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Re: [Hybrid] Re: "invisible" producers

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  • Matt A.
    I m not quite sure if this would be considered relevant, but another good example of production is the Pet Shop Boys track For your own good . If anyone has
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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      I'm not quite sure if this would be considered relevant, but another good
      example of production is the Pet Shop Boys' track "For your own good". If
      anyone has heard the original demo version, it contains the same basic
      notes, but when the song was passed over to Rollo to produce, he gave it
      that signature sound of his made famous with Faithless. It actually sounds
      like it's Rollo featuring Neil Tennant from PSB on vocals, rather than a PSB
      song that Rollo produced.

      Just another example of how production can impact a song. It doesn't take
      away from the impact the original artist(s) had on the song, but it
      definitely shows how production can influence a certain song.
      Matt A.
    • vinnie970
      ... song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing before WOW turned it
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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        > Producing is of course important and mostly means how the written
        song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by
        Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing
        before WOW turned it into the classic piece it is.
        >
        > I just find myself wondering about the said sincerity of electric
        music. Most fans bash Britney and other Billboard top50 artists for
        not being honest and making the music themselves but how often one
        considers which DJs or even electronic artists actually rely on the
        help of some gifted producer lurking in the shadows? How many of the
        artists in fact are just icons who do their real part when they
        perform live or DJ?
        >
        > -antti

        Well, Jody's been twiddling away at knobs since a pre-teen, so I
        figure he's learned a thing or two and is more than "just a DJ."
        Additionally, upon talking to him, he himself openly admitted that
        every idea he's implemented has originated from somewhere else, and
        takes credit for nothing. Top50 acts are many times crafted and
        shaped by corporate forces, so the reliance on others is much more
        prevalent. This is certainly not the case w/ most credible electronic
        acts, as they've many times been known to take the D.I.Y.
        approach. Finally, as it's already been revealed in another
        thread, "Blue" apparently comes down to a sampling issue...something
        WOW have openly done on many occasions. I don't think that implies
        they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body of
        work should put that to rest), however...as the Beatles put it, I
        guess you could say they took "a sad song and," and made "it
        better." ;)

        Just found it on Audiogalaxy and yes, it's the theme from the
        film "Withnail And I" released in '86 and it, in fact, sounds like
        transparent melancholy carnival music. Check for it on Audiogalaxy
        to get an idea what was sampled. "Blue" is basically a cover of this
        w/ a fair amount of melodic alteration (a different key, a unique
        bassline, original breakbeat programming and plenty of ambient
        atmosphere and musicality laid on top). This is akin to "The Fall,"
        which is more or less, a clubby cover, of Coldcut's "Autumn Leaves."

        So, there you have it...I don't think anyone's making any claims that
        can't be backed up.
      • Thomas Hansen
        Well, I guess we can all agree that producers CAN have a lot to do with the sound or song, and they can choose not to. In many cases we don t notice who
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 2, 2002
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          Well, I guess we can all agree that producers CAN have a lot to do with the sound or song, and they can choose not to. In many cases we don't notice who produces the music, and other cases we do. Rollo, the guy behaind Faithless has his own stamp on the music he touch, most Faithless Fans know which. The Hybrid guys usually also have a recognizeable sound hidden in the music... Well, you know what I mean. And sometimes we can just hear that it aint the right touch in the music...
          The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi... ( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer. OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what impact a producer can have.
          In other cases, the producer might choose, or be ordered to do what the band ask him to do, that is the cases where the band is the main men behind their music, and don't want a producer to make their "sound" ( They are unlike Faithless... )

          Well, all my stories lead to the fact: Producers can and can not have a big impact on the sound. But that is up to the people who make that particular song to decide.

          Best regards

          Thomas Hansen
        • propellerheadcase
          I thought Bon Jovi were produced by Desmond Child, they certainly were at one stage. And he has most recently produced Ricky Martin. And Mutt Lange produced
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 2, 2002
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            I thought Bon Jovi were produced by Desmond Child, they certainly
            were at one stage. And he has most recently produced Ricky Martin.
            And Mutt Lange produced Def Leppard and Bryan Adams (let's play spot
            the backing-vocal similarities), AC/DC and Billy Ocean.

            --- In HybridUK@y..., "Thomas Hansen" <thomas_h_18@h...> wrote:
            > The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi...
            ( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like
            that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was
            this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not
            Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped
            Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost
            childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer.
            OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what
            impact a producer can have.
          • c_chilton
            ... of ... Certainly so! Wow saw an oppurtunity to make a beautiful song and took it. Why deprive us the music listening public the pleasure of ever hearing
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2, 2002
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              > I don't think that implies
              > they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body
              of
              > work should put that to rest),

              Certainly so! Wow saw an oppurtunity to make a beautiful song and
              took it. Why deprive us the music listening public the pleasure of
              ever hearing such a tune simply because of the 'issues' in taking a
              sample.

              To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related, some
              poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and what
              he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
              Because they can't.

              Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
              vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
              people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
              have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
              times.

              ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)


              Chuck
            • propellerheadcase
              I used to be in the anti-sample brigade back in my very-metal days but now I see it as an artform that Steinski, Bomb the Bass, DJ Shadow, the Chemical
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 3, 2002
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                I used to be in the anti-sample brigade back in my very-metal days
                but now I see it as an artform that Steinski, Bomb the Bass, DJ
                Shadow, the Chemical Brothers, Fatboy Slim and the Avalanches have
                successively taken to new plateaus. I personally believe it is
                harder to force two samples to co-exist than it is to write two
                complimentary melody lines.

                In Fatboy's case it isn't plagiarism for the simple fact that he's
                not copying a pre-existent idea he is physically copying the original
                material into a new context - that's a BIG difference.

                I had a thought on the whole sampling/copying front the other day:

                No-one would denigrate Beethoven for his use of traditional French
                and Russian music in the '1812 Overture', would they. But he
                certainly sampled/re-contextualised pre-existent material.

                --- In HybridUK@y..., "c_chilton" <c_chilton@y...> wrote:
                > To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related,
                some
                > poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and
                what
                > he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
                > Because they can't.
                >
                > Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
                > vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
                > people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
                > have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
                > times.
                >
                > ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)
                >
                >
                > Chuck
              • Antti Mutta
                Thanks Vinnie. This makes Blue sort of like the Traffic soundtrack Helicopter tune remixed by WOW. Tasty, yes, but mostly just a good remix and not something
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 5, 2002
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                  Thanks Vinnie. This makes Blue sort of like the Traffic soundtrack Helicopter tune remixed by WOW. Tasty, yes, but mostly just a good remix and not something I'd call an original production. Takes the classic status of this track for me. Notice: FOR ME, so no flaming please.

                  It must be fun being an engineer / producer behind some famous DJ. Here's a recent example: in the Parks & Wilson Essential Mix there's an superb tech-house track from Phantom Power aka Rob Rives. Further study using Google reveals the man is Danny Tenaglia's engineer. Now, this sounds as he's some sort of coffee unit handler in the studio, whereas you should be reading: the man BEHIND remixes and productions, which are dubbed Danny Tenaglia productions. Well, money does incredible things to people and their minds.

                  -antti

                  > Well, many times, the people listed in the credits might be the ones
                  > behind the track in it's original form. BT's "Dreaming" existed
                  > previously in another form before Kirsty & BT spiced it up for 1999.
                  > Of course, BT's greatest tracks have many times been collaborations
                  > (not to take away from his original work!). WOW's "The Gift" uses a
                  > distinct vocal snippet from Nicole Jackon's "The First Time I Ever
                  > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
                  > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
                  > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W. I'm not
                  > sure what credits you have, but on the debut album and '97
                  > single, "Ajare" is credited to T. Siddique/J. Wisternoff/N. Warren.
                  > I can't comment on how much impact the former individual had because
                  > I simply don't know, but I suspect it's not much different than the
                  > following cases: Putnam & Cruise's role in "If I Survive," "Dreaming
                  > Your Dreams," and Putnam's role in "Finished Symphony," just to give
                  > a similar example.
                  >
                  > In each example, I'm sure everyone had a unique influence, and that
                  > the impact of said influence varied widely.
                  >
                  > VH.
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