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Re: Which PCB CAD for someone entering the job market?

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  • logicresearch
    Hi Steve, I ve ended up going with AutoTrax myself. It is low cost and after trying it for a while, found that it actually works. There are some surprises with
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
      Hi Steve,

      I've ended up going with AutoTrax myself.
      It is low cost and after trying it for a while, found that it
      actually works.
      There are some surprises with it, such as not a lot of packages in
      the library, and some heavy duty reading needed to understand it -
      but once you see what it does it is actuallay very good for the price.

      I'm an registered electrician / electronics technician / designer /
      inventor / and heavy drinker, and I get really pissed of with
      software (and other things) that don't fit the bill.
      AutoTrax has work for me and doesn't cost the huge price of things
      like Easy-PC.

      It easily suits multi-monitor computers (would advise something beter
      than an Atari though) and is flexible in what it can do from package
      design, footprint design, 3D, spice, schematic and pcb - although I
      have not been using it for long and have not mastered complex PCBs,
      it is doing what I want for now.

      Good luck with your endevours.

      Daryl Mills
      LogicResearch.


      --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Greenfield
      <alienrelics@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about
      this a year ago.
      >
      > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about
      using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for
      the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It
      is free or cheap.
      >
      > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do
      you think it will hurt or help?
      >
      > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me
      to choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a
      classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free,
      but something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I
      don't want something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs
      on a board.
      >
      > I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering
      Technician course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have
      gotten long ago and going for the FCC commercial license.
      >
      > Steve Greenfield
      >
    • leon Heller
      ... From: Steve Greenfield To: Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:23
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Steve Greenfield" <alienrelics@...>
        To: "Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:23 PM
        Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which PCB CAD for someone entering the job market?


        > Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a
        > year ago.
        >
        > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it
        > in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx
        > series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
        >
        > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you
        > think it will hurt or help?
        >
        > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to
        > choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a
        > classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but
        > something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't want
        > something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
        >
        > I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician
        > course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago
        > and going for the FCC commercial license.

        It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than mention
        the package you used.

        Leon
      • Myc Holmes
        I ll second Leon s suggestion that you describe the pcbs that you have made. Mentioning your use of EAGLE is a two edged sword. On one hand it says that you
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
          I'll second Leon's suggestion that you describe the pcbs that you have made.
          Mentioning your use of EAGLE is a two edged sword. On one hand it says that
          you are familiar with the pcb layout and design process, but on the other
          hand, it says you will have to "unlearn" the unique commands of EAGLE. Old
          habits die hard.

          Your skills would be more desirable if you were able to use one of the more
          mainstream commercial pcb programs.

          Myc

          On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:23 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Steve Greenfield" <alienrelics@... <alienrelics%40yahoo.com>>
          > To: "Homebrew_PCBs Mailing List" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com<homebrew_pcbs%40yahoogroups.com>
          > >
          > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:23 PM
          > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which PCB CAD for someone entering the job market?
          >
          > > Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a
          > > year ago.
          > >
          > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it
          > > in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the
          > PIC32MXxxxx
          > > series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
          > >
          > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you
          > > think it will hurt or help?
          > >
          > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to
          > > choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a
          > > classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but
          > > something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't
          > want
          > > something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
          > >
          > > I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician
          > > course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago
          >
          > > and going for the FCC commercial license.
          >
          > It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than
          > mention
          > the package you used.
          >
          > Leon
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stefan Trethan
          That d be a good idea ;-) If you say you can use Eagle, they will surely hire you. After all they will know that you are a _very_ patient man! Also they ll
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
            That'd be a good idea ;-)

            If you say you can use Eagle, they will surely hire you. After all
            they will know that you are a _very_ patient man!
            Also they'll think we can give this guy really crappy tools and he
            won't complain ;-)

            Seriously it doesn't matter much if you have no experience with the
            particular layout tool they use. What matters is that you have
            experience with some layout tool, and other software, and that you are
            able to learn quickly. I had never seen eagle and it wasn't hard to
            start right off making a board, well, no harder than it is now after
            two years of using this cr@p.

            I wouldn't worry about it too much, use what you like most.

            ST

            On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 9:23 PM, leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

            > It might be better to describe the PCBs you've designed, rather than mention
            > the package you used.
            >
            > Leon
            >
          • Erik Knise
            I just joined this group with the recommendation of people in some other groups, so I m sorry if someone else has said the same thing i have recently. I have
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
              I just joined this group with the recommendation of people in some other
              groups, so I'm sorry if someone else has said the same thing i have
              recently.

              I have had fairly good luck with Eagle so far. Although, I was using the
              premium version my boss had paid for. I didn't even know there was an auto
              route tool. So I guess if you know the ins and the out of any software that
              would make it useful. Now I know how to better exploit it, although it did
              seem like it needed to be kicked in the right direction pretty frequently to
              get what I wanted done. It is also very easy to lay out traces in the
              schematic side and have them not actually connect, just sit next to each
              other...pretty useless in my mind.

              --
              Erik L. Knise
              Pacific Shipping Company
              Seattle, WA


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Donald H Locker
              Hi, Steve. I ll agree with all the other comments to date, and add my 2d. Having used any schematic capture and PCB layout package will be an advantage. I
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
                Hi, Steve.

                I'll agree with all the other comments to date, and add my 2d.

                Having used any schematic capture and PCB layout package will be an advantage.
                I would try a few if possible - some companies prefer OrCad (wow - I've got the
                version from DOS 1.? days :) others go for the Pulsonix, DipTrace or Eagle.
                Even if you do a simple board in several, you can claim experience (if not
                expertise) in them all.

                HTH,
                Donald.
                -- Who has benefited from many of your sage words over the years.

                Steve Greenfield wrote:
                > Sigh... well, I knew I'd never get a consensus when I asked about this a year ago.
                >
                > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It is free or cheap.
                >
                > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do you think it will hurt or help?
                >
                > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD, my instructor told me to choose which Schem. Capture/ PCB Router I would learn. There is a classroom budget for software, so I could pick something not free, but something that costs $2,000 to $15,000 isn't going to happen. I don't want something so limited that I can only put a few generic ICs on a board.
                >
                > I'm attending Bates Technical College, Electronic Engineering Technician course. While I'm here, I'm getting the CET I should have gotten long ago and going for the FCC commercial license.
                >
                > Steve Greenfield
              • Henry Liu
                Silvercircuits.com offer pcb layout for $15/hr using Eagle pcb if you supply the schematic. Probably not a good line to get into get rich. I d say try to
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 4, 2009
                  Silvercircuits.com offer pcb layout for $15/hr using Eagle pcb if you supply
                  the schematic. Probably not a good line to get into get rich.

                  I'd say try to learn industry OrCAD or Altium designer (formerly Protel).
                  They should offer student licenses. When I was a EE, OrCAD and pspice
                  simulation were the rave to have on your resume.


                  On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Erik Knise <elknise@...> wrote:

                  > I just joined this group with the recommendation of people in some other
                  > groups, so I'm sorry if someone else has said the same thing i have
                  > recently.
                  >
                  > I have had fairly good luck with Eagle so far. Although, I was using the
                  > premium version my boss had paid for. I didn't even know there was an auto
                  > route tool. So I guess if you know the ins and the out of any software that
                  > would make it useful. Now I know how to better exploit it, although it did
                  > seem like it needed to be kicked in the right direction pretty frequently
                  > to
                  > get what I wanted done. It is also very easy to lay out traces in the
                  > schematic side and have them not actually connect, just sit next to each
                  > other...pretty useless in my mind.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Erik L. Knise
                  > Pacific Shipping Company
                  > Seattle, WA
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • martin_schoenegg
                  Hi Steve, ... using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I m doing a few projects, and 3. It is free
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 5, 2009
                    Hi Steve,

                    > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about
                    using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library for
                    the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3. It
                    is free or cheap.

                    There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so there
                    is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware and
                    this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool
                    without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even if
                    you have to pay for.

                    > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume, do
                    you think it will hurt or help?

                    I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what type of
                    car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able to
                    design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design a
                    PCB that is EMC compatible.

                    > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD,

                    AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.

                    Regards
                    Martin
                  • boons007
                    for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99, full version SCH, PCB and a simulator. http://kov.com/Default.aspx I in the past when it was a good
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 5, 2009
                      for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99,
                      full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
                      http://kov.com/Default.aspx

                      I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design service ,
                      used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
                      I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly
                      history... Many are now dust or combined...

                      Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY".... including
                      benifits... You can make more being a plummer...

                      PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now...
                      except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive
                      software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really
                      only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...

                      BoonS






                      --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg"
                      <Martin.Schoenegg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Steve,
                      >
                      > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about
                      > using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library
                      for
                      > the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3.
                      It
                      > is free or cheap.
                      >
                      > There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so
                      there
                      > is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware and
                      > this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool
                      > without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even if
                      > you have to pay for.
                      >
                      > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my resume,
                      do
                      > you think it will hurt or help?
                      >
                      > I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what type
                      of
                      > car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able
                      to
                      > design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design
                      a
                      > PCB that is EMC compatible.
                      >
                      > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD,
                      >
                      > AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > Martin
                      >
                    • logicresearch
                      I think if I was going to hire someone, I couldn t really give a rats patutee what the resume looked like as long as they did the job. I have worked with guys
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 5, 2009
                        I think if I was going to hire someone, I couldn't really give a rats
                        patutee what the resume looked like as long as they did the job.
                        I have worked with guys who have police tracking fitted, but they are
                        brilliant.




                        --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99,
                        > full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
                        > http://kov.com/Default.aspx
                        >
                        > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design
                        service ,
                        > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
                        > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly
                        > history... Many are now dust or combined...
                        >
                        > Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY"....
                        including
                        > benifits... You can make more being a plummer...
                        >
                        > PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now...
                        > except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive
                        > software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really
                        > only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...
                        >
                        > BoonS
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg"
                        > <Martin.Schoenegg@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Steve,
                        > >
                        > > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book about
                        > > using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a library
                        > for
                        > > the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and 3.
                        > It
                        > > is free or cheap.
                        > >
                        > > There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available, so
                        > there
                        > > is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware
                        and
                        > > this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-tool
                        > > without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware even
                        if
                        > > you have to pay for.
                        > >
                        > > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my
                        resume,
                        > do
                        > > you think it will hurt or help?
                        > >
                        > > I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what
                        type
                        > of
                        > > car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are able
                        > to
                        > > design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to design
                        > a
                        > > PCB that is EMC compatible.
                        > >
                        > > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD,
                        > >
                        > > AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > > Martin
                        > >
                        >
                      • boons007
                        I agree... Resumes are SQUAT... Many are just KEY words for HR. The important thing is can they do the job... at your price and schedule ... So did your Guy do
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 6, 2009
                          I agree... Resumes are SQUAT... Many are just KEY words for HR.

                          The important thing is can they do the job... at your price and
                          schedule ...

                          So did your Guy do it $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
                          These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to
                          look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will
                          work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..

                          BoonS


                          --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "logicresearch"
                          <logicresearch@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I think if I was going to hire someone, I couldn't really give a
                          rats
                          > patutee what the resume looked like as long as they did the job.
                          > I have worked with guys who have police tracking fitted, but they
                          are
                          > brilliant.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > for my ee hobby.. I have autotrax... Lowest cost $99,
                          > > full version SCH, PCB and a simulator.
                          > > http://kov.com/Default.aspx
                          > >
                          > > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design
                          > service ,
                          > > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
                          > > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are
                          basicaly
                          > > history... Many are now dust or combined...
                          > >
                          > > Due to china Layout people costing $15 ~ $20 a "DAY"....
                          > including
                          > > benifits... You can make more being a plummer...
                          > >
                          > > PCB Layout people are a dime a dozen now...
                          > > except for those who operate the three largest Most expensive
                          > > software packages. Cadence , Mentor, and Zuken.. and they really
                          > > only pay well for IC, RF and Hybrid designers...
                          > >
                          > > BoonS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "martin_schoenegg"
                          > > <Martin.Schoenegg@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Steve,
                          > > >
                          > > > > So I'm going with Eagle for now because 1. I found a book
                          about
                          > > > using it in the Half Price Bookstore, 2. Someone made a
                          library
                          > > for
                          > > > the PIC32MXxxxx series for which I'm doing a few projects, and
                          3.
                          > > It
                          > > > is free or cheap.
                          > > >
                          > > > There are a few unlimited and 100% free PCB-tools available,
                          so
                          > > there
                          > > > is no need to work with crippleware. IMHO EAGLE is crippleware
                          > and
                          > > > this opinion is not limited to the free version. A schematic-
                          tool
                          > > > without any support for hirarchical designs is crippleware
                          even
                          > if
                          > > > you have to pay for.
                          > > >
                          > > > > I graduate at the end of this year. If I put Eagle on my
                          > resume,
                          > > do
                          > > > you think it will hurt or help?
                          > > >
                          > > > I guess, the question about tools is as stupid as to say what
                          > type
                          > > of
                          > > > car you learned to drive. It is more interesting if you are
                          able
                          > > to
                          > > > design good electronics and that you have the knowledge to
                          design
                          > > a
                          > > > PCB that is EMC compatible.
                          > > >
                          > > > > In my classes, AutoCAD is the official CAD,
                          > > >
                          > > > AutoCAD for ECAD? Never seen this in the field.
                          > > >
                          > > > Regards
                          > > > Martin
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • logicresearch
                          ... He is now very high up in engineering (about 2IC I beleive) and greatly respected by everyone for his work attitude, ethics and ability - on the same pay
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 6, 2009
                            >
                            > So did your Guy do it $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
                            > These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to
                            > look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will
                            > work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..
                            >
                            > BoonS

                            He is now very high up in engineering (about 2IC I beleive) and greatly
                            respected by everyone for his work attitude, ethics and ability - on
                            the same pay rate as everyone else and as he desirves.

                            Daryl.
                          • logicresearch
                            I should add also that although he was a bad bugger in his younger day, he realised the error of his ways and is a highly respected man these days. I regeard
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 6, 2009
                              I should add also that although he was a bad bugger in his younger day,
                              he realised the error of his ways and is a highly respected man these
                              days. I regeard him in the highest for that alone, then more again for
                              his work abilities.

                              Daryl.


                              --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "logicresearch"
                              <logicresearch@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > So did your Guy do it $20 a "DAY" including overhead like China ?
                              > > These days businesses get a Chinese EE with a masters to also to
                              > > look over the design when he is laying it out.... OH and he will
                              > > work 12+ hours a day without a complaint..
                              > >
                              > > BoonS
                              >
                              > He is now very high up in engineering (about 2IC I beleive) and
                              greatly
                              > respected by everyone for his work attitude, ethics and ability - on
                              > the same pay rate as everyone else and as he desirves.
                              >
                              > Daryl.
                              >
                            • Steve
                              ... From the perspective of someone who has been looking/working without a degree, all the HR departments I ve interacted with are not interested in even
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
                                --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > I agree... Resumes are SQUAT... Many are just KEY words for HR.
                                >
                                > The important thing is can they do the job... at your price and
                                > schedule ...

                                From the perspective of someone who has been looking/working without
                                a degree, all the HR departments I've interacted with are not
                                interested in even considering someone without that official
                                paperwork. With few exceptions, I've ended up working in one-man TV
                                shops, because then the person interviewing me can do the job, and so
                                can tell if I know what I'm talking about.

                                Two exceptions, I had a personal recommendation from a friend who
                                worked there. The third exception, I was hired into a very low-skill
                                level position with the intention to move me into R&D after about 9
                                months, and I'm sure they were checking me out to make sure I was
                                what I seemed. Unfortunately the corporation that had bought it out
                                three years before had other plans and they closed the factory.

                                Fortunately, that made me eligible for Displaced Worker Retraining,
                                which I hadn't even known existed, so I get up to 2 years of
                                schooling paid for, with a bit extra to help pay for books and
                                supplies. Thank the great spaghetti monster for Amazon's used book
                                sellers!

                                I'm pushing 50. It is my intention to get as much as I can out of
                                school and get good scores from all my instructors. So I'm often
                                there an hour before class starts, I am taking additional classes not
                                required in my course (microcontrollers in assembler and C, for
                                example), finally getting a CET Associate and Journeyman (preferably
                                at least two) and the GROL, and I started a club that is building a
                                CNC mill that I'm designing.

                                I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be
                                thinking about my age.

                                Steve Greenfield
                              • Stefan Trethan
                                It is difficult but not impossible to make non-documented experience and skills count for you. You need to try smaller companies as you say, where you will
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
                                  It is difficult but not impossible to make non-documented experience
                                  and skills count for you.
                                  You need to try smaller companies as you say, where you will speak
                                  with an engineer and not just a form filling robot. Definitely avoid
                                  any general purpose recruitment agents, they are only wasting your
                                  time.

                                  Someone has to take a risk to employ you despite the missing
                                  paperwork, you must make them confident that it is worth it.
                                  Demand reasonable pay, you can't expect to get as much as someone with
                                  a degree, but if you bring more to the job than your paperwork says
                                  you deserve more in return.

                                  Anyway for you personally this advise is useless now, since you will
                                  have all the paperwork an employer can dream of ;-)
                                  I don't know when you want to retire, but it will probably be longer
                                  than most young employees seem to stay in one company these days. Your
                                  potential employer ought to consider that.


                                  ST


                                  On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

                                  > From the perspective of someone who has been looking/working without
                                  > a degree, all the HR departments I've interacted with are not
                                  > interested in even considering someone without that official
                                  > paperwork. With few exceptions, I've ended up working in one-man TV
                                  > shops, because then the person interviewing me can do the job, and so
                                  > can tell if I know what I'm talking about.
                                  >
                                  > Two exceptions, I had a personal recommendation from a friend who
                                  > worked there. The third exception, I was hired into a very low-skill
                                  > level position with the intention to move me into R&D after about 9
                                  > months, and I'm sure they were checking me out to make sure I was
                                  > what I seemed. Unfortunately the corporation that had bought it out
                                  > three years before had other plans and they closed the factory.
                                  >
                                  > Fortunately, that made me eligible for Displaced Worker Retraining,
                                  > which I hadn't even known existed, so I get up to 2 years of
                                  > schooling paid for, with a bit extra to help pay for books and
                                  > supplies. Thank the great spaghetti monster for Amazon's used book
                                  > sellers!
                                  >
                                  > I'm pushing 50. It is my intention to get as much as I can out of
                                  > school and get good scores from all my instructors. So I'm often
                                  > there an hour before class starts, I am taking additional classes not
                                  > required in my course (microcontrollers in assembler and C, for
                                  > example), finally getting a CET Associate and Journeyman (preferably
                                  > at least two) and the GROL, and I started a club that is building a
                                  > CNC mill that I'm designing.
                                  >
                                  > I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be
                                  > thinking about my age.
                                  >
                                  > Steve Greenfield
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Steve Wiseman
                                  ... Huh? If you re saying Protel is history, that s far from the case. They ve renamed to Altium (for some reason, when they added a bunch of FPGA and software
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 13, 2009
                                    2009/2/6 boons007 <boons007@...>:

                                    > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design service ,
                                    > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
                                    > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are basicaly
                                    > history... Many are now dust or combined..

                                    Huh? If you're saying Protel is history, that's far from the case.
                                    They've renamed to Altium (for some reason, when they added a bunch of
                                    FPGA and software tools, they changed the name).
                                    Their Schematic and PCB tools are really rather good.
                                    www.altium.com/products/altiumdesigner/

                                    (No connection, just a user)

                                    Steve

                                    Steve
                                  • boons007
                                    True altium designer is the next generation sort of like Horse and Buggy transformeation to the Car... the Omish still do use the horse and buggy... Protel the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 18, 2009
                                      True altium designer is the next generation
                                      sort of like Horse and Buggy transformeation to the Car...
                                      the Omish still do use the horse and buggy...
                                      Protel the software package is history just like PCAD (also owned
                                      by altium)

                                      I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the
                                      market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to
                                      china, indonesia, malaysia etc..

                                      After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have
                                      decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per
                                      hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
                                      Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25
                                      a "DAY" depending on country...

                                      the USA rate $75 ~ $150 per hour for services (PCB designer,
                                      depreciated software Cost, Anual maintenance, and Overhead is no
                                      longer ompetitive..

                                      so to compete...
                                      I evaluated the P/L and am now considering changing to "Techincal
                                      interfcae/SALES" for USA companies that need the service to change
                                      and use those "LOW WAGE" Design Houses.. therby reducing the USA
                                      employment oportunities and the general wages in the USA for that
                                      mid level market...

                                      I have come to the conclusion. It's more Lucrative and fewer
                                      ULSERS in sales nowdays than actualy doing the work. Just look at
                                      the "ADVERTISING and SALES" budget versus "ENGINEERING" budget in
                                      most modern USA companies... Also look at the number of Millionares
                                      from sales/Marketing versus Engineering....

                                      after being layed off..
                                      Have you learned the next USA Engineers job technical phrase...
                                      WOULD YOU LIKE TO SUPER SIZE IT ???


                                      BoonS






                                      --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve Wiseman <sjwiseman@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > 2009/2/6 boons007 <boons007@...>:
                                      >
                                      > > I in the past when it was a good buisness had a PCB design
                                      service ,
                                      > > used, Zuken, Mentor, Cadence, PCAD, ORCAD, PADS, Protel...
                                      > > I liked protel the best... of the middle end but they are
                                      basicaly
                                      > > history... Many are now dust or combined..
                                      >
                                      > Huh? If you're saying Protel is history, that's far from the case.
                                      > They've renamed to Altium (for some reason, when they added a
                                      bunch of
                                      > FPGA and software tools, they changed the name).
                                      > Their Schematic and PCB tools are really rather good.
                                      > www.altium.com/products/altiumdesigner/
                                      >
                                      > (No connection, just a user)
                                      >
                                      > Steve
                                      >
                                      > Steve
                                      >
                                    • phildimond
                                      Not that this has anything to actually do with Homebrew PCBs, but this is the problem with outsourcing. Simple economics and risk management are lost in this
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 18, 2009
                                        Not that this has anything to actually do with Homebrew PCBs, but this
                                        is the problem with outsourcing. Simple economics and risk management
                                        are lost in this process.

                                        The NREs (Non-Recurring Engineering charges) are divided across the
                                        manufacturing volume as a cost. Now, if we make 20 of the product,
                                        then the design NRE will be very large per unit. If we make 20,000 of
                                        them, it will be small. The difference per unit between a high and a
                                        low cost designer is tiny.

                                        However, by having the design done in-house or by a separate design
                                        contractor locally, you have a much greater level of control over the
                                        design copyrights, and consequently a lower risk profile.

                                        I've had clients discover this the hard way .. outsource the design to
                                        India, and then discover that the designer suddenly becomes their
                                        competitor by making some small improvements or changes to the product
                                        and selling it himself. And what can we do about it? Nothing, because
                                        there is no design protection in those countries worth speaking of.

                                        And I've seen it more than once.

                                        Manufacturing outsourcing is an absolute must, simply because it is
                                        the only way to compete at the manufacturing level with anyone else
                                        making product in those countries. But keep the real value of the
                                        product - the intellectual property embodied in it - at home.

                                        And I'm not an American .. I'm Australian. Outsource to us at 65 cents
                                        on the dollar for design work if you really want to save some money -
                                        at least we do have decent intellectual property protection laws here.

                                        But when your clients say they're going to get the design (or
                                        programming) done in India or whatever .. tell them they're probably
                                        giving away the very core asset of their company while they're doing it.

                                        Even more off topic .. what really frightens me is outsourced data
                                        management. The thought of my bank outsourcing all of my personal
                                        details to a database running in India scares the heck out of me. If
                                        there was one thing I could change, it would be to amend the data
                                        privacy laws in my country to state that not only can the data not be
                                        revealed to a third party, it must be fully managed in the country in
                                        which it was originally provided. The second that data crosses a
                                        national boundary it may as well be posted on the internet for all the
                                        security on it is worth. Ask your bank where their data is managed and
                                        take your money out if it is in a country other than the one you live
                                        in .. or think about the possibility of trying to sue a Cambodian data
                                        operations company for revealing your financial details to your
                                        ex-spouse (and I'm married and have no ex! :^)

                                        Phil

                                        --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the
                                        > market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to
                                        > china, indonesia, malaysia etc..
                                        >
                                        > After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have
                                        > decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per
                                        > hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
                                        > Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25
                                        > a "DAY" depending on country...
                                      • Donald H Locker
                                        That s the only way to _really_ impress them. Get a foot in the door and show them you can do the job. Keep it up! Flexibility, consistency, accuracy,
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 23, 2009
                                          That's the only way to _really_ impress them. Get a foot in the door and show
                                          them you can do the job. Keep it up!

                                          Flexibility, consistency, accuracy, quality -- do it all.

                                          (pushing the low end of 60 and just started a new R&D job.)
                                          Donald.

                                          Steve wrote:

                                          [snip]

                                          > I want to be impressive enough that potential employers won't even be
                                          > thinking about my age.
                                          >
                                          > Steve Greenfield
                                        • Steve
                                          I see that OrCAD has a free demo limited in size of project, I don t recall that being available before. It is almost a Gig download so don t try this on
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 12, 2009
                                            I see that OrCAD has a free demo limited in size of project, I don't recall that being available before. It is almost a Gig download so don't try this on dialup.

                                            Steve Greenfield

                                            --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Henry Liu <henryjliu@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Silvercircuits.com offer pcb layout for $15/hr using Eagle pcb if you supply
                                            > the schematic. Probably not a good line to get into get rich.
                                            >
                                            > I'd say try to learn industry OrCAD or Altium designer (formerly Protel).
                                            > They should offer student licenses. When I was a EE, OrCAD and pspice
                                            > simulation were the rave to have on your resume.
                                            >
                                          • rtrtbb
                                            I ve been in this business about 30 years. You will be on a constant learning curve - in the past you did here about a few engineers that made it rich - it
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 13, 2009
                                              I've been in this business about 30 years. You will be on a constant learning curve - in the past you did here about a few engineers that made it rich - it looks like that might belong to china now. So if you are getting into this field you better love it. The work and lack of appreciation for your brilliance is lacking.
                                              There will always be a new CAD package to learn. It's important that you understand the concepts and have a fast learning curve. Eagle has a learning curve (at least for me). It's a German product written on a linux platform - translation and porting have taken it's toll.
                                              The biggest problem with CAD systems it the libraries are all wrong. You can't just put a part on the board and go. Normally you spend 90% of your time designing parts for your application. The parts basically have to be designed for the house that is going to manufacture the board. You will not make any money doing this. But as a hands on guy I think it is mandatory that an engineer know HOW TO design a board from concept through production. There will be cheap CAD designers for some time to come.
                                              I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle but it sure would be a good idea.


                                              --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "phildimond" <my-yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Not that this has anything to actually do with Homebrew PCBs, but this
                                              > is the problem with outsourcing. Simple economics and risk management
                                              > are lost in this process.
                                              >
                                              > The NREs (Non-Recurring Engineering charges) are divided across the
                                              > manufacturing volume as a cost. Now, if we make 20 of the product,
                                              > then the design NRE will be very large per unit. If we make 20,000 of
                                              > them, it will be small. The difference per unit between a high and a
                                              > low cost designer is tiny.
                                              >
                                              > However, by having the design done in-house or by a separate design
                                              > contractor locally, you have a much greater level of control over the
                                              > design copyrights, and consequently a lower risk profile.
                                              >
                                              > I've had clients discover this the hard way .. outsource the design to
                                              > India, and then discover that the designer suddenly becomes their
                                              > competitor by making some small improvements or changes to the product
                                              > and selling it himself. And what can we do about it? Nothing, because
                                              > there is no design protection in those countries worth speaking of.
                                              >
                                              > And I've seen it more than once.
                                              >
                                              > Manufacturing outsourcing is an absolute must, simply because it is
                                              > the only way to compete at the manufacturing level with anyone else
                                              > making product in those countries. But keep the real value of the
                                              > product - the intellectual property embodied in it - at home.
                                              >
                                              > And I'm not an American .. I'm Australian. Outsource to us at 65 cents
                                              > on the dollar for design work if you really want to save some money -
                                              > at least we do have decent intellectual property protection laws here.
                                              >
                                              > But when your clients say they're going to get the design (or
                                              > programming) done in India or whatever .. tell them they're probably
                                              > giving away the very core asset of their company while they're doing it.
                                              >
                                              > Even more off topic .. what really frightens me is outsourced data
                                              > management. The thought of my bank outsourcing all of my personal
                                              > details to a database running in India scares the heck out of me. If
                                              > there was one thing I could change, it would be to amend the data
                                              > privacy laws in my country to state that not only can the data not be
                                              > revealed to a third party, it must be fully managed in the country in
                                              > which it was originally provided. The second that data crosses a
                                              > national boundary it may as well be posted on the internet for all the
                                              > security on it is worth. Ask your bank where their data is managed and
                                              > take your money out if it is in a country other than the one you live
                                              > in .. or think about the possibility of trying to sue a Cambodian data
                                              > operations company for revealing your financial details to your
                                              > ex-spouse (and I'm married and have no ex! :^)
                                              >
                                              > Phil
                                              >
                                              > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "boons007" <boons007@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > I had decided not to buy Altuim Designer and go forward in the
                                              > > market bcause the pcb design market is being heavily outsourced to
                                              > > china, indonesia, malaysia etc..
                                              > >
                                              > > After "Slaving" in the business for too many years.. I have
                                              > > decided it's a loosing proposition to compete against $15~25 per
                                              > > hour including overhead for oversease Design services.
                                              > > Part of the reason for the low cost is PCB designer making $8 ~ 25
                                              > > a "DAY" depending on country...
                                              >
                                            • Stefan Trethan
                                              ... If you attribute it s shortcomings to translation and porting, you are far more generous a man than I. ;-) ... Yes. They usually are. ... I m not sure.
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 13, 2009
                                                On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:16 PM, rtrtbb <robert_terrell@...> wrote:
                                                > Eagle has a learning curve (at least for me).  It's a German product written on a linux platform - translation and porting have taken it's toll.

                                                If you attribute it's shortcomings to translation and porting, you are
                                                far more generous a man than I. ;-)

                                                > The biggest problem with CAD systems it the libraries are all wrong.

                                                Yes. They usually are.

                                                > I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle but it sure would be a good idea.

                                                I'm not sure. Even reviewed they will not be right for you or me.
                                                Probably they were right for someone as they are, just not us.

                                                I've accepted a long time ago libraries are not to be relied upon,
                                                with any PCB package.

                                                ST
                                              • Piers Goodhew
                                                ... CADSoft do have a public, we-don t-guarantee-it library sharing area:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 14, 2009
                                                  On 14/03/2009, at 2:16 AM, rtrtbb wrote:

                                                  > I don't know if there is a group to review and post parts for Eagle
                                                  > but it sure would be a good idea.

                                                  CADSoft do have a public, we-don't-guarantee-it library sharing area:

                                                  http://www.cadsoft.de/cgi-bin/download.pl?page=/home/cadsoft/html_public/download.htm.en&dir=pub/userfiles/libraries

                                                  And sparkfun also maintain a library which contains a good deal of the
                                                  stuff they sell, if you're able to limit yourself to just them.

                                                  Maybe that helps ...

                                                  PG
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