Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [HeroWars] Re: Big spirit dudes

Expand Messages
  • Julian Lord
    ... An interesting point. I don t think that that is a universal truth, but in many Traditions that can certainly be true. Come to think of it, Ancestral
    Message 1 of 33 , Jul 1, 2000
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Peter :

      > >In fact, from an average shaman's POV, Integration of Spirits is a
      > >reinforcement of Identity ; and moving away from the Community.
      >
      > But the spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
      > identity irreversibly. If they are well-loved spirits of the
      > shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
      > be seen as a Bad Thing.

      An interesting point.

      I don't think that that is a universal truth, but in many Traditions that can
      certainly be true.

      Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by the GL
      World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic, half-way between
      shamanism & theism ...

      > The question was under what circumstances can a spirit be
      > persuaded to be integrated without hitting him over the
      > head.

      And a good question it is !

      Thing is, despite the fact (I would say) that various methods of Integration
      are possible, I think that a good rule of thumb for HW is to remember that they
      all involve some form of difficulty (and most likely psychic trauma) that can
      be well represented by your 'hitting him over the head' suggestion.

      In fact, I would say that more peaceful, politically correct, hippy-type
      shamans who integrate Spirits with a Peace & Love attitude actually have to hit
      *themselves* in the head, so to speak (using rigourously similar game
      mechanics) : that is, spiritually combat their own petty non-Integrated selves
      (their Id Monsters ?) to allow greater one-ness with the macrocosm ...

      The details will vary, in other words, but the HW mechanics should be
      remarkably similar in all cases ...

      cheers,

      Julian Lord
    • Julian Lord
      ... Ah ; I see. Because Ancestors for part of a magical bloodline that is transmitted through Sex & Death ; and the simple act of procreation creates a
      Message 33 of 33 , Jul 2, 2000
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Peter Metcalfe :

        > > > I could accept something like "after death,
        > > > our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
        > > > imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
        > > > extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.
        >
        > >I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.
        >
        > Why would Ancestors split off at death and not the other integrated
        > spirits?

        Ah ; I see.

        Because Ancestors for part of a magical bloodline that is transmitted through
        Sex & Death ; and the 'simple' act of procreation creates a Descendant who is
        transcendentally imbued with the Ancestors' Magic, and the power to contact
        them, unless (perhaps) they are currently Integrated or otherwise
        Manifest/Imprisoned elsewhere than in the ordinary Otherside of your Ancestors
        ? But another Integrated Spirit isn't part of the bloodline, and therefore
        remains bound within the magical aura of the dead one, as a Spirit captured
        into the Tradition by your Ancestor ?

        > > > >Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by
        > > > >the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
        > > > >half-way between shamanism & theism ...
        >
        > > > Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.
        >
        > >Not what I'm saying.
        >
        > Then what parts of ancestor worship look theistic to you? Worship
        > is not a theistic act.

        Hmmm ... I'm more or less happy to game with such HW roolz distinctions, but
        they're not entirely satisfying.

        As an illustration of what I'm trying to say (but we seem to have reached un
        unfortunate barrier of HW terminology) the Worship of his Ancestors by Raus of
        Rone, and the Worship of the Ancestral Baboons by their descendants are both
        forms of Ancestor Worship. It appears logical, then, that Ancestor Worship is a
        borderline religious technique.

        As to which parts of ancestor worship look theistic to me, well : that's
        trickier, because Ancestor Worship isn't a parti-coloured philosophy of magic
        from any POV, but a cohesive and internally coherent one : the Ancestors live
        in the Otherworld ; They are Us & We are They ; they live on through us, as we
        will live on in the blood of our descendants ; & they are the source of our
        magic.

        Now ; this obviously resembles HW animism more than anything else ; but, if
        your Ancestors happen to be a clan of sorcerors with their own Grimoire ; or if
        the Founder of your Family is a demigod, providing Theistic Feats to his
        descendants ; or if you are a grunting baboon ; in any case, there must be some
        rules for Ancestor Worship common to all of these particular cases (although it
        shouldn't be necessary to come up with an extra non-4/5/X-Worlds method of
        magic for AW).

        does that make sense ?

        cheers,

        Julian Lord
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.