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Re: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)

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  • Wayne Roberts
    Stephen, You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has
    Message 1 of 12 , May 22 9:01 PM
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      Stephen,
       
      You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
       
      Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
       
      Wayne
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
      Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)

       

      Dear All,

      Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:

      "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+

      Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."

      Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)

      ---------------------------------------------------

      This is an added piece of information concerning M284

      Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.

      Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.

      Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.

      It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.

      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dora,
      >
      > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
      >
      >
      > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
      > >
      > > Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it.
      > >
      > > Dora
      > >
      > > From: stephenctimmis
      > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
      > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
      > >
      > >
      > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
      > >
      > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
      > > >
      > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
      > > >
      > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
      > > >
      > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
      > > >
      > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
      > > >
      > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
      > > >
      > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
      > > >
      > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • stephenctimmis
      Thanks, Wayne. Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle. I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out
      Message 2 of 12 , May 23 4:54 AM
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        Thanks, Wayne.

        Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.

        I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.

        Steve Timmis, Oxford UK

        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:
        >
        > Stephen,
        >
        > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
        >
        > Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
        >
        > Wayne
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: stephenctimmis
        > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
        > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear All,
        >
        > Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:
        >
        > "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
        >
        > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
        >
        > Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------------
        >
        > This is an added piece of information concerning M284
        >
        > Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
        >
        > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.
        >
        > Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.
        >
        > It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
        >
        > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Dora,
        > >
        > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
        > > >
        > > > Dora
        > > >
        > > > From: stephenctimmis
        > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
        > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
        > > >
        > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
        > > > >
        > > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
        > > > >
        > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
        > > > >
        > > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
        > > > >
        > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
        > > > >
        > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
        > > > >
        > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
        > > > >
        > > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Dora Smith
        I don’t think DYS 568 changes very often. My haplogroup I1, DF29- (old sector) brother has DYS 568 = 10, when normally it’s 11. He belongs to a 1700
        Message 3 of 12 , May 25 1:59 PM
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          I don’t think DYS 568 changes very often.  My haplogroup I1, DF29- (old sector) brother has DYS 568 = 10, when normally it’s 11.   He belongs to a 1700 year old cluster, most of whom have it equal 11, but all of the Scottish families including ours have 10, and they also have a much smaller amount of genetic distance between them than do the rest of the group.  
           
          Dora
           
          Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:54 AM
          Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
           
           

          Thanks, Wayne.

          Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.

          I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.

          Steve Timmis, Oxford UK

          --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          Stephen,
          >
          > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7
          clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
          >
          > Aaron might
          consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
          >
          > Wayne
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: stephenctimmis
          > To:
          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
          > Subject: [I-M223] Re:
          M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear All,
          >
          > Ken has been kind enough to answer my
          Enquiry, and says the following:
          >
          > "My database has 6 M223+ with
          568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
          >
          > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is
          older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
          >
          >
          Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          This is an added piece of information concerning M284
          >
          > Isles Eng
          = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
          >
          > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900
          years before Present = 100CE.
          >
          > Isles Scot = 1500 years before
          present = 500CE.
          >
          > It is also almost certainly true that all
          M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
          >
          > --- In
          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Dora,
          > >
          > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall
          make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In
          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the
          files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
          > > >
          > > > Dora
          > > >
          > > > From: stephenctimmis
          > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49
          PM
          > > > To:
          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7
          (seven)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I forgot to
          mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
          > > >
          > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis"
          wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my
          kit number is 127642.
          > > > >
          > > > > I have
          uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
          > > > >
          > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the
          following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
          > > > >
          > > > > 1)Because the
          normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
          > > > >
          > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles
          English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
          > > > >
          > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all
          L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
          > > > >
          > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the
          568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
          > > > >
          > > > > What are
          the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >

        • darkdarkwing
          Hi Wayne and Stephen, I requested the L126 test today. I am awaiting results for the rest of my Y STR 111. I am also awaiting the results of the L1195 test.
          Message 4 of 12 , May 29 5:36 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Wayne and Stephen,

            I requested the L126 test today. I am awaiting results for the rest of my Y STR 111. I am also awaiting the results of the L1195 test.

            Kind regards,
            Don
            Kit: 273350

            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" <stephen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks, Wayne.
            >
            > Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.
            >
            > I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.
            >
            > Steve Timmis, Oxford UK
            >
            > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Stephen,
            > >
            > > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
            > >
            > > Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
            > >
            > > Wayne
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: stephenctimmis
            > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
            > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Dear All,
            > >
            > > Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:
            > >
            > > "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
            > >
            > > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
            > >
            > > Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > This is an added piece of information concerning M284
            > >
            > > Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
            > >
            > > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.
            > >
            > > Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.
            > >
            > > It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
            > >
            > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Dora,
            > > >
            > > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
            > > > >
            > > > > Dora
            > > > >
            > > > > From: stephenctimmis
            > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
            > > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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