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Hull Construction

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  • nauteal
    I am new to this forum. I have been sailing on a Sunfish style boat for years. It is actually a Scorpion. I have never seen one of the Holders or Hobie
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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      I am new to this forum. I have been sailing on a Sunfish style boat
      for years. It is actually a Scorpion. I have never seen one of the
      Holders or Hobie Funseekers. What is the actual construction of the
      hull? All I have been able to find is double sandwich foam. Is it
      sandwiched in fiberglass or something else?

      Thanks!
    • techmoose99
      The hull is fiberglass. It s not like a Snark that has ABS plastic over foam. I saw reference to foam sandwich contstruction in the flyers from Hobie, but I
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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        The hull is fiberglass. It's not like a Snark that has ABS plastic
        over foam.

        I saw reference to foam sandwich contstruction in the flyers from
        Hobie, but I wonder if it differs from other boat manufacturer's foam
        sandwich construction or if it only has it in certain parts of the
        boat.

        I have a fiberglass Sabot that has foam sandwich construction. I
        know there is foam between inner and outer shell, because I saw the
        foam when doing repairs. When I rap anywhere on the hull with my
        knuckles, it sounds like a "thud". When I do the same on the Hobie
        over most parts of the bottom of the hull, I get a more "hollow"
        sound...it sounds more like a fiberglass shell to me, but "sounds"
        can be deceiving.

        Maybe we'll hear more from those who have done some repairs on their
        Hobies and see what they encountered.

        Moose
      • Nauteal
        Hey Moose, Thanks for the quick response. I guess if I had looked through all the pictures on the web-site before I had posted my question I would have figured
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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          Hey Moose,

          Thanks for the quick response. I guess if I had looked through all the pictures on the web-site before I had posted my question I would have figured it out. Someone posted picture where they had photographed inside cutout access panels. The fiberglass was very apparent. I did not see hardly any foam though. Like you I am not sure why the brochure is written the way it is.

          I am considering a Hobie or Holder 12 now. Is there any advantage of one over the other? What are your likes vs. dislikes or advantages over the Sunfish design?

          Richard Huffman
          Nauteal


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: techmoose99
          To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 6:36 PM
          Subject: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction


          The hull is fiberglass. It's not like a Snark that has ABS plastic
          over foam.

          I saw reference to foam sandwich contstruction in the flyers from
          Hobie, but I wonder if it differs from other boat manufacturer's foam
          sandwich construction or if it only has it in certain parts of the
          boat.

          I have a fiberglass Sabot that has foam sandwich construction. I
          know there is foam between inner and outer shell, because I saw the
          foam when doing repairs. When I rap anywhere on the hull with my
          knuckles, it sounds like a "thud". When I do the same on the Hobie
          over most parts of the bottom of the hull, I get a more "hollow"
          sound...it sounds more like a fiberglass shell to me, but "sounds"
          can be deceiving.

          Maybe we'll hear more from those who have done some repairs on their
          Hobies and see what they encountered.

          Moose





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        • techmoose99
          Hi Richard, One of the differences between Holders and Hobies can be the rudder. My Hobie was built in 1997, and it came with what is called a beaching rudder
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
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            Hi Richard,

            One of the differences between Holders and Hobies can be the rudder.
            My Hobie was built in 1997, and it came with what is called a
            beaching rudder instead of a kick-up rudder that you can raise or
            lower by lifting the tiller up and down. I was just recently looking
            at an enlarged picture of a Hobie 12 on Ebay that they said was built
            in the early 90's and it looked to me like it had the beaching rudder
            like mine. With the beaching rudder, the rudder is basically held in
            position by tightening a knob at the rudder pivot point...you can
            read about it here on the forum under the "Need rudder help" thread.

            Also, my Hobie did not come with a boom vang. On one Hobie flyer, I
            saw the boom vang listed as standard equipment, yet on another Holder
            flyer, I saw the boom vang listed as optional. The owner of the
            Hobie on Ebay said he added the boom vang.

            According to the info in the files section of the forum, after 1985,
            the standard for the upper mast section was the fiberglass "Comptip"
            instead of aluminum. There used to be a retrofit program available
            for replacing the aluminum upper mast section, so it's possible for
            older boats to have the Comptip mast.

            I bought the Hobie because it looked to me like one of the more
            comfortable boats that two people could sail, in a boat of that size,
            type, and weight range. I haven't sailed it yet...so I don't know
            for sure! I'm only familiar with the Sunfish because I have a
            Minifish which I recently bought...I haven't sailed it either. A
            Sunfish can be set up for sailing very quickly, the Hobie will take a
            little longer. It's nice that the sail can be dropped quickly on the
            Sunfish, but one of the members on the forum here (Gail), modified
            his sail with sail rings, so he can raise or lower his sail quickly,
            and even reef it. Another member on the forum here (Shorty) uses a
            Sunfish rig on his Holder, you can see his boat in the photo
            section. The Hobie is wider than a Sunfish, so maybe it's more
            stable. I'm thinking you would stay drier on the Hobie too. Should
            be able to bring along more "stuff" on or inside the Hobie.

            Moose
          • Nauteal
            Moose, Now that you mention it, the one on ebay was the one that drew my attention to these boats. I spent a little to long in analysis mode. As they would
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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              Moose,

              Now that you mention it, the one on ebay was the one that drew my attention to these boats. I spent a little to long in analysis mode. As they would say, I "Missed The Boat." Somebody else made there mind up quicker.

              I have had various sailboats over the years. The Scorpion, the boat I have now is one that my dad gave me a few years back. It has a beautiful deck design, but it is the worst condition boat I have ever owned. The deck looks like a design from a 1940's Chris Craft. It has the look of grooved 2 inch planks running fore to aft. It has a 5" border that follows the edge of the boat. This is all molded as one piece. The planks are done in a contrasting color from the border. Mine is baby blue in the middle with a white border and white hull.

              The underside got raked across something and ripped a 2"X4" hole at one time. As well as some other damage. At some point someone stored the boat in the winter with water in it because the deck is pushed up in one area.

              I repaired the bottom structurally a couple of years ago. As for the deck I have no idea what could be done for its deformity.

              As for sailing, it is a blast. I have had it in the Atlantic several times. It is easy to launch from the beach. Much easier than a catamaran I once had.

              The things I like about it over the Sunfish is it has a bigger tub in the middle and the deck design. Other than that they are pretty much the same.

              Anyway it is time to find something to replace it, before it splits open on me.

              When are you going to put your fleet in the water? (Just picking.)

              Richard Huffman
              Nauteal
              Greensboro, NC






              ----- Original Message -----
              From: techmoose99
              To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:05 AM
              Subject: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction


              Hi Richard,

              One of the differences between Holders and Hobies can be the rudder.
              My Hobie was built in 1997, and it came with what is called a
              beaching rudder instead of a kick-up rudder that you can raise or
              lower by lifting the tiller up and down. I was just recently looking
              at an enlarged picture of a Hobie 12 on Ebay that they said was built
              in the early 90's and it looked to me like it had the beaching rudder
              like mine. With the beaching rudder, the rudder is basically held in
              position by tightening a knob at the rudder pivot point...you can
              read about it here on the forum under the "Need rudder help" thread.

              Also, my Hobie did not come with a boom vang. On one Hobie flyer, I
              saw the boom vang listed as standard equipment, yet on another Holder
              flyer, I saw the boom vang listed as optional. The owner of the
              Hobie on Ebay said he added the boom vang.

              According to the info in the files section of the forum, after 1985,
              the standard for the upper mast section was the fiberglass "Comptip"
              instead of aluminum. There used to be a retrofit program available
              for replacing the aluminum upper mast section, so it's possible for
              older boats to have the Comptip mast.

              I bought the Hobie because it looked to me like one of the more
              comfortable boats that two people could sail, in a boat of that size,
              type, and weight range. I haven't sailed it yet...so I don't know
              for sure! I'm only familiar with the Sunfish because I have a
              Minifish which I recently bought...I haven't sailed it either. A
              Sunfish can be set up for sailing very quickly, the Hobie will take a
              little longer. It's nice that the sail can be dropped quickly on the
              Sunfish, but one of the members on the forum here (Gail), modified
              his sail with sail rings, so he can raise or lower his sail quickly,
              and even reef it. Another member on the forum here (Shorty) uses a
              Sunfish rig on his Holder, you can see his boat in the photo
              section. The Hobie is wider than a Sunfish, so maybe it's more
              stable. I'm thinking you would stay drier on the Hobie too. Should
              be able to bring along more "stuff" on or inside the Hobie.

              Moose




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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Wayne Carney
              Moose et al, ... Three construction methods are applied to the Hobie/Holder boats - not necessarily all on the same boat design. (1) is the double hull (outer
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                Moose et al,

                > I saw reference to foam sandwich construction in the flyers from
                > Hobie, but I wonder if it differs from other boat manufacturer's foam
                > sandwich construction or if it only has it in certain parts of the
                > boat.

                Three construction methods are applied to the Hobie/Holder boats - not
                necessarily all on the same boat design. (1) is the double hull (outer
                hull/inner cockpit, hollow inside - except for the requisite foam blocks).
                Of course this is the basic design of them all (2) Vacuum formed fiberglass
                foam sandwich. This is a method to obtain a light weight hull without
                loosing strength. Most small fiberglass boats are made with a variation of
                this technique these days. The foam is a very thin layer. (3) Coremat(R) -
                Coremat is/was a flat glass/foam laminate that is cut in sections and
                glassed into flat hull areas to add strength and stiffness. Typically it is
                incorporated into the bottom of a boat.


                Wayne





                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: techmoose99 [mailto:JDVDBRCNBTQC@...]
                > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 4:36 PM
                > To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction
                >
                >
                > The hull is fiberglass. It's not like a Snark that has ABS plastic
                > over foam.
                >
                > I saw reference to foam sandwich contstruction in the flyers from
                > Hobie, but I wonder if it differs from other boat manufacturer's foam
                > sandwich construction or if it only has it in certain parts of the
                > boat.
                >
                > I have a fiberglass Sabot that has foam sandwich construction. I
                > know there is foam between inner and outer shell, because I saw the
                > foam when doing repairs. When I rap anywhere on the hull with my
                > knuckles, it sounds like a "thud". When I do the same on the Hobie
                > over most parts of the bottom of the hull, I get a more "hollow"
                > sound...it sounds more like a fiberglass shell to me, but "sounds"
                > can be deceiving.
                >
                > Maybe we'll hear more from those who have done some repairs on their
                > Hobies and see what they encountered.
                >
                > Moose
              • Wayne Carney
                Hi Richard, ... Hmmmm..., this sounds like a Nash Rambler car with a sail. 8^) Wayne
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                  Hi Richard,

                  > The Scorpion, the boat I have now, is one that my
                  > dad gave me a few years back....
                  > It has a beautiful deck design, Mine is baby blue
                  > in the middle with a white border and white hull.


                  Hmmmm..., this sounds like a Nash Rambler car with a sail.

                  8^)

                  Wayne
                • Wayne Carney
                  Richard, ... The Sunfish (and clones) set up more easily, but not by much. They are just about the simplest design out there and they sail well - at least the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                    Richard,

                    > What are your likes vs. dislikes or
                    > advantages over the Sunfish design?

                    The Sunfish (and clones) set up more easily, but not by much. They are just
                    about the simplest design out there and they sail well - at least the
                    Sunfish does... not all clones do though.

                    The Holder-12 is a bit more complex, but for the trouble you get a sleeker
                    hull design, Larger cockpit, a high aspect ratio sail rig, and a sail/mast
                    where the shape can be altered for better performance while sailing. The
                    Holder is a little wider than a Laser I and thereby a little more stable
                    making it a good fun and leisure boat as well as a good competition sailor.
                    What separates the Holder from other similar boats is that you don't have to
                    always sail it as though you were racing.


                    Wayne
                  • Wayne Carney
                    Moose, ... After becoming aware of the Knob mechanism and looking at the parts list at Hobie and reviewing the literature, I am inclined to think that both
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                      Moose,

                      > One of the differences between Holders and Hobies can be the rudder.
                      > My Hobie was built in 1997, and it came with what is called a
                      > beaching rudder instead of a kick-up rudder that you can raise or
                      > lower by lifting the tiller up and down. With the beaching rudder,
                      > the rudder is basically held in position by tightening a knob at the
                      > rudder pivot point.

                      After becoming aware of the Knob mechanism and looking at the parts list at
                      Hobie and reviewing the literature, I am inclined to think that both rudders
                      were always available. A kick-up design has been available on Holders dating
                      back to the pre-Hobie days of the 1970's. My thought is the "beaching
                      rudder" is the lower cost alternative - a way for dealers to configure the
                      boat to help entice price sensitive shoppers.



                      > Also, my Hobie did not come with a boom vang. On one Hobie flyer, I
                      > saw the boom vang listed as standard equipment, yet on another Holder
                      > flyer, I saw the boom vang listed as optional. The owner of the
                      > Hobie on Ebay said he added the boom vang.

                      Again I think this was as much marketing competition as it was a sign of a
                      particular model year.

                      Maybe we should gather information from owners about their boat's equipment,
                      what was stock and what they added later. Linking this to the Hull ID number
                      will give us a profile of when the factory made changes across the board or
                      offered something simply as an accessory.

                      I'll work on organizing this..... more later.


                      Wayne
                    • techmoose99
                      Richard...I m not sure when I ll get the fleet out. My wife tells me I have to stop swapping parts in order to take more than one boat out at time. I think
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
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                        Richard...I'm not sure when I'll get the fleet out. My wife tells me
                        I have to stop swapping parts in order to take more than one boat out
                        at time. I think she's right. Anyhow, I did order a few parts I
                        wanted, including a new sail for the Hobie.

                        Wayne...Thanks for explaining the different hull construction
                        techniques. I looked at those pictures inside of Shorty's boat and
                        wondered if that is Coremat running lengthwise on the side of the
                        boat just below the deck?

                        I think your explanation of the different parts on these boats makes
                        sense. I think I have the Econo-Hobie.

                        Moose
                      • Nauteal
                        Somewhere out here on the Net, I read that when the Scorpion was manufactured 1972 to 1975 that it was faster than the Sunfish. Supposedly the manufacturer of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
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                          Somewhere out here on the Net, I read that when the Scorpion was manufactured 1972 to 1975 that it was faster than the Sunfish. Supposedly the manufacturer of Sunfish during that time came back with some modifications and blew it out of the water.

                          If I could have a brand new scorpion out of the box today I would definitely take one. I think it would look natural being towed behind a 1957 Chevy . . . Nash Rambler . . . Ooo . . .

                          From: Wayne Carney
                          To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:40 AM
                          Subject: RE: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction


                          Hi Richard,

                          > The Scorpion, the boat I have now, is one that my
                          > dad gave me a few years back....
                          > It has a beautiful deck design, Mine is baby blue
                          > in the middle with a white border and white hull.


                          Hmmmm..., this sounds like a Nash Rambler car with a sail.

                          8^)

                          Wayne



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                          Holder12-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Wayne Carney
                          Richard, ... That would be toooooo coooool. I think that would make the cover of Popular Mechanics for sure. 8^) Wayne
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
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                            Richard,

                            >I think it would look natural being towed
                            > behind a 1957 Chevy . . . Nash Rambler . . . Ooo . . .

                            That would be toooooo coooool. I think that would make the cover of Popular
                            Mechanics for sure.

                            8^)

                            Wayne




                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Nauteal [mailto:nauteal@...]
                            > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 6:38 AM
                            > To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction
                            >
                            >
                            > Somewhere out here on the Net, I read that when the Scorpion was
                            > manufactured 1972 to 1975 that it was faster than the Sunfish.
                            > Supposedly the manufacturer of Sunfish during that time came back
                            > with some modifications and blew it out of the water.
                            >
                            > If I could have a brand new scorpion out of the box today I would
                            > definitely take one. I think it would look natural being towed
                            > behind a 1957 Chevy . . . Nash Rambler . . . Ooo . . .
                            >
                          • Wayne Carney
                            Moose, I did some PhotoShop magic to Shorty s pics to lighten the darker recesses. I see a lot of heavy Woven Roving and what looks to me like a 2 dia. bead
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
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                              Moose,

                              I did some PhotoShop magic to Shorty's pics to lighten the darker recesses.
                              I see a lot of heavy Woven Roving and what looks to me like a 2" dia. "bead"
                              of foam along the hull to deck joint. I was envisioning flat pieces on the
                              hull bottom overlaid by glass cloth. Hard to see what's on the bottom with
                              all the Fibber Magee's closet contents stowed in there.

                              When I install an inspection port or two I'll take some photos devoted
                              illustrating the boat's construction. Then we can start comparing different
                              years as other people snap pics of the same areas on their boat.


                              Wayne






                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: techmoose99 [mailto:JDVDBRCNBTQC@...]
                              > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:03 AM
                              > To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction
                              >
                              >
                              > Richard...I'm not sure when I'll get the fleet out. My wife tells me
                              > I have to stop swapping parts in order to take more than one boat out
                              > at time. I think she's right. Anyhow, I did order a few parts I
                              > wanted, including a new sail for the Hobie.
                              >
                              > Wayne...Thanks for explaining the different hull construction
                              > techniques. I looked at those pictures inside of Shorty's boat and
                              > wondered if that is Coremat running lengthwise on the side of the
                              > boat just below the deck?
                              >
                              > I think your explanation of the different parts on these boats makes
                              > sense. I think I have the Econo-Hobie.
                              >
                              > Moose
                            • techmoose99
                              It was enlightening to see how much stuff could be put through an inspection port. I just wonder if you can it back out! Moose
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
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                                It was enlightening to see how much stuff could be put through an
                                inspection port. I just wonder if you can it back out!

                                Moose
                              • Wayne Carney
                                Moose LOL
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
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                                  Moose

                                  LOL




                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: techmoose99 [mailto:JDVDBRCNBTQC@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:22 AM
                                  > To: Holder12@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Holder12] Re: Hull Construction
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > It was enlightening to see how much stuff could be put through an
                                  > inspection port. I just wonder if you can it back out!
                                  >
                                  > Moose
                                  >
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                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
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