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Re: Removing ferric chloride stains

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  • adriano-sar
    ... use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 8, 2006
      > I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
      > stains, so I looked up the Mega Electronics data sheet on the stuff
      > they sell (its made by Bungard). Its simply oxalic acid crystals and
      > rubbing with rhubarb leaves should work just as well, they contain
      > oxalic acid. Its quite poisonous, BTW.

      use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain
      residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate
    • Len Warner
      ... Fisio, if you look back in the message archive you will see that this thread is for people who already have ferric stains and would like to be rid of them.
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 9, 2006
        At 9:52 am (PDT) Sun Oct 8, 2006, adriano-sar wrote:
        >At 5:44 am (PDT) Tue Oct 3, 2006 leon_heller wrote:
        > > I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
        > > stains...oxalic acid crystals and rubbing with rhubarb leaves
        > > should work just as well, they contain oxalic acid.
        > > Its quite poisonous, BTW.
        >
        >use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain
        >residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate

        Fisio, if you look back in the message archive you will see that
        this thread is for people who already have ferric stains and would
        like to be rid of them.

        They have already been advised that there are cleaner etchants.

        If you really mean to recommend HCl+HOOH as a stain remover,
        isn't this just a little bit aggressive for the task? (It will attack
        natural fibres and most common metals.)

        I would endorse the use of oxalic acid.

        Apart from its toxicity by ingestion, it is a relatively harmless
        fruit acid. As such, it is easily mistaken for ordinary culinary
        ingredients such as citric acid or cream of tartar [potassium
        hydrogen tartrate]. If you buy in bulk make sure it is labelled
        clearly and not stored near foodstuffs.

        It is the active ingredient in the "Stain Devil" rust stain remover,
        which comes in safety packaging.

        The toxicity is because calcium oxalate is not very soluble.
        Once the oxalic acid has been absorbed from the gut it
        combines with calcium ions in the blood to form a precipitate
        which clogs the kidneys, leading to kidney failure. Hence
        the occasional poisonings of the ignorant or starving by
        rhubarb leaves. The stems contain much less oxalic
        acid and are delicious and safe to eat. Even so, I prefer
        to eat mine with evaporated milk, just to be sure the residual
        oxalic acid is bound in my gut rather than my bloodstream.

        As a stain remover, rhubarb leaves seem a good way of
        replacing ferric stains with chlorophyll stains ;-)
        (NB: chlorophyll dissolves in alcohol or bio-detergents.)

        Oxalic acid acts as a mild reducing agent and converts the
        brown ferric ion to pale green ferrous. I'm guessing the
        ferrous ion is more water-soluble than ferric.

        Other common chemicals which _might_ work are:-
        * citric acid [lemon juice], (nowadays used in preference to chromic
        acid to pickle new stainless steel to remove surface free iron);
        * cream of tartar + glucose, (the kind of slow reducing agent used
        to deposit silver mirrors); or
        * acetic acid [vinegar], (acetates are often very soluble).
        None is specially toxic and they might already be in your kitchen.

        Perhaps Mycroft would care to comment on these suggestions?


        Regards, LenW
      • Bill Maxwell
        There is news media story current here in Australia that hydrogen peroxide is about to be, or has been, placed on the controlled chemicals list because of its
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 9, 2006
          There is news media story current here in Australia that hydrogen peroxide
          is about to be, or has been, placed on the controlled chemicals list because
          of its potential in terrorist bomb manufacture. This has the hair-dressing
          industry in a quandry. Maybe the pcb homebrewer should join that debate?

          Bill
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Len Warner" <yahoo@...>
          To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:30 PM
          Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re:Removing ferric chloride stains


          > At 9:52 am (PDT) Sun Oct 8, 2006, adriano-sar wrote:
          >>At 5:44 am (PDT) Tue Oct 3, 2006 leon_heller wrote:
          >> > I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
          >> > stains...oxalic acid crystals and rubbing with rhubarb leaves
          >> > should work just as well, they contain oxalic acid.
          >> > Its quite poisonous, BTW.
          >>
          >>use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain
          >>residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate
          >
          > Fisio, if you look back in the message archive you will see that
          > this thread is for people who already have ferric stains and would
          > like to be rid of them.
          >
          > They have already been advised that there are cleaner etchants.
          >
          > If you really mean to recommend HCl+HOOH as a stain remover,
          > isn't this just a little bit aggressive for the task? (It will attack
          > natural fibres and most common metals.)
          >
          > I would endorse the use of oxalic acid.
          >
          > Apart from its toxicity by ingestion, it is a relatively harmless
          > fruit acid. As such, it is easily mistaken for ordinary culinary
          > ingredients such as citric acid or cream of tartar [potassium
          > hydrogen tartrate]. If you buy in bulk make sure it is labelled
          > clearly and not stored near foodstuffs.
          >
          > It is the active ingredient in the "Stain Devil" rust stain remover,
          > which comes in safety packaging.
          >
          > The toxicity is because calcium oxalate is not very soluble.
          > Once the oxalic acid has been absorbed from the gut it
          > combines with calcium ions in the blood to form a precipitate
          > which clogs the kidneys, leading to kidney failure. Hence
          > the occasional poisonings of the ignorant or starving by
          > rhubarb leaves. The stems contain much less oxalic
          > acid and are delicious and safe to eat. Even so, I prefer
          > to eat mine with evaporated milk, just to be sure the residual
          > oxalic acid is bound in my gut rather than my bloodstream.
          >
          > As a stain remover, rhubarb leaves seem a good way of
          > replacing ferric stains with chlorophyll stains ;-)
          > (NB: chlorophyll dissolves in alcohol or bio-detergents.)
          >
          > Oxalic acid acts as a mild reducing agent and converts the
          > brown ferric ion to pale green ferrous. I'm guessing the
          > ferrous ion is more water-soluble than ferric.
          >
          > Other common chemicals which _might_ work are:-
          > * citric acid [lemon juice], (nowadays used in preference to chromic
          > acid to pickle new stainless steel to remove surface free iron);
          > * cream of tartar + glucose, (the kind of slow reducing agent used
          > to deposit silver mirrors); or
          > * acetic acid [vinegar], (acetates are often very soluble).
          > None is specially toxic and they might already be in your kitchen.
          >
          > Perhaps Mycroft would care to comment on these suggestions?
          >
          >
          > Regards, LenW
          >
          >
          >
          > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
          > Photos:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
          >
          > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Stefan Trethan
          On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:41:48 +0200, Bill Maxwell ... I was voicing such fears right after London, i hope they don t go through with it
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 9, 2006
            On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:41:48 +0200, Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell@...>
            wrote:

            > There is news media story current here in Australia that hydrogen
            > peroxide
            > is about to be, or has been, placed on the controlled chemicals list
            > because
            > of its potential in terrorist bomb manufacture. This has the
            > hair-dressing
            > industry in a quandry. Maybe the pcb homebrewer should join that debate?
            > Bill


            I was voicing such fears right after London, i hope they don't go through
            with it or make it too difficult.

            ST
          • Philip Pemberton
            Stefan Trethan wrote: [ banning of peroxide ] ... They ve already done it with acetone (or at least the stuff that isn t adulterated with perfume, vitamin XYZ
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 11, 2006
              Stefan Trethan wrote:
              [ banning of peroxide ]
              > I was voicing such fears right after London, i hope they don't go through
              > with it or make it too difficult.

              They've already done it with acetone (or at least the stuff that isn't
              adulterated with perfume, vitamin XYZ and whatnot). Last time I tried to buy
              straight acetone, I ended up explaining exactly why I wanted it (removing
              toner and photoresist from PCBs, and stripping enamel paint). I still ended up
              leaving empty-handed ("you need Government authorisation to buy that, have you
              tried nail varnish remover?"). Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise FeCl
              etchant) is a pig to get around here.

              Some days I think the Government are doing all they can to stifle innovation
              in this country. If they keep going the way they are, we're going to have a
              nation with no scientists ("too dangerous"), no investment from sci-tech
              companies ("ooo, their government don't like our kind, let's open a lab in
              Berlin instead of London") and an economy based on selling houses and land to
              developers for the highest profit...

              </political-rant>

              --
              Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
              ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
              http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
            • Stefan Trethan
              On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 18:04:32 +0200, Philip Pemberton ... The sad thing is, none of the restrictions is likely to make much difference to terrorists, they ll
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 11, 2006
                On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 18:04:32 +0200, Philip Pemberton
                <ygroups@...> wrote:

                >
                > They've already done it with acetone (or at least the stuff that isn't
                > adulterated with perfume, vitamin XYZ and whatnot). Last time I tried to
                > buy
                > straight acetone, I ended up explaining exactly why I wanted it (removing
                > toner and photoresist from PCBs, and stripping enamel paint). I still
                > ended up
                > leaving empty-handed ("you need Government authorisation to buy that,
                > have you
                > tried nail varnish remover?"). Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise
                > FeCl
                > etchant) is a pig to get around here.
                > Some days I think the Government are doing all they can to stifle
                > innovation
                > in this country. If they keep going the way they are, we're going to
                > have a
                > nation with no scientists ("too dangerous"), no investment from sci-tech
                > companies ("ooo, their government don't like our kind, let's open a lab
                > in
                > Berlin instead of London") and an economy based on selling houses and
                > land to
                > developers for the highest profit...
                > </political-rant>


                The sad thing is, none of the restrictions is likely to make much
                difference to terrorists, they'll get it anyway.
                I'm pretty sure i'll still get those things "no questions asked", but
                maybe some years down the road...

                Maybe you can use lye instead of the sodium carbonate?

                What does it take to get the required authorisation? Would be interesting
                finding out...
                But even if it is not difficult, laws like that will kill of the remaining
                chemicals shops (which are only just slightly more commonplace than
                rockinghorse sh** anyway).

                ST
              • Philip Pemberton
                ... Yep. Probably by getting a ticket on the Dover-to-Calais ferry, picking up a few bottles of whatever they want from the continent, then coming back on the
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 11, 2006
                  Stefan Trethan wrote:
                  > The sad thing is, none of the restrictions is likely to make much
                  > difference to terrorists, they'll get it anyway.

                  Yep. Probably by getting a ticket on the Dover-to-Calais ferry, picking up a
                  few bottles of whatever they want from the continent, then coming back on the
                  ferry with the stuff hidden under a car seat...

                  > Maybe you can use lye instead of the sodium carbonate?

                  Lye? As in sodium hydroxide, the stuff you use to develop PCB photoresist?

                  Might work, but the real attraction of carbonate is that it's pretty much
                  harmless (it's used as a food additive, and sodium bicarbonate, aka
                  bicarbonate of soda, is a derivative of carbonate) and produces less froth,
                  foam and CO2 than bicarbonate of soda. Plus carbonate is cheaper and better
                  for dealing with FeCl spills - it's a powder so it'll soak up FeCl and
                  neutralise it at the same time.

                  IIRC, the trick is to add the carbonate until the solution is slightly
                  alkaline, then pour the resulting mess through a coffee filter to catch the
                  sludge. Pour the liquid away (it's just water and sodium salts IIRC), and
                  dispose of the filter 'in accordance with local laws' so to speak - that ends
                  up being covered in fairly pure iron and copper. If you wanted, you could
                  (theoretically) split that apart and make up a solid copper/iron lump over
                  time, then sell it to a scrap dealer once you've got enough (note how high
                  copper prices are these days).

                  > What does it take to get the required authorisation? Would be interesting
                  > finding out...

                  "I don't know" was the answer I got...

                  I've just been searching about, seems a few local decorator's supply shops
                  still sell the stuff. Guess I'll be spending this Saturday driving around
                  looking for somewhere that'll sell me some...

                  Oh look, £7 +VAT and P&P (£8 +VAT) for five litres:
                  <http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/CFS_Catalogue__Acetone_7.html>... Saves a
                  drive round town I guess.

                  *expects imminent arrival of the Thought Police and Black Helicopter Squad*

                  > But even if it is not difficult, laws like that will kill of the remaining
                  > chemicals shops (which are only just slightly more commonplace than
                  > rockinghorse sh** anyway).

                  I found a neat article on aluminium anodising
                  (<http://astro.neutral.org/anodise.shtml>) that mentioned a site called
                  TheChemicalShop.com (<http://www.thechemicalshop.com/>, but mute your speakers
                  first, at least until you navigate away from the main page - there's a Flash
                  video on there, complete with incredibly annoying sound effects and recorded
                  speech). Looks like they sell pretty much anything and everything the amateur
                  scientist could want, for a price. Ebay seems to be a pretty good source too,
                  despite their "NO CHEMICALS!" policy... LOL.

                  I'll have to dig out my copy of 'Electronic Prototype Construction' (the
                  'Kasten book') and read up on CuCl etching baths. Actually, ISTR that book has
                  some really 'interesting' (read: dangerous) chemistry listed. Stuff like gold
                  plating with cyanide compounds...

                  *looks*

                  Oh, here it is. Page 244. Potassium gold cyanide and citric acid...

                  And more neat stuff - screen printing the component overlay print...
                  A little hint from page 310 - if you have to solder an IC socket pin on both
                  the top and bottom side, use some solder paste to solder the topside, then
                  solder the bottom side in the normal way (i.e. solder wire)

                  Shame it doesn't really cover front panel lettering. So far the only way I've
                  found to put legends on black panels is a Letraset rubdown transfer sheet and
                  a can of Humbrol spray-on clear-coat. White and aluminium panels are easy - an
                  inkjet acetate and a can of 3M Photo-Mount usually works for me. It's the
                  black ones that are a pain, and I've just bought a box full of black 'power
                  supply' cases (though they're just the right size for USB peripherals and such)...

                  --
                  Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
                  ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
                  http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
                • Stefan Trethan
                  On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:07:24 +0200, Philip Pemberton ... Ok, what about lime (from the builders yard)? ST
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                    On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:07:24 +0200, Philip Pemberton
                    <ygroups@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Lye? As in sodium hydroxide, the stuff you use to develop PCB
                    > photoresist?
                    > Might work, but the real attraction of carbonate is that it's pretty much
                    > harmless (it's used as a food additive, and sodium bicarbonate, aka
                    > bicarbonate of soda, is a derivative of carbonate) and produces less
                    > froth,
                    > foam and CO2 than bicarbonate of soda. Plus carbonate is cheaper and
                    > better
                    > for dealing with FeCl spills - it's a powder so it'll soak up FeCl and
                    > neutralise it at the same time.
                    > IIRC, the trick is to add the carbonate until the solution is slightly
                    > alkaline, then pour the resulting mess through a coffee filter to catch
                    > the
                    > sludge. Pour the liquid away (it's just water and sodium salts IIRC), and
                    > dispose of the filter 'in accordance with local laws' so to speak - that
                    > ends
                    > up being covered in fairly pure iron and copper. If you wanted, you could
                    > (theoretically) split that apart and make up a solid copper/iron lump
                    > over
                    > time, then sell it to a scrap dealer once you've got enough (note how
                    > high
                    > copper prices are these days).


                    Ok, what about lime (from the builders yard)?

                    ST
                  • lcdpublishing
                    Are you guys serious about not being able to buy Acetone and other such solvents? If so, what the heck is the goverment trying to prevent? Really seems as
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                      Are you guys serious about not being able to buy Acetone and other
                      such solvents?

                      If so, what the heck is the goverment trying to prevent?

                      Really seems as though goverments around the world are doing much of
                      the same stupid things -

                      Creating "Feel good" laws which solve nothing

                      Making it illegal to buy "Stuff" to do illegal things. Isn't what
                      the new law doing is to prevent something from illegal happening?

                      For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to
                      strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
                      the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by
                      breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product. If these
                      people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
                      simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!

                      GRRRRRRRRRRR.

                      Sorry for the rant.

                      Chris
                    • Stefan Trethan
                      On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:26:16 +0200, lcdpublishing ... The thought is the stuff should be harder to get. Nobody cares about breaking the law, but if you can t
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                        On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:26:16 +0200, lcdpublishing
                        <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to
                        > strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
                        > the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by
                        > breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product. If these
                        > people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
                        > simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!


                        The thought is the stuff should be harder to get. Nobody cares about
                        breaking the law, but if you can't just go to the next store and buy
                        whatever you need for your bomb it is that tiny little bit harder to make
                        it.
                        Of course i agree it is a totally ineffective measure because someone
                        prepared to blow himself up will find a (only slightly more complicated)
                        way to get what he needs. So breaking the law is not meant to be the
                        barrier, lack of availability is.

                        Gouvernments need to be seen doing something, looking at how things only
                        get worse and worse. That's just one more stupid experiment that luckily
                        is only annoying, not outright dangerous like some of the things they are
                        doing.

                        ST
                      • Philip Pemberton
                        ... Yep. Officially you re not supposed to sell Isopropyl Alcohol in the UK as it s used for drug production (not sure which drug, and I don t really care
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                          lcdpublishing wrote:
                          > Are you guys serious about not being able to buy Acetone and other
                          > such solvents?

                          Yep.
                          Officially you're not 'supposed' to sell Isopropyl Alcohol in the UK as it's
                          used for drug production (not sure which drug, and I don't really care
                          either). Thankfully Maplin and Farnell are still stocking it. Once again, the
                          'keep it off the high street' law has no real effect and if they banned the
                          stuff outright they'd annoy pretty much every industrial manufacturer and
                          printing shop in the country.

                          > If so, what the heck is the goverment trying to prevent?

                          With IPA? Drugs manufacture. Acetone? People making TATP bombs.

                          > Creating "Feel good" laws which solve nothing

                          Go read 'Beyond Fear' by Bruce Schneier. It's a great book that covers why
                          these laws are created, and why they don't work.

                          > Making it illegal to buy "Stuff" to do illegal things. Isn't what
                          > the new law doing is to prevent something from illegal happening?

                          All the Terrorism Act does is allow the police to do an unwarranted
                          stop-and-search *and* add it to your criminal record, even if they find nothing.

                          > For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to
                          > strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
                          > the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by
                          > breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product. If these
                          > people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
                          > simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!

                          Too true...

                          --
                          Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
                          ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
                          http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
                        • lcdpublishing
                          Your right about it not stopping them. Those idiots that decided to fly some planes into the buildings 5 years ago sure didn t stop and think, gee, I don t
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                            Your right about it not stopping them. Those idiots that decided to
                            fly some planes into the buildings 5 years ago sure didn't stop and
                            think, gee, I don't know how to fly a plane so the plan won't work.
                            Rather, they spent years planning and training how to do it, then
                            executed the plan. Stopping the sale of "Pilot Training" to law
                            abiding people wouldn't have stopped them from their goals.

                            GRRRRRRRRRRRr, it's frustrating!


                            --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
                            <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:26:16 +0200, lcdpublishing
                            > <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is
                            willing to
                            > > strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
                            > > the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered
                            by
                            > > breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product. If
                            these
                            > > people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
                            > > simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!
                            >
                            >
                            > The thought is the stuff should be harder to get. Nobody cares
                            about
                            > breaking the law, but if you can't just go to the next store and
                            buy
                            > whatever you need for your bomb it is that tiny little bit harder
                            to make
                            > it.
                            > Of course i agree it is a totally ineffective measure because
                            someone
                            > prepared to blow himself up will find a (only slightly more
                            complicated)
                            > way to get what he needs. So breaking the law is not meant to be
                            the
                            > barrier, lack of availability is.
                            >
                            > Gouvernments need to be seen doing something, looking at how
                            things only
                            > get worse and worse. That's just one more stupid experiment that
                            luckily
                            > is only annoying, not outright dangerous like some of the things
                            they are
                            > doing.
                            >
                            > ST
                            >
                          • Stefan Trethan
                            On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:41:05 +0200, lcdpublishing ... No it wouldn t, but they would have had to find another way to learn to fly planes. Their strange
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 12, 2006
                              On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:41:05 +0200, lcdpublishing
                              <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

                              > Stopping the sale of "Pilot Training" to law
                              > abiding people wouldn't have stopped them from their goals.

                              No it wouldn't, but they would have had to find another way to learn to
                              fly planes.
                              Their strange behaviour while getting that training almost got them caught
                              (sadly only _almost_). A tiny thing here (say a checkup by authorities or
                              a psychological test or simply more attention by the three letter club in
                              charge) might very well have had a chance to prevent it all.

                              We will have to give up some conveniences in all this mess, everyone
                              understands that, but the key is to introduce reasonable measures that
                              will have some decent effect/inconvenience ratio.
                              For example, it would IMO be acceptable if they asked what you were going
                              to do, and required some ID before selling certain chemicals. I have no
                              problem with that. I don't think it would be very useful, but if they
                              think it helps it is the least i can do.

                              What i _don't_ consider reasonable is stopping the sale of perfectly
                              useful things by making impractical procedures to either buy or sell.
                              That's just stupid, because then we could just stop doing anything at all
                              so we don't get hurt.


                              > GRRRRRRRRRRRr, it's frustrating!

                              Indeed it is. But there's nothing we can do about this, _especially_ in
                              this forum.
                              Since i doubt we can gain world domination to try out our ideas before
                              Steve notices i suggest we stop this now. ;-)

                              ST
                            • Steve
                              ... World domination? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mad_Scientist Steve Greenfield
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 13, 2006
                                --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
                                <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

                                > Since i doubt we can gain world domination to try out our ideas before
                                > Steve notices i suggest we stop this now. ;-)

                                World domination? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mad_Scientist

                                Steve Greenfield
                              • lists
                                In article , ... Funny, I picked up some Washing Soda in one of our supermarkets the other day - can t remember which but
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 19, 2006
                                  In article <452D1610.1090704@...>,
                                  Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
                                  > Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise FeCl etchant) is a pig to
                                  > get around here.

                                  Funny, I picked up some "Washing Soda" in one of our supermarkets the
                                  other day - can't remember which but Tesco or ASDA.

                                  Stuart
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