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IslesIrish with question re results

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  • bschroeder0401
    Hello, Our family s Y-DNA test (kit # 183762) is now showing up in the category IslesIrish. I m hoping someone can help this lay person/genealogist understand
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 28, 2013
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      Hello,
      Our family's Y-DNA test (kit # 183762) is now showing up in the category IslesIrish. I'm hoping someone can help this lay person/genealogist understand why none of the five other individuals in the IslesIrish category who list their earliest known ancestor as a McGinnis (various spellings)have been reported by FTDNA as matches for us. We have had no surname matches reported. In fact, none of the others in the IslesIrish group of whatever surname has been reported as a match. Can anyone explain?
      Thanks,
      bschroeder
    • stephenctimmis
      Hi there In order to be classed as a match for another person in the FTDNA database you have to have a set of DYS markers that is no more than 2 or 3 steps
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 28, 2013
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        Hi there

        In order to be classed as a match for another person in the FTDNA database you have to have a set of DYS markers that is no more than 2 or 3 steps from that of the other person to be considered a close match. In the entire databas FDNA can only find 3 natches for me, and one of those is 5 steps at 67 Markers. Such a match suggests that they are not a close relative of mine in the last 15 generations at least.

        The Scots/Irish "Mac" names are based on the idea of being the Children of a certain patriach. This means people share a name based, not on strict biology, but on the basis of close friendship and mutual assistance. Therefore a similar surname may not produce a match anyway. This will be even more true of Trade names like Smith or Gow - or place names where people are named for their town of origin.

        So...Although a study of the DYS marlers of your haplotype, coupled with knowledge of SNP tests can put a person into a broad category, such as Isles Irish - so far these broad categories can be dated back to about 500CE. This means all Isles Irish had a common ancestor alive in 500CE, but you have slowly diverged from each other over time, diverged enough to cast doubt on the immediacy of your ancestry, but a common ancestry at some point is probably certain.

        I hope this helps - I hope others can add points I have missed or explain better.

        Thanks for the question.

        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "bschroeder0401" <schroeder.beth@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        > Our family's Y-DNA test (kit # 183762) is now showing up in the category IslesIrish. I'm hoping someone can help this lay person/genealogist understand why none of the five other individuals in the IslesIrish category who list their earliest known ancestor as a McGinnis (various spellings)have been reported by FTDNA as matches for us. We have had no surname matches reported. In fact, none of the others in the IslesIrish group of whatever surname has been reported as a match. Can anyone explain?
        > Thanks,
        > bschroeder
        >
      • stephenctimmis
        I have thought of something else....Sorry. The haplotypes of people differ from each other because of genetic mutation. Statisticians take vast amounts of
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 28, 2013
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          I have thought of something else....Sorry.

          The haplotypes of people differ from each other because of genetic mutation. Statisticians take vast amounts of data, number crunch it and come up with estimates of how often mutations take place. Is it every 100 years, 500 years or 1000 years - It varies from DYS marker to DYS marker.

          Although they are very talented people, their estimates of various mutation rates are just that, ESTIMATES. Also new information can lead to a complete revision of the estimates based on new calculations involving extra data.

          Having said all that you have to imagine an unlikely scenario to illustrate a point. Imagina a father has two sons. By pure chance the eldest son has 3 mutations of his haplotype compared to his father. (Unlikely, I know). The second son, by a similar freak chance, has 3 different mutations from his father. (The odds of this happening twice are so astronomically high I doubt any statistician would consider the possibility.)

          If the haplotypes of the Father and the two sons were given to FTDNA, then the two sons would be listed as being possible relatives of their Father at some point in the past 15 generations. The two sons (6 markers apart from each other) would be listed as unlikely to be in anyway related in recent history.

          Like I said the example is extremely unlikely, and is listed to be illustrative only. I hope it shows that the best efforts of FTDNA and the statisticians can only be used as a fair guide, and an open mind must be maintained while we wait for new data and new techniques to broaden our understanding, and so make our relatives more easy to find, and with greater precision.

          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "bschroeder0401" <schroeder.beth@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          > Our family's Y-DNA test (kit # 183762) is now showing up in the category IslesIrish. I'm hoping someone can help this lay person/genealogist understand why none of the five other individuals in the IslesIrish category who list their earliest known ancestor as a McGinnis (various spellings)have been reported by FTDNA as matches for us. We have had no surname matches reported. In fact, none of the others in the IslesIrish group of whatever surname has been reported as a match. Can anyone explain?
          > Thanks,
          > bschroeder
          >
        • Wayne Roberts
          Hello Beth and thanks Stephen for your contribution. I m not sure why your family McGinnis Y-DNA does not show matches to any of the other McGinnis members in
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 29, 2013
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            Hello Beth and thanks Stephen for your contribution.
             
            I'm not sure why your family McGinnis Y-DNA does not show matches to any of the other McGinnis members in Isles Irish. You may have to pose this question to FTDNA.
             
            I did look at your Y-DNA matches and those of each of the others. For some reason you have few matches across 12, 25 and 37 markers while most of the others have between 200 and 500 matches across all marker levels. You all have some matches in common including John Desmond Andrew McManus also in Isles Irish. It is strange when he matches all McGinnis variants but not all McGinnis match each other.
             
            My guess is it comes down to certain markers where you have a mutation one or two steps lower than the mode for the Isles Irish clade. You may find expanding the markers from 37 to 67 or 111 might draw you closer. It is hard to predict. Some people find a marker in the 37 to 67 range or 67 to 111 range that really tags their Y-DNA ancestral line as the mutation is quite specific to their line in a clade. We have seen this recently with members that have got results back for 111 markers. Keep an eye out for FTDNA's Fathers Day Y-DNA upgrade sale in June.
             
            Regards
            Wayne Roberts
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:17 AM
            Subject: [I-M223] IslesIrish with question re results

             

            Hello,
            Our family's Y-DNA test (kit # 183762) is now showing up in the category IslesIrish. I'm hoping someone can help this lay person/genealogist understand why none of the five other individuals in the IslesIrish category who list their earliest known ancestor as a McGinnis (various spellings)have been reported by FTDNA as matches for us. We have had no surname matches reported. In fact, none of the others in the IslesIrish group of whatever surname has been reported as a match. Can anyone explain?
            Thanks,
            bschroeder

          • Rebecca Bryant
            We have  8-10 Bryants in the project. All are genealogically proven to be related within 6-8 generations. Some do not show up as matches for each other
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 30, 2013
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              We have  8-10 Bryants in the project. All are genealogically proven to be related within 6-8 generations. Some do not show up as matches for each other because they have more mutations than allowed by FTDNA algorithms. I know there are other family DNA projects  reporting a higher mutation rate than incorporated into algorithms. Rebecca
            • stephenctimmis
              Hi rebecca I managed to count 7 Bryants in the Roots 2b section. If you have proof that they are all related within 6-8 generations, that is very interesting,
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 30, 2013
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                Hi rebecca

                I managed to count 7 Bryants in the Roots 2b section. If you have proof that they are all related within 6-8 generations, that is very interesting, and shows that my invented illustration maybe not completely outrageous.

                --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Bryant <rebbry49@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > We
                > have  8-10 Bryants in the project. All are genealogically proven to be
                > related within 6-8 generations. Some do not show up as matches for each
                > other because they have more mutations than allowed by FTDNA algorithms.
                > I know there are other family DNA projects  reporting a higher mutation
                > rate than incorporated into algorithms. Rebecca
                >
              • Rebecca Bryant
                Stephen, If you are interested in more details, you can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/bryantsofrockislandcreek/dna-results Rebecca
                Message 7 of 10 , May 1, 2013
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                  Stephen,
                  If you are interested in more details, you can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/bryantsofrockislandcreek/dna-results

                  Rebecca

                • Dora Smith
                  I don’t know what was the original question, or the group in question. Certainly it isn’t highly unusual to be able to track a family group across more
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 1, 2013
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                    I don’t know what was the original question, or the group in question.   Certainly it isn’t highly unusual to be able to track a family group across more genetic distance than Family Tree DNA allows.    The 600+ year old Doolittle family has a genetic distance of 9, in R1b1a2, which tends to have more genetic variation than haplogroup I for any given time period.   The AS121210 cluster, small and clearly all descended from a Germanic warrior or family thereof that fought with the Romans, judging from where they turn up, and lived around 300 AD, has a genetic distance of 10, and it’s a highly reliable cluster, easy to identify at 67 markers.    The 600 year old Isles Scottish McKinstry family group has a maximum genetic distance of 6, but there are families from the same area with a genetic distance of 6 to 7.  
                     
                    Now, one has to be careful, because in large haplogroups with large amounts of genetic variation from common ancestors who only lived two to four thousand years ago, one tends to also have accidental matches at that amount of genetic distance.  In fact, it needs 67 markers to tell my brother’s real matches from his large number of accidental ones.  He is accidentally close to the modal haplotype of a very large clade.   At that amount of genetic distance, often not everyone even shares the same SNPs.   I don’t know if you’re talking about the Isles-Scottish haplotype or something different, but the Isles Scottish haplotype is easily distinguished and does not tend to have people with different SNPs who share it.
                     
                    Dora
                     
                     
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:01 AM
                    Subject: [I-M223] Re: IslesIrish with question re results
                     
                     

                     
                    We have  8-10 Bryants in the project. All are genealogically proven to be related within 6-8 generations. Some do not show up as matches for each other because they have more mutations than allowed by FTDNA algorithms. I know there are other family DNA projects  reporting a higher mutation rate than incorporated into algorithms. Rebecca

                  • stephenctimmis
                    Rebecca, Thank you. It is very interesting how you well known genealogy can tell you approximately when mutations approximately occurred on your lines.
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 1, 2013
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                      Rebecca,

                      Thank you. It is very interesting how you well known genealogy can tell you approximately when mutations approximately occurred on your lines.

                      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Bryant <rebbry49@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Stephen,
                      > If you are interested in more details, you can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/bryantsofrockislandcreek/dna-results
                      >
                      > Rebecca
                      >
                    • stephenctimmis
                      Hi Dora, it is good to hear from you again It is interesting that the Isles Scot group is such a robust group, but although few SNP s share the Haplotype in
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 1, 2013
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                        Hi Dora, it is good to hear from you again

                        It is interesting that the Isles Scot group is such a robust group, but although few SNP's share the Haplotype in question, I think Ken Nordvedt has done a good job of distinguishing strong groups that share the same SNP's - in the case of Isles Scot the SNP being L126, L137 and L369. This terminal SNP is shared by Isles Limbo, Isles Scot, Isles Scot Group 1, and Isles Irish.

                        This almost certainly means that the SNP's that seperate them have not been discovered yet.

                        Even though the basic Isles Scot group Haplotype is robust, there is still quite a lot of variation. Many have DYS393 = 14 instead of the modal 15. The Corbett name is associated with DYS464=14-14-15-15 rather than the modal 11-11-14-15. DYS389ii varies from 27 to 33 (modal = 29), and DYS449 varies from 25 to 31 (modal = 27).

                        I genuinely think the future holds some interesting SNP discoveries for Isles Scot, and it is a shame that Geno2 has not been useful in this regard, even though it has proved wonderful elsewhere in M223.

                        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don’t know what was the original question, or the group in question. Certainly it isn’t highly unusual to be able to track a family group across more genetic distance than Family Tree DNA allows. The 600+ year old Doolittle family has a genetic distance of 9, in R1b1a2, which tends to have more genetic variation than haplogroup I for any given time period. The AS121210 cluster, small and clearly all descended from a Germanic warrior or family thereof that fought with the Romans, judging from where they turn up, and lived around 300 AD, has a genetic distance of 10, and it’s a highly reliable cluster, easy to identify at 67 markers. The 600 year old Isles Scottish McKinstry family group has a maximum genetic distance of 6, but there are families from the same area with a genetic distance of 6 to 7.
                        >
                        > Now, one has to be careful, because in large haplogroups with large amounts of genetic variation from common ancestors who only lived two to four thousand years ago, one tends to also have accidental matches at that amount of genetic distance. In fact, it needs 67 markers to tell my brother’s real matches from his large number of accidental ones. He is accidentally close to the modal haplotype of a very large clade. At that amount of genetic distance, often not everyone even shares the same SNPs. I don’t know if you’re talking about the Isles-Scottish haplotype or something different, but the Isles Scottish haplotype is easily distinguished and does not tend to have people with different SNPs who share it.
                        >
                        > Dora
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Rebecca Bryant
                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:01 AM
                        > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [I-M223] Re: IslesIrish with question re results
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > We have 8-10 Bryants in the project. All are genealogically proven to be related within 6-8 generations. Some do not show up as matches for each other because they have more mutations than allowed by FTDNA algorithms. I know there are other family DNA projects reporting a higher mutation rate than incorporated into algorithms. Rebecca
                        >
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