Re: [I-M223] M284
- Yes I support Dr Wilson's view on M284, when talking of Scotland and NE Ireland. Many interested parties have been viewing the STR values of M284 and later its SNP for approximately 8 years now.
If you look back into various posts you may see our early conversations. We must be careful as 'Pict' is a word ascribed to a group of northern tribes, and thought to be derived from the ancient word Pretanni [Pretan/Bretan/Briton]. I descend from Scottish and Irish Picts as do many, although not in a direct male line.
In reading the material culture of our 'Picts' their ancient language shows a greater similarity to Brythonic [Britons] than to Goidelic. Although an estimated German influences is also ascribed. We know from reading the material culture of the Scottish and Northern English Bronze age, that there was proto-Germanic contact with northern Britain well before the Anglo-Saxon's [Southern Scandinavians].
In terms of an SNP map in time we will see M284 spread throughout Britain and Ireland with concentrations in Western Scotland, particularly Argyle and NE Ulster particularly Co.Down and southern Antrim. This can be estimated from the percentage of M284 found in those Clans.
M284 in Ireland is concentrated in the NE. M284 in Scotland is concentrated in the West.
M284 in England seems to be spread thin and wide on the ground.
Dora, good minds established so via academic peer review at the PhD level and above have spent much time and effort in establishing such views.
Which M284 group do your ancestors belong?
Grant.On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote:Well, I don’t know if M284 is concentrated in NE Ireland yet – the map feature isn’t working.The only thing we can be sure of is that M284 did not cross to Britain on dry land.I saw that Trinity College thing – or, rather, I saw mention of it. I don’t think anyone has seen the actual data – but if you have, could you please e-mail it to me.I’m supposing for the sake of argument that they’re wrong. The fact that one must evidently buy their book to see what they’re talking about does not support their veracity. Neither does the fact that it comes out of left field. As far as I can tell noone else claims such a thing. It sounds too much like the work of Wilson and Moffat, who constantly get their data upside down and make outrageous claims contradicted by the facts, in order to sell books and get funding. Their latest is that the great Celtic/ Central European SNP U152, which they claim is based in Italy, got to Britain with the Roman army. I understand they spoke at a recent genetic genealogy conference, and it was sad, or funny, depending on who you asked, and when they were done speaking they literally ran away and wouldn’t talk to anyone. Jim Wilson personally told me on the phone that the Isles-Scottish haplotype is the quintessential Pictish haplotype, because southwestern Scotland was the Pictish center. You know – ????!!!!!!!!!!!!With all of that said, I refuse to debate whether they’re right until I’ve seen the map of M284 in the I-M223 project! That would be far more reliable evidence.I want to see the data. That the SNP map in the I-M223 project should actually map the SNPs isn’t a tall order!I also need a list of the STR markers that estimate M284. Our beloved not necessarily project administrators took that out of the project results table in order to substitute everyone in this category needs to test for downstream SNPs.Now, what Celts got to Ireland when is precisely what I want to know – and I’ll accept the actual maps of the distribution of relevant SNPs like M284, thank you very much! And of course reliable estimations of M284 from STR markers.Dora
M284 is older than so-called Celtic migrations to Britain. The Celts were those people associated with the Hallstatt [700-500 BCE] and Le Tene [450- 0 BCE] cultures of central and western Europe.
M284 was established in situ well before the Hallstatt culture reached Britain. The Irish Clan study via research at Trinity College Dublin established a link between M284 in Ireland with a concentration in the north-east, among those Clans [eg. McGuinness and McCartan,and others] who were traditionally associated with Irish Pict's.
I know also that native men from the Isle of Jura [see Lindsay's of Jura] on the west coast of Scotland are also M284 and we find M284 among others in various groups associated with west coast families. Jura was once the land bridge connecting Scotland and Ireland. M284 may well be members of the first early waves of post-glacial maximum migration to Britain or there ancestor was an early member and M284 arose in Britain as a unique related group of descendants. The later view is gaining greater support.
La Tene expansion in terms of culture and language may be associated with M284 migration into NE Ireland. This would explain a concentration there. Although I add that M284 is also found spread evenly in low frequency throughout Ireland and this may be a record of an early [now pan-Irish] and later migration [NW Settlement] of M284 from an ancient so-called British origin.
A few thoughts.....
Grant MacLea South.On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Wayne Roberts <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:Sorry Dora,I know nothing about the origins, travels and distribution of M284 or any of the other branches. You might get a more informed or additional answers posting your query on one of the Rootsweb lists - DNA or Haplogroup I.RegardsWayne----- Original Message -----From: Dora SmithSent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:23 AMSubject: Re: [Bulk] [I-M223] DruidsSorry, I didn’t know I was participating in a religious argument.I did recently ask about the age and distribution of M284. That does have to do with figuring out the Celtic migration. I thought this was about my post.With that said, I’m done with it. Probably M284 as well. Ain’t noone here going to say anything intelligent this week.Dora
- Thanks Wayne!On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:07 AM, 'Wayne Roberts' wayne_r_roberts@... [I-M223] <I-M223@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
We are still waiting on Cline's analysis. He has just appeared on the YFull Y-tree under M284*. When his analysis is complete we should see him appear under L1193 or L1193* and separate out some of those SNPs currently listed with L1193 for which Cline is ancestral. You and Richland are currently grouped together under L1193* but this should change to Y3684* and you both have new SNPs listed as “private” for now.
I don't think there are any other L1193+ members with Big Y results pending. Once we have a clear picture for Cline, we should be able to start testing members for some new SNPs. I'll be requesting at least Y5996 to be added to the order list. I believe we could also request Y3684. From me comparing the novel variant SNP locations and the YFull analysis, I see the Isles M284 tree as:
M284 – Isles Pioneer Group 1
... M284* (Gordon)
... L1195 - Isles Pioneer Group 2
...... L1195* [Wilson]
...... L1193, Y3709, Y3710 - Isles English
......... L1193* (Cline)
............ Y4180, Y4989 (Richland)
............ L1194, YP718, CTS1621 (Farmer)
............ Y5996 (Grogan, Hynes)
...... L126, L137, L369 – Isles Limbo
......... L126* (Diaz)
......... S7753/Y4171, F2696 – Isles Scottish / Isles Irish
............ S7753* (Arvin, Diamond, Hunt, Taggart, MacDonald, McDonald)
............... Y4750* (Ferguson, Gillespie, Hemphill, Mahorter, Wilkerson)
............... Y5673 (McReynolds, McKinstry, McMillion)
There are a number of Big Y results still pending for Limbo and Scots and analysis is underway for Gordon, Cline, MacDonald and hopefully soon Diamond. We should see a new branch for McDonald and a new branch for Hemphill emerge by Christmas. Wilson was individually SNP tested at FTDNA and found to be L1195+, L1193-, L126-, L137-, L369- and as such represents a new branch. It would be good to have him Big Y tested next.
I'm happy that Isles-Scot and Irish is making progress, anything new for us Isles-English folks?
Posted by: David Farmer <dagodbey@...>