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Re: [Hybrid] Re: "invisible" producers

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  • Antti Mutta
    ... Producing is of course important and mostly means how the written song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by Dundas and Wentworth
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1 4:32 AM
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      > WOW's "The Gift" uses a
      > distinct vocal snippet from Nicole Jackon's "The First Time I Ever
      > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
      > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
      > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W.
      > In each example, I'm sure everyone had a unique influence, and that
      > the impact of said influence varied widely.
      > VH.

      Producing is of course important and mostly means how the written song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing before WOW turned it into the classic piece it is.

      I just find myself wondering about the said sincerity of electric music. Most fans bash Britney and other Billboard top50 artists for not being honest and making the music themselves but how often one considers which DJs or even electronic artists actually rely on the help of some gifted producer lurking in the shadows? How many of the artists in fact are just icons who do their real part when they perform live or DJ?

      -antti
    • c_chilton
      ... I noticed that the Blue guitar string plucks were taken from a bit in Withnail and I (somebit where they re walking the moors) :) Just a pointless bit
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1 7:31 AM
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        > > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
        > > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
        > > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W.

        I noticed that the 'Blue' guitar string plucks were taken from a bit
        in 'Withnail and I' (somebit where they're walking the moors) :)

        Just a pointless bit of crap from me :)

        Have a nice day

        Chuck
      • R. Vogel
        http://www.netadelica.com/withnail/ David Dundas & Rick Wentworth are just given credit for the sample wow used from Withnail and I ....
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1 7:56 AM
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          http://www.netadelica.com/withnail/

          "David Dundas & Rick Wentworth" are just given credit for the sample wow
          used from 'Withnail and I' ....

          > > > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
          > > > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
          > > > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W.
          >
          > I noticed that the 'Blue' guitar string plucks were taken from a bit
          > in 'Withnail and I' (somebit where they're walking the moors) :)
        • Matt A.
          I m not quite sure if this would be considered relevant, but another good example of production is the Pet Shop Boys track For your own good . If anyone has
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 1 2:05 PM
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            I'm not quite sure if this would be considered relevant, but another good
            example of production is the Pet Shop Boys' track "For your own good". If
            anyone has heard the original demo version, it contains the same basic
            notes, but when the song was passed over to Rollo to produce, he gave it
            that signature sound of his made famous with Faithless. It actually sounds
            like it's Rollo featuring Neil Tennant from PSB on vocals, rather than a PSB
            song that Rollo produced.

            Just another example of how production can impact a song. It doesn't take
            away from the impact the original artist(s) had on the song, but it
            definitely shows how production can influence a certain song.
            Matt A.
          • vinnie970
            ... song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing before WOW turned it
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 1 8:57 PM
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              > Producing is of course important and mostly means how the written
              song is sounding and performed, but still if Blue is written by
              Dundas and Wentworth (whoever they are?) it means Blue was existing
              before WOW turned it into the classic piece it is.
              >
              > I just find myself wondering about the said sincerity of electric
              music. Most fans bash Britney and other Billboard top50 artists for
              not being honest and making the music themselves but how often one
              considers which DJs or even electronic artists actually rely on the
              help of some gifted producer lurking in the shadows? How many of the
              artists in fact are just icons who do their real part when they
              perform live or DJ?
              >
              > -antti

              Well, Jody's been twiddling away at knobs since a pre-teen, so I
              figure he's learned a thing or two and is more than "just a DJ."
              Additionally, upon talking to him, he himself openly admitted that
              every idea he's implemented has originated from somewhere else, and
              takes credit for nothing. Top50 acts are many times crafted and
              shaped by corporate forces, so the reliance on others is much more
              prevalent. This is certainly not the case w/ most credible electronic
              acts, as they've many times been known to take the D.I.Y.
              approach. Finally, as it's already been revealed in another
              thread, "Blue" apparently comes down to a sampling issue...something
              WOW have openly done on many occasions. I don't think that implies
              they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body of
              work should put that to rest), however...as the Beatles put it, I
              guess you could say they took "a sad song and," and made "it
              better." ;)

              Just found it on Audiogalaxy and yes, it's the theme from the
              film "Withnail And I" released in '86 and it, in fact, sounds like
              transparent melancholy carnival music. Check for it on Audiogalaxy
              to get an idea what was sampled. "Blue" is basically a cover of this
              w/ a fair amount of melodic alteration (a different key, a unique
              bassline, original breakbeat programming and plenty of ambient
              atmosphere and musicality laid on top). This is akin to "The Fall,"
              which is more or less, a clubby cover, of Coldcut's "Autumn Leaves."

              So, there you have it...I don't think anyone's making any claims that
              can't be backed up.
            • Thomas Hansen
              Well, I guess we can all agree that producers CAN have a lot to do with the sound or song, and they can choose not to. In many cases we don t notice who
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 2 12:59 AM
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                Well, I guess we can all agree that producers CAN have a lot to do with the sound or song, and they can choose not to. In many cases we don't notice who produces the music, and other cases we do. Rollo, the guy behaind Faithless has his own stamp on the music he touch, most Faithless Fans know which. The Hybrid guys usually also have a recognizeable sound hidden in the music... Well, you know what I mean. And sometimes we can just hear that it aint the right touch in the music...
                The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi... ( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer. OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what impact a producer can have.
                In other cases, the producer might choose, or be ordered to do what the band ask him to do, that is the cases where the band is the main men behind their music, and don't want a producer to make their "sound" ( They are unlike Faithless... )

                Well, all my stories lead to the fact: Producers can and can not have a big impact on the sound. But that is up to the people who make that particular song to decide.

                Best regards

                Thomas Hansen
              • propellerheadcase
                I thought Bon Jovi were produced by Desmond Child, they certainly were at one stage. And he has most recently produced Ricky Martin. And Mutt Lange produced
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 2 5:53 AM
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                  I thought Bon Jovi were produced by Desmond Child, they certainly
                  were at one stage. And he has most recently produced Ricky Martin.
                  And Mutt Lange produced Def Leppard and Bryan Adams (let's play spot
                  the backing-vocal similarities), AC/DC and Billy Ocean.

                  --- In HybridUK@y..., "Thomas Hansen" <thomas_h_18@h...> wrote:
                  > The only example I can think of right now is actually Bonjovi...
                  ( ! ) They usually have a guy called Obie O'brian or something like
                  that as the bands producer, but then on their last album, there was
                  this song IT'S MY LIFE which sounded so... different... Not
                  Bonjovish. And it turns out they used a producer who earlier helped
                  Backstreet Boys do a couple of songs... Therefore the catchy, almost
                  childish pop song that IT'S MY LIFE is... Because of the producer.
                  OK, a bit off topic, but still I was just trying to explain what
                  impact a producer can have.
                • c_chilton
                  ... of ... Certainly so! Wow saw an oppurtunity to make a beautiful song and took it. Why deprive us the music listening public the pleasure of ever hearing
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 2 9:56 AM
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                    > I don't think that implies
                    > they've nullified their talent (taking a look at their entire body
                    of
                    > work should put that to rest),

                    Certainly so! Wow saw an oppurtunity to make a beautiful song and
                    took it. Why deprive us the music listening public the pleasure of
                    ever hearing such a tune simply because of the 'issues' in taking a
                    sample.

                    To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related, some
                    poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and what
                    he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
                    Because they can't.

                    Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
                    vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
                    people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
                    have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
                    times.

                    ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)


                    Chuck
                  • propellerheadcase
                    I used to be in the anti-sample brigade back in my very-metal days but now I see it as an artform that Steinski, Bomb the Bass, DJ Shadow, the Chemical
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 3 5:12 AM
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                      I used to be in the anti-sample brigade back in my very-metal days
                      but now I see it as an artform that Steinski, Bomb the Bass, DJ
                      Shadow, the Chemical Brothers, Fatboy Slim and the Avalanches have
                      successively taken to new plateaus. I personally believe it is
                      harder to force two samples to co-exist than it is to write two
                      complimentary melody lines.

                      In Fatboy's case it isn't plagiarism for the simple fact that he's
                      not copying a pre-existent idea he is physically copying the original
                      material into a new context - that's a BIG difference.

                      I had a thought on the whole sampling/copying front the other day:

                      No-one would denigrate Beethoven for his use of traditional French
                      and Russian music in the '1812 Overture', would they. But he
                      certainly sampled/re-contextualised pre-existent material.

                      --- In HybridUK@y..., "c_chilton" <c_chilton@y...> wrote:
                      > To go even mooooooooore off topic, but still kinnnnnda related,
                      some
                      > poeple say Fatboy Slim in the biggest plagurist of them all, and
                      what
                      > he does anybody with half a brain could do. So why don't they?
                      > Because they can't.
                      >
                      > Personally I think one big element to being a musical maestro is
                      > vision, in some ways recognising potential in something ordinary
                      > people would just throw away.. All great musicians (FBS, Wow, etc)
                      > have this talent, they just use it in different ways at different
                      > times.
                      >
                      > ummmmm, I know i'm not making any sense now so I'm off :)
                      >
                      >
                      > Chuck
                    • Antti Mutta
                      Thanks Vinnie. This makes Blue sort of like the Traffic soundtrack Helicopter tune remixed by WOW. Tasty, yes, but mostly just a good remix and not something
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 5 5:01 AM
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                        Thanks Vinnie. This makes Blue sort of like the Traffic soundtrack Helicopter tune remixed by WOW. Tasty, yes, but mostly just a good remix and not something I'd call an original production. Takes the classic status of this track for me. Notice: FOR ME, so no flaming please.

                        It must be fun being an engineer / producer behind some famous DJ. Here's a recent example: in the Parks & Wilson Essential Mix there's an superb tech-house track from Phantom Power aka Rob Rives. Further study using Google reveals the man is Danny Tenaglia's engineer. Now, this sounds as he's some sort of coffee unit handler in the studio, whereas you should be reading: the man BEHIND remixes and productions, which are dubbed Danny Tenaglia productions. Well, money does incredible things to people and their minds.

                        -antti

                        > Well, many times, the people listed in the credits might be the ones
                        > behind the track in it's original form. BT's "Dreaming" existed
                        > previously in another form before Kirsty & BT spiced it up for 1999.
                        > Of course, BT's greatest tracks have many times been collaborations
                        > (not to take away from his original work!). WOW's "The Gift" uses a
                        > distinct vocal snippet from Nicole Jackon's "The First Time I Ever
                        > Saw Your Face" (used w/ permission). According to the
                        > credits, "Blue" appears to be written by David Dundas & Rick
                        > Wentworth, but the production is clearly credited to W.O.W. I'm not
                        > sure what credits you have, but on the debut album and '97
                        > single, "Ajare" is credited to T. Siddique/J. Wisternoff/N. Warren.
                        > I can't comment on how much impact the former individual had because
                        > I simply don't know, but I suspect it's not much different than the
                        > following cases: Putnam & Cruise's role in "If I Survive," "Dreaming
                        > Your Dreams," and Putnam's role in "Finished Symphony," just to give
                        > a similar example.
                        >
                        > In each example, I'm sure everyone had a unique influence, and that
                        > the impact of said influence varied widely.
                        >
                        > VH.
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