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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: photo layer coming off

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  • Jeff Heiss
    Do you mean $19 per board when 10 boards are ordered ($190 total)? What is the cost for one or two boards? Jeff _____ From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 24 , May 13, 2013
      Do you mean $19 per board when 10 boards are ordered ($190 total)? What is
      the cost for one or two boards?



      Jeff

      _____

      From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
      Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 10:56 PM
      To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: photo layer coming off





      On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 2:36 AM, dave_donlan <dhd01@...
      <mailto:dhd01%40live.co.uk> > wrote:
      > cheers for the advice I will try another test strip but go over longer
      time.
      >
      > it is clear acetate lazer printer. I print 2 images to double up the
      thickness

      My 2c: When making boards at home I print onto drafting paper. 8mil
      is no problem:

      http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html

      Drafting paper is transparent to UV, and I worry less when it goes
      through the printer.

      (And now my plug: I supply pro-quality PCBs, double sided everything,
      10 boards for USD19 inc worldwide delivery.
      http://tinyurl.com/hvpcbfaq)

      Mitch.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mitch Davis
      Hello Jeff, hello homebrewing PCB folks. First, something on-topic: When I was getting started with home etching, I also made a test strip. I used my CAD
      Message 2 of 24 , May 13, 2013
        Hello Jeff, hello homebrewing PCB folks.

        First, something on-topic: When I was getting started with home
        etching, I also made a test strip. I used my CAD program (KiCad) to
        place 10 SOIC-14 footprints at 1-inch intervals, and wired each chip
        to its neighbours with traces of various thicknesses. After printing
        (see the blog entry from my last group email), I made marks at 1-inch
        intervals on the back of the blank board. Then I got two pieces of
        card, and slipped the blank between them with only the last inch
        hanging out. Off to my UV light, and I started a timer. Every thirty
        seconds I pulled out another inch, so that after about five minutes,
        I'd exposed all of the strip. I then developed and etched it. What I
        found was that for my UV light setup, and the blank I was using, 2½-3
        minutes was fine. I was able to get reliable 8mil traces through
        drafting paper with only one run through the printer. (I should point
        out that my making of boards at home is entirely unconnected to the
        professional PCBs I supply to customers)

        On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...> wrote:
        >
        > Do you mean $19 per board when 10 boards are ordered ($190 total)?

        Haha, oh goodness no! I wouldn't do any business! That's USD19 total
        for 10 boards.

        As an example, this customer paid me the Australian equivalent of
        USD19 for these boards:

        http://nanibox.com/2013/03/kurobox-prototype/

        He also paid USD3 for registered shipping, but that's it. (He and I
        are both Australian so it was easier for us this way).

        According to my records, for his order, I checked and processed his
        order same day, board manufacture took 3 days, and shipping was 7
        days.

        There are some other important details: That's the up-to-5x5cm price,
        and for Paypal it's +5%. For more info, read my guide:

        http://tinyurl.com/hvpcbfaq

        > What is the cost for one or two boards?

        I have a 10-for-5 offer for boards that are up to 5x5cm (USD19), and
        10-for-5 on up to 10x10cm (USD36, but smaller sizes are cheaper.
        Also, thinner is cheaper). If you're really only after one or two, 'm
        very happy to make 5 and throw 3 or 4 away before shipping them to
        you. Or you can give them to budding engineers or use them for SMT
        soldering practice.

        Oh, and here's another happy customer:

        http://electronics.ozonejunkie.com/2012/11/pcb-manufacture/

        His boards were also USD19, but he also paid me USD25 for DHL.

        If you're greedy, you can visit these too:

        http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4722
        http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/12/06/workshop-video-interview-with-mitch-from-hackvana/

        Talking to my customers is the highlight of my day. I have a 24-hour
        live chatroom where several dozen of my customers hang out and talk
        about electronics, give feedback to each other on their PCB designs,
        and generally have a good time. You're all welcome to join (see my
        guide).

        Like most of you I'm an engineer and a tinkerer. I love making stuff,
        and I get a buzz out of helping others to make stuff.

        Lest I wear out my welcome here, if you'd like to know more, please
        send me a private email, or come chat with me and other customers in
        the chat room.

        Regards,

        Mitch.
      • Paul
        Hi Mitch More power to you, it s a really great idea to have someone on the ground as an interface between Europe/USA and the Chinese PCB makers although I
        Message 3 of 24 , May 13, 2013
          Hi Mitch

          More power to you, it's a really great idea to have someone on the
          ground as an "interface" between Europe/USA and the Chinese PCB makers
          although I do have a great Chinese friend in HK who is into specialist
          electronics manufacturing and who helps me out.

          A couple of questions

          How about a sideline in supplying some PCB materials for us homebrew
          hackers? Pre-sensitised board is expensive here and solder resist
          laminate film is expensive and very difficult to find in small quantities.

          What kind of costs for a solder paste mask? (I saw somewhere you can
          supply them)

          Do you miss the Fosters?

          Ooops that's three questions.....

          Regards

          Paul

          On 14/05/2013 05:44, Mitch Davis wrote:
          >
          > Hello Jeff, hello homebrewing PCB folks.
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Jeff Heiss <jeff.heiss@...
          > <mailto:jeff.heiss%40comcast.net>> wrote:
          > >
          > > Do you mean $19 per board when 10 boards are ordered ($190 total)?
          >
          > Haha, oh goodness no! I wouldn't do any business! That's USD19 total
          > for 10 boards.
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mitch Davis
          ... That s what I do. I speak Chinese so you don t have to. I check boards thoroughly and give a report on each one. This saves you a lot of time and money.
          Message 4 of 24 , May 13, 2013
            On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Paul <paul@...> wrote:
            >
            > More power to you, it's a really great idea to have someone on the
            > ground as an "interface" between Europe/USA and the Chinese PCB makers
            > although

            That's what I do. I speak Chinese so you don't have to. I check
            boards thoroughly and give a report on each one. This saves you a lot
            of time and money. And I'm there to make sure the fabs do a great job
            every time.

            >I do have a great Chinese friend in HK who is into specialist
            > electronics manufacturing and who helps me out.

            I'd be interested in talking to him, as I don't have good contacts for assembly.

            > How about a sideline in supplying some PCB materials for us homebrew
            > hackers? Pre-sensitised board is expensive here and solder resist
            > laminate film is expensive and very difficult to find in small quantities.

            I'd really love to. One issue is freight. Fibreglass is extremely
            heavy. Freight for a few boards can often end up more than for the
            boards. For another issue, see below.

            > What kind of costs for a solder paste mask? (I saw somewhere you can
            > supply them)

            I was selling laser-cut stainless frameless solderpaste stencils of up
            to A4 in size for USD25. I have stopped doing that for the moment
            though, as I really really have to concentrate on getting web ordering
            of PCBs going. (And 90% of that is the back-end processing, not the
            customer-facing stuff).

            If you'd like to make your own solderpaste stencils, it's not hard:

            http://lowpowerlab.com/blog/2013/02/11/diy-smd-metal-stencils-the-definitive-tutorial/

            I think everyone should try that. (Felix is another customer of mine :-) )

            > Do you miss the Fosters?

            LOL, Fosters is megaswill, I never drink it. I brew my own beer :-)
            That's what this group is for eh, making your own?

            Mitch.
          • Mitch Davis
            ... I should clarify that I check the design. Here s a recent report for a customer: - No board outline file. Please see attached. The purple lines should
            Message 5 of 24 , May 13, 2013
              On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Mitch Davis <mjd@...> wrote:
              >
              > I check boards thoroughly and give a report on each one.

              I should clarify that I check the design. Here's a recent report for a
              customer:

              - No board outline file. Please see attached. The purple lines should
              be a rectangle enclosing the whole board. You can have right angle or arc
              corners. In particular, please pay close attention to the shape of the
              board in the area of the four RJ45 connectors (or whatever they are).

              - Be aware of PCB manufacture limitations if your final board outline
              has sharp angled concave corners near the RJ45s. It's not possible to
              faithfully reproduce sharp angled concave corners. The mill bit is 0.8mm,
              and therefore the smallest radius of curvature of the arc you'll get on
              concave corners is 0.4mm. Please let me know that this is ok.

              - The fab will "pull back" copper very slightly so there's no copper
              right at the very edge of the board. There will be a very thin copperless
              margin right around the board. If you don't want the fab to do pullback
              (for example, if your design had SMA connectors) then please tell me and
              I'll tell the fab.

              - Many packages use .dri for drill files, but Eagle wants to put drill
              holes into .txt files. That's ok, but the files to include in your .zip
              are the .txt files. (Also, with our .cam file, we can't find a way to stop
              Eagle from generating useless .gpi files, sigh).

              - On the top you have silkscreen across the pads. What will happen is
              that the soldermask will be used to mask the silkscreen - silkcreen will be
              omitted where it crosses pads. This is not a fatal problem, but if you're
              expecting to get back boards where the silk looks just as you designed it,
              this can be a bit of a shock. The easiest solution to this is to redefine
              your footprints so no silk crosses the pads, but you'll still need to
              carefully review every part of your board if you want a total remedy.

              - The "XYZ" text is covering up "ABC".

              - No silkscreen on the bottom layer (that's ok, but please tell me it's
              intentional).

              My chat channel is also a very good place to get a review.

              Mitch.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul
              ... But they keep telling us on the TV ads that it is amber nectar! You imply they are telling porkie pies? :-) Real ale myself... proper Brit stuff. I do brew
              Message 6 of 24 , May 14, 2013
                On 14/05/2013 07:26, Mitch Davis wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > > Do you miss the Fosters?
                >
                > LOL, Fosters is megaswill, I never drink it. I brew my own beer :-)
                > That's what this group is for eh, making your own?
                >
                > Mitch.
                >
                > _
                But they keep telling us on the TV ads that it is amber nectar! You
                imply they are telling porkie pies? :-) Real ale myself... proper Brit
                stuff. I do brew although none on the go at the moment.

                Paul


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mitch Davis
                ... That it was an ad should be enough of a giveaway, that it was also on the TV means it s incredible. Desperate attempt to stay on topic: How long does
                Message 7 of 24 , May 14, 2013
                  On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Paul <paul@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > But they keep telling us on the TV ads that it is amber nectar!

                  That it was an ad should be enough of a giveaway, that it was also on
                  the TV means it's incredible.

                  Desperate attempt to stay on topic: How long does presensitised board
                  last when the bag is sealed? How about once it's been opened but then
                  sealed up? (Not talking about what the manufacturer recommends, which
                  is probably going to be "after using your 2x2cm square, throw the rest
                  of the board away" but what folks have found for themselves...)

                  Cheers,

                  Mitch.
                • lists
                  In article , ... Thank God for that. -- Stuart Winsor Midlands RISC OS and Raspberry pi
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 14, 2013
                    In article
                    <CA+KzSgJHRQsZ3gojr0ij=1UkLBWx-MdtbHRscDmzLUKbLxarHQ@...>,
                    Mitch Davis <mjd@...> wrote:
                    > > Do you miss the Fosters?

                    > LOL, Fosters is megaswill, I never drink it. I brew my own beer :-)

                    Thank God for that.

                    --
                    Stuart Winsor

                    Midlands RISC OS and Raspberry pi show, 13th July 2013

                    http://www.mug.riscos.org/show13/MUGshow.html
                  • lists
                    In article , ... Maplin - Arrgh Bought some board from them once, they had to order it because they had none in stock at the
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 14, 2013
                      In article <51914A6B.9000102@...>,
                      Paul <paul@...> wrote:
                      > Maplin board!

                      Maplin - Arrgh

                      Bought some board from them once, they had to order it because they had
                      none in stock at the local shop. That was usual. I would go in with a list
                      and if I was lucky they might have two of the items I wanted - must have
                      cost them a fortune in postage because they would send direct from head
                      office post free.

                      When it turned up it seemed to be covered in scratches, which I judged
                      would have gone right through the protective film and the photo-resist. I
                      complained and they sent me a replacement piece that looked worse than the
                      first - looked like somebody had been kicking and scuffing it around on
                      the floor. I was in a hurry and desperate so I had to use it - broken
                      tracks everywhere where the scratches had removed the resist.

                      One would have thought that because I had complained they would have
                      checked the replacement over before sending it out.

                      --
                      Stuart Winsor

                      Midlands RISC OS and Raspberry pi show, 13th July 2013

                      http://www.mug.riscos.org/show13/MUGshow.html
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