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M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)

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  • stephenctimmis
    I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642. I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
      I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.

      I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).

      I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.

      1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?

      I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.

      Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.

      Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.

      What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
    • Dora Smith
      I’d start by asking Ken Nordtvedt. knordtvedt@bresnan.net He might not have answers to all of these questions, but he’ll probably offer ideas on some
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
        I’d start by asking Ken Nordtvedt.   knordtvedt@...   He might not have answers to all of these questions, but he’ll probably offer ideas on some of them.   He may also snort at your ideas, and if he does, but doesn’t convince you you’re wrong, don’t worry about it.   Mind you, I personally wonder if you’re likely to be right, but I’m not right up on it, so I’m not going to offer an opinion.  
         
        I would go through the projects that include Isles Scottish, and see how often and in who DYS568 is found.   Offhand I’d expect that probably you’re right, and certainly it’s a reasonable suspicion.   DYS568 is very slow changing; my brother also has a very unusual value of that marker.   I’d also check into the liklihood that it’s a mistake.  This seems like a dumb question, but there is an actual GROUP of people and perhaps more than one entire group, that have that value of DYS 568, right?   If entire groups than it’s probably not a mistake.  
         
        Have you looked at Ken’s folder lately?  Because M284 is a changing story, and Ken’s got groups crammed in there that I’ve never heard of.
         
        I’d be a poor one to speak on the categories themselves as they keep changing and I can’t keep them straight. 
         
        I just looked at his sheet today, and one thing I notice is that he may have the Isles-Scottish and M284 haplotypes mixed up, by virtue of having put the M284 haplotype where the Isles-Scottish group should go.  However 15 and 16 are distinctively the typical Isles Scottish values at DYS 385.  (Not always, my brother in law’s entire group are 15, 17.) 
         
        There is a certain amount of genetic convergence, I think is the word – STR markers within certain groups have a tendency to change a certain way.  I have the impression that they tend to increase over time rather than decrease, because they’re counts of repeating markers.  
         
        What you could do is map out your evidence that two groups may have common ancestry.  
         
        Seeming shared markers are one way to figure out what groups are descended from who.   Other things go into it.  
         
        Two things that go into deciding which way around things are are history, and the amount of time haplotype clusters have been in existence or in certain areas.   History gets to which way people are likely to have migrated; as a rule people migrated from England into Scotland rather than vice versa.   Now, my Smith line is actually evidently descended from a Roman soldier, and we have a pretty clear idea  where this man (maybe together with several of his sons) was stationed at at in 300 AD; the improbable does happen.   Winking smile 
         
        Haplotype clusters are most reliably dated relative to each other by the amount of genetic distance within them.   You can tell where they’ve been longest by where they have the greater genetic distance.   You can also estimate the MCRA by the amount of genetic distance.   Some geneticists apply formulas to that problem, and sometimes the formulas are too theoretical or too rigid.   What I usually do is try to see how fast the haplotypes are changing within particular groups; for instance, in the past three or four hundred years when you’re more likely to have multiple descendants of known common ancestors.   A haplotype cluster is oldest where it has the most genetic variation, and not necessarily where it has the greatest numbers.   You do have to be careful that you’ve got large enough numbers to get a good idea of the genetic variation; some of these M284 subclusters are very small, or their representation in the projects if very small.   
         
        Sometimes small numbers are enough; for instance, there are only a few M284 people from the continent, but the genetic distance between them is twice that of all the many M284 people in Great Britain.   That isn’t unusual;  groups that migrate often barely genetically resemble the parent population.   To begin with, real processes of selection often determine who migrates.   Second, members of a fairly small group experience weird founder effects, especially when they move to sparsely settled areas or remain isolated from other people in the new territory.   In one group of northern islands, a single immigrant R1a haplotype came to dominate the population.   A single mutation for variegate porphyria, which is a very rare genetic disease, came from Holland where it is very rare, and is now carried by 2% of the people of South Africa, both Black and White.   2% of the Eskimos of Greenland exactly match my brother’s I1 haplotype at 9 markers.   I think that 2% of the people of England are M284+.  
         
        The problem comes in when you’re looking at for instance 3 or 6 people who are Isles-Limbo, if that’s which group has that small number, and they also don’t have a lot of genetic variation.   Large genetic variation that clearly points to a point of origin won’t mean more if you get more people, but if you have small genetic variation it could be because you don’t have enough people.  
         
        Yours,
        Dora Smith
         
         
         
        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 2:49 PM
        Subject: [I-M223] M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
         
         

        I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.

        I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).

        I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.

        1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?

        I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.

        Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.

        Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.

        What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?

      • stephenctimmis
        I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
          I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.

          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" <stephen@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
          >
          > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
          >
          > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
          >
          > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
          >
          > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
          >
          > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
          >
          > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
          >
          > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
          >
        • Dora Smith
          Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it. Dora From: stephenctimmis Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
            Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists.  Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it.
             
            Dora
             
            Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
            Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
             
             

            I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.

            --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:

            >
            > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is
            127642.
            >
            > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be
            provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
            >
            > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following.
            I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
            >
            > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is
            11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
            >
            > I ask because some
            show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
            >
            > Because all of the examples are L126, and
            all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
            >
            > Despite being
            younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
            >
            > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles
            English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
            >

          • stephenctimmis
            Dora, I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
              Dora,

              I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.


              --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
              >
              > Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it.
              >
              > Dora
              >
              > From: stephenctimmis
              > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
              > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
              >
              >
              > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
              >
              > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
              > >
              > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
              > >
              > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
              > >
              > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
              > >
              > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
              > >
              > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
              > >
              > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
              > >
              > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
              > >
              > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
              > >
              >
            • Dora Smith
              No, whoa! Ken’s alright – he’s just Ken. And he’s not exactly one of the spleenier people around. Dora From: stephenctimmis Sent: Saturday, March
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
                No, whoa!    Ken’s alright – he’s just Ken.   And he’s not exactly one of the spleenier people around.  
                 
                Dora
                  
                 
                Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:20 PM
                Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                 
                 


                Dora,

                I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.

              • stephenctimmis
                I was joking when I wrote about the spleen thing. I have spoken with Ken before, and he seems a nice enough guy. :)
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 2, 2013
                  I was joking when I wrote about the spleen thing. I have spoken with Ken before, and he seems a nice enough guy. :)

                  --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > No, whoa! Ken’s alright â€" he’s just Ken. And he’s not exactly one of the spleenier people around.
                  >
                  > Dora
                  >
                  >
                  > From: stephenctimmis
                  > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 7:20 PM
                  > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dora,
                  >
                  > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                  >
                • stephenctimmis
                  Dear All, Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following: My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 3, 2013
                    Dear All,

                    Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:

                    "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+

                    Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."

                    Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)

                    ---------------------------------------------------

                    This is an added piece of information concerning M284

                    Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.

                    Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.

                    Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.

                    It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.


                    --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" <stephen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Dora,
                    >
                    > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it.
                    > >
                    > > Dora
                    > >
                    > > From: stephenctimmis
                    > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
                    > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
                    > >
                    > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
                    > > >
                    > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
                    > > >
                    > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
                    > > >
                    > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
                    > > >
                    > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
                    > > >
                    > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
                    > > >
                    > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Wayne Roberts
                    Stephen, You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 22, 2013
                      Stephen,
                       
                      You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
                       
                      Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
                       
                      Wayne
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
                      Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)

                       

                      Dear All,

                      Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:

                      "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+

                      Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."

                      Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)

                      ---------------------------------------------------

                      This is an added piece of information concerning M284

                      Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.

                      Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.

                      Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.

                      It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.

                      --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Dora,
                      >
                      > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Oh, I didn’t know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon I’ll try to get to look at it.
                      > >
                      > > Dora
                      > >
                      > > From: stephenctimmis
                      > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
                      > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
                      > >
                      > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
                      > > >
                      > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
                      > > >
                      > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
                      > > >
                      > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
                      > > >
                      > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
                      > > >
                      > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
                      > > >
                      > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
                      > > >
                      > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • stephenctimmis
                      Thanks, Wayne. Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle. I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 23, 2013
                        Thanks, Wayne.

                        Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.

                        I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.

                        Steve Timmis, Oxford UK

                        --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Stephen,
                        >
                        > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
                        >
                        > Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
                        >
                        > Wayne
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: stephenctimmis
                        > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
                        > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear All,
                        >
                        > Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:
                        >
                        > "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
                        >
                        > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
                        >
                        > Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > This is an added piece of information concerning M284
                        >
                        > Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
                        >
                        > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.
                        >
                        > Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.
                        >
                        > It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
                        >
                        > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dora,
                        > >
                        > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
                        > > >
                        > > > Dora
                        > > >
                        > > > From: stephenctimmis
                        > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
                        > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Dora Smith
                        I don’t think DYS 568 changes very often. My haplogroup I1, DF29- (old sector) brother has DYS 568 = 10, when normally it’s 11. He belongs to a 1700
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 25, 2013
                          I don’t think DYS 568 changes very often.  My haplogroup I1, DF29- (old sector) brother has DYS 568 = 10, when normally it’s 11.   He belongs to a 1700 year old cluster, most of whom have it equal 11, but all of the Scottish families including ours have 10, and they also have a much smaller amount of genetic distance between them than do the rest of the group.  
                           
                          Dora
                           
                          Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:54 AM
                          Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                           
                           

                          Thanks, Wayne.

                          Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.

                          I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.

                          Steve Timmis, Oxford UK

                          --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          Stephen,
                          >
                          > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7
                          clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
                          >
                          > Aaron might
                          consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
                          >
                          > Wayne
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: stephenctimmis
                          > To:
                          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
                          > Subject: [I-M223] Re:
                          M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear All,
                          >
                          > Ken has been kind enough to answer my
                          Enquiry, and says the following:
                          >
                          > "My database has 6 M223+ with
                          568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
                          >
                          > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is
                          older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
                          >
                          >
                          Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          This is an added piece of information concerning M284
                          >
                          > Isles Eng
                          = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
                          >
                          > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900
                          years before Present = 100CE.
                          >
                          > Isles Scot = 1500 years before
                          present = 500CE.
                          >
                          > It is also almost certainly true that all
                          M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
                          >
                          > --- In
                          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dora,
                          > >
                          > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall
                          make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In
                          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the
                          files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
                          > > >
                          > > > Dora
                          > > >
                          > > > From: stephenctimmis
                          > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49
                          PM
                          > > > To:
                          href="mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7
                          (seven)
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I forgot to
                          mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis"
                          wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my
                          kit number is 127642.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have
                          uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the
                          following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 1)Because the
                          normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles
                          English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all
                          L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the
                          568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What are
                          the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • darkdarkwing
                          Hi Wayne and Stephen, I requested the L126 test today. I am awaiting results for the rest of my Y STR 111. I am also awaiting the results of the L1195 test.
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 29, 2013
                            Hi Wayne and Stephen,

                            I requested the L126 test today. I am awaiting results for the rest of my Y STR 111. I am also awaiting the results of the L1195 test.

                            Kind regards,
                            Don
                            Kit: 273350

                            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" <stephen@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks, Wayne.
                            >
                            > Obviously I find this interesting because I am directly involved in the DYS568=7 puzzle.
                            >
                            > I have a feeling there may be quite a few names out there because my haplotype is very wayward of the rest of the 568 Subhaplogroup. I am sure there must be haplotypes to fill the gulf. I do not mind being odd, but not as freaky as I seem tto be at the moment.
                            >
                            > Steve Timmis, Oxford UK
                            >
                            > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Roberts" <wayne_r_roberts@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Stephen,
                            > >
                            > > You will have a another member to add to your DYS568=7 clade. STR marker results have been posted for Donovan Dennis Whitfield kit 273350 and he has the distinctive DYS568=7.
                            > >
                            > > Aaron might consider setting up Isles Limbo Group 1 with DYS568=12 and Isles Limbo Group 2 with DYS568=7 now there are several names involved in your clade and given the age of it.
                            > >
                            > > Wayne
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: stephenctimmis
                            > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:59 AM
                            > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear All,
                            > >
                            > > Ken has been kind enough to answer my Enquiry, and says the following:
                            > >
                            > > "My database has 6 M223+ with 568 = 7. One is most very likely from the Z161+ Continental division of M223+ and due to an independent mutation, while the other five are related and part of Limbo L126+ M284+
                            > >
                            > > Those five have tmrca of 1900 years which is older than Isles Scot, but younger than Limbo as a whole."
                            > >
                            > > Thank you very much, Ken, that is very useful information. It seems that maybe I was as much as 10% correct in my independent thinking.... (sigh!)
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > This is an added piece of information concerning M284
                            > >
                            > > Isles Eng = 4000 years Before Present = 2000BCE.
                            > >
                            > > Isles Limbo 568=7 = 1900 years before Present = 100CE.
                            > >
                            > > Isles Scot = 1500 years before present = 500CE.
                            > >
                            > > It is also almost certainly true that all M284+ L126+ 568=7 are descended from One Man that lived in approximately 100CE.
                            > >
                            > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dora,
                            > > >
                            > > > I have taken your advice and written to Ken direct. I shall make all aware of any spleen Ken chooses to vent at me, for the benefit of all on the forum.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Oh, I didnâ?Tt know the files section exists. Tomorrow afternoon Iâ?Tll try to get to look at it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dora
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From: stephenctimmis
                            > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:49 PM
                            > > > > To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > Subject: [I-M223] Re: M284, L126 Isles Limbo with DYS568 = 7 (seven)
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I forgot to mention that the file I uploaded to the Files Section here is called Limbo Seven, and it has people in it that are not part of the M223 project. A while back I asked a few of them to join, but to no avail.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In mailto:I-M223%40yahoogroups.com, "stephenctimmis" wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I am Stephen Timmis and my kit number is 127642.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I have uploaded a small Excel File (ODF format can be provided)of people that are clearly L126, and have DYS568 = 7. (Not all have all STR's but the pattern makes it clear that they are very close cousins to those that do).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I was wondering if anyone could answer the following. I openly confess that I am not bright enough to work these things out for myself, but I think the implications of what I am trying to think could be highly significant.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > 1)Because the normal values for DYS568 is 11 or 12, can it be reasonably assumed that any with DYS568 = 7 are all descended from one original male ancestor?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I ask because some show STR features of Ken's Isles English Haplotype and others show features of Isles Scot Haplotype.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Because all of the examples are L126, and all L126 Isles Scot do not display DYS568 = 7, then it must be the case that the evolution took the form M284 - L126 - DYS568=7. This means that the DYS568 = 7 group must be younger than the Isles Scot group.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Despite being younger than the Isles Scot group, some of the 568=7 group are displaying features of being Isles English (eg 393=14, 439=10, 389=30, 459=8-10, 464=11-14-15-15). Others in the group hold steadfastly to the Isles Scot Haplotype.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > What are the chances, given the above, that Isles English and Scot show parallel development from Isles-P? What is the chance that the typically Isles English STR's developed from the Isles Scot Haplotype, rather than the other way round? Could this actually mean that STR mutations are very haphazard within SNP defined haplogroups, and that age estimates need to be thoroughly recalculated because STR's are mutating backwards and forwards at a faster rate than previously assumed?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
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