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Re: Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)

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  • hstyri
    Kit 35845 Braun is indeed L1290 and L1317 derived, but at present there are no tests that confirms Ken Nordtvedt s tree. I couldn t find a kit, Ken has looked
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 24, 2013
      Kit 35845 Braun is indeed L1290 and L1317 derived, but at present there are no tests that confirms Ken Nordtvedt's tree.

      I couldn't find a kit, Ken has looked as well and he didn't find one, and you write that you've looked for a kit as well. I guess a single test to connect the dots makes sense.

      Kit N76807 Arnold belongs toa different clade and it would be great if he considered upgrading to more STR markers.

      Regards,
      H. Styri


      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@...> wrote:
      >
      > I wrote that 1290+ implies Z183- based on Nordtvedt's tree, but I can't find a kit whose tests confirm that L1290 is upstream of Z183, so my assertion might not be correct.
      >
      > I notice that Cont2a group 6 includes Arnett 35000, who tested L1290- and L1317-. This kit doesn't belong in a L1290+ group.
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I just noticed that Braun 35845 tested L1290+, and is therefore Z183-. Braun and Johnson 16711 are currently both in Cont2a group 6 in the M223 project. This group should be removed from Cont2a and given a different name, since L1290+ implies Z183- (and the rest of Cont2a, Cont2b, and Cont1 is Z183+).
      > >
      > > Arnold N76807 is the only known Z183*.
      > >
      > > I think that after several months of uncertainty about the shape of the Z76 sector, this sector is ending up looking much like it did before we began getting Geno 2.0 results, with the main difference being that we now know that Cont2a is closer to Cont1 than to Cont2b. It would be useful at this point to define Cont2a as CTS6433+ and Cont2b as CTS1977+, and to reclassify any kits or groups that have different SNP results.
      > >
      > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "hstyri" <styri@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn't ordered it yet. He's tested 111 STR.
      > > >
      > > > Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR markers. The tree is growing a new branch.
      > > >
      > > > Regards,
      > > > H. Styri
      > > >
      > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • manth43470@...
      Jim, I m one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513. Does this mean that Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2? Also,
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 24, 2013
        Jim,
         
        I'm one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513.  Does this mean that Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2?  Also, I have noticed that my Y-DNA Matches, who are false-positives, are in Continental 1.
         
        Regards,
         
        Mike Anthony
        Kit #18187
        I-M223, CTS6433*
        (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
      • manth43470@...
        Wayne, I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. The Results page shows: 1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a) 1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 24, 2013
          Wayne,
           
          I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. 
          The Results page shows: 
          1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
          1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
           
          The Colorized page shows: 
          1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
          MIN
          1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
          MIN
          1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
          MIN
          1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
           
          Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a.  Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
           
          Mike Anthony
          Kit #18187
          I-M223, CTS6433*
          (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
        • euonymus77
          Mike, I meant that as new SNP results give us a better understanding of the genealogical relationships between different clades, clade names and definitions
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 24, 2013
            Mike,

            I meant that as new SNP results give us a better understanding of the genealogical relationships between different clades, clade names and definitions should be updated to reflect these results. I think that it's about time to replace the Cont2a/Cont2b division with a CTS6433*/CTS1977+ division. We can keep the old labels and redefine them (e.g. Cont2a=CTS6433* and Cont2b=CTS1977+), or we can drop the old names and replace them with SNP labels.

            Frankly, I don't know what defines the difference between Cont2a and Cont2b. Nordtvedt's modalities chart doesn't define Cont2b, and he seems to have dropped the category Cont2a altogether.

            It's too bad that these new SNPs have such long names. "I-CTS6433*" is a mouthful. We can hope that a WTY will find a defining SNP for Cont2a and give it a shorter name!

            Jim

            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
            >
            > Jim,
            >
            > I'm one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513. Does this mean that
            > Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2?
            > Also, I have noticed that my Y-DNA Matches, who are false-positives, are in
            > Continental 1.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Mike Anthony
            > Kit #18187
            > I-M223, CTS6433*
            > (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
            >
          • Wayne Roberts
            Hello Mike, Jim, et al, I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 24, 2013
              Hello Mike, Jim, et al,
               
              I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page does not match the coding on the Coloured Results spreadsheet. I have advised Aaron and of course he reads this list.
               
              I see he has already moved P95 downstream of CTS1977 and changes to Cont2b.
               
              It is still early days with more CTS1977 and CTS6433 results due in next week or so. We have several new branches/groups to consider and we are waiting on FTDNA to add CTS1858, CTS10057 and CTS10100 to the SNP order list. We also have Geno 2.0 results due soon for Middlemiss in M223* C1719 cluster. The M223* Webb cluster is awaiting CTS616 and CTS9183 results. We also have a new DYS717=16 branch upstream or parallel to Z161 awaiting SNP results. We also need to determine which side of Z183 are L1290, L1317 located. Further down the tree in Z171 sector, it would seem Z185 and L1198 are phyloequivalent (and possibly Z166, Z180 and Z187), all of which need to be sorted out.
               
              I have also proposed removing Roots Group 3 as it has become irrelevant after members tested Z2054 and found to belong to other Roots groups.
               
              We welcome your observations, comments and recommendations and ask for your patience while the I-M223 tree is restructured.
               
              We encourage members to test recommended SNPs so they can be better placed in groups in a restructured tree.
               
              Finally welcome to new members of the Project and to this discussion list. New Project members go into the "Ungrouped" category until their markers have been analysed and then if possible they will be placed into a Group category. Recommended STR marker upgrades and SNP tests are listed at the end of their Group category. Beware some lines have been cut short but the character limit for this row. If in dout, please ask and please do NOT order FTDNA's Deep Clade test or their recommended SNPs or Geno 2.0 without checking with this Project's administrators first.
               
              Thanks
              Wayne
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:02 AM
              Subject: [I-M223] Re: Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)

               

              Wayne,
               
              I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. 
              The Results page shows: 
              1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
              1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
               
              The Colorized page shows: 
              1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
              MIN
              1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
              MIN
              1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
              MIN
              1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
               
              Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a.  Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
               
              Mike Anthony
              Kit #18187
              I-M223, CTS6433*
              (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)

            • euonymus77
              Wayne, I think that the administrators have done a good job adjusting the tree as new SNP results have come in, and I thank you for your work! I agree that we
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 25, 2013
                Wayne,

                I think that the administrators have done a good job adjusting the tree as new SNP results have come in, and I thank you for your work!

                I agree that we need more people to test CTS1977 and/or CTS6433, but I suggest that the testing recommendations be updated so that only CTS6433 is recommended for the Cont2a groups. Cont2a members are likely to be CTS6433+, so the CTS1977 test will be unnecessary for most (all?) Cont2a members. Persons who are also interested in their mitochondrial DNA and autosomal DNA should consider Geno 2.0.

                Jim


                --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Mike, Jim, et al,
                >
                > I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page does not match the coding on the Coloured Results spreadsheet. I have advised Aaron and of course he reads this list.
                >
                > I see he has already moved P95 downstream of CTS1977 and changes to Cont2b.
                >
                > It is still early days with more CTS1977 and CTS6433 results due in next week or so. We have several new branches/groups to consider and we are waiting on FTDNA to add CTS1858, CTS10057 and CTS10100 to the SNP order list. We also have Geno 2.0 results due soon for Middlemiss in M223* C1719 cluster. The M223* Webb cluster is awaiting CTS616 and CTS9183 results. We also have a new DYS717=16 branch upstream or parallel to Z161 awaiting SNP results. We also need to determine which side of Z183 are L1290, L1317 located. Further down the tree in Z171 sector, it would seem Z185 and L1198 are phyloequivalent (and possibly Z166, Z180 and Z187), all of which need to be sorted out.
                >
                > I have also proposed removing Roots Group 3 as it has become irrelevant after members tested Z2054 and found to belong to other Roots groups.
                >
                > We welcome your observations, comments and recommendations and ask for your patience while the I-M223 tree is restructured.
                >
                > We encourage members to test recommended SNPs so they can be better placed in groups in a restructured tree.
                >
                > Finally welcome to new members of the Project and to this discussion list. New Project members go into the "Ungrouped" category until their markers have been analysed and then if possible they will be placed into a Group category. Recommended STR marker upgrades and SNP tests are listed at the end of their Group category. Beware some lines have been cut short but the character limit for this row. If in dout, please ask and please do NOT order FTDNA's Deep Clade test or their recommended SNPs or Geno 2.0 without checking with this Project's administrators first.
                >
                > Thanks
                > Wayne
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: manth43470@...
                > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:02 AM
                > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Wayne,
                >
                > I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved.
                > The Results page shows:
                > 1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
                > 1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
                >
                > The Colorized page shows: 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                > MIN
                > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                > MIN
                >
                > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                > MIN
                >
                > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
                >
                > Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a. Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
                >
                > Mike Anthony
                > Kit #18187
                > I-M223, CTS6433*
                > (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
                >
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