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Re: Y-DNA basal hg C3* in South America

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  • ghorvat2001
    ... What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man s mtDNA sequence, D4h3a. In fact I m
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
      --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "gdziebel" <dziebelg@...> wrote:
      >
      > http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003460#close
      >
      > It seems to be settled that the previously reported South American C3 is not the same as North American C3b.
      >
      > The authors' hypothesis of a coastal migration from Japan to South America 6,000 years ago doesn't appeal to me.

      What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man's mtDNA sequence, D4h3a. In fact I'm surprised there is no mention of it in this, otherwise very comprehensive, article. D4h3a was first reported in the Cayapa sample of Ecuador (in 1999) and the Cayapa continue to be the population which has the highest frequency of this sub-haplogroup (23%).

      With regards to the following quote from the article:

      "If haplogroups Q and C3* both entered the American continent
      from Asia at the same time 15,000 YBP, then C3* would have
      been expected to be more widespread than has been reported so
      far."

      Right. The same applies to mtDNA D4h3. It has a much more restricted distribution than A2, C1, B2 and D1. NRY C3* and mtDNA D4h3 are also both rare in North America.

      It is also interesting that the Cayapa had no mtDNA D1 sequences.

      Gisele
    • gdziebel
      What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man s mtDNA sequence, D4h3a. Not sure I
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
        "What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man's mtDNA sequence, D4h3a."

        Not sure I agree, although the comparison is intriguing. D4h3a is part of the same clade as D1 and D1 is found all over the New World. So we would need to find a rare branch of Y-DNA hg Q to warrant the analogy. C3* and C3b are both rare.

        "It is also interesting that the Cayapa had no mtDNA D1 sequences."

        But other South American populations, e.g. Kawesqar, have both D1 and D4h3a. And Cayapa doesn't have C3*. Linguistically, Cayapa and Waorani, who have elevated frequencies of Y-DNA C3*, are as distinct as Cayapa and Kawesqar.

        "Right. The same applies to mtDNA D4h3. It has a much more restricted distribution than A2, C1, B2 and D1. NRY C3* and mtDNA D4h3 are also both rare in North America."

        D4h3 is found in both North and South America and not found in Japan, so this doesn't make the authors' argument stronger, hence they probably omitted it for a reason. It would be doubly strange if C3* and D4h3 were brought as part of a separate migration, as both of them have kindred lineages among the "founding" haplotypes and there were many other, more clearly distinct, lineages in East Asia that could've come from the Old World but they didn't.



        --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "ghorvat2001" <g-horvat@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "gdziebel" <dziebelg@> wrote:
        > >
        > > http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003460#close
        > >
        > > It seems to be settled that the previously reported South American C3 is not the same as North American C3b.
        > >
        > > The authors' hypothesis of a coastal migration from Japan to South America 6,000 years ago doesn't appeal to me.
        >
        > What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man's mtDNA sequence, D4h3a. In fact I'm surprised there is no mention of it in this, otherwise very comprehensive, article. D4h3a was first reported in the Cayapa sample of Ecuador (in 1999) and the Cayapa continue to be the population which has the highest frequency of this sub-haplogroup (23%).
        >
        > With regards to the following quote from the article:
        >
        > "If haplogroups Q and C3* both entered the American continent
        > from Asia at the same time 15,000 YBP, then C3* would have
        > been expected to be more widespread than has been reported so
        > far."
        >
        > Right. The same applies to mtDNA D4h3. It has a much more restricted distribution than A2, C1, B2 and D1. NRY C3* and mtDNA D4h3 are also both rare in North America.
        >
        > It is also interesting that the Cayapa had no mtDNA D1 sequences.
        >
        > Gisele
        >
      • ghorvat2001
        ... gh: That is an inaccurate description. D4h3a interests me *because* it is far removed from D1. As its name indicates, it is closest to the Asian D4h
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
          --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "gdziebel" <dziebelg@...> wrote:
          >
          > "What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man's mtDNA sequence, D4h3a."
          >
          > Not sure I agree, although the comparison is intriguing. D4h3a is part of the same clade as D1 and D1 is found all over the New World.

          gh: That is an inaccurate description. D4h3a interests me *because* it is far removed from D1. As its name indicates, it is closest to the Asian D4h clades.

          [snip - linguistic differences noted]

          > "Right. The same applies to mtDNA D4h3. It has a much more restricted distribution than A2, C1, B2 and D1. NRY C3* and mtDNA D4h3 are also both rare in North America."
          >
          > D4h3 is found in both North [gh: 0.2%] and South America [gh: 1.8%] and not found in Japan, so this doesn't make the authors' argument stronger, hence they probably omitted it for a reason.

          gh: A single D4h3 sequence is known from Shandong. Most of the D4h1 complete sequences I have are from Japan and there are ancient Jomon D4h2 ones:

          "Both the control and coding regions of their mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) were analyzed in detail, and we confidently assigned 54 mtDNAs to relevant haplogroups. Haplogroups N9b, ***D4h2***, G1b, and M7a were observed in these individuals, with N9b being the predominant one." (Adachi et al. 2011, AJPA)

          "It would be doubly strange if C3* and D4h3 were brought as part of a separate migration, as both of them have kindred lineages among the "founding" haplotypes and there were many other, more clearly distinct, lineages in East Asia that could've come from the Old World but they didn't.

          gh: As I have mentioned previously mtDNA haplogroup D sequences are very common in Korea and Japan (35-40%) and in northern Asia as a whole. That is why they have been introduced to the New World several times.

          Gisele
        • ghorvat2001
          German s response (which I think he intended to post): That is an inaccurate description. D4h3a interests me *because* it is far removed from D1. As its name
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
            German's response (which I think he intended to post):

            "That is an inaccurate description. D4h3a interests me *because* it is far removed from D1. As its name indicates, it is closest to the Asian D4h clades."

            > What I meant to say is that D4h3 and D1 belong to one very frequent, pan-American clade.

            gh: That is still an incorrect description. They are two small, unrelated parts of Asian haplogroup D.

            > C3* and C3b belong to a rare clade.

            gh: "C3*" is a non-specific classification.

            "A single D4h3 sequence is known from Shandong. Most of the D4h1 complete sequences I have are from Japan and there are ancient Jomon D4h2 ones"

            > Still no support for a trans-Pacific voyage from Japan to South America. Shandong is in China and D4h2 is not in Ecuador.

            gh: No, there's OYK Cave in between and the Chumash had D4h3a sequences. This does not imply "trans-Pacific'.

            "As I have mentioned previously mtDNA haplogroup D sequences are very common in Korea and Japan (35-40%) and in northern Asia as a whole. That is why they have been introduced to the New World several times."

            > Then how come D4h2 and D4h1 are not found in America? And D4h3 is found in China where D sequences are far from common.

            gh: 10,000+ years separate the sequences. One could say that D4h is present in both Asia and America if you want to look, only, at that resolution. At finer resolutions, D4h3, D4h3a, D4h1 and D4h2 are all different and D4h3a has also been subdivided within the New World.

            > If D4h3 back migrated from America to Asia, then the problem disappears.

            No comment.

            Gisele
          • ghorvat2001
            ... [...] ... By the way, the single Brazilian mtDNA D4h3a sequence I m aware of was from Minas Gerais. Several more of these sequences have recently been
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
              --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "ghorvat2001" <g-horvat@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "gdziebel" <dziebelg@> wrote:
              [...]
              > > D4h3 is found in both North [gh: 0.2%] and South America [gh: 1.8%]...

              By the way, the single Brazilian mtDNA D4h3a sequence I'm aware of was from Minas Gerais. Several more of these sequences have recently been reported from Bolivia; especially La Paz.

              Gisele
            • ghorvat2001
              ... Indeed it is not. Betty Megger s theory has been highly criticized. I was wondering, today, if it was the Jomon men or women who made pottery. Googling,
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 14, 2013
                --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, steven perkins <scperkins@...> wrote:
                >
                > There was an article in Scientific American sometime in the 70s >(IIRC) which was on the remarkable near identical shape and
                > construction of pottery in a certain part of western South America > and Japan. So, this may not be a new theory.

                Indeed it is not. Betty Megger's theory has been highly criticized. I was wondering, today, if it was the Jomon men or women who made pottery. Googling, I found this:

                "It is thought that Jomon pottery was made by women, as was the practice in most early societies, especially before the use of the potter's wheel." ~ ART HISTORY, edited by Marilyn Stockstad.

                http://earlywomenmasters.net/masters/jomon/

                If this is true, then Y chromosomes may not be the best indicators of this type of, theorized, cultural diffusion.

                Gisele
              • josephapw
                ... Indeed, that is technically true, but aspects of her work should be revisited in the light of new evidence. The most substantive critique is of her
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 15, 2013
                  >
                  >... Betty Megger's theory has been highly criticized. ... Y chromosomes may not be the best indicators of this type of, theorized, cultural diffusion.
                  >

                  Indeed, that is technically true, but aspects of her work should be revisited in the light of new evidence. The most substantive critique is of her migration model (storm-tossed fishing boats, which would be sporadic and male-biased, and unlikely to have major material impacts).

                  The material cultural parallels are significant whatever mechanism is invoked to explain them; I do not share German's impulse to dismiss all such parallels as mere coincidence, when they are on coasts of the same ocean at the same time. I argue (with Alice Kehoe) we generally are predisposed to ignore the possibility of more pervasive trans-oceanic migration, and in this case, the possibility that the Jomon were involved in deliberate rather than inadvertent colonization efforts. If that is the case then C3 does not directly link to pottery, but is associated with the same population.

                  It is not JUST y chromosomes, but the same area of S America has HLA and mtDNA which can be interpreted as corroborating Megger's views. It is by no means proven, but it is premature to say "case closed". The case was closed based on a piecemeal refutation and not a comprehensive refutation, and it deserves an unbiased retrial...

                  :)
                • ghorvat2001
                  ... If you have read all of my contributions to this thread, you will know that I do not disagree with you. I just think the mtDNA findings can more easily
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 15, 2013
                    --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "josephapw" <jwilson@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >... Betty Megger's theory has been highly criticized. ... Y chromosomes may not be the best indicators of this type of, theorized, cultural diffusion.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Indeed, that is technically true, but aspects of her work should be revisited in the light of new evidence. The most substantive critique is of her migration model (storm-tossed fishing boats, which would be sporadic and male-biased, and unlikely to have major material impacts).
                    >
                    > The material cultural parallels are significant whatever mechanism is invoked to explain them; I do not share German's impulse to dismiss all such parallels as mere coincidence, when they are on coasts of the same ocean at the same time. I argue (with Alice Kehoe) we generally are predisposed to ignore the possibility of more pervasive trans-oceanic migration, and in this case, the possibility that the Jomon were involved in deliberate rather than inadvertent colonization efforts. If that is the case then C3 does not directly link to pottery, but is associated with the same population.
                    >
                    > It is not JUST y chromosomes, but the same area of S America has HLA and mtDNA which can be interpreted as corroborating Megger's views. It is by no means proven, but it is premature to say "case closed". The case was closed based on a piecemeal refutation and not a comprehensive refutation, and it deserves an unbiased retrial...
                    >
                    > :)

                    If you have read all of my contributions to this thread, you will know that I do not disagree with you. I just think the mtDNA findings can more easily connect Ecuadorians with Jomon than the Y chromosome and the latter might even cloud the issue. For instance, how many STRs are required to determine affinities? I ask because my efforts to connect the Tlingit C3* Y chromosomes with the OYKCM's D4h3a mtDNA sequence have been somewhat thwarted by the Median Joining Network (Figure 5 of Roewer et al's article) which, correctly or incorrectly, shows the Native American C3*s on several different branches as if they were introduced separately.

                    Gisele
                  • gdziebel
                    I do not share German s impulse to dismiss all such parallels as mere coincidence, when they are on coasts of the same ocean at the same time. I don t
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 16, 2013
                      "I do not share German's impulse to dismiss all such parallels as
                      mere coincidence, when they are on coasts of the same ocean at the same time."

                      I don't dismiss them. It just takes an interdisciplinary agreement to ascertain such migrations. In the case of the putative Solutrean-Clovis and Jomon-Valdivia links, the genetics and the linguistics are not there. mtDNA D4h3 is not found in Japan and it's too wide spread in the Americas to support a direct link between Japan and the western coast of South America. C3* has no specific ties to Japan either. The more typical markers found in Japan are not found in those areas of South America. All of this suggests that material culture similarities in the case of Jomon-Valdivia are parallel inventions.



                      --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "josephapw" <jwilson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >... Betty Megger's theory has been highly criticized. ... Y chromosomes may not be the best indicators of this type of, theorized, cultural diffusion.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Indeed, that is technically true, but aspects of her work should be revisited in the light of new evidence. The most substantive critique is of her migration model (storm-tossed fishing boats, which would be sporadic and male-biased, and unlikely to have major material impacts).
                      >
                      > The material cultural parallels are significant whatever mechanism is invoked to explain them; I do not share German's impulse to dismiss all such parallels as mere coincidence, when they are on coasts of the same ocean at the same time. I argue (with Alice Kehoe) we generally are predisposed to ignore the possibility of more pervasive trans-oceanic migration, and in this case, the possibility that the Jomon were involved in deliberate rather than inadvertent colonization efforts. If that is the case then C3 does not directly link to pottery, but is associated with the same population.
                      >
                      > It is not JUST y chromosomes, but the same area of S America has HLA and mtDNA which can be interpreted as corroborating Megger's views. It is by no means proven, but it is premature to say "case closed". The case was closed based on a piecemeal refutation and not a comprehensive refutation, and it deserves an unbiased retrial...
                      >
                      > :)
                      >
                    • gdziebel
                      More here: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/04/y-dna-hg-c3-in-south-america-and-putative-ancient-transpacific-contacts/
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 29, 2013
                        More here: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/04/y-dna-hg-c3-in-south-america-and-putative-ancient-transpacific-contacts/


                        --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "ghorvat2001" <g-horvat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In HumanMigrations@yahoogroups.com, "gdziebel" <dziebelg@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003460#close
                        > >
                        > > It seems to be settled that the previously reported South American C3 is not the same as North American C3b.
                        > >
                        > > The authors' hypothesis of a coastal migration from Japan to South America 6,000 years ago doesn't appeal to me.
                        >
                        > What makes the most sense to me is that this NRY C3* sequence is the male counterpart of the On Your Knees Cave Man's mtDNA sequence, D4h3a. In fact I'm surprised there is no mention of it in this, otherwise very comprehensive, article. D4h3a was first reported in the Cayapa sample of Ecuador (in 1999) and the Cayapa continue to be the population which has the highest frequency of this sub-haplogroup (23%).
                        >
                        > With regards to the following quote from the article:
                        >
                        > "If haplogroups Q and C3* both entered the American continent
                        > from Asia at the same time 15,000 YBP, then C3* would have
                        > been expected to be more widespread than has been reported so
                        > far."
                        >
                        > Right. The same applies to mtDNA D4h3. It has a much more restricted distribution than A2, C1, B2 and D1. NRY C3* and mtDNA D4h3 are also both rare in North America.
                        >
                        > It is also interesting that the Cayapa had no mtDNA D1 sequences.
                        >
                        > Gisele
                        >
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