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125RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

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  • Clifford Johnston
    May 2, 2012

      It was customary back then that when a line daughtered out that the monarchy would take the old charter back and reissue a new charter to convey the titles to the distaff side of the family (a daughter). Unfortunately not only did the direct line daughter out, but also the Lord died before the new charter was issued. In addition, before this the Maxwells had raided the Johnston tower, captured it, and set the contents of their trunk which contained all of their charters, legal documents and letters on fire. This made it very difficult for the extended male members of the family, ie: cousins and uncles, to present a legal, documented claim. It was a mess. Even though Christopher Johnston, M.D., had done his work in the early 1900s he apparently had no desire to pursue the titles. It wasn’t until perhaps the 1960s also that the Poldean line was recognized by the Lord Lyon as being a direct line to Sir Adam Johnston.

      In short, it was a mess and took almost 200 years to sort through. Now that the titles have been conferred I would like to see Lord Annandale move forward and help us with a Y-DNA sample from the old, unbroken, male Johnston/e line. It would be great to have proof positive of some of our oral history.


      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
      Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 12:39 PM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

      Whatever the reason the Clan remained unclaimed for 200 years. I have reviewed the Lord Luon's process. It is a long, drawn out process. Alone,your genealogy proven is big step in your I-M223 research. Well, it is a big step in I-M223 research, as a whole.


      From: Clifford Johnston <texasfalconer@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:42 PM
      Subject: RE: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a


      Thank you for your comments.

      We’ve been working very diligently on our project. Our name has been found in various forms as it morphed through the centuries, but the chain appears to be unbroken. There are some bureaucratic types who insist that a paper trail must be shown for every generation and so far the only questionable link in the Poldean line of Christopher Johnston, M.D., is one male who appeared to marry later in life. The question being asked is whether or not there is a “missing generation” as one could theoretically be inserted in the proposed “old age gap”. To me, this is little more than nitpicking as his children would have been unable to inherit his property, but then we did pay the genealogist to do a thorough job. I should mention that he is Ian McClumpha, archivist to Lord Annandale, chief of Clan Johnston/e. The chief’s son David has asked some questions of others in our group as to his genetic relationship, etc.. It was suggested to him that it would be very helpful if he could arrange to have one of the past clan chief’s bodies exhumed and a tooth removed for Y-DNA testing. Several of their burial places were discovered in the past few years and appropriately marked, so it is not a question of locating one – just a matter of gaining legal access. Unfortunately no response has been forthcoming. Hopefully David will “see the light” when the family titles are conferred upon him. It would certainly be very helpful to all of us ☺

      Oral history indicates that Margaret, wife of King David I, was the sister of one of our ancestors, and that was one of the influencing reasons that King David I invited them to the Borders – land in exchange for protecting the borders.

      There is another aspect of our family’s history that intrigues me very much. The Templar Knights wore a red cross on a white tunic. Their shields were typically silver with a black chief. Silver is often rendered as white in prints and the movies. The early Johnstoun coat of arms was silver, a black saltire and chief, the latter charged with 3 silver cushions – 1296 AD. One could make the argument that the cross on the tunic was simply moved to the bottom of the Johnstoun coat of arms in the form of the saltire (Scottish cross). Essentially the early Johnstoun coat of arms was very similar to the shields of the Knights Templar, so similar that one could say that it was the shield of the Knights Templar with some additions. On top of this there are remains of a Knights Templar chapel immediately to the west of Moffat, Scotland, which was Johnstoun land at one time. All of this does peak my curiosity! I’ve posted an ordnance map indicating the location of the chapel on my PBase site here: http://www.pbase.com/cjmax/image/118570565/original

      Perhaps I could post my Y-DNA chart in the Files section as this is a Yahoo site. The big question that we have is just how many of us are connected via Sir Adam Johnstoun? I've got a couple of other charts too that I haven't transferred from my old computer yet. These people are too far away from us to be connected via Sir Adam; however, they do go back to Scotland via oral history and are close enough to us to have easily been cousins, uncles, etc. back at the time of Margaret's Train, thus reinforcing this bit of history.


      From: I-M223@yahoogroups.com [mailto:I-M223@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian McCall
      Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:53 AM
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

      Mr. Johnston,
      If I may. My opinion is not worth diddly. I simply, want to say. Well done. It bring to mind the Bayeux Tapestry, Margaret's Train into Scotland, etc., andStrongbow into Ireland, and Sinclair's involvement in the Orkney's. The Vikings into Orkney, England and Ireland. Then those moving into Normandy and further. The returnof William into England. The exodus of William's Knight's or Clans into Scotland.Know as Margaret's Train. the inter-related families involved in those Viking migrations. Thier relationships with King David, Alexander, etc. included. Your ancestor's namemay very well be included on the Bayeux Tapestry. Some Claim. Many of William's followers grew to depise William's taxation and rule. Others claim. William sent his Norman Viking descendents into Scotland and Ireland. Thirdly, claims or pertains to the invitation of King David.
      Although, it is not my Y-Dna. The best I know. But, I have lineal ancestors such as Montgomery, Allen, and Johnston. They are all direct Grandparents. I may very well have a Wallace connection. But, that is a different story.

      From: texasfalconer <texasfalconer@...>
      To: I-M223@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:20 PM
      Subject: [I-M223] I2b1-Continental 2a

      Can you give us a brief rundown on the I2b1–Continental 2a haplogroup as you did for the 2c?
      Briefly, we have a small group that started some 7 years ago, the Johnstons in Poldean:
      Poldean is a holding of some 2,000 acres approximately 3.5 miles south of Moffat, Scotland. Our "Poldean" Johnstons typically lived within a 5-7 mile radius of Moffat. Harsh taxes imposed by the "English" after Union forced many to leave Scotland and Poldean was sold.
      We have grown from the original 5 Y-DNA Cousins to well over 50 "Cousins and Kin" with approximately 32 of us possibly connected via Sir Adam Johnston (Johnstoun), ca. 1450. As we are of Viking descent we place considerable value upon oral history as the Viking sagas have proven to be quite accurate as have other Viking oral histories. One such bit of oral history indicates that an ancestor of our Johnston/e line came over to England in 1066 with William of Normandy. Later he and other family members estimated at possibly 180-200 travelled to the Borders of Scotland and settled there under an agreement with King David 1.
      The Poldean line in Scotland has been accepted by the Court of the Lord Lyon as being descended from Herbert, a son of Sir Adam Johnston and his second wife. Although the titles of Clan Johnston/e remained unclaimed for some 200 years, apparently none of the Poldean descendants stepped forward to claim them. Finally they were conferred upon a descendant of the distaff side of the family back in the 1960s, if I recall correctly. I've started to write an article several times for the Clan newsletter; however, new information keeps coming on board, outdating whatever I've written so it is still in limbo.
      We've also hired a professional genealogist in Scotland to confirm the genealogy opus done by Christopher Johnston, M.D., a scholar of some note. So far he has found it to be very accurate, and now he is about to expand upon other "Poldean" males and their various branches, fleshing them out and hopefully helping to make the connection back to Scotland for some of us.
      If there is something that we as a group or individuals can do to further the Y-DNA research of our haplogroup, let me know. I've put together our own Y-DNA spreadsheet which is designed to be taped together so that it can be read in the comfort of one's favorite easy chair. If you would like a copy to look at I can forward it to you as an attachment (Excel).
      Clifford Johnston
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