186. For point of reference, I'm L380-, and both L801+ & Z186+.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Cont2a, Kit #18187
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > In a message dated 5/29/2012 4:27:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                > > > > > sallfertorr@ writes:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hello, Brian
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > While FT DNA corrects the issue you should leave your DYS717 as 17.
                                > > > Then
                                > > > > > fix it once they make the 16 value available.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thanks,
                                > > > > > Aaron Torres
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > >
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Brian
                                > > > > > McCall <mccallbrian568@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I know. I do not fully understand it. FT Dna provides the y-search
                                > > > for
                                > > > > > customers. An explaination is normally, given. When, there is a
                                > > > > descrepency.
                                > > > > > When, an explaination is in order.
                                > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ It is easy to miss minor detail. Maybe, the ycc tree
                                > > review
                                > > > will
                                > > > > > correctÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ or publish it.
                                > > > > > > At this point,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I simply do not understand it. I am
                                > > not at my
                                > > > mental
                                > > > > > best, right now. ( off the top of head. it seems DYS# 717=16, as a
                                > > > null.
                                > > > > It
                                > > > > > will be an snp location. It will divide I2b1/M223. it could be a
                                > > > > sub-clade
                                > > > > > location.)
                                > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I am glad we getÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ allele counts on every
                                > > DYS tested. I
                                > > > also,
                                > > > > > understand the no value(null), at DYS 19/394,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ on my M223
                                > > > certificate.
                                > > > > Although,
                                > > > > > the we all, have an allele count, at DYS 19/394.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ DYS
                                > > 19/394ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                                > > > does
                                > > > > not equal
                                > > > > > zero alleles.
                                > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I simply do not understand the DYS 717 descrepency. I
                                > > simply
                                > > > know.
                                > > > > > There must be a reason y-search will not allow DYS#717 to be listed
                                > > > with
                                > > > > 16
                                > > > > > alleles.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                                > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ know.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I cannot explain it. That is an
                                > > area. Where, I
                                > > > rely on,
                                > > > > FT
                                > > > > > Dna, Dr. Krahn, and the project administrators. A point, where i
                                > > rely
                                > > > on
                                > > > > > y-search, to a point.
                                > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                                > > > > > > BD McCallÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ________________________________
                                > > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
                                > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:52 PM
                                > > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                                > > > Re:
                                > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > We could start a ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…"write-inÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
                                > > Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ campaign
                                > > > to get them to do
                                > > > > somethingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬
                                > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ The current option seems ludicrous to me.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Cliff.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                                > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                                > > _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                                > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                                > > _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
                                > > > Behalf
                                > > > > Of
                                > > > > > Brian McCall
                                > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 PM
                                > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                                > > > Re:
                                > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Well, when we tested positive for M223. DYS#19/394 is left blank
                                > > on
                                > > > > our
                                > > > > > certificate. Where, we are told it is a null. But, it still has an
                                > > > > allele
                                > > > > > count. We are given the allele count.
                                > > > > > > DYS #717 is listed on panel 5 as the 75th DYS listed on my
                                > > 111marker
                                > > > > > results. But, it does not note DYS#717 is a null with an allele
                                > > count
                                > > > of
                                > > > > 16.
                                > > > > > > Y-search leads me to believe DYS#717 with a 16 allele count should
                                > > > be
                                > > > > > listed as a null. The choice is to leave it blank or list it as a
                                > > null.
                                > > > > > > I did not see any notation suggesting DYS#717 with 16 alleles be
                                > > > left
                                > > > > > blank or listed as a null. I have not noticed a notation at FT Dna
                                > > or
                                > > > > > y-search.The FT Dna 111marker list simply notes. If it says zero or
                                > > is
                                > > > > left blank.
                                > > > > > It is a null. DYS#717 with 16 alleles is not left blank on the list.
                                > > > (If
                                > > > > > it has 16 alleles. I like to know it. But, if it is a null. I like
                                > > to
                                > > > > know
                                > > > > > it.)
                                > > > > > > FT Dna does say mutation rates for the 111 marker test, and the
                                > > 111
                                > > > > > marker test is not completely studied, yet.
                                > > > > > > It has been that way. Since, I first got my 111marker test
                                > > completed
                                > > > > and
                                > > > > > list my markers on y-search.( the markers I was able to list).
                                > > > > > > I realize we are still, examining STR/DYS markers, new snps and
                                > > > > muation
                                > > > > > rates, etc, out to 111 markers.
                                > > > > > > But, y-search has always seemed to suggest DYS #717 with 16
                                > > alleles;
                                > > > > be
                                > > > > > listed as a null. I mean 16 is one less than 17. The listing goes
                                > > > blank,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > null, 17, 18, 19, -.
                                > > > > > > If DYS#717with 16 allelea is a null. It is a simple problem to
                                > > fix
                                > > > > with
                                > > > > > a notation.
                                > > > > > > BD McCall
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@>
                                > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:52 PM
                                > > > > > > Subject: RE: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                                > > > Re:
                                > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > BD,
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Sounds like time to contact that site administrator and tell
                                > > > > him/her/it
                                > > > > > [being politically correct here ;-)] that a change needs to be made.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Cliff.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                                > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                                > > _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > [mailto:____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                                > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) )
                                > > _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) ] On
                                > > > Behalf
                                > > > > Of
                                > > > > > Brian McCall
                                > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:34 PM
                                > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > > Subject: Re: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223]
                                > > > Re:
                                > > > > > Z161, Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hello,Aaron
                                > > > > > > I just checked my y search. i hadnot been on it, in a while. DYS
                                > > 717
                                > > >
                                > > > > > cannot be inserted as 16. If the customer uploads to y search. If
                                > > they
                                > > > > have a
                                > > > > > DYS 717 of 16. They must leave it blank of insert it as a Null. The
                                > > > > allele
                                > > > > > count goes from 17 and up.
                                > > > > > > Should DYS 717=16 be inserted into the y search as a null?
                                > > > > > > BD McCall
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From: sallfertorr <sallfertorr@>
                                > > > > > > To: ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) )
                                > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:24 AM
                                > > > > > > Subject: FTDNA 83425 SNP matches at ySearch (WAS Re: [I-M223] Re:
                                > > > > Z161,
                                > > > > > Z76, L1198, L1228, L1229: major developments - important!!!)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hello, Dora
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > No, not currently. FT DNA does not put much effort into that
                                > > website
                                > > > -
                                > > > > > remember not even 111 markers were added yet.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Once FT DNA updates its M223 tree, maybe the new terminology will
                                > > be
                                > > > > > added to ysearch as well (so SNP tests would be reflected in branch
                                > > > > names).
                                > > > > > But I wouldn't bet on it.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thanks,
                                > > > > > > Aaron Torres
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In ____I-M223@yahoogroups.com_
                                > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _ (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com)
                                > > ) _
                                > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) _
                                > > > > (mailto:___I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) _
                                > > > (mailto:__I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com) _
                                > > (mailto:_I-M223@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com) ) ) ) , Dora
                                > > > > > Smith <tiggernut24@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Is there a way to search Y Search for SNPs? Is there a way to
                                > > > ENTER
                                > > > > > > > SNPs for your entry, other than in the notes?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Dora
                                > > > > > > > -->
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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