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Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

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  • Brian McCall
    If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 30, 2012
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      If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High Clan Stewart line. His y-happlogroup is also, HG I. You will have to excuse the fact. ido notremeber his sub-clade within Y-HG.I. 

      From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
      To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:53 AM
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

       
      Mr. Johnston,
       If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
      Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.   

      From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
      Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

       
      Aaron,
      Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
      Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
      Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
      We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
      The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
      We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
      If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
      Clifford Johnston





    • manth43470@aol.com
      Is it the case then, that all of my Y-DNA matches are not only i2b1/M223, but Continental 2a as well? These matches include twelve surnames and twenty-two
      Message 2 of 17 , May 1, 2012
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        Is it the case then, that all of my Y-DNA matches are not only i2b1/M223, but Continental 2a as well?  These matches include twelve surnames and twenty-two individuals. 
         
        G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
         
        In a message dated 4/30/2012 11:05:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, mccallbrian568@... writes:
         

        If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High Clan Stewart line. His y-happlogroup is also, HG I. You will have to excuse the fact. ido notremeber his sub-clade within Y-HG.I. 

        From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
        To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:53 AM
        Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

         
        Mr. Johnston,
         If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
        Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.   

        From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
        Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

         
        Aaron,
        Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
        Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
        Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
        We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
        The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
        We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
        If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
        Clifford Johnston





      • Brian McCall
        My statements are general. I do not know, about all your matches. It is the idea. That Cont.2a does have a common ancestor. That common ancestor or the snp
        Message 3 of 17 , May 1, 2012
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          My statements are general. I do not know, about all your matches. It is the idea. That Cont.2a does have a common ancestor. That common ancestor or the snp mutation will define Cont.2a. Other common ancestors, or snp mutations may divide Cont 2a into newer, or further haplotypes/subcldes. The number of surnames is not really, relevent. The closer we get to present the more relative a surname can become.
           Aaron Torres may be able to answer to the most relevent research on Cont.2a. So, i return the discussion back to Aaron Torres.   

          From: "manth43470@..." <manth43470@...>
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:57 AM
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

           
          Is it the case then, that all of my Y-DNA matches are not only i2b1/M223, but Continental 2a as well?  These matches include twelve surnames and twenty-two individuals. 
           
          G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
           
          In a message dated 4/30/2012 11:05:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, mccallbrian568@... writes:
           
          If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High Clan Stewart line. His y-happlogroup is also, HG I. You will have to excuse the fact. ido notremeber his sub-clade within Y-HG.I. 

          From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
          To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:53 AM
          Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

           
          Mr. Johnston,
           If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
          Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.   

          From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
          To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
          Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

           
          Aaron,
          Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
          Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
          Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
          We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
          The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
          We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
          If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
          Clifford Johnston







        • Brian McCall
          Since, I mentioned Clan Stewart. Lord Lyon has been mentioned. The Bayeux Tapestry has been mentioned. Another person may be included in Clan Stewart research.
          Message 4 of 17 , May 1, 2012
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            Since, I mentioned Clan Stewart. Lord Lyon has been mentioned. The Bayeux Tapestry has been mentioned. Another person may be included in Clan Stewart research. It would be Queen Elzabeth. If I amnot mistaking. The Lord Lyon began as a Norman entity. The surname arising in France.
             I understand not all of William's Conquest army were Norman nor Viking. Charlemagne was harassed by Vikings. Women(nuns if memory serves) cut the noses off  to spite their faces, to prevent rape.

            From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
            To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 2:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

             
            If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High Clan Stewart line. His y-happlogroup is also, HG I. You will have to excuse the fact. ido notremeber his sub-clade within Y-HG.I. 

            From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
            To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:53 AM
            Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

             
            Mr. Johnston,
             If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
            Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.   

            From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
            Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

             
            Aaron,
            Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
            Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
            Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
            We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
            The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
            We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
            If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
            Clifford Johnston







          • Brian McCall
            I am not saying the surname intanglement cannot be untangled. ________________________________ From: Brian McCall To:
            Message 5 of 17 , May 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I am not saying the surname intanglement cannot be untangled.

              From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
              To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

               
              My statements are general. I do not know, about all your matches. It is the idea. That Cont.2a does have a common ancestor. That common ancestor or the snp mutation will define Cont.2a. Other common ancestors, or snp mutations may divide Cont 2a into newer, or further haplotypes/subcldes. The number of surnames is not really, relevent. The closer we get to present the more relative a surname can become.
               Aaron Torres may be able to answer to the most relevent research on Cont.2a. So, i return the discussion back to Aaron Torres.   

              From: "manth43470@..." <manth43470@...>
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

               
              Is it the case then, that all of my Y-DNA matches are not only i2b1/M223, but Continental 2a as well?  These matches include twelve surnames and twenty-two individuals. 
               
              G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
               
              In a message dated 4/30/2012 11:05:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, mccallbrian568@... writes:
               
              If i might add. A Clan Stewart surname membe has recently discoverd. Throughdocumented gennalogical proff. that his own ancestor may very well be the true High Clan Stewart line. His y-happlogroup is also, HG I. You will have to excuse the fact. ido notremeber his sub-clade within Y-HG.I. 

              From: Brian McCall <mccallbrian568@...>
              To: "I-M223@yahoogroups.com" <I-M223@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:53 AM
              Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

               
              Mr. Johnston,
               If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
              Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.   

              From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
              Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

               
              Aaron,
              Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
              Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
              Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
              We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
              The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
              We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
              If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
              Clifford Johnston









            • Clifford Johnston
              Brian, Thank you for your comments. We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the
              Message 6 of 17 , May 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Brian,

                Thank you for your comments.

                We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                Cliff.

                From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a


                Mr. Johnston,
                If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a


                Aaron,
                Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                Clifford Johnston
              • Clifford Johnston
                OK, I’ve downloaded our Y-DNA chart into the Files section; however, the page divisions are not shown correctly. I have the original formatted to show in
                Message 7 of 17 , May 1, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  OK, I’ve downloaded our Y-DNA chart into the Files section; however, the page divisions are not shown correctly. I have the original formatted to show in landscape. We set up our chart this way to make it easy to print, paste and read in our easy chairs. Some hang it on a wall. The edges can be trimmed and Scotch taped together - it makes for easy reading. It’s a wee bit different from what you all are used to, but it works for us ☺

                  Cliff.

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clifford Johnston
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:42 PM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a



                  Brian,

                  Thank you for your comments.

                  We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                  Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                  There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                  Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                  Cliff.

                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                  Mr. Johnston,
                  If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                  Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                  From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                  Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                  Aaron,
                  Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                  Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                  Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                  We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                  The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                  We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                  If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                  Clifford Johnston
                • Brian McCall
                  Cliff,   I have found, old age conception . or a change of life birth can be a nit-picky subject.  Even, illegitimate birth s nit picked. My family had
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 1, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Cliff,
                      I have found, "old age conception'. or "a change of life birth" can be a nit-picky subject.  Even, illegitimate birth's nit picked.
                    My family had one or two, ancestral archealogical digs scheduled, in England. They have been postponed. Due to economic difficulties in England.
                     My Johnston/e surname ancestor is 5 generations, before myself. As I mentioned. It is not my y-Dna ancestor. But, it is still, a grandparent. If the dig or exhumation is approved. However, little help I might provide. I will help, to best ability.
                    Brian McCall 

                    From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
                    Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                     

                    Brian,

                    Thank you for your comments.

                    We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                    Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                    There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                    Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                    Cliff.

                    From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                    Mr. Johnston,
                    If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                    Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                    From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                    To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                    Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                    Aaron,
                    Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                    Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                    Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                    We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                    The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                    We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                    If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                    Clifford Johnston



                  • Clifford Johnston
                    Brian, I believe that the “old boy” was in his late 40s which doesn’t seem all that old to father a child as my last one was at age 40 ☺ Any help is
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 1, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Brian,

                      I believe that the “old boy” was in his late 40s which doesn’t seem all that old to father a child as my last one was at age 40 ☺

                      Any help is appreciated ☺

                      Cliff.

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:02 PM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a


                      Cliff,
                      I have found, "old age conception'. or "a change of life birth" can be a nit-picky subject. Even, illegitimate birth's nit picked.
                      My family had one or two, ancestral archealogical digs scheduled, in England. They have been postponed. Due to economic difficulties in England.
                      My Johnston/e surname ancestor is 5 generations, before myself. As I mentioned. It is not my y-Dna ancestor. But, it is still, a grandparent. If the dig or exhumation is approved. However, little help I might provide. I will help, to best ability.
                      Brian McCall

                      From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
                      Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a



                      Brian,

                      Thank you for your comments.

                      We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                      Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                      There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                      Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                      Cliff.

                      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                      Mr. Johnston,
                      If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                      Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                      From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                      Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                      Aaron,
                      Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                      Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                      Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                      We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                      The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                      We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                      If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                      Clifford Johnston
                    • Brian McCall
                      Cliff, That is nit-picky. A birth at 40 years old. The 6th great grand-parents of my surname. My grand-father was 12 to 18 years older, than my grandmother.
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Cliff,
                        That is nit-picky. A birth at 40 years old. The 6th great grand-parents of my surname. My grand-father was 12 to 18 years older, than my grandmother. His age is not pinned down exactly, yet. She had her first child at 20 years old. Her last  child was 26 years later. She was 46 years old. My grandfather was between 60 and 78 years old. Census record mistakes have confused his exact age.
                         I have one other grandparent. She gave birth in her late 40's or early 50's. It is my best knowledge. none of those children were autistic. I have a grandmother. Who was 14 or 16 years old. I have 2nd and 3rd or 4th cousin  grandparents. I truly believe. Some people in today's soceity fool themselves. They do not believe such things occured. 
                          Brian  

                        From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:52 PM
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                         

                        Brian,

                        I believe that the “old boy” was in his late 40s which doesn’t seem all that old to father a child as my last one was at age 40 ☺

                        Any help is appreciated ☺

                        Cliff.

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:02 PM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                        Cliff,
                        I have found, "old age conception'. or "a change of life birth" can be a nit-picky subject. Even, illegitimate birth's nit picked.
                        My family had one or two, ancestral archealogical digs scheduled, in England. They have been postponed. Due to economic difficulties in England.
                        My Johnston/e surname ancestor is 5 generations, before myself. As I mentioned. It is not my y-Dna ancestor. But, it is still, a grandparent. If the dig or exhumation is approved. However, little help I might provide. I will help, to best ability.
                        Brian McCall

                        From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
                        Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                        Brian,

                        Thank you for your comments.

                        We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                        Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                        There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                        Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                        Cliff.

                        From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                        Mr. Johnston,
                        If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                        Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                        From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                        To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                        Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                        Aaron,
                        Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                        Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                        Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                        We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                        The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                        We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                        If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                        Clifford Johnston



                      • sallfertorr
                        Hello, Cliff Cont2a is more complex than Cont2c because geographically it is much more spread out. So even though it is about the same age as Cont2c (4,000
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello, Cliff

                          Cont2a is more complex than Cont2c because geographically it is much more spread out. So even though it is about the same age as Cont2c (4,000 years), we do not have enough information to speculate as to its origins. Our next step will be to try and discover some smaller subgroups within Cont2a, as that should make members' research easier.

                          Unfortunately, Ken Nordtvedt and I were working to find some useful haplotype clusters and were unable to do so, other than Cont2a Group 1/YCAII=17,21. Our next step should be to send a few Cont2a members to WTY in search of relevant SNP's. Considering the age of this group, it shouldn't be difficult to discover new SNP's, which would bring subgroups a little closer to the genealogical age research members like you are working on.

                          Note: recent WTY participant Rasey (Cont2a subgroup, kit# 69631) yielded L801 but no SNP's that were specific to Cont2a. Coverage was of 231,451 base pairs.

                          Thanks,
                          Aaron Torres

                          --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "texasfalconer" <texasfalconer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Aaron,
                          > Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                          > Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                          > Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                          > We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                          > The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                          > We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                          > If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                          > Clifford Johnston
                          >
                        • Clifford Johnston
                          Aaron, Thanks for your reply. Interesting as the values for YCA II a & b are 19 & 21 across the board for our Johnstons in Poldean group. So, our haplogroup
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Aaron,

                            Thanks for your reply. Interesting as the values for YCA II a & b are 19 & 21 across the board for our Johnstons in Poldean group.

                            So, our haplogroup originated some 4,000 years ago. That certainly puts some sort of limit on it. At least it’s not older ☺ Too bad that you and Ken couldn't find something more. Ken was instrumental in helping us get initiated to Y-DNA some 6 years ago.

                            Let me know if there is something that you’d like tested within our group as I’m sure that someone would respond. I have a Newsletter that goes out to some 80 Cousins.

                            Cliff.

                            From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sallfertorr
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:45 AM
                            To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [I-M223] Cont2a


                            Hello, Cliff

                            Cont2a is more complex than Cont2c because geographically it is much more spread out. So even though it is about the same age as Cont2c (4,000 years), we do not have enough information to speculate as to its origins. Our next step will be to try and discover some smaller subgroups within Cont2a, as that should make members' research easier.

                            Unfortunately, Ken Nordtvedt and I were working to find some useful haplotype clusters and were unable to do so, other than Cont2a Group 1/YCAII=17,21. Our next step should be to send a few Cont2a members to WTY in search of relevant SNP's. Considering the age of this group, it shouldn't be difficult to discover new SNP's, which would bring subgroups a little closer to the genealogical age research members like you are working on.

                            Note: recent WTY participant Rasey (Cont2a subgroup, kit# 69631) yielded L801 but no SNP's that were specific to Cont2a. Coverage was of 231,451 base pairs.

                            Thanks,
                            Aaron Torres

                            --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "texasfalconer" <texasfalconer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Aaron,
                            > Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                            > Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                            > Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                            > We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                            > The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                            > We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                            > If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                            > Clifford Johnston
                            >
                          • Brian McCall
                             Cliff,  Whatever the reason the Clan remained unclaimed for 200 years. I have reviewed the Lord Luon s process. It is a long, drawn out process. Alone,your
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                               Cliff,
                               Whatever the reason the Clan remained unclaimed for 200 years. I have reviewed the Lord Luon's process. It is a long, drawn out process. Alone,your genealogy proven is big step in your I-M223 research. Well, it is a big step in I-M223 research, as a whole.
                               
                              brian  

                              From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
                              Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                               

                              Brian,

                              Thank you for your comments.

                              We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                              Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                              There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                              Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                              Cliff.

                              From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                              Mr. Johnston,
                              If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                              Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                              From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                              To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                              Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                              Aaron,
                              Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                              Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                              Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                              We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                              The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                              We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                              If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                              Clifford Johnston



                            • manth43470@aol.com
                              Aaron, Let me know if you need another WTY volunteer for Cont2a. I notice my YCAII=19,19. G. Michael Mike Anthony In a message dated 5/2/2012 6:45:07 A.M.
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Aaron,
                                 
                                Let me know if you need another WTY volunteer for Cont2a.  I notice my YCAII=19,19.
                                 
                                G. Michael "Mike" Anthony
                                 
                                In a message dated 5/2/2012 6:45:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sallfertorr@... writes:
                                 

                                Hello, Cliff

                                Cont2a is more complex than Cont2c because geographically it is much more spread out. So even though it is about the same age as Cont2c (4,000 years), we do not have enough information to speculate as to its origins. Our next step will be to try and discover some smaller subgroups within Cont2a, as that should make members' research easier.

                                Unfortunately, Ken Nordtvedt and I were working to find some useful haplotype clusters and were unable to do so, other than Cont2a Group 1/YCAII=17,21. Our next step should be to send a few Cont2a members to WTY in search of relevant SNP's. Considering the age of this group, it shouldn't be difficult to discover new SNP's, which would bring subgroups a little closer to the genealogical age research members like you are working on.

                                Note: recent WTY participant Rasey (Cont2a subgroup, kit# 69631) yielded L801 but no SNP's that were specific to Cont2a. Coverage was of 231,451 base pairs.

                                Thanks,
                                Aaron Torres

                                --- In I-M223@yahoogroups.com, "texasfalconer" <texasfalconer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Aaron,
                                > Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                                > Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                                > Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                                > We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                                > The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                                > We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                                > If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                                > Clifford Johnston
                                >

                              • Clifford Johnston
                                Brian, It was customary back then that when a line daughtered out that the monarchy would take the old charter back and reissue a new charter to convey the
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 2, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Brian,

                                  It was customary back then that when a line daughtered out that the monarchy would take the old charter back and reissue a new charter to convey the titles to the distaff side of the family (a daughter). Unfortunately not only did the direct line daughter out, but also the Lord died before the new charter was issued. In addition, before this the Maxwells had raided the Johnston tower, captured it, and set the contents of their trunk which contained all of their charters, legal documents and letters on fire. This made it very difficult for the extended male members of the family, ie: cousins and uncles, to present a legal, documented claim. It was a mess. Even though Christopher Johnston, M.D., had done his work in the early 1900s he apparently had no desire to pursue the titles. It wasn’t until perhaps the 1960s also that the Poldean line was recognized by the Lord Lyon as being a direct line to Sir Adam Johnston.

                                  In short, it was a mess and took almost 200 years to sort through. Now that the titles have been conferred I would like to see Lord Annandale move forward and help us with a Y-DNA sample from the old, unbroken, male Johnston/e line. It would be great to have proof positive of some of our oral history.

                                  Cliff.

                                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                                  Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 12:39 PM
                                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a


                                  Cliff,
                                  Whatever the reason the Clan remained unclaimed for 200 years. I have reviewed the Lord Luon's process. It is a long, drawn out process. Alone,your genealogy proven is big step in your I-M223 research. Well, it is a big step in I-M223 research, as a whole.

                                  brian

                                  From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
                                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a



                                  Brian,

                                  Thank you for your comments.

                                  We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

                                  Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

                                  There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

                                  Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.

                                  Cliff.

                                  From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
                                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                                  Mr. Johnston,
                                  If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
                                  Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

                                  From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
                                  To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
                                  Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

                                  Aaron,
                                  Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
                                  Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean/
                                  Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
                                  We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
                                  The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
                                  We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
                                  If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
                                  Clifford Johnston
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