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OHP Film, Transperancy, Acetate Film

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  • Mr Crazy
    Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are the same or all are different? Which is the best for Toner Transfer? Parag ... Pinpoint
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 1, 2007
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      Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?

      Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

      Parag


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    • Stefan Trethan
      ... I m not sure if any of the above is ideal for TT (i consider them one and the same BTW). Some people have said it works, but most people seem to prefer
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 2, 2007
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        On 9/2/07, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
        > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?
        >
        > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
        >
        > Parag
        >
        >


        I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for TT (i consider them one
        and the same BTW). Some people have said it works, but most people
        seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.

        ST
      • Andrew
        ... When I used to do TT I used OHP transperancies and found there was as much variation from brand to brand as people find with different paper stocks. I
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 2, 2007
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          > > Mr Crazy wrote:
          > > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy
          > > and Acetate Films are the same or all are
          > > different?
          > >
          > > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

          > ST wrote:
          > I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for
          > TT (i consider them one and the same BTW).
          > Some people have said it works, but most people
          > seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.

          When I used to do TT I used OHP transperancies
          and found there was as much variation from brand
          to brand as people find with different paper
          stocks.

          I agree with ST that the three names above seem
          to be used interchangeably (even if there may be
          some technical difference I don't know of)
        • Mr Crazy
          Hi, I was asking for it as I am not getting good results with them for TT. What is the other reliable and reasonable method can be used for this? Photoresist
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 2, 2007
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            Hi,

            I was asking for it as I am not getting good results with them for TT. What is the other reliable and reasonable method can be used for this? Photoresist film?

            Parag

            Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote: > > Mr Crazy wrote:
            > > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy
            > > and Acetate Films are the same or all are
            > > different?
            > >
            > > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

            > ST wrote:
            > I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for
            > TT (i consider them one and the same BTW).
            > Some people have said it works, but most people
            > seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.

            When I used to do TT I used OHP transperancies
            and found there was as much variation from brand
            to brand as people find with different paper
            stocks.

            I agree with ST that the three names above seem
            to be used interchangeably (even if there may be
            some technical difference I don't know of)






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          • Len Warner
            ... transperancy is presumably a mis-spelling of transparency OHP Film and transparency film are probably synonymous in this context, though
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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              At 11:41 pm ((PDT)) Sat Sep 1, 2007, in Digest 2273 Mr Crazy wrote:
              >Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy

              'transperancy' is presumably a mis-spelling of 'transparency'

              'OHP Film' and 'transparency film' are probably synonymous
              in this context, though 'transparency film' has a quite different
              meaning in the context of silver-emulsion photography.

              >and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?

              'acetate film' is a subset of OHP film and is likely to be
              unsuitable for toner transfer (TT) because it is likely to melt
              in the laser printer fuser and occasion an expensive repair.

              >Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

              None of these terms is an adequate specification for TT.

              You need a film which is safe against laser fuser temperature,
              so you need either a laser transparency film or a laser-safe
              inkjet transparency film.

              If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film for TT at all,
              since the purpose is not projection of the image but
              mechanical transfer of the toner medium.

              Note that many people are using inkjet printer _paper_.

              The reason for this is that the structure of some papers includes
              a layer which separates in water, allowing the paper to be peeled
              from the toner image. In others, the backing paper disintegrates
              on soaking and can be removed with mechanical encouragement.

              Some magazine and catalogue paper is coated and separates
              in water so this provides a very cheap source which for many
              people gives satisfactory results, though you will have to
              experiment until you find ones which work for you.

              If you look in the group archives you will find plenty of discussion
              on these topics.


              Regards, LenW
            • Len Warner
              ... Some years ago, at the college where I then taught computing, so did some of the newly (but partially) computer-literate teaching staff. As they began to
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                At 7:26 am ((PDT)) Sun Sep 2, 2007, in Digest 2274 Stefan Trethan wrote:
                >On 9/2/07, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
                > > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films
                > > are the same or all are different?[snip]
                >
                >I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for TT (i consider them one
                >and the same BTW).

                Some years ago, at the college where I then taught computing, so
                did some of the newly (but partially) computer-literate teaching staff.

                As they began to word-process their classroom presentations and
                sought to emulate more knowledgeable staff who were printing direct
                to OHP slides or photocopying printed copy**, they discovered
                the hard way that the _acetate_ film on which they had been used to
                hand-draw was inadequate.

                The least-bad outcome was that the sheet cockled in the printer
                or photocopier and the result was probably unusable.

                The worst outcome was that the sheet never emerged - it had
                wrapped itself into a heat sealed tube around one of the fuser
                rollers and the printer or copier would be out of action until
                a technician could find the time to dismantle it.

                [** We found that a denser projection image could be obtained
                by photocopying paper printouts than by laser printing directly.
                The laser printers of the time couldn't transfer as much toner to
                plastic film as they could to paper, while the copiers had no
                problem making a dense copy onto film.]

                Later, we had another (but less disastrous) learning experience
                when new-model fuser temperatures went up and some
                photocopier transparency film proved insufficiently heat resistant
                and was likely to distort during printing. ISTR that some types
                of film had a temporary paper backing sheet which made them
                behave better than un-backed ones - and there was a warning
                on the pack not to remove the backing before printing.

                'Acetate' is an old term for old material which may still be available.
                Don't specify it and don't try to put it through a laser printer.


                Regards, LenW
              • Mr Crazy
                Hi Len, Thanks for the answer, no wonder I was not getting the results. I will try with the methods you suggested, laser transparency film, inkjet paper, mag
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                  Hi Len,

                  Thanks for the answer, no wonder I was not getting the results. I will try with the methods you suggested, laser transparency film, inkjet paper, mag paper.

                  The last time I tried with the transparency, image really became skewed at one end. Drawing was in perfect rectangle, but printout was not, I think it was because of transparency not being Laser transparency.

                  regards,
                  Parag

                  Len Warner <novost@...> wrote: At 11:41 pm ((PDT)) Sat Sep 1, 2007, in Digest 2273 Mr Crazy wrote:
                  >Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy

                  'transperancy' is presumably a mis-spelling of 'transparency'

                  'OHP Film' and 'transparency film' are probably synonymous
                  in this context, though 'transparency film' has a quite different
                  meaning in the context of silver-emulsion photography.

                  >and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?

                  'acetate film' is a subset of OHP film and is likely to be
                  unsuitable for toner transfer (TT) because it is likely to melt
                  in the laser printer fuser and occasion an expensive repair.

                  >Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

                  None of these terms is an adequate specification for TT.

                  You need a film which is safe against laser fuser temperature,
                  so you need either a laser transparency film or a laser-safe
                  inkjet transparency film.

                  If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film for TT at all,
                  since the purpose is not projection of the image but
                  mechanical transfer of the toner medium.

                  Note that many people are using inkjet printer _paper_.

                  The reason for this is that the structure of some papers includes
                  a layer which separates in water, allowing the paper to be peeled
                  from the toner image. In others, the backing paper disintegrates
                  on soaking and can be removed with mechanical encouragement.

                  Some magazine and catalogue paper is coated and separates
                  in water so this provides a very cheap source which for many
                  people gives satisfactory results, though you will have to
                  experiment until you find ones which work for you.

                  If you look in the group archives you will find plenty of discussion
                  on these topics.

                  Regards, LenW






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                • Andrew
                  ... My reasons for using the OHP trannys many moons ago was because the toner transfer worked quite well and there was no paper fuzz that I got when
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                    > Len Warner wrote:
                    > <SNIP>
                    > If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film
                    > for TT at all, since the purpose is not
                    > projection of the image but mechanical
                    > transfer of the toner medium.
                    >
                    > Note that many people are using inkjet
                    > printer _paper_.
                    >

                    My reasons for using the OHP trannys many
                    moons ago was because the toner transfer
                    worked quite well and there was no paper
                    fuzz that I got when experimenting with
                    papers.

                    These days with a plethora of clay coat
                    type inkjet papers around there may be no
                    advantage to the OHPs. I have just bought
                    some homebrand ink jet paper to give a
                    try to see how it compares.
                  • Thomas D. Kask
                    I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have accomplished TT PCBs with
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                      I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
                      weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
                      accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
                      guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
                      using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
                      "what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
                      does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
                      or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
                      Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
                      south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
                      transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
                      images transferred to my CC board.



                      Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
                      TT paper or transparency.



                      Thanks.

                      tdkask



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • timbomcnuckle
                      save your few dollars- use glossy magazine paper- don t worry if it is printed upon already. This material works great, disolves great- overall great results!
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                        save your few dollars- use glossy magazine paper- don't worry if it is
                        printed upon already. This material works great, disolves great-
                        overall great results! found out the hard way./jd


                        --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas D. Kask" <tdkask@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
                        > weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
                        > accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
                        > guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
                        > using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
                        > "what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
                        > does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
                        > or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
                        > Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
                        > south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
                        > transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
                        > images transferred to my CC board.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
                        > TT paper or transparency.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > tdkask
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • DJ Delorie
                        I use the Pulsar paper with very good results. The other trick I ve read about but not yet tried is to use plain gelatin, diluted 4:1, to coat your own paper.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                          I use the Pulsar paper with very good results. The other trick I've
                          read about but not yet tried is to use plain gelatin, diluted 4:1, to
                          coat your own paper.

                          The key is that whatever paper you use should have a coating that is
                          (1) heat resistant but (2) water soluble. Some "glossy" papers have a
                          clay coating on them, for example.

                          DO humidify your paper. A few minutes in a closed box with a
                          container of water (don't get the paper wet) softens the fibers so
                          they lay flat and take a more even layer of toner.

                          DO use sufficient heat, else the toner won't stick well.

                          DO let the paper soak fully. Pulsar paper just floats away when it's
                          done, resist the urge to help it along.

                          DO clean the board well, and dry fully. Keep your grubby fingers off
                          the copper! And the paper! And the toner!
                        • Jim Hutchinson
                          ... Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a carrier sheet or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ??? and dose the ink load have an effect ie
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                            timbomcnuckle wrote:
                            > save your few dollars- use glossy magazine paper- don't worry if it is
                            > printed upon already. This material works great, disolves great-
                            > overall great results! found out the hard way./jd
                            >
                            >
                            Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier
                            sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ??? and dose the ink load have an
                            effect ie sparse print vs dark picture ...
                            Jim
                            > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas D. Kask" <tdkask@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
                            >> weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
                            >> accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
                            >> guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
                            >> using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
                            >> "what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
                            >> does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
                            >> or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
                            >> Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
                            >> south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
                            >> transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
                            >> images transferred to my CC board.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
                            >> TT paper or transparency.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Thanks.
                            >>
                            >> tdkask
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • DJ Delorie
                            ... I always cut out a section of paper just big enough and tape it to plain copy paper when I print, it works just fine. No reason why you couldn t do it
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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                              Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> writes:
                              > Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier
                              > sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ???

                              I always cut out a section of paper "just big enough" and tape it to
                              plain copy paper when I print, it works just fine. No reason why you
                              couldn't do it with magazine paper. What I do is print on the plain
                              paper first, so I know where the image is going to show up, then tape
                              the TT paper over that image. I haven't missed the TT paper yet :-)
                            • keith
                              ... What do you use for tape? Having it come off could be messy. -- Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                                On Monday 03 September 2007 22:18, DJ Delorie wrote:
                                > Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> writes:
                                > > Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier
                                > > sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ???
                                >
                                > I always cut out a section of paper "just big enough" and tape it to
                                > plain copy paper when I print, it works just fine. No reason why you
                                > couldn't do it with magazine paper. What I do is print on the plain
                                > paper first, so I know where the image is going to show up, then tape
                                > the TT paper over that image. I haven't missed the TT paper yet :-)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                What do you use for tape? Having it come off could be messy.
                                --
                                Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC
                              • DJ Delorie
                                ... Plain old cellophane (scotch) tape. I don t try to peel it off the TT paper; peel it off the plain backing paper, then cut it off the TT paper. Or I put
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                                  keith <kabowers@...> writes:
                                  > What do you use for tape? Having it come off could be messy.

                                  Plain old cellophane (scotch) tape. I don't try to peel it off the TT
                                  paper; peel it off the plain backing paper, then cut it off the TT
                                  paper. Or I put the whole thing in a paper cutter and just cut the
                                  tape off the TT paper; the carrier get cut too but who cares? Or cut
                                  the TT paper off the backing with scissors.

                                  Note: you ONLY tape the LEADING edge of the TT paper; not the corners,
                                  and not all the way around! The "leading" edge is the one that enters
                                  the printer first.

                                  When done right, you can lift the TT paper up and easily cut the tape
                                  off without having to remove the tape from the carrier.
                                • Dennis
                                  Hi Parag, I can t answer your questions about the differences, but can tell you what did and didn t work for me. I ve had good success with HP Inkjet
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                    Hi Parag,

                                    I can't answer your questions about the differences, but can tell you
                                    what did and didn't work for me.

                                    I've had good success with HP Inkjet transparencies. They have
                                    several grades; I can give the exact part number if you're
                                    interested. I'm using a Lexmark Optra E+ printer with toner refills;
                                    I haven't found toner to be a significant variable. I've used the OEM
                                    toner and any brand of refill and haven't noticed a difference.

                                    Nothing else worked very well. Some CompUSA inkjet transparencies
                                    looked like they'd do well (better toner coverage), but I couldn't get
                                    a good transfer. May need to work on ironing time. Also tried laser
                                    transparencies and transparencies used for color wax printers (Phaser
                                    type). Nothing worked as well as the HP inkjet transparencies.

                                    With all inkjet transparencies, I get virtually 100% of the toner
                                    transferred. Laser transparencies appear to have a greater affinity
                                    for toner; but I was doing a "hot" remove back then. With inkjet, I
                                    do a "cool" remove.

                                    Since I'm not using the laminator technique, I find that the
                                    transparencies allow me to apply heat/pressure where needed. You need
                                    to cover the transparency with a paper towel to protect the carrier
                                    from melting. This will also help for double sided applications
                                    because you can see through the carrier to line things up. To date,
                                    the only double sided boards I've done were for card edge connectors
                                    and I did the layout so that I only needed the fingers to line up --
                                    basically 2 single sided layouts on the same board.

                                    The paper towel will take a pass or two to shed excess fibers; then
                                    sticking to the transparency will lessen.

                                    I typically have some pin holes, but nothing that's more than cosmetic
                                    and I've never noticed any etching all the way through the copper. If
                                    you remove all of the toner (I used to leave it to prevent oxidation),
                                    you could scrub the copper to remove any oxidized spots. Copper fills
                                    are more problematic, but they can be touched up with an etch resist
                                    (I use fine point black Sharpies, ultra-fine and industrial chisel
                                    tips don't work). But that's purely cosmetic. If you're worried
                                    about conductors being compromised by the pitting, you could make them
                                    wider or tin the traces with solder. I tried using a solder pot for
                                    tinning, but temperature appears to be important and I need to perfect
                                    my technique. I've only had traces from an inkjet transparency
                                    transfer that were "bad" enough for me to want to go over it with a
                                    Sharpie once; I was too lazy to clean the board and try again. That
                                    board was 100mmX160mm (posted with my photos).

                                    An upside to my inkjet transparency method is that once ironing is
                                    done and the board has cooled to the touch, I'm almost ready to etch.
                                    No soaking/rubbing or dealing with paper fibers.

                                    I use a toothbrush scrub with some liquid soap to remove any traces of
                                    the coating from the transparencies. Then I do any touch-up before
                                    etching.

                                    One last thing. Since the carrier is transparent, I can see how much
                                    traces are spreading. I can also see how small the pad/via holes are
                                    getting. I like to have them almost closed to use as a pilot hole for
                                    drilling. I choose the smallest hole diameter for all holes. For
                                    library components, I put a via on them (there are times when Eagle
                                    complains). I usually end up cutting and pasting the metal/vias to a
                                    different board, replacing library pads with vias, and arraying the
                                    pattern to fill an 8.5x11 sheet for printing.

                                    I have some pictures posted for an inkjet transfer.

                                    Regards,
                                    Dennis

                                    --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are
                                    the same or all are different?
                                    >
                                    > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
                                    >
                                    > Parag
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