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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] HCl and H2O2 versus CuCl

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  • Stefan Trethan
    I see... Thanks for the explaination. I already had the idea that basically the same might happen after writing the post. But i don t fully understand why all
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 13, 2003
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      I see...

      Thanks for the explaination.
      I already had the idea that basically the same might happen after writing the post.

      But i don't fully understand why all of these 3 parameters must be adjusted.
      I only adjust one, the color. If to brown it doesn't work and H2O2 (obviously regeneration) is added.

      The density: I don't monitor at all. But my H2O2 and HCl guide did say if there is any brown mud
      settling on the bottom simply filter it through filter paper to get it out.
      from the page you mentioned: "Etch rate will slow down and sludge may form with increasing density" -
      has this experienced one of you? is this really happening?
      Is the homebrew Hydrometer enough for normal work? but how to start if not bying the cucl but rather
      starting with etching solid copper (or using my now in use fluid)? How exact has this to be?
      Isn't there another method of getting the copper out (electrolytic deposition?)?

      Acid concentration:
      I also don't monitor it, but it is too high, get fumes i think.
      I don't like the titration, i don't like buying a buret and a stirrer and indicator etc.
      But i believe this is quite important if bubbling...


      Also if only 3% HCl:

      Don't you get a lot of fumes from bubbling attacking any nearby oxidizeable material?


      I principially like this idea of regeneration (not bying any H2O2) but my knoweledge about chemistry is
      very poor.

      thanks

      stefan


      13.04.2003 01:42:53, adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

      >Well, the CuCl2 etching is basically what is happening in
      >your solutions, the difference between the etching technique
      >discussed recently on this group and the H2O2 +HCl method as
      >you describe is the regeneration of the solution. H2O2 is
      >chemical regeneration and is instant, while atmospheric
      >oxygen regeneration is slow (can take from 1/2 hour to many
      >hours). In both cases CuCl2 is doing the etching and CuCl is
      >the byproduct, which oxidizing back to CuCl2 in regeneration.
      >
      >2CuCl + O + 2HCl -> 2CuCl2 + H2O
      >
      >(note that HCl is consumed during the reaction)
      >
      >Is too cumbersome to use CuCl2 etching in small trays. You
      >need a dedicated etching tank, similar to what is described
      >at http://users.rcn.com/rexa/Projects/CuCl_ech.html
      >
      >reasons for a tank;
      >
      >* less potential for spillage
      >* no setup time, always ready to go.
      >* Large solution volume relative to copper mass. This is
      >very important for effective etching using this technique.
      >(See previous posts.)
      >
      >No heating if you are satisfied at 35 um copper etch in < 20
      >minutes at 20°C. Etch 35 um copper in 30 minutes at 13°C.
      >
      >I'm still learning about this etchant and how to use it. I
      >haven't yet worked out the "minimum equipment" needed to
      >analyze and maintain the solution. It could be nothing more
      >than a eye dropper and some supermarket chemicals.
      >
      >One day I might create a web page on air regenerated CuCl2
      >etching for the hobbiest.
      >
      >Adam.
      >
      >
      >
      >stefan_trethan wrote:
      >> First Hi to all, as you may guess I'm new to this Group. If I don't regard any rules or common
      behavoir suggestions please point it out.
      >>
      >> To the question:
      >> I have read of the CuCl process here for the first time.
      >> I used Fe3Cl (awful) and now HCl and H2O2 for a while. I'm satisfied with H2O2 but it must be filled
      up every time etching.
      >>
      >> There was a discussion about H2O2 before, mentioning half the HCl volume of H2O2 would be needed but
      i don't agree. Only a few drops are needed each time to get the etchant to bright green from dark brown
      (as with CuCl. The etchant can be filled in a bottle after use (punched cap, H2O2 gases) and reused for
      ever. I etch in several small plastic containers (different pcb sizes), to use as little etchant as
      possible (to need less H2O2). only putting it in, etchant on top works fine (small bubbles from H2O2).
      It's ready in a time from 10 seconds up to a few minutes (H2O2 concentration decides).
      >>
      >> I figured this out exactly because I don't know if anyone has used it before and i want ask you for
      comparing it to the CuCl method.
      >>
      >>
      >> Please specify the differences of CuCl, especially the advantages.
      >> This would be a great help to decide if a change would be a good thing.
      >>
      >>
      >> What i figured out 'till now:
      >>
      >> Disadvantages:
      >>
      >> needs Bubbler
      >> needs long term regeneration
      >> needs complicated analysis for concentration determination
      >> needs big tank where a relatively big amount is stored
      >> (needs heating to work fast)
      >>
      >> Advantage:
      >> Needs NO ingredients to be replaced / refilled????? (I know this is wrong but what has to be
      refilled, HCl???)
      >>
      >>
      >> Thank you for any explanation.
      >>
      >> Also i'm much interested which of the described analysis methods is actually needed (density, ph, ..)
      aer they ALL needed or only ONE?, I'm not a chemist, but i believe i can learn everything.
      >>
      >> It would be very nice if one can give a quick review, I'm a bit buffled by the much different posts.
      >>
      >> Point for point short quick guide would be nice with simplest way to do it.
      >>
      >>
      >> kind regards
      >>
      >> Stefan Trethan
      >>
      >> Austria
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
      >>
      >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
      >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
      >
      >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • adam Seychell
      ... Color is a good way of checking if too much cuprous ions are presents. Cuprous is not very soluble and will form film on copper being etched and slow down
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 13, 2003
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        Stefan Trethan wrote:
        > I see...
        >
        > Thanks for the explaination.
        > I already had the idea that basically the same might happen after writing the post.
        >
        > But i don't fully understand why all of these 3 parameters must be adjusted.
        > I only adjust one, the color. If to brown it doesn't work and H2O2 (obviously regeneration) is added.
        >
        Color is a good way of checking if too much cuprous ions are
        presents. Cuprous is not very soluble and will form film
        on copper being etched and slow down the reaction.

        a hydrometer is very easy and quick way of knowing when too
        much copper has been dissolved and water must be added. I
        think a copper content of 150 to 200g/l is ok.

        > The density: I don't monitor at all. But my H2O2 and HCl guide did say if there is any brown mud
        > settling on the bottom simply filter it through filter paper to get it out.
        > from the page you mentioned: "Etch rate will slow down and sludge may form with increasing density" -
        > has this experienced one of you? is this really happening?
        > Is the homebrew Hydrometer enough for normal work? but how to start if not bying the cucl but rather
        > starting with etching solid copper (or using my now in use fluid)? How exact has this to be?
        > Isn't there another method of getting the copper out (electrolytic deposition?)?
        >
        > Acid concentration:
        > I also don't monitor it, but it is too high, get fumes i think.
        > I don't like the titration, i don't like buying a buret and a stirrer and indicator etc.
        > But i believe this is quite important if bubbling...
        >

        From what I've been told, the free acid of commercial
        cupric chloride etchers can range from zero to 15% (wt). The
        acid doesn't have a large effect on etch rate, but for
        bubble etchers it should not be zero. Say 0.5% to 2%


        >
        > Also if only 3% HCl:
        >
        > Don't you get a lot of fumes from bubbling attacking any nearby oxidizeable material?
        >
        no, at 2% acid there isn't any problems.

        Adam
      • rolanyang
        Do you have a digital camera? Can you take a photo of your solution? When you have something that looks like http://www.techfreakz.org/cucl2/?slide=5 the
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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          Do you have a digital camera? Can you take a photo
          of your solution? When you have something that looks
          like http://www.techfreakz.org/cucl2/?slide=5
          the solution is probably right.

          If you're getting brown or sludge, then first bubble
          air through it or add H2O2. If that doesnt help, then
          start adding HCl until it turns blue-greenish.

          Adding too much HCl won't slow down the reaction
          but not having enough CuCl2 will.

          Here's another idea:
          does anyone know if copper powder is cheap?
          The reaction would likely go a lot faster
          since the suface area of powder is drastically
          greater than when using plain old scrap wire
          or boards.

          ~rolan

          --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
          <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
          > I see...
          >
          > Thanks for the explaination.
          > I already had the idea that basically the same might happen after
          writing the post.
          >
          > But i don't fully understand why all of these 3 parameters must be
          adjusted.
          > I only adjust one, the color. If to brown it doesn't work and H2O2
          (obviously regeneration) is added.
          >
          > The density: I don't monitor at all. But my H2O2 and HCl guide did
          say if there is any brown mud
          > settling on the bottom simply filter it through filter paper to get
          it out.
          > from the page you mentioned: "Etch rate will slow down and sludge
          may form with increasing density" -
          > has this experienced one of you? is this really happening?
          > Is the homebrew Hydrometer enough for normal work? but how to start
          if not bying the cucl but rather
          > starting with etching solid copper (or using my now in use fluid)?
          How exact has this to be?
          > Isn't there another method of getting the copper out (electrolytic
          deposition?)?
          >
          > Acid concentration:
          > I also don't monitor it, but it is too high, get fumes i think.
          > I don't like the titration, i don't like buying a buret and a
          stirrer and indicator etc.
          > But i believe this is quite important if bubbling...
          >
          >
          > Also if only 3% HCl:
          >
          > Don't you get a lot of fumes from bubbling attacking any nearby
          oxidizeable material?
          >
          >
          > I principially like this idea of regeneration (not bying any H2O2)
          but my knoweledge about chemistry is
          > very poor.
          >
        • Adam Seychell
          ... You can get copper powder from some art supplies, but its VERY expensive for what we are doing. I think they use it as pigments in paint, or coating
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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            rolanyang wrote:
            > Do you have a digital camera? Can you take a photo
            > of your solution? When you have something that looks
            > like http://www.techfreakz.org/cucl2/?slide=5
            > the solution is probably right.
            >
            > If you're getting brown or sludge, then first bubble
            > air through it or add H2O2. If that doesnt help, then
            > start adding HCl until it turns blue-greenish.
            >
            > Adding too much HCl won't slow down the reaction
            > but not having enough CuCl2 will.
            >
            > Here's another idea:
            > does anyone know if copper powder is cheap?
            > The reaction would likely go a lot faster
            > since the suface area of powder is drastically
            > greater than when using plain old scrap wire
            > or boards.
            >


            You can get copper powder from some art supplies, but its VERY
            expensive for what we are doing. I think they use it as pigments
            in paint, or coating surfaces. Its almost fine as flour and thus
            dangerous to breath in.

            You can react either, copper carbonate, copper(II) oxide (black
            pigment powder) or copper(II) hydroxide (bright blue powder for
            fungicides) with HCl and instantly get copper(II) chloride
            solution. The problem is none of these are easily/cheaply
            available as scrap copper in the quantities we need (1 kg of
            copper). Maybe they are, but I don't know of any.
            You can get few hundred grams at very high $/kg or buy 25 kg bag
            from an industrial supplier at low $/kg but you'll have *way* to
            much. Unfortunately there is no in-between.

            I'm going to have a better play around with getting copper metal
            to react with HCl and do it fast as possible.
          • Russell Shaw
            ... I bet it s been tried, but does this work: CuSO4 + 2HCl - CuCl2 + H2SO4 CuSO4 is in garden shops.
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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              Adam Seychell wrote:
              >
              > rolanyang wrote:
              >
              >>Do you have a digital camera? Can you take a photo
              >>of your solution? When you have something that looks
              >>like http://www.techfreakz.org/cucl2/?slide=5
              >>the solution is probably right.
              >>
              >>If you're getting brown or sludge, then first bubble
              >>air through it or add H2O2. If that doesnt help, then
              >>start adding HCl until it turns blue-greenish.
              >>
              >>Adding too much HCl won't slow down the reaction
              >>but not having enough CuCl2 will.
              >>
              >>Here's another idea:
              >>does anyone know if copper powder is cheap?
              >>The reaction would likely go a lot faster
              >>since the suface area of powder is drastically
              >>greater than when using plain old scrap wire
              >>or boards.
              >>
              >
              > You can get copper powder from some art supplies, but its VERY
              > expensive for what we are doing. I think they use it as pigments
              > in paint, or coating surfaces. Its almost fine as flour and thus
              > dangerous to breath in.
              >
              > You can react either, copper carbonate, copper(II) oxide (black
              > pigment powder) or copper(II) hydroxide (bright blue powder for
              > fungicides) with HCl and instantly get copper(II) chloride
              > solution. The problem is none of these are easily/cheaply
              > available as scrap copper in the quantities we need (1 kg of
              > copper). Maybe they are, but I don't know of any.
              > You can get few hundred grams at very high $/kg or buy 25 kg bag
              > from an industrial supplier at low $/kg but you'll have *way* to
              > much. Unfortunately there is no in-between.
              >
              > I'm going to have a better play around with getting copper metal
              > to react with HCl and do it fast as possible.

              I bet it's been tried, but does this work: CuSO4 + 2HCl -> CuCl2 + H2SO4
              CuSO4 is in garden shops.
            • Steve Greenfield
              ... -snip- ... See, now, you should check the links pages more often. Here are a couple of links I d posted there: Flip Stick- Cupric Chloride Meant for
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                --- Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:
                > rolanyang wrote:
                -snip-
                > > Here's another idea:
                > > does anyone know if copper powder is cheap?
                > > The reaction would likely go a lot faster
                > > since the suface area of powder is drastically
                > > greater than when using plain old scrap wire
                > > or boards.
                > >
                >
                >
                > You can get copper powder from some art supplies, but its VERY
                > expensive for what we are doing. I think they use it as pigments
                > in paint, or coating surfaces. Its almost fine as flour and thus
                > dangerous to breath in.
                >
                > You can react either, copper carbonate, copper(II) oxide (black
                > pigment powder) or copper(II) hydroxide (bright blue powder for
                > fungicides) with HCl and instantly get copper(II) chloride
                > solution. The problem is none of these are easily/cheaply
                > available as scrap copper in the quantities we need (1 kg of
                > copper). Maybe they are, but I don't know of any.
                > You can get few hundred grams at very high $/kg or buy 25 kg bag
                > from an industrial supplier at low $/kg but you'll have *way* to
                > much. Unfortunately there is no in-between.

                See, now, you should check the links pages more often. Here are a
                couple of links I'd posted there:

                Flip Stick- Cupric Chloride
                Meant for cleaning flues, this is a way to get Cupric Chloride for
                etching from your hardware store.
                http://www.herchem.com/Products/FSTICK.html

                King County IMEX
                Industrial Materials Exchanges. In King County, ie, Seattle, WA
                area. Companies getting rid of surplus or waste chemicals and other
                hazardous materials. Cheap or free.
                http://www.metrokc.gov/hazwaste/imex/

                More info on copper oxides:
                http://www.reade.com/Products/Oxides/copper_oxide.html

                Excerpt, should give some clue as to where to look for this:
                * Typical Applications:
                Cu2O is used in red ceramic porcelain glazes and red glasses. Also
                a pigment for anti-fouling paints. CuO is used as a flux for CA
                metallurgy, as an optical glass polishing agent, as a pigment, in
                sweeting petroleum gases and in galvanic electrodes.

                Copper powder pigment from an art store:
                http://www.gamblincolors.com/materials/metals.html

                Daniel Smith has metal powders for pigments:
                http://www.danielsmith.com/dry-pigments.html

                No idea of the actual alloy used or if it is "pure" copper.

                This company sells copper powder for cold casting, electroplating,
                and metal forming so the alloy would be a known quantity:
                http://www.makin-metals.com/powders.html




                =====
                Steve Greenfield // Digital photography, scanning,
                Polymorph Digital Photography // retouching, and photomorphing
                253/318-2473 voice // to your specs.
                polymorph@... //
                http://www.polyphoto.com/ // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

                __________________________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
                http://search.yahoo.com
              • Jan Kok
                Just some brainstorming from someone who is not very knowlegeable about chemistry: Would electrolysis speed up the dissolving of the copper and getting the
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                  Just some brainstorming from someone who is not very knowlegeable about chemistry:

                  Would electrolysis speed up the dissolving of the copper and getting the reaction you want? Just pass 6.3VAC (more or less, to suit your taste) between two copper electrodes. You get gaseous oxygen (which you apparently want) during part of the electrical cycle, and hydrogen in the other half (so watch out for explosive gas mixture!).

                  Cheers,
                  - Jan



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stefan Trethan
                  hi jan! i also wonder about this very much... someone who has this webpage with the slides shows copper on the metal clip attachment disposed (sorry for
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                    hi jan!

                    i also wonder about this very much...

                    someone who has this webpage with the "slides" shows copper on the metal clip attachment disposed (sorry
                    for forgetting the name and being to lazy to find it out).
                    I'm very interested in disposing some of the copper as solid material (maybe on carbon electrodes?) to
                    stop the bath keeping growing and growing... (and needing new ingredients).

                    but i didn't think about using the O generated.. interesting idea..
                    (*ggg* storing the hydrogen which is byproduct and using it to solve world's energy problems by us few
                    homebrewers... only joking..)

                    if anyone knows about electrolysis interaction (or wants to try and has chem. gear to interpret the
                    results) pleas tell us......

                    just a question: why the hell do you mention 6.3V exactly? seems to high for chem. voltage differential?
                    which reason?


                    regards
                    stefan


                    some different thought:
                    for a guy from mars, no chemical knoweledge, only common sense, woldn't it sound strange to etch kilos
                    of plain copper away to get CuCl2 if he initialy only wants to etch copper? (sounds pretty much like
                    digging a bigger hole to dump the earth of a hole you want to dig).
                    only a thought.. if anyone has a comment on that it would be welcome..



                    16.04.2003 17:34:03, "Jan Kok" <kok@...> wrote:

                    >Just some brainstorming from someone who is not very knowlegeable about chemistry:
                    >
                    >Would electrolysis speed up the dissolving of the copper and getting the reaction you want? Just pass
                    6.3VAC (more or less, to suit your taste) between two copper electrodes. You get gaseous oxygen (which
                    you apparently want) during part of the electrical cycle, and hydrogen in the other half (so watch out
                    for explosive gas mixture!).
                    >
                    >Cheers,
                    >- Jan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                    >
                    >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jan Kok
                    From: Stefan Trethan ... 6.3VAC is a common transformer output voltage (e.g. see Radio Shack). Back in the days of carburetors, vinyl records, mechanical
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                      From: Stefan Trethan

                      > just a question: why the hell do you mention 6.3V exactly? seems
                      > too high for chem. voltage differential? which reason?

                      6.3VAC is a common transformer output voltage (e.g. see Radio Shack). Back in the days of carburetors, vinyl records, mechanical adding machines, and Elvis, vacuum tubes used 6.3V (or some multiple) on their filaments.

                      And why was that? I don't know for sure, but maybe that was the nominal voltage of 4 carbon-zinc cells in series.

                      The voltage times current = power which may do some chemical work, and the rest turns into heat. When doing electrolysis, bubbles tend to form on the electrodes and raise the resistance between the electrodes. Increasing the voltage would raise the temperature in that region and cause the bubbles to rise, increase the circulation of fluids, and increase the chemical reaction rates. (But whether it increases the rate of the reactions you _want_ is something I don't know. :-)

                      > some different thought:
                      > for a guy from mars, no chemical knoweledge, only common sense,
                      > woldn't it sound strange to etch kilos
                      > of plain copper away to get CuCl2 if he initialy only wants to
                      > etch copper? (sounds pretty much like
                      > digging a bigger hole to dump the earth of a hole you want to
                      > dig).

                      Heh. Again, it's the blind leading the blind here. But it sounds like the CuCl2 wants to take on another Cu (so it is an etchant), and CuCl2 doesn't release HCl gas into the air where it would corrode every metal object in your workshop, not to mention your eyes and lungs.

                      Cheers,
                      - Jan



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ned Konz
                      ... 3 x 2.1V per cell nominal voltage on lead-acid battery. -- Ned Konz http://bike-nomad.com GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                        On Wednesday 16 April 2003 02:38 pm, Jan Kok wrote:
                        > From: Stefan Trethan
                        >
                        > > just a question: why the hell do you mention 6.3V exactly? seems
                        > > too high for chem. voltage differential? which reason?
                        >
                        > 6.3VAC is a common transformer output voltage (e.g. see Radio
                        > Shack). Back in the days of carburetors, vinyl records, mechanical
                        > adding machines, and Elvis, vacuum tubes used 6.3V (or some
                        > multiple) on their filaments.
                        >
                        > And why was that? I don't know for sure, but maybe that was the
                        > nominal voltage of 4 carbon-zinc cells in series.

                        3 x 2.1V per cell nominal voltage on lead-acid battery.

                        --
                        Ned Konz
                        http://bike-nomad.com
                        GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
                      • Adam Seychell
                        Electrolysis would certainly get copper in solution. The solution may need agitation to minimize chlorine gas evolving at the copper anode. When the copper
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 16, 2003
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                          Electrolysis would certainly get copper in solution. The solution
                          may need agitation to minimize chlorine gas evolving at the
                          copper anode. When the copper gets high it will want to plate on
                          the cathode, along with hydrogen. This usually produces a growth
                          of copper sponge. You can stop copper ions reaching the cathode
                          by a porous wall, such as a earthenware garden pot suspended in
                          the middle of the bath and the cathode inside this pot. Hydrogen
                          ions have much greater ionic mobility than copper(II) ions and
                          will readily pass through the electrolyte absorbed ceramic wall.
                          I've prepared sulfuric acid / stannous sulfate a similar way for
                          a tin plating tank.

                          Assuming 100% electrode efficiency, then to dissolve 1 kg of
                          copper metal requires 840 amp-hours, (e.g. 10 amps for 3.5 days).

                          Electrolysis is not fast, and not easy as to setup.


                          Jan Kok wrote:
                          > Just some brainstorming from someone who is not very knowlegeable about chemistry:
                          >
                          > Would electrolysis speed up the dissolving of the copper and getting the reaction you want? Just pass 6.3VAC (more or less, to suit your taste) between two copper electrodes. You get gaseous oxygen (which you apparently want) during part of the electrical cycle, and hydrogen in the other half (so watch out for explosive gas mixture!).
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > - Jan
                          >
                          >
                        • Stefan Trethan
                          hi adam! i initially thought of getting copper OUT not IN to aid in regenerating the echant without adding hcl (and stopping it growing). have you also some
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
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                            hi adam!

                            i initially thought of getting copper OUT not IN to aid in regenerating the echant without adding hcl
                            (and stopping it growing).
                            have you also some ideas on that?

                            what would happen if someone starts electrolysis? would the copper(II) plate itself down on the
                            electrode?
                            I only annoy so much with this topic because i have read of electrolysis used in either ferric cloride
                            or the other common etching solution, i can't remember. There was sayd that the copper is displaced on
                            the electrode and can be simply pulled of or if using a foil disposed. i also remember it was mentioned
                            to put in some (very little) sulphuric acid to assist not only in etching but also in electrolytical
                            disposal of the copper.


                            I would very like the idea of getting the copper off the pcb and then disposing it as hard copper
                            somewhere.

                            regards
                            st


                            17.04.2003 04:21:32, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

                            >Electrolysis would certainly get copper in solution. The solution
                            >may need agitation to minimize chlorine gas evolving at the
                            >copper anode. When the copper gets high it will want to plate on
                            >the cathode, along with hydrogen. This usually produces a growth
                            >of copper sponge. You can stop copper ions reaching the cathode
                            >by a porous wall, such as a earthenware garden pot suspended in
                            >the middle of the bath and the cathode inside this pot. Hydrogen
                            >ions have much greater ionic mobility than copper(II) ions and
                            >will readily pass through the electrolyte absorbed ceramic wall.
                            >I've prepared sulfuric acid / stannous sulfate a similar way for
                            >a tin plating tank.
                            >
                            >Assuming 100% electrode efficiency, then to dissolve 1 kg of
                            >copper metal requires 840 amp-hours, (e.g. 10 amps for 3.5 days).
                            >
                            >Electrolysis is not fast, and not easy as to setup.
                            >
                            >
                            >Jan Kok wrote:
                            >> Just some brainstorming from someone who is not very knowlegeable about chemistry:
                            >>
                            >> Would electrolysis speed up the dissolving of the copper and getting the reaction you want? Just
                            pass 6.3VAC (more or less, to suit your taste) between two copper electrodes. You get gaseous oxygen
                            (which you apparently want) during part of the electrical cycle, and hydrogen in the other half (so
                            watch out for explosive gas mixture!).
                            >>
                            >> Cheers,
                            >> - Jan
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                            >
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                          • Stefan Trethan
                            hi i m trying to plot directly to pcb for a time now and face a lot of problems. but yesterday i read again of the method with laser printing to paper /
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
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                              hi

                              i'm trying to plot directly to pcb for a time now and face a lot of problems. but yesterday i read again
                              of the method with laser printing to paper / transparency and ironing it to the board.
                              I have tried this some time ago when i read first of it and it gave very poor result.

                              today i tried again with normal paper, the result was a bit better but anyways poor.

                              I believe the toner layer which my laser printer (HP JL III D) is to thin.
                              it also leaves pinholes on plain paper.
                              The printer is quite old and the toner is a cheap remanufactured one.


                              Has anyone here done this with a laser jet III or II?
                              Would it help to buy the original toner?



                              Which paper is best?
                              I read everything from "kitchen baking paper" over normal 80gramm copier paper to the special glossy paper
                              and ohp transparencies..
                              If anyone has tried several papers please answer..

                              Would the normal Xerox photocopiers work fine? (i believe digital ones are they)


                              I would appreciate any hints..


                              mfg
                              st
                            • kenneth magers
                              i have made great board like this using the jet printphoto multiproject-photopaper 60 sheets is 14 bucks at wally world just set the print as dark as posible
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                i have made great board like this using the jet
                                printphoto multiproject-photopaper 60 sheets is 14
                                bucks at wally world just set the print as dark as
                                posible and clean the board well let the board soake
                                in hot hot water till it peels off dont pull it will
                                come loose on it's own pin holes can also come from
                                uneven ironing and contamenents on the board
                                good luck
                                --- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
                                > hi
                                >
                                > i'm trying to plot directly to pcb for a time now
                                > and face a lot of problems. but yesterday i read
                                > again
                                > of the method with laser printing to paper /
                                > transparency and ironing it to the board.
                                > I have tried this some time ago when i read first of
                                > it and it gave very poor result.
                                >
                                > today i tried again with normal paper, the result
                                > was a bit better but anyways poor.
                                >
                                > I believe the toner layer which my laser printer (HP
                                > JL III D) is to thin.
                                > it also leaves pinholes on plain paper.
                                > The printer is quite old and the toner is a cheap
                                > remanufactured one.
                                >
                                >
                                > Has anyone here done this with a laser jet III or
                                > II?
                                > Would it help to buy the original toner?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Which paper is best?
                                > I read everything from "kitchen baking paper" over
                                > normal 80gramm copier paper to the special glossy
                                > paper
                                > and ohp transparencies..
                                > If anyone has tried several papers please answer..
                                >
                                > Would the normal Xerox photocopiers work fine? (i
                                > believe digital ones are they)
                                >
                                >
                                > I would appreciate any hints..
                                >
                                >
                                > mfg
                                > st
                                >
                                >
                                >


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                              • Stefan Trethan
                                hmm the problem is that i m quite far away from the next wally world (several 10000 km i guess), living in austria. but i will have a look if this particular
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  hmm the problem is that i'm quite far away from the next wally world (several 10000 km i guess), living
                                  in austria. but i will have a look if this particular paper is available here and if not i will buy some
                                  different papers.. but isn't photopaper for inkjet printers? or is this laser photopaper (i don't assume
                                  any laser capable of photo quality)?

                                  i have cleaned the board with alcohol, as it was quite new i guessed this would be enough. next time i
                                  may give it a rub with steel wool and see if it gets better.

                                  regards
                                  st


                                  17.04.2003 19:17:04, kenneth magers <kenneth_m_73149@...> wrote:

                                  >i have made great board like this using the jet
                                  >printphoto multiproject-photopaper 60 sheets is 14
                                  >bucks at wally world just set the print as dark as
                                  >posible and clean the board well let the board soake
                                  >in hot hot water till it peels off dont pull it will
                                  >come loose on it's own pin holes can also come from
                                  >uneven ironing and contamenents on the board
                                  >good luck
                                  >--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
                                  >> hi
                                  >>
                                  >> i'm trying to plot directly to pcb for a time now
                                  >> and face a lot of problems. but yesterday i read
                                  >> again
                                  >> of the method with laser printing to paper /
                                  >> transparency and ironing it to the board.
                                  >> I have tried this some time ago when i read first of
                                  >> it and it gave very poor result.
                                  >>
                                  >> today i tried again with normal paper, the result
                                  >> was a bit better but anyways poor.
                                  >>
                                  >> I believe the toner layer which my laser printer (HP
                                  >> JL III D) is to thin.
                                  >> it also leaves pinholes on plain paper.
                                  >> The printer is quite old and the toner is a cheap
                                  >> remanufactured one.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Has anyone here done this with a laser jet III or
                                  >> II?
                                  >> Would it help to buy the original toner?
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Which paper is best?
                                  >> I read everything from "kitchen baking paper" over
                                  >> normal 80gramm copier paper to the special glossy
                                  >> paper
                                  >> and ohp transparencies..
                                  >> If anyone has tried several papers please answer..
                                  >>
                                  >> Would the normal Xerox photocopiers work fine? (i
                                  >> believe digital ones are they)
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> I would appreciate any hints..
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> mfg
                                  >> st
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Ned Konz
                                  ... The paper is indeed for inkjet printers. You want to use a paper that will not stick very well to the toner, so the toner will instead stick to the board.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Thursday 17 April 2003 10:26 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                                    > hmm the problem is that i'm quite far away from the next wally
                                    > world (several 10000 km i guess), living in austria. but i will
                                    > have a look if this particular paper is available here and if not i
                                    > will buy some different papers.. but isn't photopaper for inkjet
                                    > printers? or is this laser photopaper (i don't assume any laser
                                    > capable of photo quality)?

                                    The paper is indeed for inkjet printers. You want to use a paper that
                                    will not stick very well to the toner, so the toner will instead
                                    stick to the board.

                                    The glossy surface on inkjet photo paper (as well as on magazine
                                    pages, backing paper from computer labels, etc.) is good for this.

                                    Be careful, though; some inkjet photo papers have a polymer coating
                                    that is very hard to remove.

                                    > i have cleaned the board with alcohol, as it was quite new i
                                    > guessed this would be enough. next time i may give it a rub with
                                    > steel wool and see if it gets better.

                                    NEVER use regular steel wool! Pieces of the steel will jam themselves
                                    into the copper and break off. Then they'll corrode. Either use
                                    stainless steel scrubbers or Scotchbrite abrasive polymer scrubbers.
                                    You can use abrasive scouring powder as well to help get the grease
                                    off.

                                    Don't handle with your hands; use gloves and avoid touching the copper
                                    surface after you clean it.

                                    --
                                    Ned Konz
                                    http://bike-nomad.com
                                    GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
                                  • rolanyang
                                    You definitely need to use some sort of abrasive for cleaning. Alcohol isn t likely going to remove the oxidized layer from the surface. I am lazy, so I use a
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      You definitely need to use some sort of abrasive for cleaning.
                                      Alcohol isn't likely going to remove the oxidized layer from
                                      the surface.

                                      I am lazy, so I use a Dremel roto-tool and the steel brush
                                      attachment to give the whole board a quick polish before
                                      doing my ironing.

                                      What brand of laser printer are you using?
                                      I have heard that newer laser printers use a lower-temp toner, whereas the old HP Laserjet II's (the one I have) require
                                      a very high temperature to melt the toner.
                                      The toner formula may have something to do with it's
                                      ability to stick to the copper. I have not experimented
                                      with this, so I don't know for sure.

                                      ~Rolan


                                      --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > i have cleaned the board with alcohol, as it was quite new i guessed this would be enough. next time i
                                      > may give it a rub with steel wool and see if it gets better.
                                      >
                                    • Stefan Trethan
                                      the laser jet IIID is very, very old.. but in my opinion it is the best printer ever built by hp. i have several dremel like tools, but i don t like its brush
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
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                                        the laser jet IIID is very, very old.. but in my opinion it is the best printer ever built by hp.
                                        i have several dremel like tools, but i don't like its brush assy. as this is from a cheap device the
                                        brushs tend do get loose and are then shooted at me at very high velocity. i don't like this. only used
                                        once.

                                        but i will no longer use steel wool (but i'm not really sure if there really pour particles in).

                                        i may try it with inkjet photo paper.. but if the paper doesn't stick enough then the toner gets off at
                                        fusing assy output or the following transport assy which also has some brush..
                                        so it has to stick enough. i encountered these problems when trying the kitchen baking paper.

                                        The temperature doesn't seem to be a problem. i set the iron to highest on last try and the toner fused
                                        well. i maybe didn't soke it enough. but the most problem is i think that my printer puts not enough
                                        toner on the paper (also leaving pinholes). i also had this problems with ohp film (and partly because
                                        of this want to abandon using phototransfer process).

                                        i see i really have to do some experimenting, also copying the artwork with different copiers i have
                                        easy acess (have two at home but not working....) maybe the toner layer of the copiers is thicker when
                                        set to darkest.


                                        but i have a bit a fear of a too thick toner layer which may widen the track due to pressure and heat
                                        during fusing - can this happen?


                                        okay, further experimenting maybe tomorrow.. thanks for hints..


                                        regards

                                        stefan

                                        17.04.2003 19:43:09, "rolanyang" <rolan@...> wrote:

                                        >You definitely need to use some sort of abrasive for cleaning.
                                        >Alcohol isn't likely going to remove the oxidized layer from
                                        >the surface.
                                        >
                                        >I am lazy, so I use a Dremel roto-tool and the steel brush
                                        >attachment to give the whole board a quick polish before
                                        >doing my ironing.
                                        >
                                        >What brand of laser printer are you using?
                                        >I have heard that newer laser printers use a lower-temp toner, whereas the old HP Laserjet II's (the
                                        one I have) require
                                        >a very high temperature to melt the toner.
                                        >The toner formula may have something to do with it's
                                        >ability to stick to the copper. I have not experimented
                                        >with this, so I don't know for sure.
                                        >
                                        >~Rolan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>
                                        >> i have cleaned the board with alcohol, as it was quite new i guessed this would be enough. next time
                                        i
                                        >> may give it a rub with steel wool and see if it gets better.
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
                                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                                        >
                                        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Jan Kok
                                        From: Stefan Trethan ... Laser printing on overhead projector film works very poorly. The dark parts aren t very dark, and if you try to make it darker, the
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          From: Stefan Trethan
                                          > The temperature doesn't seem to be a problem. i set the iron to
                                          > highest on last try and the toner fused well. i maybe didn't soke
                                          > it enough. but the most problem is i think that my printer puts not
                                          > enough toner on the paper (also leaving pinholes). i also had this
                                          > problems with ohp film (and partly because of this want to
                                          > abandon using phototransfer process).

                                          Laser printing on overhead projector film works very poorly. The dark parts
                                          aren't very dark, and if you try to make it darker, the transparent parts
                                          pick up some toner, and you get pits in your copper traces. Awful.

                                          I've had much better luck with laser printing on vellum (thin,
                                          semi-transparent paper, can be bought in artist supplies stores for a few
                                          cents per sheet). Put the vellum with the toner side down against a
                                          photosensitive board and expose to light. I got excellent results with 12
                                          mil lines and spaces. Got poor results with 8 mil lines and spaces (some
                                          traces came out too thin or broke), but I think some more experimenting
                                          might produce better results.

                                          I tried printing on ordinary laser printer paper, but it is just too
                                          opaque - I couldn't get the board to expose.

                                          One other thing to watch for: fluorescent lights change their intensity as
                                          they warm up and as they age. So, if you turn on the light and expose one
                                          side of the board, then flip it over and expose the other side for the same
                                          amount of time, the two sides may not be equally exposed. There is a
                                          cumulative exposure meter circuit in The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and
                                          Hill that might help with this.

                                          Cheers,
                                          - Jan
                                        • glenhat
                                          ... Dude, go with the photofab method. It s so good. I m a newbie to making pcb s. Tinkered with iron-on for a while and had nothing but trouble. I was very
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 17, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > of the method with laser printing to paper /
                                            > transparency and ironing it to the board.
                                            > I have tried this some time ago when i read
                                            > first of it and it gave very poor result.

                                            Dude, go with the photofab method. It's so good. I'm a newbie to
                                            making pcb's. Tinkered with iron-on for a while and had nothing but
                                            trouble.

                                            I was very leery about the photofab process. I read so many messages
                                            here that made it sound so difficult and complex. I finally broke
                                            down and bought the stuff to do photofab (not that expensive).

                                            Photofab is GREAT!!! It's not difficult at all and the boards come
                                            out perfect. My first board is a total success.

                                            If you want a simple starter kit, look at http://www.mgchemicals.com
                                            in their Products/Prototyping area. You need some transparencies
                                            that will work with your printer, a 416K Photofab Kit and a 416X
                                            Exposure Kit. Here in Canada, that all cost me around $120ish (maybe
                                            $85 US).

                                            If you want to get more serious, also get a 416ES or 416E Etching
                                            Kit. I just do mine in a plastic dish - not so fancy, but works fine.

                                            Oh ya, the 416K kit only comes with single-side board, so you'll
                                            most likely want to buy some double-side as well.

                                            MG has a distributor list on their site, so you can find a dealer
                                            near you that carries these products. Geesh, I sound like an ad for
                                            MG Chemicals, but I'm just a very satisfied customer. I'm sure other
                                            companies have similar kits too.
                                          • Stefan Trethan
                                            thanks for the nice advice but photofab is not so nice as it seems. i started with this process and it worked most time but the problem simply was to get the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 18, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              thanks for the nice advice but photofab is not so nice as it seems.

                                              i started with this process and it worked most time but the problem simply was to get the films.
                                              in my printer no ohp tansparency works at all..

                                              and be sure, i won't buy a starter kit, no thanks...
                                              i already have all parts needed to make the pcbs with this method but i simply don't want do make it any
                                              longer.


                                              additionally just in the moment all double sided photo coated pcb was used up i got from ebay a real
                                              hell lot of plain copper clad, nearly new, no corrosion etc but without coating for a few bucks.. this
                                              would be enough for lifetime useage at the current rate...
                                              and i also don't want to coat it with spray on photoresist.


                                              so you see i really want to replace the photo process and either toner iron on or plotting directly to
                                              pcb WILL work, i know that.

                                              regards
                                              st

                                              18.04.2003 07:55:11, "glenhat" <hathaway@...> wrote:

                                              >> of the method with laser printing to paper /
                                              >> transparency and ironing it to the board.
                                              >> I have tried this some time ago when i read
                                              >> first of it and it gave very poor result.
                                              >
                                              >Dude, go with the photofab method. It's so good. I'm a newbie to
                                              >making pcb's. Tinkered with iron-on for a while and had nothing but
                                              >trouble.
                                              >
                                              >I was very leery about the photofab process. I read so many messages
                                              >here that made it sound so difficult and complex. I finally broke
                                              >down and bought the stuff to do photofab (not that expensive).
                                              >
                                              >Photofab is GREAT!!! It's not difficult at all and the boards come
                                              >out perfect. My first board is a total success.
                                              >
                                              >If you want a simple starter kit, look at http://www.mgchemicals.com
                                              >in their Products/Prototyping area. You need some transparencies
                                              >that will work with your printer, a 416K Photofab Kit and a 416X
                                              >Exposure Kit. Here in Canada, that all cost me around $120ish (maybe
                                              >$85 US).
                                              >
                                              >If you want to get more serious, also get a 416ES or 416E Etching
                                              >Kit. I just do mine in a plastic dish - not so fancy, but works fine.
                                              >
                                              >Oh ya, the 416K kit only comes with single-side board, so you'll
                                              >most likely want to buy some double-side as well.
                                              >
                                              >MG has a distributor list on their site, so you can find a dealer
                                              >near you that carries these products. Geesh, I sound like an ad for
                                              >MG Chemicals, but I'm just a very satisfied customer. I'm sure other
                                              >companies have similar kits too.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
                                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                                              >
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                                              >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
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                                            • Stefan Trethan
                                              hmm i heard of this special paper before but it only found it at the electronics shops where it was more expensive than copper clad itself. i may try it but
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 18, 2003
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                                                hmm i heard of this special paper before but it only found it at the electronics shops where it was more
                                                expensive than copper clad itself.
                                                i may try it but really no longer want to use photo process.

                                                to plain copier paper i can say exposing works if you use "pausklar" which i guess is some thin oil
                                                spray (smells like lemons). this makes the paper enough transparent for exposure (prolong time).

                                                regards
                                                st

                                                18.04.2003 01:14:30, "Jan Kok" <kok@...> wrote:

                                                >From: Stefan Trethan
                                                >> The temperature doesn't seem to be a problem. i set the iron to
                                                >> highest on last try and the toner fused well. i maybe didn't soke
                                                >> it enough. but the most problem is i think that my printer puts not
                                                >> enough toner on the paper (also leaving pinholes). i also had this
                                                >> problems with ohp film (and partly because of this want to
                                                >> abandon using phototransfer process).
                                                >
                                                >Laser printing on overhead projector film works very poorly. The dark parts
                                                >aren't very dark, and if you try to make it darker, the transparent parts
                                                >pick up some toner, and you get pits in your copper traces. Awful.
                                                >
                                                >I've had much better luck with laser printing on vellum (thin,
                                                >semi-transparent paper, can be bought in artist supplies stores for a few
                                                >cents per sheet). Put the vellum with the toner side down against a
                                                >photosensitive board and expose to light. I got excellent results with 12
                                                >mil lines and spaces. Got poor results with 8 mil lines and spaces (some
                                                >traces came out too thin or broke), but I think some more experimenting
                                                >might produce better results.
                                                >
                                                >I tried printing on ordinary laser printer paper, but it is just too
                                                >opaque - I couldn't get the board to expose.
                                                >
                                                >One other thing to watch for: fluorescent lights change their intensity as
                                                >they warm up and as they age. So, if you turn on the light and expose one
                                                >side of the board, then flip it over and expose the other side for the same
                                                >amount of time, the two sides may not be equally exposed. There is a
                                                >cumulative exposure meter circuit in The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and
                                                >Hill that might help with this.
                                                >
                                                >Cheers,
                                                >- Jan
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
                                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                                                >
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                                              • glenhat
                                                ... Umm... Maybe it s time to consider getting a new printer? :-) My Lexmark Z51 inkjet does a beautiful job on 3M CG3480 transparencies. I got some laser
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 18, 2003
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  > but the problem simply was to get the films.
                                                  > in my printer no ohp tansparency works at all..

                                                  Umm... Maybe it's time to consider getting a new printer? :-)

                                                  My Lexmark Z51 inkjet does a beautiful job on 3M CG3480
                                                  transparencies.

                                                  I got some laser transparencies for the old Panasonic KX-P4450, but
                                                  haven't tried them yet.
                                                • Stefan Trethan
                                                  NO! thats all i can say about changing my printer (and buying a new one).
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Apr 18, 2003
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    NO!

                                                    thats all i can say about changing my printer (and buying a new one).

                                                    18.04.2003 09:14:45, "glenhat" <hathaway@...> wrote:

                                                    >> but the problem simply was to get the films.
                                                    >> in my printer no ohp tansparency works at all..
                                                    >
                                                    >Umm... Maybe it's time to consider getting a new printer? :-)
                                                    >
                                                    >My Lexmark Z51 inkjet does a beautiful job on 3M CG3480
                                                    >transparencies.
                                                    >
                                                    >I got some laser transparencies for the old Panasonic KX-P4450, but
                                                    >haven't tried them yet.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
                                                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
                                                    >
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                                                    >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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