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Re: [Hybrid] Re: Question for y'all (new album)

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  • scott harcus
    Spot on Stuart!!! - (your first point) - Taking music past where you found it. Scott. ...
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 30, 2002
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      Spot on Stuart!!! - (your first point) - Taking music past where you found
      it.

      Scott.

      Stuart Bruce wrote:

      > > "The Gift" was genre-defying in that it fused melodic trance, housey
      > > overtones and breakbeat with an angelic vocal to rapturous effect.
      >
      > Sunscreem were mixing melodic trance with breakbeats and a rock attitude
      > topped with a vocal that can send shivers down your spine back in 1991.
      >
      > The Orb were doing something using similar elements but with extra chill
      > around the same time too (no breakbeat, but everything else).
      >
      > Art Of Noise were mixing house beats with orchestral experimentation
      > back in the 1980s- Anne Dudley is still a master of the orchestral
      > trade.
      <snip>
    • Matthew Craig
      I ll try to not make this sound like badgering Vince because I ve done that to no end - as others on this list might tell you. I just want to say that there
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 30, 2002
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        I'll try to not make this sound like badgering Vince because I've done
        that to no end - as others on this list might tell you. I just want to say
        that there are no absolutes in music. Everyone here jumped in at different
        points for different reasons.

        "You definitely need Sunscreem's "Change Or Die" or "O3" then. While
        you're shopping you might also want to get an Opus III album if it's
        haunting melodies you're after."

        Funny you should mention that.. I was about to point out that (to me)
        "The Gift" really just seems like an obvious evolution from songs like "Sea
        People" or "I Talk to Wind".

        Perception is everything.

        --Matthew Craig (Flashpoint)
      • propellerheadcase
        Nor does it take an intellectual much to see that Way Out West doesn t have an infinite bag-o -tricks either and,
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 30, 2002
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          <disclaimer: I AM NOT picking a fight :D>

          Nor does it take an intellectual much to see that Way Out West
          doesn't have an infinite bag-o'-tricks either and, like Hybrid, it is
          ultimately the juxtaposition of these sounds, ideas and tricks within
          the framework of someone else's design that refreshes the idea (i.e.
          remixing someone else and putting these ideas into play in their
          track).

          It's contextual, an idea doesn't need to be new to be exciting,
          necessarily. Hell, a very high proportion of music, these days, is
          all about re-contextualising old ideas - it's called sampling.

          Let's look at this 'orchestral' business. There is nothing new about
          orchestral manoeuvres (well lit or otherwise :p), breakbeats are much
          newer but still pretty old. The fusion of these two elements? It's
          certainly a good idea but to quibble over how far foward in the mix
          the orchestral bits are to define how ground-breaking the idea is
          might be a bit much. Whilst not Nu-Skool breaks does Massive
          Attack's sampling of Unfinished Symphony pre-date the Way Out West
          examples that Vince cites? I think so.

          Ask a classical music snob the difference between Massive Attack and
          Rob Dougan they'd stare at you blankly, but most here could probably
          give a reasonable dissertation. That said they are closely related.

          The WOW/Hybrid take on introducing orchestral melodies into
          Progressive/Breakbeat are also pretty closely related in the grand
          scheme of things and it is only your willingness to listen for
          subtlety and nuance, as a fan, that allows you to pick apart the
          differences to such a degree. That aforementioned classical snob
          will just look at you like you're contention is that Bond are a
          legitimate outlet for classical music.

          (Seeing as how everyone else seems to have a dead-horse to flog:
          Have I taken a moment to remind you all that the PropellerHeads very
          successfully married cinematic/orchestral scoring with a mixture of
          sampled and live percussion to great effect? Note that SpyBreak was
          released in '97, and that they are based in Bath, not far from
          Bristol:D)

          BT, on the other hand, more obviously uses his classical training for
          the writing of his melody-lines and so forth, but not in the
          classical medium. He's all about layers and textures, as are WOW and
          Hybrid, but he's less overt about the 'classical' aspect of it. I
          think the only example of orchestral backing on Movement in Still
          Life is 'GodSpeed', co-written with Mr. Truman.

          I like all three artists mentioned, WOW would probably be last on the
          list if I had to nail them all down to an order, but then again Mr.
          Warren is the only person I've seen DJ live and he was F#@king great.

          I guess we must all agree to disagree but we must also bear in mind
          that whilst in this context our arguments seem polar, in the broader
          musical spectrum we're on the same damn team :D

          --- In HybridUK@y..., "vinnie970" <vinnie970@y...> wrote:
          > Right, but as I said above...the manner in which an artist
          approaches
          > production can be reinventive. While I don't think Wide Angle has
          > aged well, I would agree that it was genre-defying in the way it
          > fused orchestral & electronic elements in such an overt way.
          > However, it doesn't take an intellectual to recognize the heavy
          > recycling of those orchestral parts and breakbeat loops in many
          other
          > remixes that were to come (my MAIN beef w/ Hybird). They may have
          > been introducing subtle new production elements but they weren't
          > enough to keep a discerning music listener's attention for more
          than
          > a fortnight.
        • vinnie970
          ... housey ... effect. ... attitude ... 1991. Yes, I have O3...too bad they re fallen far from that throne. Anyhow, I d agree with your assessement of their
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 30, 2002
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            --- In HybridUK@y..., Stuart Bruce <breaks@a...> wrote:
            > On Tue 29 Jan, vinnie970 wrote:
            > > "The Gift" was genre-defying in that it fused melodic trance,
            housey
            > > overtones and breakbeat with an angelic vocal to rapturous
            effect.
            >
            > Sunscreem were mixing melodic trance with breakbeats and a rock
            attitude
            > topped with a vocal that can send shivers down your spine back in
            1991.

            Yes, I have O3...too bad they're fallen far from that throne.
            Anyhow, I'd agree with your assessement of their style, and perhaps I
            used the word too lightly when I said "redefining." And as far as
            the vocals sending shivvers down your spine, that's debatable. "O3"
            was heavily influenced by the rave culture...I'm sorry but as much as
            you don't like the vocals, "The Gift" DID signal the coming of a new
            genre (borrowing from other disparaging genres, and fusing them in a
            way NOT done before).

            > The Orb were doing something using similar elements but with extra
            chill
            > around the same time too (no breakbeat, but everything else).

            Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld? Good album, I need to dust it off.
            They were doing their own genre morphing/redefinitions). I don't
            recall anything that sounded remotely similar to "The Gift." "Little
            Fluffy Clouds" is as close as they come (like u said, no breakbeat or
            DNB elements).

            > Art Of Noise were mixing house beats with orchestral experimentation
            > back in the 1980s- Anne Dudley is still a master of the orchestral
            > trade.

            Before my time, but seeing as technology was MUCH more limited then,
            I don't see how it applies. "Music 4 Libraries" was more breakbeat-
            influenced than it was house.

            > I have quite a narrow music collection and I'm sure there are many
            more
            > examples than just the above of tracks akin to "The Gift"
            (especially),
            > that predate it.

            Well, those examples don't accurately apply, IMHO.

            > "Genre-defining" and "reinventing" are two terms that get used a
            lot in
            > music and are very, very, very rarely actually true. For every music
            > release, there is almost always something that has come before it,
            which
            > has paved the way for that release and while the new release may
            improve
            > and add new ideas, calling something "genre-defining" is something
            you
            > would need a *lot* of proof to back up- and which can be unproven
            in a
            > moment, as soon as somebody cites an earlier example.

            I agree with this...it's all a constant evolution, but sometimes a
            song is released that represents a paradigm shift in the way tracks
            have been made prior. In the case of "The Gift," using a drum n' bass-
            styled bassline underneath a house-influenced breakbeat.

            > > I agree their new album is more of an evolution than a
            reinvention,
            > > but I've never heard a pop song quite like "Mindcircus" before.
            >
            > You definitely need Sunscreem's "Change Or Die" or "O3" then. While
            > you're shopping you might also want to get an Opus III album if it's
            > haunting melodies you're after.

            I have both Sunscreem albums, and consider them some of the most
            influential from that era (hence, why I'm on the Sunscreem list,
            Stuart). Personally, those albums don't particularly spring to mind
            when I think of "Mindcircus."

            > > Finally, the reason you hear me playing the same old tune is
            because
            > > I feel these artists have fallen similar paths, but one has ended
            up
            > > on the higher road. Perhaps if I keep shouting, someone who
            hasn't
            > > even bothered looking beyond the Hybrid sound on the Distinctive
            > > roster will check out the object of my affection(there are nearly
            400
            > > on this list after all), and WOW will get more credit that I feel
            > > they deserve.
            >
            > But you're the boy who cried wolf, Vince; every week you come along
            and
            > shout "Way Out West are brilliant!", and quickly the townspeople of
            the
            > list become bored of it. Then before you know it Way Out West might
            > release the ultimate orchestral breaks anthem, you come along to
            this
            > list trying to tell everybody about it, and instead of listening to
            you,
            > they decide to feed you to their pet wolf instead. Luckily, after a
            > recent gobbling of Riding Hood, if you're lucky the wolf might not
            be
            > hungry enough to eat more than your legs. (A bit of a bending of the
            > story but the point is there).

            Well, this list doesn't cover the entire fanbase, and if they're
            going to let 1 loud-mouthed fan dissuade them from checking out
            anything for themselves, then God help them. Secondly, I don't think
            I want any orchestral breaks anthem from them...they'd be accused of
            copying Hybrid unless it was approached in a new & inventive way.
            Third, please save the cute nursery rhymes for the classroom.

            VH

            [[[ Ally says: I liked the nursery rhyme. ]]]
          • vinnie970
            I was waiting for you to respond, Propellerheadcase. ;) ... is ... within ... (i.e. ... No, you re right, certainly not infinite, but in my own listening
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 31, 2002
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              I was waiting for you to respond, Propellerheadcase. ;)

              propellerheadcase wrote:

              > <disclaimer: I AM NOT picking a fight :D>
              >
              > Nor does it take an intellectual much to see that Way Out West
              > doesn't have an infinite bag-o'-tricks either and, like Hybrid, it
              is
              > ultimately the juxtaposition of these sounds, ideas and tricks
              within
              > the framework of someone else's design that refreshes the idea
              (i.e.
              > remixing someone else and putting these ideas into play in their
              > track).

              No, you're right, certainly not infinite, but in my own listening
              experiences, one has outdone the other. I'm one of the few on this
              list who think so, obviously (dead horse so to speak).

              With time, however, bag of tricks expand, due to the acquiring of new
              gear and newly discovered techniques (obviously goes for all artists
              mentioned).

              > It's contextual, an idea doesn't need to be new to be exciting,
              > necessarily. Hell, a very high proportion of music, these days, is
              > all about re-contextualising old ideas - it's called sampling.

              Inventive sampling is always a treat...both Hybrid & WOW have done
              some wicked morphing of natural vocal sounds, for instance. In the
              case of beat programming, it seems like Hybrid have been beating a
              dead horse, so to speak. It could be said the 4 to the floor
              rhythmic pattern (something that WOW have capitalized on) has been
              worked to death, but I personally find that structure to have the
              potential to offer a more engulfing listening experience with a
              greater depth. In the realm of dj-friendly dance music, there is
              only so much one can do with beat manipulation, and the standard
              tried & true breakbeat pattern can interfere with certain moods if
              it's too cut-up. Straight up breakbeat is a blast and can obviously
              be as straightforward and choppy as the artist requires. In the
              realm of the trance & breaks fusion, I like fluid breakbeats that
              don't sound contrived (which is how many Hybrid breakbeat loops have
              become to me).

              Kudos to Hybrid for adding a punchy kick on Radiohead's "Everything
              in it's Right Place." I haven't been a fan of their 4/4 stuff in the
              past, because it seems dry, but they reached a new level of success
              with that mix. (yes, I'm saluting Hybrid :)

              And in regards to WOW as a pioneer of anything, I take this quote
              from the February 2001 issue of Revolution magazine's "The New Music
              100" article (Hybrid charted in this same list as Ally mentioned not
              long ago):

              "(#31)FAR OUT: Breakbeats are usually associated with the
              breakdancers, a lot of standing around (looking at the breakdancers),
              and a good deal of head bobbing. But Bristol, England duo Nick Warren
              and Jody Wiesternoff (a.k.a. Way Out West) are the leaders of making
              the breakbeat music, melodic, uptempo and perfect for the dancefloor.
              Some call it progressive breakbeat-we call it fresh. If you're tired
              of cheesy trance and boring house, try this instead.

              Fathers to: Hybrid, BT, Paul Van Dyk's breakbeat sound, Moby's break
              excursions on Play"

              I would obviously agree that the author is spot on, but I'm sure many
              on this list are perhaps offended and would have a few words of
              dissent in response to it. Once again, more perspectives and
              opinions come into play, but I'm assuming the authors have been
              following WOW thru the course of their tenure and are acknowledging
              that more recent trends are based, at least IN PART, on what WOW was
              doing with breakbeats circa' 94-96. And it can be said that WOW
              themselves were influenced by the early breakbeat/hardcore producers
              like Prodigy, Altern-8, Manix and the like, because it most certainly
              is true.

              > Let's look at this 'orchestral' business. There is nothing new
              about
              > orchestral manoeuvres (well lit or otherwise :p), breakbeats are
              much
              > newer but still pretty old. The fusion of these two elements?
              It's
              > certainly a good idea but to quibble over how far foward in the mix
              > the orchestral bits are to define how ground-breaking the idea is
              > might be a bit much. Whilst not Nu-Skool breaks does Massive
              > Attack's sampling of Unfinished Symphony pre-date the Way Out West
              > examples that Vince cites? I think so.

              Ah, but that's trip hop, is it not? A difference in tempo makes a
              world of difference in the general feel of the track. "The Gift" is
              around 130 bpm & has no inkling of orchestral involvement,
              anyhow...more or less, it was laced with organic samples here &
              there, an angelic vocal, a breakbeat, a dnb bassline, soft pads and
              other bits and bobs. "Music For Libraries" ('94), an instrumental
              number, features a sampled orchestra to great effect and yet, it was
              done uniquely with respect to Massive Attack's "Uninished Symphony"
              which used a linear orchestral backdrop throughout the entire track
              (much in the same way Hybrid used it in "Finished Symphony").

              > The WOW/Hybrid take on introducing orchestral melodies into
              > Progressive/Breakbeat are also pretty closely related in the grand
              > scheme of things and it is only your willingness to listen for
              > subtlety and nuance, as a fan, that allows you to pick apart the
              > differences to such a degree. That aforementioned classical snob
              > will just look at you like you're contention is that Bond are a
              > legitimate outlet for classical music.

              Yes, there are similarities indeed...However, I don't feel inclined
              to deeply analyze most Hybrid works as I once did, because I get
              the "I've heard all this before" feeling one too many times and have
              the tendency to tune them out (psychological factors coming into
              play). I've burnt out on a bit of the WOW as well (from
              overlistening), but I personally see a larger bit of diversity when I
              take into account the complete body of both artists' work. Granted,
              WOW haven't produced any French hip hop, but Hybrid haven't done any
              ambient either. :)

              > (Seeing as how everyone else seems to have a dead-horse to flog:
              > Have I taken a moment to remind you all that the PropellerHeads
              very
              > successfully married cinematic/orchestral scoring with a mixture of
              > sampled and live percussion to great effect? Note that SpyBreak
              was
              > released in '97, and that they are based in Bath, not far from
              > Bristol:D)

              Yes, I recall that as being quite the enjoyable album, but not one
              that had much longevity for me, personally. However, I will dig it
              out and listen for the said nuances and see if I have a newfound
              appreciation. I do recall some stellar singles from that album like
              the one you mentioned.

              > BT, on the other hand, more obviously uses his classical training
              for
              > the writing of his melody-lines and so forth, but not in the
              > classical medium. He's all about layers and textures, as are WOW
              and
              > Hybrid, but he's less overt about the 'classical' aspect of it. I
              > think the only example of orchestral backing on Movement in Still
              > Life is 'GodSpeed', co-written with Mr. Truman.

              I'd say there isn't much genuine orchestral backing on Intensify
              either other than Part 2 of the title track, and there's absolutely
              none on WOW's debut. All three artists attempt to create grandiose,
              melancholic, mystical and/or reflective moods with the use of
              melody. In scores of their remixes, Hybrid have generally used those
              orchestral sessions with Putnam to aid them in creating said moods.
              (IMHO, excessively so...please remember, IMHO)

              > I like all three artists mentioned, WOW would probably be last on
              the
              > list if I had to nail them all down to an order, but then again Mr.
              > Warren is the only person I've seen DJ live and he was F#@king
              great.

              ah, well, for me, it would be completely opposite, as u well would
              have guessed. I've come to this conclusion based on hearing most
              work from all 3 artists. I beg you to do the same if you're lacking
              in any one artist's material.

              > I guess we must all agree to disagree but we must also bear in mind
              > that whilst in this context our arguments seem polar, in the
              broader
              > musical spectrum we're on the same damn team :D

              Good point. Everyone has their own degree of bias...some just show it
              off more than others. :-D (no low blows, please, Stuart).
            • Stuart Bruce
              ... Really? Then tell me what musical elements, or content, or style, or *anything* makes Mindcircus (2000) the incredibly original piece you seem to think
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 31, 2002
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                On Thu 31 Jan, vinnie970 wrote:
                > > > I agree their new album is more of an evolution than a
                > > > reinvention, but I've never heard a pop song quite like
                > > > "Mindcircus" before.
                > >
                > > You definitely need Sunscreem's "Change Or Die" or "O3" then. While
                > > you're shopping you might also want to get an Opus III album if it's
                > > haunting melodies you're after.
                >
                > I have both Sunscreem albums, and consider them some of the most
                > influential from that era (hence, why I'm on the Sunscreem list,
                > Stuart). Personally, those albums don't particularly spring to mind
                > when I think of "Mindcircus."

                Really? Then tell me what musical elements, or content, or style, or
                *anything* makes "Mindcircus" (2000) the incredibly original piece you
                seem to think it is ("I've never heard a pop song quite like
                'Mindcircus' before"), compared to Sunscreem's "Chasing Dreams" (1993),
                which is a different basic song (obviously), but musically a *very*
                close relation (especially when you consider that they were made seven
                years apart).

                I think we're just going to have to leave it at the fact that you think
                Way Out West are musical gods and several people here seem to think you
                have a very blinkered view on that matter.

                > Third, please save the cute nursery rhymes for the classroom.

                Ah, the sign of a man who's getting impatient at being 'picked on'...

                Stuart.

                --
                Stuart Bruce
                stuart@...
              • vinnie970
                ... you ... (1993), ... seven ... For one, they re completely different tunes...of course, since they re pop songs, they follow a SOMEWHAT similar pattern
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 31, 2002
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                  > Really? Then tell me what musical elements, or content, or style, or
                  > *anything* makes "Mindcircus" (2000) the incredibly original piece
                  you
                  > seem to think it is ("I've never heard a pop song quite like
                  > 'Mindcircus' before"), compared to Sunscreem's "Chasing Dreams"
                  (1993),
                  > which is a different basic song (obviously), but musically a *very*
                  > close relation (especially when you consider that they were made
                  seven
                  > years apart).

                  For one, they're completely different tunes...of course, since
                  they're pop songs, they follow a SOMEWHAT similar pattern which would
                  be obvious to anyone (verse -> chorus -> verse -> chorus -> bridge
                  etc.), but they're no more alike than any other pair of electronic
                  pop songs (other than having female vocals & using electronics).
                  But, since you want to pick it apart, the piano in "Chasing Dreams"
                  is synthesised like many tunes from that era were, the breakbeat loop
                  (like many on OS) is one that has been sampled countless times since
                  it's release, the choruses are completely different (one is
                  completely transparent musically, while the other keeps most of the
                  instrumentation intact), the content of the lyrics are completely
                  different, "Mindcircus" takes a 180-degree after the first chorus for
                  a phrase by introducing a dark clarinet interlude (nothing found like
                  that on "Chasing Dreams"), there are vibes & warmer pads used
                  on "Mindcircus" and it obviously sounds more polished having been
                  produced 7-8 years later. Shall I go on? No, I'm sure we're boring
                  everyone now.

                  > I think we're just going to have to leave it at the fact that you
                  think
                  > Way Out West are musical gods and several people here seem to think
                  you
                  > have a very blinkered view on that matter.

                  You can face whatever "fact" your mind leads you to believe. Having
                  already said I don't think everything wow is perfect, there's nothing
                  more to say. Do I like them better than Hybrid? yes, I admit that,
                  but that is all I admit to.

                  > > Third, please save the cute nursery rhymes for the classroom.
                  >
                  > Ah, the sign of a man who's getting impatient at being 'picked
                  on'...

                  No, I'd prefer you to stay on-topic and stop veering metaphorically
                  off-topic to try to make yourself look witty.

                  [[[ Ally says: Right then, time to take this thread off-list please. Thank you muchly. ]]]
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