Re: [HeroWars] Re: Big spirit dudes
- View SourcePeter :
> >In fact, from an average shaman's POV, Integration of Spirits is aAn interesting point.
> >reinforcement of Identity ; and moving away from the Community.
> But the spirits that the Shaman integrates are losing _their_
> identity irreversibly. If they are well-loved spirits of the
> shamans own tradition (like Ancestors), then this is going to
> be seen as a Bad Thing.
I don't think that that is a universal truth, but in many Traditions that can
certainly be true.
Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented by the GL
World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic, half-way between
shamanism & theism ...
> The question was under what circumstances can a spirit beAnd a good question it is !
> persuaded to be integrated without hitting him over the
Thing is, despite the fact (I would say) that various methods of Integration
are possible, I think that a good rule of thumb for HW is to remember that they
all involve some form of difficulty (and most likely psychic trauma) that can
be well represented by your 'hitting him over the head' suggestion.
In fact, I would say that more peaceful, politically correct, hippy-type
shamans who integrate Spirits with a Peace & Love attitude actually have to hit
*themselves* in the head, so to speak (using rigourously similar game
mechanics) : that is, spiritually combat their own petty non-Integrated selves
(their Id Monsters ?) to allow greater one-ness with the macrocosm ...
The details will vary, in other words, but the HW mechanics should be
remarkably similar in all cases ...
- View SourcePeter Metcalfe :
> > > I could accept something like "after death,Ah ; I see.
> > > our ancestors split off from our core self" but that to me would
> > > imply that all other integrated spirits also split off as it is
> > > extremely unlikely that a culture has two integration techniques.
> >I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.
> Why would Ancestors split off at death and not the other integrated
Because Ancestors for part of a magical bloodline that is transmitted through
Sex & Death ; and the 'simple' act of procreation creates a Descendant who is
transcendentally imbued with the Ancestors' Magic, and the power to contact
them, unless (perhaps) they are currently Integrated or otherwise
Manifest/Imprisoned elsewhere than in the ordinary Otherside of your Ancestors
? But another Integrated Spirit isn't part of the bloodline, and therefore
remains bound within the magical aura of the dead one, as a Spirit captured
into the Tradition by your Ancestor ?
> > > >Come to think of it, Ancestral shamanism is poorly represented byHmmm ... I'm more or less happy to game with such HW roolz distinctions, but
> > > >the GL World-View. It should probably be a Borderline magic,
> > > >half-way between shamanism & theism ...
> > > Just because you worship something doesn't make it theistic.
> >Not what I'm saying.
> Then what parts of ancestor worship look theistic to you? Worship
> is not a theistic act.
they're not entirely satisfying.
As an illustration of what I'm trying to say (but we seem to have reached un
unfortunate barrier of HW terminology) the Worship of his Ancestors by Raus of
Rone, and the Worship of the Ancestral Baboons by their descendants are both
forms of Ancestor Worship. It appears logical, then, that Ancestor Worship is a
borderline religious technique.
As to which parts of ancestor worship look theistic to me, well : that's
trickier, because Ancestor Worship isn't a parti-coloured philosophy of magic
from any POV, but a cohesive and internally coherent one : the Ancestors live
in the Otherworld ; They are Us & We are They ; they live on through us, as we
will live on in the blood of our descendants ; & they are the source of our
Now ; this obviously resembles HW animism more than anything else ; but, if
your Ancestors happen to be a clan of sorcerors with their own Grimoire ; or if
the Founder of your Family is a demigod, providing Theistic Feats to his
descendants ; or if you are a grunting baboon ; in any case, there must be some
rules for Ancestor Worship common to all of these particular cases (although it
shouldn't be necessary to come up with an extra non-4/5/X-Worlds method of
magic for AW).
does that make sense ?