Re: [I-M223] M284
- Yes I support Dr Wilson's view on M284, when talking of Scotland and NE Ireland. Many interested parties have been viewing the STR values of M284 and later its SNP for approximately 8 years now.
If you look back into various posts you may see our early conversations. We must be careful as 'Pict' is a word ascribed to a group of northern tribes, and thought to be derived from the ancient word Pretanni [Pretan/Bretan/Briton]. I descend from Scottish and Irish Picts as do many, although not in a direct male line.
In reading the material culture of our 'Picts' their ancient language shows a greater similarity to Brythonic [Britons] than to Goidelic. Although an estimated German influences is also ascribed. We know from reading the material culture of the Scottish and Northern English Bronze age, that there was proto-Germanic contact with northern Britain well before the Anglo-Saxon's [Southern Scandinavians].
In terms of an SNP map in time we will see M284 spread throughout Britain and Ireland with concentrations in Western Scotland, particularly Argyle and NE Ulster particularly Co.Down and southern Antrim. This can be estimated from the percentage of M284 found in those Clans.
M284 in Ireland is concentrated in the NE. M284 in Scotland is concentrated in the West.
M284 in England seems to be spread thin and wide on the ground.
Dora, good minds established so via academic peer review at the PhD level and above have spent much time and effort in establishing such views.
Which M284 group do your ancestors belong?
Grant.On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote:Well, I don’t know if M284 is concentrated in NE Ireland yet – the map feature isn’t working.The only thing we can be sure of is that M284 did not cross to Britain on dry land.I saw that Trinity College thing – or, rather, I saw mention of it. I don’t think anyone has seen the actual data – but if you have, could you please e-mail it to me.I’m supposing for the sake of argument that they’re wrong. The fact that one must evidently buy their book to see what they’re talking about does not support their veracity. Neither does the fact that it comes out of left field. As far as I can tell noone else claims such a thing. It sounds too much like the work of Wilson and Moffat, who constantly get their data upside down and make outrageous claims contradicted by the facts, in order to sell books and get funding. Their latest is that the great Celtic/ Central European SNP U152, which they claim is based in Italy, got to Britain with the Roman army. I understand they spoke at a recent genetic genealogy conference, and it was sad, or funny, depending on who you asked, and when they were done speaking they literally ran away and wouldn’t talk to anyone. Jim Wilson personally told me on the phone that the Isles-Scottish haplotype is the quintessential Pictish haplotype, because southwestern Scotland was the Pictish center. You know – ????!!!!!!!!!!!!With all of that said, I refuse to debate whether they’re right until I’ve seen the map of M284 in the I-M223 project! That would be far more reliable evidence.I want to see the data. That the SNP map in the I-M223 project should actually map the SNPs isn’t a tall order!I also need a list of the STR markers that estimate M284. Our beloved not necessarily project administrators took that out of the project results table in order to substitute everyone in this category needs to test for downstream SNPs.Now, what Celts got to Ireland when is precisely what I want to know – and I’ll accept the actual maps of the distribution of relevant SNPs like M284, thank you very much! And of course reliable estimations of M284 from STR markers.Dora
M284 is older than so-called Celtic migrations to Britain. The Celts were those people associated with the Hallstatt [700-500 BCE] and Le Tene [450- 0 BCE] cultures of central and western Europe.
M284 was established in situ well before the Hallstatt culture reached Britain. The Irish Clan study via research at Trinity College Dublin established a link between M284 in Ireland with a concentration in the north-east, among those Clans [eg. McGuinness and McCartan,and others] who were traditionally associated with Irish Pict's.
I know also that native men from the Isle of Jura [see Lindsay's of Jura] on the west coast of Scotland are also M284 and we find M284 among others in various groups associated with west coast families. Jura was once the land bridge connecting Scotland and Ireland. M284 may well be members of the first early waves of post-glacial maximum migration to Britain or there ancestor was an early member and M284 arose in Britain as a unique related group of descendants. The later view is gaining greater support.
La Tene expansion in terms of culture and language may be associated with M284 migration into NE Ireland. This would explain a concentration there. Although I add that M284 is also found spread evenly in low frequency throughout Ireland and this may be a record of an early [now pan-Irish] and later migration [NW Settlement] of M284 from an ancient so-called British origin.
A few thoughts.....
Grant MacLea South.On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Wayne Roberts <wayne_r_roberts@...> wrote:Sorry Dora,I know nothing about the origins, travels and distribution of M284 or any of the other branches. You might get a more informed or additional answers posting your query on one of the Rootsweb lists - DNA or Haplogroup I.RegardsWayne----- Original Message -----From: Dora SmithSent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:23 AMSubject: Re: [Bulk] [I-M223] DruidsSorry, I didn’t know I was participating in a religious argument.I did recently ask about the age and distribution of M284. That does have to do with figuring out the Celtic migration. I thought this was about my post.With that said, I’m done with it. Probably M284 as well. Ain’t noone here going to say anything intelligent this week.Dora
- What forum? I’d love to go look at it.DoraIn relation to this topic and similar topics, could we please keep to informative posts and in simple language as many here including me are just coming to grips with genetic genealogy and the whole DNA thing. We have a range of people now on this discussion list from beginners to seasoned veterans and people with English as a second language. Please be considerate. That said, Kenneth wrote in another Forum his views on M284 sector and gave permission to share here:There have recently seen some M284+ sector discussions on other forums which seem surreal in what they neglect to consider.
Some try to treat M284+ as if it is a single clade. For almost all purposes that is folly. That M284+ divided into two different populations --- Isles-Eng and Isles-Scot, different in age and different in geography as well as different in STR haplotype motif, was known and discussed for many years. Only later did the L126 and other snps come along to tag this difference which was apparent in the structure of the extended haplotypes.
Isles-Scot is very young with its tmrca of about 1400 years and two somewhat older cousins clades. While Isles-Eng is almost 4000 years back to its tmrca. Isles-Eng and Isles-Scot had their common ancestor over 5000 years ago. Neglecting those strong distinctions between the two main clades of M284+ will often lead things astray.
See Tree for M223+ x Z161+ for the clade structure of M284+ as known today.
And no sense of time back to key events can be obtained by those who deal with or talk solely about snps. Age estimates for nodes and the foundings of clades depends on the variances that have grown between and within clade populations of haplotypes --- and the more STRs in the haplotypes the better for this purpose. For the immediate future, STR-established clades within our haplotype populations will more finely divide the tree than will SNPs. While SNPs have the virtue of giving us the temporal ordering of tree nodes which are close together in the tree, we are still years away from having the quantity of unbiased snp numbers discovered and made usable in order that snp time estimates can compete with and exceed STR-based time estimates.