Re: [Hybrid] Re: "invisible" producers
"David Dundas & Rick Wentworth" are just given credit for the sample wow
used from 'Withnail and I' ....
> > > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
> > > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
> > > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W.
> I noticed that the 'Blue' guitar string plucks were taken from a bit
> in 'Withnail and I' (somebit where they're walking the moors) :)
- I'm not quite sure if this would be considered relevant, but another good
example of production is the Pet Shop Boys' track "For your own good". If
anyone has heard the original demo version, it contains the same basic
notes, but when the song was passed over to Rollo to produce, he gave it
that signature sound of his made famous with Faithless. It actually sounds
like it's Rollo featuring Neil Tennant from PSB on vocals, rather than a PSB
song that Rollo produced.
Just another example of how production can impact a song. It doesn't take
away from the impact the original artist(s) had on the song, but it
definitely shows how production can influence a certain song.
> Producing is of course important and mostly means how the writtensong is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by
Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing
before WOW turned it into the classic piece it is.
>music. Most fans bash Britney and other Billboard top50 artists for
> I just find myself wondering about the said sincerity of electric
not being honest and making the music themselves but how often one
considers which DJs or even electronic artists actually rely on the
help of some gifted producer lurking in the shadows? How many of the
artists in fact are just icons who do their real part when they
perform live or DJ?
>Well, Jody's been twiddling away at knobs since a pre-teen, so I
figure he's learned a thing or two and is more than "just a DJ."
Additionally, upon talking to him, he himself openly admitted that
every idea he's implemented has originated from somewhere else, and
takes credit for nothing. Top50 acts are many times crafted and
shaped by corporate forces, so the reliance on others is much more
prevalent. This is certainly not the case w/ most credible electronic
acts, as they've many times been known to take the D.I.Y.
approach. Finally, as it's already been revealed in another
thread, "Blue" apparently comes down to a sampling issue...something
WOW have openly done on many occasions. I don't think that implies
they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body of
work should put that to rest), however...as the Beatles put it, I
guess you could say they took "a sad song and," and made "it
Just found it on Audiogalaxy and yes, it's the theme from the
film "Withnail And I" released in '86 and it, in fact, sounds like
transparent melancholy carnival music. Check for it on Audiogalaxy
to get an idea what was sampled. "Blue" is basically a cover of this
w/ a fair amount of melodic alteration (a different key, a unique
bassline, original breakbeat programming and plenty of ambient
atmosphere and musicality laid on top). This is akin to "The Fall,"
which is more or less, a clubby cover, of Coldcut's "Autumn Leaves."
So, there you have it...I don't think anyone's making any claims that
can't be backed up.
- Well, I guess we can all agree that producers CAN have a lot to do with the sound or song, and they can choose not to. In many cases we don't notice who produces the music, and other cases we do. Rollo, the guy behaind Faithless has his own stamp on the music he touch, most Faithless Fans know which. The Hybrid guys usually also have a recognizeable sound hidden in the music... Well, you know what I mean. And sometimes we can just hear that it aint the right touch in the music...
The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi... ( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer. OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what impact a producer can have.
In other cases, the producer might choose, or be ordered to do what the band ask him to do, that is the cases where the band is the main men behind their music, and don't want a producer to make their "sound" ( They are unlike Faithless... )
Well, all my stories lead to the fact: Producers can and can not have a big impact on the sound. But that is up to the people who make that particular song to decide.
- I thought Bon Jovi were produced by Desmond Child, they certainly
were at one stage. And he has most recently produced Ricky Martin.
And Mutt Lange produced Def Leppard and Bryan Adams (let's play spot
the backing-vocal similarities), AC/DC and Billy Ocean.
--- In HybridUK@y..., "Thomas Hansen" <thomas_h_18@h...> wrote:
> The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi...
( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like
that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was
this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not
Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped
Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost
childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer.
OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what
impact a producer can have.
> I don't think that impliesof
> they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body
> work should put that to rest),Certainly so! Wow saw an oppurtunity to make a beautiful song and
took it. Why deprive us the music listening public the pleasure of
ever hearing such a tune simply because of the 'issues' in taking a
To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related, some
poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and what
he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
Because they can't.
Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)
- I used to be in the anti-sample brigade back in my very-metal days
but now I see it as an artform that Steinski, Bomb the Bass, DJ
Shadow, the Chemical Brothers, Fatboy Slim and the Avalanches have
successively taken to new plateaus. I personally believe it is
harder to force two samples to co-exist than it is to write two
complimentary melody lines.
In Fatboy's case it isn't plagiarism for the simple fact that he's
not copying a pre-existent idea he is physically copying the original
material into a new context - that's a BIG difference.
I had a thought on the whole sampling/copying front the other day:
No-one would denigrate Beethoven for his use of traditional French
and Russian music in the '1812 Overture', would they. But he
certainly sampled/re-contextualised pre-existent material.
--- In HybridUK@y..., "c_chilton" <c_chilton@y...> wrote:
> To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related,
> poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and
> he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
> Because they can't.
> Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
> vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
> people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
> have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
> ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)
- Thanks Vinnie. This makes Blue sort of like the Traffic soundtrack Helicopter tune remixed by WOW. Tasty, yes, but mostly just a good remix and not something I'd call an original production. Takes the classic status of this track for me. Notice: FOR ME, so no flaming please.
It must be fun being an engineer / producer behind some famous DJ. Here's a recent example: in the Parks & Wilson Essential Mix there's an superb tech-house track from Phantom Power aka Rob Rives. Further study using Google reveals the man is Danny Tenaglia's engineer. Now, this sounds as he's some sort of coffee unit handler in the studio, whereas you should be reading: the man BEHIND remixes and productions, which are dubbed Danny Tenaglia productions. Well, money does incredible things to people and their minds.
> Well, many times, the people listed in the credits might be the ones
> behind the track in it's original form. BT's "Dreaming" existed
> previously in another form before Kirsty & BT spiced it up for 1999.
> Of course, BT's greatest tracks have many times been collaborations
> (not to take away from his original work!). WOW's "The Gift" uses a
> distinct vocal snippet from Nicole Jackon's "The First Time I Ever
> Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
> credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
> Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W. I'm not
> sure what credits you have, but on the debut album and '97
> single, "Ajare" is credited to T. Siddique/J. Wisternoff/N. Warren.
> I can't comment on how much impact the former individual had because
> I simply don't know, but I suspect it's not much different than the
> following cases: Putnam & Cruise's role in "If I Survive," "Dreaming
> Your Dreams," and Putnam's role in "Finished Symphony," just to give
> a similar example.
> In each example, I'm sure everyone had a unique influence, and that
> the impact of said influence varied widely.