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Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)

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  • euonymus77
    For the Z183 sector, DYS513 may be predictive of whether a kit is CTS6433+ or CTS1977+. Of 15 kits with positive results for one of these two SNPs and 111 DYS
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 23 8:21 AM
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      For the Z183 sector, DYS513 may be predictive of whether a kit is CTS6433+ or CTS1977+. Of 15 kits with positive results for one of these two SNPs and 111 DYS markers, all 5 CTS1977+ kits have 13 or 14 at DYS513 (78983 Eastin, N5605 Hausman, 235511 Embregts, N113005 Steepy, 65183 Michaels), while all 10 CTS6433+ kits have 12 at DYS513 (18187 Anthony, 102637 Hamlin, 7117 Colfer, N52116 McGugan, N22636 Andersen Toxwenius, 206773 Styri, 77830 Falk, 127052 McCall, 22066 Sewell, 6060 Carpenter).

      The great majority of kits classed as Cont1 in the M223 project have 12 at DYS513. As Cont1 is known to be CTS6433+, this result suggests that DYS513 is a useful predictor of CTS6433/CTS1977 status. Cont2to1 kits all have DYS513=12, suggesting that this group is CTS6433+. The great majority of Cont2b kits have 13 or 14 at DYS513, suggesting that Cont2b is CTS1977+. Finally, Cont2a splits between 12 and 13. Groups 6 and 7 are strongly DYS513=12, but the large unclassified group has 17 kits with DYS513=12 or 11, and 5 kits with DYS513=13. More testing is needed to determine whether Cont2a is CTS6433+ or whether it splits between CTS6433+ and CTS1977+. I'd especially encourage Cont2a persons with DYS513=13 to test for CTS6433 or CTS1977.

      Of course, mutations happen, so even if this correlation proves robust there will be exceptions!

      Jim
    • euonymus77
      I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 23 8:31 AM
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        I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.

        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@...> wrote:
        >
        > For the Z183 sector, DYS513 may be predictive of whether a kit is CTS6433+ or CTS1977+. Of 15 kits with positive results for one of these two SNPs and 111 DYS markers, all 5 CTS1977+ kits have 13 or 14 at DYS513 (78983 Eastin, N5605 Hausman, 235511 Embregts, N113005 Steepy, 65183 Michaels), while all 10 CTS6433+ kits have 12 at DYS513 (18187 Anthony, 102637 Hamlin, 7117 Colfer, N52116 McGugan, N22636 Andersen Toxwenius, 206773 Styri, 77830 Falk, 127052 McCall, 22066 Sewell, 6060 Carpenter).
        >
        > The great majority of kits classed as Cont1 in the M223 project have 12 at DYS513. As Cont1 is known to be CTS6433+, this result suggests that DYS513 is a useful predictor of CTS6433/CTS1977 status. Cont2to1 kits all have DYS513=12, suggesting that this group is CTS6433+. The great majority of Cont2b kits have 13 or 14 at DYS513, suggesting that Cont2b is CTS1977+. Finally, Cont2a splits between 12 and 13. Groups 6 and 7 are strongly DYS513=12, but the large unclassified group has 17 kits with DYS513=12 or 11, and 5 kits with DYS513=13. More testing is needed to determine whether Cont2a is CTS6433+ or whether it splits between CTS6433+ and CTS1977+. I'd especially encourage Cont2a persons with DYS513=13 to test for CTS6433 or CTS1977.
        >
        > Of course, mutations happen, so even if this correlation proves robust there will be exceptions!
        >
        > Jim
        >
      • hstyri
        Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn t ordered it yet. He s tested 111 STR. Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 23 8:59 AM
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          Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn't ordered it yet. He's tested 111 STR.

          Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR markers. The tree is growing a new branch.

          Regards,
          H. Styri

          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@...> wrote:
          >
          > I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
          >
        • euonymus77
          I just noticed that Braun 35845 tested L1290+, and is therefore Z183-. Braun and Johnson 16711 are currently both in Cont2a group 6 in the M223 project. This
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 23 3:50 PM
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            I just noticed that Braun 35845 tested L1290+, and is therefore Z183-. Braun and Johnson 16711 are currently both in Cont2a group 6 in the M223 project. This group should be removed from Cont2a and given a different name, since L1290+ implies Z183- (and the rest of Cont2a, Cont2b, and Cont1 is Z183+).

            Arnold N76807 is the only known Z183*.

            I think that after several months of uncertainty about the shape of the Z76 sector, this sector is ending up looking much like it did before we began getting Geno 2.0 results, with the main difference being that we now know that Cont2a is closer to Cont1 than to Cont2b. It would be useful at this point to define Cont2a as CTS6433+ and Cont2b as CTS1977+, and to reclassify any kits or groups that have different SNP results.

            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "hstyri" <styri@...> wrote:
            >
            > Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn't ordered it yet. He's tested 111 STR.
            >
            > Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR markers. The tree is growing a new branch.
            >
            > Regards,
            > H. Styri
            >
            > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
            > >
            >
          • euonymus77
            I wrote that 1290+ implies Z183- based on Nordtvedt s tree, but I can t find a kit whose tests confirm that L1290 is upstream of Z183, so my assertion might
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 23 6:56 PM
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              I wrote that 1290+ implies Z183- based on Nordtvedt's tree, but I can't find a kit whose tests confirm that L1290 is upstream of Z183, so my assertion might not be correct.

              I notice that Cont2a group 6 includes Arnett 35000, who tested L1290- and L1317-. This kit doesn't belong in a L1290+ group.

              Jim

              --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just noticed that Braun 35845 tested L1290+, and is therefore Z183-. Braun and Johnson 16711 are currently both in Cont2a group 6 in the M223 project. This group should be removed from Cont2a and given a different name, since L1290+ implies Z183- (and the rest of Cont2a, Cont2b, and Cont1 is Z183+).
              >
              > Arnold N76807 is the only known Z183*.
              >
              > I think that after several months of uncertainty about the shape of the Z76 sector, this sector is ending up looking much like it did before we began getting Geno 2.0 results, with the main difference being that we now know that Cont2a is closer to Cont1 than to Cont2b. It would be useful at this point to define Cont2a as CTS6433+ and Cont2b as CTS1977+, and to reclassify any kits or groups that have different SNP results.
              >
              > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "hstyri" <styri@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn't ordered it yet. He's tested 111 STR.
              > >
              > > Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR markers. The tree is growing a new branch.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > H. Styri
              > >
              > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • hstyri
              Kit 35845 Braun is indeed L1290 and L1317 derived, but at present there are no tests that confirms Ken Nordtvedt s tree. I couldn t find a kit, Ken has looked
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 24 3:48 AM
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                Kit 35845 Braun is indeed L1290 and L1317 derived, but at present there are no tests that confirms Ken Nordtvedt's tree.

                I couldn't find a kit, Ken has looked as well and he didn't find one, and you write that you've looked for a kit as well. I guess a single test to connect the dots makes sense.

                Kit N76807 Arnold belongs toa different clade and it would be great if he considered upgrading to more STR markers.

                Regards,
                H. Styri


                --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@...> wrote:
                >
                > I wrote that 1290+ implies Z183- based on Nordtvedt's tree, but I can't find a kit whose tests confirm that L1290 is upstream of Z183, so my assertion might not be correct.
                >
                > I notice that Cont2a group 6 includes Arnett 35000, who tested L1290- and L1317-. This kit doesn't belong in a L1290+ group.
                >
                > Jim
                >
                > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I just noticed that Braun 35845 tested L1290+, and is therefore Z183-. Braun and Johnson 16711 are currently both in Cont2a group 6 in the M223 project. This group should be removed from Cont2a and given a different name, since L1290+ implies Z183- (and the rest of Cont2a, Cont2b, and Cont1 is Z183+).
                > >
                > > Arnold N76807 is the only known Z183*.
                > >
                > > I think that after several months of uncertainty about the shape of the Z76 sector, this sector is ending up looking much like it did before we began getting Geno 2.0 results, with the main difference being that we now know that Cont2a is closer to Cont1 than to Cont2b. It would be useful at this point to define Cont2a as CTS6433+ and Cont2b as CTS1977+, and to reclassify any kits or groups that have different SNP results.
                > >
                > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "hstyri" <styri@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Kit 35845 Braun should consider ordering Z183 if he hasn't ordered it yet. He's tested 111 STR.
                > > >
                > > > Hopefully kit N76807 Arnold will consider upgrading his STR markers. The tree is growing a new branch.
                > > >
                > > > Regards,
                > > > H. Styri
                > > >
                > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "euonymus77" <euonymus77@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I should add that two kits have tested negative for both CTS1977 and CTS6433 (N76807 Arnold, 35845 Braun). Braun has 12 at DYS513.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • manth43470@...
                Jim, I m one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513. Does this mean that Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2? Also,
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 24 12:31 PM
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                  Jim,
                   
                  I'm one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513.  Does this mean that Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2?  Also, I have noticed that my Y-DNA Matches, who are false-positives, are in Continental 1.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Mike Anthony
                  Kit #18187
                  I-M223, CTS6433*
                  (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
                • manth43470@...
                  Wayne, I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. The Results page shows: 1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a) 1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 24 4:02 PM
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                    Wayne,
                     
                    I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. 
                    The Results page shows: 
                    1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
                    1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
                     
                    The Colorized page shows: 
                    1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                    MIN
                    1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                    MIN
                    1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                    MIN
                    1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
                     
                    Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a.  Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
                     
                    Mike Anthony
                    Kit #18187
                    I-M223, CTS6433*
                    (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
                  • euonymus77
                    Mike, I meant that as new SNP results give us a better understanding of the genealogical relationships between different clades, clade names and definitions
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 24 6:30 PM
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                      Mike,

                      I meant that as new SNP results give us a better understanding of the genealogical relationships between different clades, clade names and definitions should be updated to reflect these results. I think that it's about time to replace the Cont2a/Cont2b division with a CTS6433*/CTS1977+ division. We can keep the old labels and redefine them (e.g. Cont2a=CTS6433* and Cont2b=CTS1977+), or we can drop the old names and replace them with SNP labels.

                      Frankly, I don't know what defines the difference between Cont2a and Cont2b. Nordtvedt's modalities chart doesn't define Cont2b, and he seems to have dropped the category Cont2a altogether.

                      It's too bad that these new SNPs have such long names. "I-CTS6433*" is a mouthful. We can hope that a WTY will find a defining SNP for Cont2a and give it a shorter name!

                      Jim

                      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, manth43470@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Jim,
                      >
                      > I'm one of the CTS6433+ you listed with 12 at DYS513. Does this mean that
                      > Continental 2a should be split into something like Cont2a1 and Cont2a2?
                      > Also, I have noticed that my Y-DNA Matches, who are false-positives, are in
                      > Continental 1.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Mike Anthony
                      > Kit #18187
                      > I-M223, CTS6433*
                      > (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
                      >
                    • Wayne Roberts
                      Hello Mike, Jim, et al, I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 24 7:10 PM
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                        Hello Mike, Jim, et al,
                         
                        I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page does not match the coding on the Coloured Results spreadsheet. I have advised Aaron and of course he reads this list.
                         
                        I see he has already moved P95 downstream of CTS1977 and changes to Cont2b.
                         
                        It is still early days with more CTS1977 and CTS6433 results due in next week or so. We have several new branches/groups to consider and we are waiting on FTDNA to add CTS1858, CTS10057 and CTS10100 to the SNP order list. We also have Geno 2.0 results due soon for Middlemiss in M223* C1719 cluster. The M223* Webb cluster is awaiting CTS616 and CTS9183 results. We also have a new DYS717=16 branch upstream or parallel to Z161 awaiting SNP results. We also need to determine which side of Z183 are L1290, L1317 located. Further down the tree in Z171 sector, it would seem Z185 and L1198 are phyloequivalent (and possibly Z166, Z180 and Z187), all of which need to be sorted out.
                         
                        I have also proposed removing Roots Group 3 as it has become irrelevant after members tested Z2054 and found to belong to other Roots groups.
                         
                        We welcome your observations, comments and recommendations and ask for your patience while the I-M223 tree is restructured.
                         
                        We encourage members to test recommended SNPs so they can be better placed in groups in a restructured tree.
                         
                        Finally welcome to new members of the Project and to this discussion list. New Project members go into the "Ungrouped" category until their markers have been analysed and then if possible they will be placed into a Group category. Recommended STR marker upgrades and SNP tests are listed at the end of their Group category. Beware some lines have been cut short but the character limit for this row. If in dout, please ask and please do NOT order FTDNA's Deep Clade test or their recommended SNPs or Geno 2.0 without checking with this Project's administrators first.
                         
                        Thanks
                        Wayne
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:02 AM
                        Subject: [I-M223] Re: Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)

                         

                        Wayne,
                         
                        I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved. 
                        The Results page shows: 
                        1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
                        1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
                         
                        The Colorized page shows: 
                        1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                        MIN
                        1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                        MIN
                        1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                        MIN
                        1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
                         
                        Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a.  Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
                         
                        Mike Anthony
                        Kit #18187
                        I-M223, CTS6433*
                        (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)

                      • euonymus77
                        Wayne, I think that the administrators have done a good job adjusting the tree as new SNP results have come in, and I thank you for your work! I agree that we
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 25 5:35 AM
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                          Wayne,

                          I think that the administrators have done a good job adjusting the tree as new SNP results have come in, and I thank you for your work!

                          I agree that we need more people to test CTS1977 and/or CTS6433, but I suggest that the testing recommendations be updated so that only CTS6433 is recommended for the Cont2a groups. Cont2a members are likely to be CTS6433+, so the CTS1977 test will be unnecessary for most (all?) Cont2a members. Persons who are also interested in their mitochondrial DNA and autosomal DNA should consider Geno 2.0.

                          Jim


                          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Mike, Jim, et al,
                          >
                          > I am aware of problems in the number coding for the groups such as two groups having 1.2.2.1.1 and that the coding on the Results page does not match the coding on the Coloured Results spreadsheet. I have advised Aaron and of course he reads this list.
                          >
                          > I see he has already moved P95 downstream of CTS1977 and changes to Cont2b.
                          >
                          > It is still early days with more CTS1977 and CTS6433 results due in next week or so. We have several new branches/groups to consider and we are waiting on FTDNA to add CTS1858, CTS10057 and CTS10100 to the SNP order list. We also have Geno 2.0 results due soon for Middlemiss in M223* C1719 cluster. The M223* Webb cluster is awaiting CTS616 and CTS9183 results. We also have a new DYS717=16 branch upstream or parallel to Z161 awaiting SNP results. We also need to determine which side of Z183 are L1290, L1317 located. Further down the tree in Z171 sector, it would seem Z185 and L1198 are phyloequivalent (and possibly Z166, Z180 and Z187), all of which need to be sorted out.
                          >
                          > I have also proposed removing Roots Group 3 as it has become irrelevant after members tested Z2054 and found to belong to other Roots groups.
                          >
                          > We welcome your observations, comments and recommendations and ask for your patience while the I-M223 tree is restructured.
                          >
                          > We encourage members to test recommended SNPs so they can be better placed in groups in a restructured tree.
                          >
                          > Finally welcome to new members of the Project and to this discussion list. New Project members go into the "Ungrouped" category until their markers have been analysed and then if possible they will be placed into a Group category. Recommended STR marker upgrades and SNP tests are listed at the end of their Group category. Beware some lines have been cut short but the character limit for this row. If in dout, please ask and please do NOT order FTDNA's Deep Clade test or their recommended SNPs or Geno 2.0 without checking with this Project's administrators first.
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          > Wayne
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: manth43470@...
                          > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:02 AM
                          > Subject: [I-M223] Re: Possible STR marker for CTS6433 / CTS1977 split (Z183, Cont 1 & 2)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Wayne,
                          >
                          > I can see the question on the Cont 2a split is half solved.
                          > The Results page shows:
                          > 1.2.2.1.1.3- L1317 (Cont2a)
                          > 1.2.1.1.1.3.1- L1290 (Cont2a Group 6/511=10)
                          >
                          > The Colorized page shows: 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                          > MIN
                          > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                          > MIN
                          >
                          > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10) - test L1290, L1317
                          > MIN
                          >
                          > 1.2.2.1.1- M223>...>L801, Z76>L1317>L1290 (ContX1 511=10)
                          >
                          > Perhaps the Results page could be updated to show the change, which is shown better on the Colorized page since we no longer have a Group 6 in Cont 2a. Having two different Cont2a groups (some L1317+, L1290+, some L1317-, L1290-) has been a little schizophrenic.
                          >
                          > Mike Anthony
                          > Kit #18187
                          > I-M223, CTS6433*
                          > (Cont2a, generic)(Basic Cont-2)
                          >
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