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Re: [Hybrid] MSF (was: re: Way Out West / Don't Look Now)

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  • Antti Mutta
    Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated (once again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I really have to say I
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 17, 2004
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      Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated (once
      again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I really
      have to say I find it in many ways lacking the spirit and musical innovation
      Wide Angle showed.

      True, there's a few great tracks that qualify as proper songs (eg. True To
      Form, I'm Still Awake) but they are scarce (breaks are scarce too as the
      lyrics go in True To Form :). It's so hard to overcome the failures that are
      Know Your Enemy, Marrakech and We Are In Control, which are in essence,
      nothing but exercises in scoring for an action film or video game.

      Coming from just a session of listening to both MSF and Wide Angle, I really
      have to say that musically MSF has nothing on Wide Angle. I know it's a
      somewhat silly argument, but overall MSF is such a hollow and boring album,
      I've found that I, being a long-time Hybrid follower, have listened to the
      whole album for maybe less than 10 times. I think it's fair to question why
      that is? Maybe I don't get the complex nature of MSF? Hardly.

      Is it purely a question of taste, then? Partly I am sure this is true, but
      whatever you people think, I believe in something called absolute quality,
      something which taste has nothing to do with. It's like when you listen to
      someone who is really highly talented and you can tell it works perfectly
      even if you don't like that particular style. Same with any artform. There's
      a difference with being a matter of tastes and quality of performance. And I
      am not just talking about technical know-how.

      MSF falls into many of the same traps as WOWs latest album, with too many
      flawed performances and experiments with styles that are not in the artists'
      forte.

      But hey, there's always the next album.. Maybe a more minimal approach with
      less film portfolio stuff would be a good way to go. And it wouldn't hurt to
      get a singer whose voice actually delivers :)

      Here's hoping there's still a decent or even great electronic music album
      coming out this year.

      -antti



      > > > It's funny, Antti, but I think in the case of Hybrid the
      > transition
      > > > from Wide Angle to Morning Sci-Fi is to a less populist sound,
      > IMO.
      > >
      > > In case of Hybrid, they might have gone to a less populist sound,
      > yes, but
      > > they also went to a direction that is less musical or interesting.
      >
      > I didn't want to get into this argument...but I can't not
      > say "what?!" to Antti's comment!
      >
      > In what way is in less musical or interesting (to you)?
      >
      > Ally
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      >
      > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
      > http://www.hybrid-group.com
      >
      > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Scott Moore
      sounds to me that electronic just isn t your style of music Antti? You slam both Hybrid and WOW yet IMO they are two of the better producers of electronic
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 19, 2004
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        sounds to me that electronic just isn't your style of music Antti? You slam both Hybrid and WOW yet IMO they are two of the better producers of electronic music out there... but even still, in your argument you seem to not except that people have opinions that don't jive with yours... and I quote:

        "Is it purely a question of taste, then? Partly I am sure this is true, but
        whatever you people think, I believe in something called absolute quality,
        something which taste has nothing to do with."

        It is this kind of arrogance that really makes your argument "hollow". You imply that none of us really have a keene since of taste and can't possibly enjoy know what "quality" music is. Please.... spare us with the "I know music and therefore am more superior to anyone" attitude. If you would just state you don't like a particular song/album then just state that. Maybe give your opinion of why you don't like it, but don't sit and act like you are the ultimate expert in what is quality music and what is not quality music.

        I have read all of the replies in this discussion and have stayed out of the way, but your attitude in this reply just really made me want to comment.

        cheers...

        PS... did I mention I haven't taken out the CDR in my car stereo of the annie nightengale set the WOW did (that is on hybridized) with their new stuff, in about a month now? I can't seem to get enough... and it is rare that I listen to an album over and over and over again like that... really... no seriously... :)


        >Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated (once
        >again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I really
        >have to say I find it in many ways lacking the spirit and musical innovation
        >Wide Angle showed.
        <snip>
      • vinnie970
        Not with the high, unattainable standards you ve set, granted I agree with you on MSF. I think WOW s new album trumps it, tho , as they actually do heavily
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 19, 2004
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          Not with the high, unattainable standards you've set, granted I agree
          with you on MSF. I think WOW's new album trumps it, tho', as they
          actually do heavily include elements they do best, and that is the
          pouring on of melodic layers and organic instruments. And transparent
          is not the equivalent of hollow, because if that were the case, both
          Hybrid's and WOW's latest albums qualify. ;)

          And I absolutely agreed about the triple header of Marrakech, Know
          Your Enemy (a shadow of the excellent "Kill City"), and especially We
          Are In Control, one of the most hideous pieces of "music" they've ever
          done.

          > Here's hoping there's still a decent or even great electronic music
          album
          > coming out this year.
          >
          > -antti
          >
          >
          >
          > > > > It's funny, Antti, but I think in the case of Hybrid the
          > > transition
          > > > > from Wide Angle to Morning Sci-Fi is to a less populist sound,
          > > IMO.
          > > >
          > > > In case of Hybrid, they might have gone to a less populist sound,
          > > yes, but
          > > > they also went to a direction that is less musical or interesting.
          > >
          > > I didn't want to get into this argument...but I can't not
          > > say "what?!" to Antti's comment!
          > >
          > > In what way is in less musical or interesting (to you)?
          > >
          > > Ally
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          > >
          > > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
          > > http://www.hybrid-group.com
          > >
          > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • Chaz Schlueter
          Antti s posts are getting less intersteign to me... J?K Chaz
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 19, 2004
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            Antti's posts are getting less intersteign to me... J?K

            Chaz

            --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...> wrote:
            > Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated (once
            > again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I really
            > have to say I find it in many ways lacking the spirit and musical innovation
            > Wide Angle showed.
            >
            > True, there's a few great tracks that qualify as proper songs (eg. True To
            > Form, I'm Still Awake) but they are scarce (breaks are scarce too as the
            > lyrics go in True To Form :). It's so hard to overcome the failures that are
            > Know Your Enemy, Marrakech and We Are In Control, which are in essence,
            > nothing but exercises in scoring for an action film or video game.
            >
            > Coming from just a session of listening to both MSF and Wide Angle, I really
            > have to say that musically MSF has nothing on Wide Angle. I know it's a
            > somewhat silly argument, but overall MSF is such a hollow and boring album,
            > I've found that I, being a long-time Hybrid follower, have listened to the
            > whole album for maybe less than 10 times. I think it's fair to question why
            > that is? Maybe I don't get the complex nature of MSF? Hardly.
            >
            > Is it purely a question of taste, then? Partly I am sure this is true, but
            > whatever you people think, I believe in something called absolute quality,
            > something which taste has nothing to do with. It's like when you listen to
            > someone who is really highly talented and you can tell it works perfectly
            > even if you don't like that particular style. Same with any artform. There's
            > a difference with being a matter of tastes and quality of performance. And I
            > am not just talking about technical know-how.
            >
            > MSF falls into many of the same traps as WOWs latest album, with too many
            > flawed performances and experiments with styles that are not in the artists'
            > forte.
            >
            > But hey, there's always the next album.. Maybe a more minimal approach with
            > less film portfolio stuff would be a good way to go. And it wouldn't hurt to
            > get a singer whose voice actually delivers :)
            >
            > Here's hoping there's still a decent or even great electronic music album
            > coming out this year.
            >
            > -antti
            >
            >
            >
            > > > > It's funny, Antti, but I think in the case of Hybrid the
            > > transition
            > > > > from Wide Angle to Morning Sci-Fi is to a less populist sound,
            > > IMO.
            > > >
            > > > In case of Hybrid, they might have gone to a less populist sound,
            > > yes, but
            > > > they also went to a direction that is less musical or interesting.
            > >
            > > I didn't want to get into this argument...but I can't not
            > > say "what?!" to Antti's comment!
            > >
            > > In what way is in less musical or interesting (to you)?
            > >
            > > Ally
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            > >
            > > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
            > > http://www.hybrid-group.com
            > >
            > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • Chaz Schlueter
            LOL BTW...wasnt the Annie Nightengale set the DJ set and the Live At Glostonbury set the one with the new stuff? Chaz ... and WOW yet IMO they are two of the
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 20, 2004
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              LOL

              BTW...wasnt the Annie Nightengale set the DJ set and the Live At Glostonbury set the one
              with the new stuff?

              Chaz

              --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, Scott Moore <wizum2003@y...> wrote:
              > sounds to me that electronic just isn't your style of music Antti? You slam both Hybrid
              and WOW yet IMO they are two of the better producers of electronic music out there... but
              even still, in your argument you seem to not except that people have opinions that don't
              jive with yours... and I quote:
              >
              > "Is it purely a question of taste, then? Partly I am sure this is true, but
              > whatever you people think, I believe in something called absolute quality,
              > something which taste has nothing to do with."
              >
              > It is this kind of arrogance that really makes your argument "hollow". You imply that
              none of us really have a keene since of taste and can't possibly enjoy know what "quality"
              music is. Please.... spare us with the "I know music and therefore am more superior to
              anyone" attitude. If you would just state you don't like a particular song/album then just
              state that. Maybe give your opinion of why you don't like it, but don't sit and act like you
              are the ultimate expert in what is quality music and what is not quality music.
              >
              > I have read all of the replies in this discussion and have stayed out of the way, but your
              attitude in this reply just really made me want to comment.
              >
              > cheers...
              >
              > PS... did I mention I haven't taken out the CDR in my car stereo of the annie nightengale
              set the WOW did (that is on hybridized) with their new stuff, in about a month now? I can't
              seem to get enough... and it is rare that I listen to an album over and over and over again
              like that... really... no seriously... :)
              >
              >
              > >Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated (once
              > >again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I really
              > >have to say I find it in many ways lacking the spirit and musical innovation
              > >Wide Angle showed.
              > <snip>
            • Scott Moore
              Yes... it was... and I still have it in my car stereo :) the second song on the set I am not crazy about but the rest, I think, is very good stuff...
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 20, 2004
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                Yes... it was... and I still have it in my car stereo :)

                the second song on the set I am not crazy about but the rest, I think, is very good stuff...


                Chaz Schlueter <chazsch@...> wrote:
                >LOL
                >
                >BTW...wasnt the Annie Nightengale set the DJ set and the Live At Glostonbury >set the one
                >with the new stuff?
                >
                >Chaz
              • Antti Mutta
                ... slam both well, I ve been a fan of the electronic since I was introduced to listening music (other than children s songs) at the tender age of 5 or
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 20, 2004
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                  > sounds to me that electronic just isn't your style of music Antti? You
                  slam both

                  well, I've been a fan of the electronic since I was introduced to listening
                  music (other than children's songs) at the tender age of 5 or something. One
                  of the tapes I listened to over and over again when I was seven years old
                  was a rap mixtape, which featured the likes of Grandmaster Flash, Whodini
                  etc :) ok, hey who cares.. I know what I am, but I think calling me a hater
                  of electronic would be a little extreme :)

                  > It is this kind of arrogance that really makes your argument "hollow".
                  You imply that > none of us really have a keene since of taste and can't
                  possibly enjoy know what
                  > "quality" music is. Please.... spare us with the "I know music and
                  therefore am more

                  I've always wondered how come respected movie critics are able to pick the
                  same movies, which the majority then has hard time watching and why the
                  mainstream goes for Bruckheimer/Simpson or ID4 movies? And it's not like
                  this applies to movies only. Just check the music critics. Guess critics
                  don't know what is quality, they just rub each others backs in some secret
                  clubs where they decide what's the next artsy cool thing, then? Or could it
                  be that there's actually some standards to things? Whatever, I know only
                  what I LIKE and it just so happens for some weird reason that I think my
                  opinion is the best out there :) I have to live with it you know :)

                  >nightengale set the WOW did (that is on hybridized) with their new stuff,
                  in about a

                  One of the best mixes EVER. Why is it that the radio broadcast mixes always
                  tend to be better than the ones that are sold? Which makes me want to say
                  how Jody is an awesome DJ. And Hybrid are so good at DJing too. :)
                • ally@hybrid-group.com
                  ... (once ... really ... innovation ... in your opinion Antti, in YOUR opinion I m a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF has just
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 21, 2004
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                    --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > Fair enough, my comment might have been somewhat overexaggerated
                    (once
                    > again), but as I am once again trying to listen to Morning Sci-Fi I
                    really
                    > have to say I find it in many ways lacking the spirit and musical
                    innovation
                    > Wide Angle showed.

                    "in your opinion Antti, in YOUR opinion"

                    I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                    has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                    slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.

                    Music is a very subjective thing.

                    Ally
                  • Antti Mutta
                    Which raises the question if people are so much alike that most of the people listening to music share the affection to same kind of music and bands. If it was
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 21, 2004
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                      Which raises the question if people are so much alike that most of the
                      people listening to music share the affection to same kind of music and
                      bands. If it was such a subjective thing, why so many people agree and
                      disagree on same bands/styles?

                      -antti

                      > Music is a very subjective thing.
                      >
                      > Ally
                    • Alan Duval
                      ... I m a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, AD I did not know that, Ally. Awesome! ... [Ally] thinks that MSF has just as much spirit and musical
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 22, 2004
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                        --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "ally@h..." <ally@h...> wrote:
                        I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher,

                        AD> I did not know that, Ally. Awesome!


                        --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "ally@h..." <ally@h...> wrote:
                        [Ally] thinks that MSF has just as much spirit and musical innovation
                        as WA...just in a slightly different way.

                        AD> I'm in your camp, it seems - I tend to think that Wide Angle
                        (Which is MY preferred album) has more contrast within the tracks as
                        far as contributory elements is concerned, i.e. the sparkling strings
                        juxtaposed against the dark, brooding bass and spiky breaks, where
                        Morning Sci-Fi has more contrast between the tracks.

                        I also think that, in retrospect Wide Angle has more potential pop-
                        or popular-dance appeal as it has roughly equal parts melody and
                        rhythm, where I find MDF to be more rhythmically focussed. I'd
                        probably like MSF more if it was more rhythmically focussed with more
                        breaks or if it maintained the more four-on-the-floor approach but
                        with a lot more of the scintillating melody that Wide Angle offers up.

                        I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that Album 3 will be one of
                        these two things, either more rhythm-centric and breaksy, or more on
                        the progressive house side og things, but with a return to the melody.


                        --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "ally@h..." <ally@h...> wrote:
                        Music is a very subjective thing.

                        AD> It is! And I subject a great many people to my preferred
                        music :D
                      • ally@hybrid-group.com
                        People are indivduals. Some may like some of the music of others, a small group of people may even have 90% of the same tastes...but at the end of the day,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 23, 2004
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                          People are indivduals. Some may like some of the music of others, a
                          small group of people may even have 90% of the same tastes...but at
                          the end of the day, we're not exactly the same as each other.

                          So, in effect, you answered your own question: BECAUSE it is such a
                          subjective thing, so many people agree and disagree on the same
                          bands/styles.

                          Ally


                          --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > Which raises the question if people are so much alike that most of
                          the
                          > people listening to music share the affection to same kind of
                          music and
                          > bands. If it was such a subjective thing, why so many people agree
                          and
                          > disagree on same bands/styles?
                          >
                          > -antti
                          >
                          > > Music is a very subjective thing.
                          > >
                          > > Ally
                        • ally@hybrid-group.com
                          ... and tv...but something snapped, I rebelled against music (I d being doing it since I was 6 and was tired of the endless practise & concerts) and went into
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 23, 2004
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                            --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Duval"
                            <propellerheadcase@h...> wrote:
                            > --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "ally@h..." <ally@h...> wrote:
                            > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher,
                            >
                            > AD> I did not know that, Ally. Awesome!

                            :) I was all set for pursuing a career in writing music for film
                            and tv...but something snapped, I rebelled against music (I'd being
                            doing it since I was 6 and was tired of the endless practise &
                            concerts) and went into Marketing. I've been getting back into it
                            all for a year or two now....this time with an emphasis on singing.
                            We'll see what where it takes me :)

                            Ally
                          • G3K
                            $10 we see your vocals on Hybrid material within a year ^__^ G3K ... From: To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 23, 2004
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                              $10 we see your vocals on Hybrid material within a year ^__^

                              G3K
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <ally@...>
                              To: <HybridUK@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 3:31 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Hybrid] MSF


                              >
                              > --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Duval"
                              > <propellerheadcase@h...> wrote:
                              > > --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "ally@h..." <ally@h...> wrote:
                              > > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher,
                              > >
                              > > AD> I did not know that, Ally. Awesome!
                              >
                              > :) I was all set for pursuing a career in writing music for film
                              > and tv...but something snapped, I rebelled against music (I'd being
                              > doing it since I was 6 and was tired of the endless practise &
                              > concerts) and went into Marketing. I've been getting back into it
                              > all for a year or two now....this time with an emphasis on singing.
                              > We'll see what where it takes me :)
                              >
                              > Ally
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                              >
                              > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
                              > http://www.hybrid-group.com
                              >
                              > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Antti Mutta
                              Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of musical
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it
                                comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the fact that
                                you're the moderator of this forum :)

                                -antti

                                > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                                > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                >
                                > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                >
                                > Ally
                              • Alan Duval
                                Because there are a finite number of bands/styles to choose from. ... wrote: If it was such a subjective thing, why so many people agree and disagree on same
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                  Because there are a finite number of bands/styles to choose from.


                                  --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                                  wrote:
                                  If it was such a subjective thing, why so many people agree and
                                  disagree on same bands/styles?
                                • Chilvers, Simon
                                  Roooound Two *Ding Ding* . . . FIGHT! Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                    Roooound Two

                                    *Ding Ding*

                                    .
                                    .
                                    .

                                    FIGHT!




                                    Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it
                                    comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                    musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                    trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                    there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the fact that
                                    you're the moderator of this forum :)

                                    -antti

                                    > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                                    > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                    > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                    >
                                    > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                    >
                                    > Ally
                                  • nickbower2000
                                    Well, in all honesty I d have to disagree to be honest, Antti. It counts for a lot in my books. As Ally is a trained musician, (and a classically trained one
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                      Well, in all honesty I'd have to disagree to be honest, Antti. It
                                      counts for a lot in my books. As Ally is a trained musician, (and a
                                      classically trained one at that), she has a very well-honed ear for
                                      identifying a good composition when she hears it. Agreed, everyone on
                                      the planet can make a judgement (whether having an ounce of musical
                                      talent inside them or not), as to whether they think a track is
                                      good/bad/indifferent. However, an individual who has grafted away to
                                      attain a professional standard in their chosen musical area will
                                      surely appreciate - and be in a better position to
                                      discuss/interpret/analyse - the structure of a piece of music (and
                                      actually be in a very good position to KNOW what they are talking
                                      about!). Ally *taught*. You can't really stumble into that blindly,
                                      without a serious amount of maturity, knowledge and appreciation
                                      beforehand.

                                      That's my 50 Euro's worth.

                                      :)

                                      Nick



                                      --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat
                                      when it
                                      > comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or
                                      talking of
                                      > musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are
                                      classically
                                      > trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost
                                      crap pop
                                      > there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the
                                      fact that
                                      > you're the moderator of this forum :)
                                      >
                                      > -antti
                                      >
                                      > > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that
                                      MSF
                                      > > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                      > > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                      > >
                                      > > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ally
                                    • James Warren
                                      I would have to agree too. I ve been trying to get to grips with basic elements of music theory and IMHO, being classically trained would make a big difference
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                        I would have to agree too. I've been trying to get to grips with basic
                                        elements of music theory and IMHO, being classically trained would make a
                                        big difference to your appreciation of music. Being able to identify the way
                                        songs are constructed, the key it's written in, harmonics etc etc. has to
                                        give you an edge in musical appreciation.

                                        I only wish I'd gone down the same path Ally. Fair play to you, and good
                                        luck with the music career.

                                        Again, just an opinion.

                                        James

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: nickbower2000 [mailto:nickbower2000@...]
                                        Sent: 24 August 2004 10:49
                                        To: HybridUK@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Hybrid] MSF

                                        Well, in all honesty I'd have to disagree to be honest, Antti. It
                                        counts for a lot in my books. As Ally is a trained musician, (and a
                                        classically trained one at that), she has a very well-honed ear for
                                        identifying a good composition when she hears it. Agreed, everyone on
                                        the planet can make a judgement (whether having an ounce of musical
                                        talent inside them or not), as to whether they think a track is
                                        good/bad/indifferent. However, an individual who has grafted away to
                                        attain a professional standard in their chosen musical area will
                                        surely appreciate - and be in a better position to
                                        discuss/interpret/analyse - the structure of a piece of music (and
                                        actually be in a very good position to KNOW what they are talking
                                        about!). Ally *taught*. You can't really stumble into that blindly,
                                        without a serious amount of maturity, knowledge and appreciation
                                        beforehand.

                                        That's my 50 Euro's worth.

                                        :)

                                        Nick



                                        --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat
                                        when it
                                        > comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or
                                        talking of
                                        > musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are
                                        classically
                                        > trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost
                                        crap pop
                                        > there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the
                                        fact that
                                        > you're the moderator of this forum :)
                                        >
                                        > -antti
                                        >
                                        > > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that
                                        MSF
                                        > > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                        > > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                        > >
                                        > > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ally





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                                      • Jitesh Mistry
                                        The score by the judges is 3-21 to Shutthe tleworth... Mutta is dangerously close to being outclassed here in the 2nd round of the Olympic Final of the MSF
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                          The score by the judges is 3-21 to Shutthe tleworth... Mutta is dangerously
                                          close to being outclassed here in the 2nd round of the Olympic Final of the
                                          MSF final.

                                          Later,
                                          Jits.
                                          Miffed about TCR CD-R Promos being cut-down edits or 'spoiled' in a MSF
                                          CD-R Promo way.
                                          __________
                                          Simon Chilvers wrote:

                                          Roooound Two

                                          *Ding Ding*

                                          .
                                          .
                                          .

                                          FIGHT!




                                          Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it
                                          comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                          musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                          trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                          there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the fact that
                                          you're the moderator of this forum :)

                                          -antti

                                          > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                                          > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                          > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                          >
                                          > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                          >
                                          > Ally







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                                        • Antti Mutta
                                          Well, I guess all of the critics, and actually anyone making critique of music/film/whatever, should then start posting their resume next to the text, so we
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                            Well, I guess all of the critics, and actually anyone making critique of
                                            music/film/whatever, should then start posting their resume next to the
                                            text, so we could evaluate if this person has what it takes! What a load of
                                            bull...

                                            And because I have no idea how good a musician Ally is, what she plays, what
                                            are her grades, and if she even can compose music herself (one thing that
                                            actually "hones" your ear instead of just playing other people's music), I
                                            trust her as much as the kid next door who has taken 5 years of violin
                                            lessons. Again, is this how it goes? I DON'T THINK SO...

                                            Or then you could just understand the fact, that people can get good also in
                                            LISTENING TO music and it's in fact a skill you can learn without being a
                                            musician yourself, just like you can learn to play an instrument or make
                                            music without being a classically *cough* limited *cough* trained
                                            musician/composer. So many classically trained music people I have met are
                                            able to play beautifully but many of them have the ear for sound or style as
                                            your average Britney Spears-loving yokel.

                                            I also don't know what you are basing these "trained musicians can identify
                                            a good compositions" things. Maybe it's just the basic "he can play piano
                                            like Richard Clayderman, he must be the master of music" thing. There's a
                                            reason why bands use producers who are not always classically trained but
                                            just know what sounds good, and it lies in the fact that many music people
                                            know how to play and love to play, but they don't get what sounds good and
                                            what's not cliched.

                                            -antti

                                            > Well, in all honesty I'd have to disagree to be honest, Antti. It
                                            > counts for a lot in my books. As Ally is a trained musician, (and a
                                            > classically trained one at that), she has a very well-honed ear for
                                            > identifying a good composition when she hears it. Agreed, everyone on
                                            > the planet can make a judgement (whether having an ounce of musical
                                            > talent inside them or not), as to whether they think a track is
                                            > good/bad/indifferent. However, an individual who has grafted away to
                                            > attain a professional standard in their chosen musical area will
                                            > surely appreciate - and be in a better position to
                                            > discuss/interpret/analyse - the structure of a piece of music (and
                                            > actually be in a very good position to KNOW what they are talking
                                            > about!). Ally *taught*. You can't really stumble into that blindly,
                                            > without a serious amount of maturity, knowledge and appreciation
                                            > beforehand.
                                            >
                                            > That's my 50 Euro's worth.
                                            >
                                            > :)
                                            >
                                            > Nick
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In HybridUK@yahoogroups.com, "Antti Mutta" <antti.mutta@s...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat
                                            > when it
                                            > > comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or
                                            > talking of
                                            > > musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are
                                            > classically
                                            > > trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost
                                            > crap pop
                                            > > there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the
                                            > fact that
                                            > > you're the moderator of this forum :)
                                            > >
                                            > > -antti
                                            > >
                                            > > > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that
                                            > MSF
                                            > > > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                            > > > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Ally
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                            >
                                            > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
                                            > http://www.hybrid-group.com
                                            >
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                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • dcraig@nmt.edu
                                            ... The fact she listens to stuff other than pop prety much blows your theory out of the water. Besides, it can help her hear, or maybe appreciate, something
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                              > Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when
                                              > it
                                              > comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                              > musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                              > trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                              > there is.

                                              The fact she listens to stuff other than pop prety much blows your theory
                                              out of the water. Besides, it can help her hear, or maybe appreciate,
                                              something a little more subtle than we are accustomed to as well. There
                                              are strengths and weaknesses to being trained and it sounds to me like
                                              Ally knows what she's talking about.

                                              Dan
                                            • Scott Moore
                                              Antti... did you read what Ally said? she doesn t say... hey, I am a classically trained musician and ex-teacher who s opinion is far superior than yours
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 24, 2004
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                                                Antti... did you read what Ally said? she doesn't say... "hey, I am a classically trained musician and ex-teacher who's opinion is far superior than yours because of my field/education... so your opinion doesn't matter" but yet your reaction is as if she did say this... now maybe you figured she through in her resume of music as meaning just this but why would you read into that? she even states that what she says is just her opinion...

                                                this is such a silly arguement...

                                                WiZuM

                                                Antti Mutta <antti.mutta@...> wrote:
                                                Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when it
                                                comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                                musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                                trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                                there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the fact that
                                                you're the moderator of this forum :)

                                                -antti

                                                > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                                                > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                                > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                                >
                                                > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                                >
                                                > Ally
                                              • Matt Comi
                                                Couldn t resist. ... It hones your ear, huh? Alrighty. ... Also, I ve found that many tall people know how to do arithmetic and enjoy maths, but they don t get
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 25, 2004
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                                                  Couldn't resist.

                                                  Antti Mutta wrote:

                                                  > ... and if she even can compose music herself (one thing that
                                                  > actually "hones" your ear instead of just playing other people's music)
                                                  >
                                                  It hones your ear, huh? Alrighty.

                                                  > ... many music people know how to play and love to play, but they
                                                  > don't get what sounds good and
                                                  > what's not cliched.
                                                  >
                                                  Also, I've found that many tall people know how to do arithmetic and
                                                  enjoy maths, but they don't get algebra.

                                                  Just thought I might point out that sweeping generalisations and
                                                  accusations don't usually benefit an argument.

                                                  As Scott said, "did you read what Ally said?"
                                                • Antti Mutta
                                                  Agh.. I need to apologize here. I am deeply sorry for my stupid behaviour. Albeit I do really believe in what I said on some level, it all came out totally
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 25, 2004
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                                                    Agh.. I need to apologize here. I am deeply sorry for my stupid behaviour.
                                                    Albeit I do really believe in what I said on some level, it all came out
                                                    totally wrong here, sounding like I hate people (and in particular some of
                                                    you). This is not the case. I just got a bit excited over the subject. Damn
                                                    I feel like a moron!

                                                    Simon and Jits, good stuff :)

                                                    Again, my deepest apologies to everyone and especially Ally. I've been an
                                                    ASS. I'll go to the corner now. Will return when I have something worthwhile
                                                    to say :)

                                                    temper, temper...

                                                    -antti


                                                    > The score by the judges is 3-21 to Shutthe tleworth... Mutta is
                                                    dangerously
                                                    > close to being outclassed here in the 2nd round of the Olympic Final of
                                                    the
                                                    > MSF final.
                                                    >
                                                    > Later,
                                                    > Jits.
                                                    > Miffed about TCR CD-R Promos being cut-down edits or 'spoiled' in a MSF
                                                    > CD-R Promo way.
                                                    > __________
                                                    > Simon Chilvers wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Roooound Two
                                                    >
                                                    > *Ding Ding*
                                                    >
                                                    > .
                                                    > .
                                                    > .
                                                    >
                                                    > FIGHT!
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Oh, and Ally, classically trained musician / ex-teacher means squat when
                                                    it
                                                    > comes to LISTENING music. Now, talking about playing music or talking of
                                                    > musical theory.. That's another thing. I have friends who are classically
                                                    > trained musicians and hey guess what, they listen to the utmost crap pop
                                                    > there is. I think in your case the thing that matters most is the fact
                                                    that
                                                    > you're the moderator of this forum :)
                                                    >
                                                    > -antti
                                                    >
                                                    > > I'm a classically trained musician / ex-teacher, who thinks that MSF
                                                    > > has just as much spirit and musical innovation as WA...just in a
                                                    > > slightly different way. But...that is just MY opinion.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Music is a very subjective thing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Ally
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                    >
                                                    > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
                                                    > http://www.hybrid-group.com
                                                    >
                                                    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                    >
                                                    > Hybrid News, Gig Dates and much more...
                                                    > http://www.hybrid-group.com
                                                    >
                                                    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • EvilAlivE@aol.com
                                                    In a message dated 8/26/2004 7:32:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antti.mutta@sgic.fi writes: Agh.. I need to apologize here. antti... i must say.. on so many
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Aug 26, 2004
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                                                      In a message dated 8/26/2004 7:32:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                      antti.mutta@... writes:

                                                      Agh.. I need to apologize here.


                                                      antti... i must say.. on so many occasions i bite my tongue on your comments
                                                      paticularly for this reason... you are man enough to admit when you have
                                                      maybe have overstepped a bit... as much as i used to tense up with anger from
                                                      your comments and opinions in the past... ive learned to ride it out... i like
                                                      reading the other side as well.. so happy to know that you are sensible too

                                                      glad you are around

                                                      :)


                                                      JD
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