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Re: Klingon, our Northern tongues

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  • Uncle Thor
    The real issue is not linguistics, but respect for the Gods. Too many people come to Heathenism and Paganism looking for a place to play their fantasies. We
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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      The real issue is not linguistics, but respect for the Gods. Too many
      people come to Heathenism and Paganism looking for a place to play
      their fantasies. We need to separate fantasy from worship. That's
      all. This is what separates the play Vikings from the real
      Heathens.

      An article on this subject will be in the next issue of Uncle Thor's
      Magazine Online.

      Uncle Thor


      --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I suppose there's a recipe in play here, with ingredients and
      amounts, and a process. We need to follow the right ingredient,
      amount and process to get the required result. I remember when I
      mucked about with cake mixes and didn't have the right amounts, so I
      threw in all the stuff and gave it a good stir. It was a different
      result, even with the right ingredients. And as my oven wasn't
      working, I used a frying pan with a lid. It was a nice cake, but it
      wasn't the one in the picture.
      >
      > sifers chazz <chazzone@...> wrote: That makes two of us,
      but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
      >
      > Your definition of what makes a language is not supported by
      academics, but then I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that your
      definition is meant for anyone except you.
      >
      > Klingon is recognized by linguists as a real language with all the
      hallmarks that are required. Thousands of people are using and
      studying it, so they would disagree with you, as well, but if you
      choose not to recognize it as such, then that is as may be. Tolkein's
      Elvish is similarly recognized as a language, even if not so many
      people use it.
      >
      > However, I'm sure it was you who suggested that we have to be able
      to apply heathenism to the new paradigms in which we find ourselves.
      This is simply another area where disparate people find ways to
      express their connection to the north gods.
      >
      > -zz
      >
      >
      >
      > Uncle Thor <thortrains1@...> wrote:
      > I disagree with you entirely.
      >
      > Modern English is a real world language that has evolved, as have
      > other real world languages. Klingon and Elvish are languages
      > invented as part of fantasy. They are aspects of fiction. Their use
      > for communication is limited, as their real intent is as part of
      > their respective fantasies. Klingons and Tolkien's pointy eared
      > elves are as ficitonal as Clark Kent and the Easter Bunny.
      >
      > Our Gods are not fantasy. They deserve our respect and reverence.
      > The Gods should not be trivialized by injecting science fiction /
      > fantasy into worship. The Gods are not Star Trek characters, LOTR
      > figures or D&D game pieces. They should not be approached as such.
      > We get too many SCA and D&D crossovers who come to Heathneism to
      play
      > Viking. This is a religion, and we do well to keep it separate from
      > our playthings.
      >
      > Uncle Thor
      >
      > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Charles Sifers <chazzone@>
      > wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > I think it is only disrespectful, if that is the intent,
      otherwise
      > it
      > > would be disrespectful to hold a blot in modern English.
      > >
      > > All languages are "made up". There is no such thing as a "fake"
      > > language. Language is how we communicate, and if you have a means
      > of
      > > transferring what's in your head to another, then you have
      language.
      > >
      > > Kaa Plaa!
      > >
      > > -zz
      > > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor wrote:
      > >
      > > I think it would be higghly disrespectful to the Gods to conduct
      a
      > blot
      > > in Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of these fake languages
      > is
      > > strictly a matter of entertainment. We cannot treat blots as
      > > playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in with Star Trek, Lord
      > of
      > > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons and Dragons, etc.
      > >
      > > Uncle Thor
      > >
      > > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > My understanding is that church services have been held in it
      > LOL.
      > > Con-
      > > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien had several, and
      > said
      > > he
      > > > wrote his books as a showcase for his languages. Rumor has it
      > that
      > > in
      > > > California social workers who speak Klingon have been hired.
      > Wonder
      > > > how you say: "Put all the snakes back in their cages and clean
      > up
      > > this
      > > > filthy trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in
      > > Klingon?
      > > > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-topic:
      > has
      > > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of the "old tongues"?
      > What
      > > > kind of immersion or camp experience might be available in
      > Icelandic,
      > > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Charles Sifers
      I can appreciate your position here. I know you have your religion, and you don t want people to bastardize that. I suppose it is important to respect all
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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        I can appreciate your position here. I know you have your religion,
        and you don't want people to bastardize that. I suppose it is
        important to respect all religions to a certain point. However, I'm
        not a religious person. I have no use for it what so ever. I get
        along with all the gods (not just the Norse pantheon) just fine, and
        I've never needed a priest or a ritual to get me to one, although I've
        been a priest and done plenty of ritual for folks.

        I see and understand what you folks do in a totally different
        perspective than you seem to, and I know that you can just leave it to
        the gods to sort out who is "true".

        Or would you suggest that we all have to "worship"?

        -zz


        On Dec 1, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Uncle Thor wrote:

        The real issue is not linguistics, but respect for the Gods. Too many
        people come to Heathenism and Paganism looking for a place to play
        their fantasies. We need to separate fantasy from worship. That's
        all. This is what separates the play Vikings from the real
        Heathens.

        An article on this subject will be in the next issue of Uncle Thor's
        Magazine Online.

        Uncle Thor



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • alfgar1@peoplepc.com
        Heil and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that seem to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING Heathen..our Gods are not
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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          Heil and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that seem to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING Heathen..our Gods are not some game...they are our Tru Ancestors...the sacred womb from which we came ...David
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Uncle Thor
          To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:11 AM
          Subject: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our Northern tongues


          The real issue is not linguistics, but respect for the Gods. Too many
          people come to Heathenism and Paganism looking for a place to play
          their fantasies. We need to separate fantasy from worship. That's
          all. This is what separates the play Vikings from the real
          Heathens.

          An article on this subject will be in the next issue of Uncle Thor's
          Magazine Online.

          Uncle Thor

          --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I suppose there's a recipe in play here, with ingredients and
          amounts, and a process. We need to follow the right ingredient,
          amount and process to get the required result. I remember when I
          mucked about with cake mixes and didn't have the right amounts, so I
          threw in all the stuff and gave it a good stir. It was a different
          result, even with the right ingredients. And as my oven wasn't
          working, I used a frying pan with a lid. It was a nice cake, but it
          wasn't the one in the picture.
          >
          > sifers chazz <chazzone@...> wrote: That makes two of us,
          but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
          >
          > Your definition of what makes a language is not supported by
          academics, but then I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that your
          definition is meant for anyone except you.
          >
          > Klingon is recognized by linguists as a real language with all the
          hallmarks that are required. Thousands of people are using and
          studying it, so they would disagree with you, as well, but if you
          choose not to recognize it as such, then that is as may be. Tolkein's
          Elvish is similarly recognized as a language, even if not so many
          people use it.
          >
          > However, I'm sure it was you who suggested that we have to be able
          to apply heathenism to the new paradigms in which we find ourselves.
          This is simply another area where disparate people find ways to
          express their connection to the north gods.
          >
          > -zz
          >
          >
          >
          > Uncle Thor <thortrains1@...> wrote:
          > I disagree with you entirely.
          >
          > Modern English is a real world language that has evolved, as have
          > other real world languages. Klingon and Elvish are languages
          > invented as part of fantasy. They are aspects of fiction. Their use
          > for communication is limited, as their real intent is as part of
          > their respective fantasies. Klingons and Tolkien's pointy eared
          > elves are as ficitonal as Clark Kent and the Easter Bunny.
          >
          > Our Gods are not fantasy. They deserve our respect and reverence.
          > The Gods should not be trivialized by injecting science fiction /
          > fantasy into worship. The Gods are not Star Trek characters, LOTR
          > figures or D&D game pieces. They should not be approached as such.
          > We get too many SCA and D&D crossovers who come to Heathneism to
          play
          > Viking. This is a religion, and we do well to keep it separate from
          > our playthings.
          >
          > Uncle Thor
          >
          > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Charles Sifers <chazzone@>
          > wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > I think it is only disrespectful, if that is the intent,
          otherwise
          > it
          > > would be disrespectful to hold a blot in modern English.
          > >
          > > All languages are "made up". There is no such thing as a "fake"
          > > language. Language is how we communicate, and if you have a means
          > of
          > > transferring what's in your head to another, then you have
          language.
          > >
          > > Kaa Plaa!
          > >
          > > -zz
          > > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor wrote:
          > >
          > > I think it would be higghly disrespectful to the Gods to conduct
          a
          > blot
          > > in Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of these fake languages
          > is
          > > strictly a matter of entertainment. We cannot treat blots as
          > > playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in with Star Trek, Lord
          > of
          > > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons and Dragons, etc.
          > >
          > > Uncle Thor
          > >
          > > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > My understanding is that church services have been held in it
          > LOL.
          > > Con-
          > > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien had several, and
          > said
          > > he
          > > > wrote his books as a showcase for his languages. Rumor has it
          > that
          > > in
          > > > California social workers who speak Klingon have been hired.
          > Wonder
          > > > how you say: "Put all the snakes back in their cages and clean
          > up
          > > this
          > > > filthy trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in
          > > Klingon?
          > > > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-topic:
          > has
          > > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of the "old tongues"?
          > What
          > > > kind of immersion or camp experience might be available in
          > Icelandic,
          > > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >






          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Viga Ulfsson
          The Wolfskins had a situation a while back. We were to work security for a pagan festival and do the opening ceremony of setting a Frithstead. The organizer
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            The Wolfskins had a situation a while back. We were to work security for a pagan festival and do the opening ceremony of setting a Frithstead. The organizer couldnt wait for us to do our "thing". They couldnt wait to see our costumes. Our what? Don't y'all wear furs and armour and horns? Umm no we wear jeans ,t-shirts and or Kilts(we are Manpretty). I explained that being Heathen is not dress up for us. We live it everyday. This is why I do not take most neo pagan fluffs serious. For most its a tag on their name or something to make them feel good about themselves. Alot of them liked being the spooky kid at school.


            Viga CuRuadh


            To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.comFrom: alfgar1@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:02:11 -0700Subject: Re: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our Northern tongues




            Heil and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that seem to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING Heathen..our Gods are not some game...they are our Tru Ancestors...the sacred womb from which we came ...David----- Original Message ----- From: Uncle Thor To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:11 AMSubject: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our Northern tonguesThe real issue is not linguistics, but respect for the Gods. Too many people come to Heathenism and Paganism looking for a place to play their fantasies. We need to separate fantasy from worship. That's all. This is what separates the play Vikings from the real Heathens. An article on this subject will be in the next issue of Uncle Thor's Magazine Online. Uncle Thor--- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@...> wrote:>> I suppose there's a recipe in play here, with ingredients and amounts, and a process. We need to follow the right ingredient, amount and process to get the required result. I remember when I mucked about with cake mixes and didn't have the right amounts, so I threw in all the stuff and gave it a good stir. It was a different result, even with the right ingredients. And as my oven wasn't working, I used a frying pan with a lid. It was a nice cake, but it wasn't the one in the picture. > > sifers chazz <chazzone@...> wrote: That makes two of us, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.> > Your definition of what makes a language is not supported by academics, but then I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that your definition is meant for anyone except you.> > Klingon is recognized by linguists as a real language with all the hallmarks that are required. Thousands of people are using and studying it, so they would disagree with you, as well, but if you choose not to recognize it as such, then that is as may be. Tolkein's Elvish is similarly recognized as a language, even if not so many people use it.> > However, I'm sure it was you who suggested that we have to be able to apply heathenism to the new paradigms in which we find ourselves. This is simply another area where disparate people find ways to express their connection to the north gods.> > -zz > > > > Uncle Thor <thortrains1@...> wrote:> I disagree with you entirely. > > Modern English is a real world language that has evolved, as have > other real world languages. Klingon and Elvish are languages > invented as part of fantasy. They are aspects of fiction. Their use > for communication is limited, as their real intent is as part of > their respective fantasies. Klingons and Tolkien's pointy eared > elves are as ficitonal as Clark Kent and the Easter Bunny.> > Our Gods are not fantasy. They deserve our respect and reverence. > The Gods should not be trivialized by injecting science fiction / > fantasy into worship. The Gods are not Star Trek characters, LOTR > figures or D&D game pieces. They should not be approached as such. > We get too many SCA and D&D crossovers who come to Heathneism to play > Viking. This is a religion, and we do well to keep it separate from > our playthings.> > Uncle Thor> > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Charles Sifers <chazzone@> > wrote:> > >> > I think it is only disrespectful, if that is the intent, otherwise > it > > would be disrespectful to hold a blot in modern English.> > > > All languages are "made up". There is no such thing as a "fake" > > language. Language is how we communicate, and if you have a means > of > > transferring what's in your head to another, then you have language.> > > > Kaa Plaa!> > > > -zz> > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor wrote:> > > > I think it would be higghly disrespectful to the Gods to conduct a > blot> > in Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of these fake languages > is> > strictly a matter of entertainment. We cannot treat blots as> > playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in with Star Trek, Lord > of> > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons and Dragons, etc.> > > > Uncle Thor> > > > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@> > > wrote:> > >> > > My understanding is that church services have been held in it > LOL.> > Con-> > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien had several, and > said> > he> > > wrote his books as a showcase for his languages. Rumor has it > that> > in> > > California social workers who speak Klingon have been hired. > Wonder> > > how you say: "Put all the snakes back in their cages and clean > up> > this> > > filthy trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in> > Klingon?> > > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-topic: > has> > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of the "old tongues"? > What> > > kind of immersion or camp experience might be available in > Icelandic,> > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin> > >> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>----------------------------------------------------------No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            _________________________________________________________________
            Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
            http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007

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          • Diane Grace
            Thank you for sharing this. I was beginning to feel somewhat weird. Except for my home altar, I look pretty much like anybody else. I m really not into
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you for sharing this. I was beginning to feel somewhat weird.
              Except for my home altar, I look pretty much like anybody else. I'm
              really not into scratchy wool dresses. I do wear a pair of Uggs in the
              winter though. And the Gods I hang with don't seem to need an
              interpreter, they understand heartfelt English (American version) just
              fine.

              Diane the other

              --- Viga Ulfsson <ulfnsson@...> wrote:

              > The Wolfskins had a situation a while back. We were to work security
              > for a pagan festival and do the opening ceremony of setting a
              > Frithstead. The organizer couldnt wait for us to do our "thing". They
              > couldnt wait to see our costumes. Our what? Don't y'all wear furs and
              > armour and horns? Umm no we wear jeans ,t-shirts and or Kilts(we are
              > Manpretty). I explained that being Heathen is not dress up for us. We
              > live it everyday. This is why I do not take most neo pagan fluffs
              > serious. For most its a tag on their name or something to make them
              > feel good about themselves. Alot of them liked being the spooky kid
              > at school.
              >
              >
              > Viga CuRuadh
              >
              >
              > To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.comFrom: alfgar1@...: Sat, 1
              > Dec 2007 11:02:11 -0700Subject: Re: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our
              > Northern tongues
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Heil and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that
              > seem to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING
              > Heathen..our Gods are not some game...they are our Tru
              > Ancestors...the sacred womb from which we came ...David----- Original
              > Message ----- From: Uncle Thor To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com Sent:
              > Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:11 AMSubject: [HeathenNews] Re:
              > Klingon, our Northern tonguesThe real issue is not linguistics, but
              > respect for the Gods. Too many people come to Heathenism and Paganism
              > looking for a place to play their fantasies. We need to separate
              > fantasy from worship. That's all. This is what separates the play
              > Vikings from the real Heathens. An article on this subject will be in
              > the next issue of Uncle Thor's Magazine Online. Uncle Thor--- In
              > HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@...>
              > wrote:>> I suppose there's a recipe in play here, with ingredients
              > and amounts, and a process. We need to follow the right ingredient,
              > amount and process to get the required result. I remember when I
              > mucked about with cake mixes and didn't have the right amounts, so I
              > threw in all the stuff and gave it a good stir. It was a different
              > result, even with the right ingredients. And as my oven wasn't
              > working, I used a frying pan with a lid. It was a nice cake, but it
              > wasn't the one in the picture. > > sifers chazz <chazzone@...> wrote:
              > That makes two of us, but you are certainly entitled to your
              > opinion.> > Your definition of what makes a language is not supported
              > by academics, but then I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that your
              > definition is meant for anyone except you.> > Klingon is recognized
              > by linguists as a real language with all the hallmarks that are
              > required. Thousands of people are using and studying it, so they
              > would disagree with you, as well, but if you choose not to recognize
              > it as such, then that is as may be. Tolkein's Elvish is similarly
              > recognized as a language, even if not so many people use it.> >
              > However, I'm sure it was you who suggested that we have to be able to
              > apply heathenism to the new paradigms in which we find ourselves.
              > This is simply another area where disparate people find ways to
              > express their connection to the north gods.> > -zz > > > > Uncle Thor
              > <thortrains1@...> wrote:> I disagree with you entirely. > > Modern
              > English is a real world language that has evolved, as have > other
              > real world languages. Klingon and Elvish are languages > invented as
              > part of fantasy. They are aspects of fiction. Their use > for
              > communication is limited, as their real intent is as part of > their
              > respective fantasies. Klingons and Tolkien's pointy eared > elves are
              > as ficitonal as Clark Kent and the Easter Bunny.> > Our Gods are not
              > fantasy. They deserve our respect and reverence. > The Gods should
              > not be trivialized by injecting science fiction / > fantasy into
              > worship. The Gods are not Star Trek characters, LOTR > figures or D&D
              > game pieces. They should not be approached as such. > We get too many
              > SCA and D&D crossovers who come to Heathneism to play > Viking. This
              > is a religion, and we do well to keep it separate from > our
              > playthings.> > Uncle Thor> > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com,
              > Charles Sifers <chazzone@> > wrote:> > >> > I think it is only
              > disrespectful, if that is the intent, otherwise > it > > would be
              > disrespectful to hold a blot in modern English.> > > > All languages
              > are "made up". There is no such thing as a "fake" > > language.
              > Language is how we communicate, and if you have a means > of > >
              > transferring what's in your head to another, then you have language.>
              > > > > Kaa Plaa!> > > > -zz> > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor
              > wrote:> > > > I think it would be higghly disrespectful to the Gods
              > to conduct a > blot> > in Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of
              > these fake languages > is> > strictly a matter of entertainment. We
              > cannot treat blots as> > playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in
              > with Star Trek, Lord > of> > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons
              > and Dragons, etc.> > > > Uncle Thor> > > > --- In
              > HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@> > > wrote:> >
              > >> > > My understanding is that church services have been held in it
              > > LOL.> > Con-> > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien had
              > several, and > said> > he> > > wrote his books as a showcase for his
              > languages. Rumor has it > that> > in> > > California social workers
              > who speak Klingon have been hired. > Wonder> > > how you say: "Put
              > all the snakes back in their cages and clean > up> > this> > > filthy
              > trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in> > Klingon?> >
              > > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-topic: >
              > has> > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of the "old
              > tongues"? > What> > > kind of immersion or camp experience might be
              > available in > Icelandic,> > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin> > >> > > > >
              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > >
              > ---------------------------------> Sent from Yahoo! - the
              > World's favourite mail.> > [Non-text portions of this message
              > have been
              > removed]>----------------------------------------------------------No
              > virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
              > 11/30/2007 12:12 PM[Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
              >
              http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Viga Ulfsson
              In truth most of the Folk you wouldn t know they are Heathen unless you spot a hammer or they are wearing a t-shirt with something heathen related on it. We
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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                In truth most of the Folk you wouldn't know they are Heathen unless you spot a hammer or they are wearing a t-shirt with something heathen related on it. We look to the past but live in the present.

                Viga CuRuadh


                To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.comFrom: dgraceathome@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:44:29 -0800Subject: RE: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our Northern tongues




                Thank you for sharing this. I was beginning to feel somewhat weird.Except for my home altar, I look pretty much like anybody else. I'mreally not into scratchy wool dresses. I do wear a pair of Uggs in thewinter though. And the Gods I hang with don't seem to need aninterpreter, they understand heartfelt English (American version) justfine.Diane the other--- Viga Ulfsson <ulfnsson@...> wrote:> The Wolfskins had a situation a while back. We were to work security> for a pagan festival and do the opening ceremony of setting a> Frithstead. The organizer couldnt wait for us to do our "thing". They> couldnt wait to see our costumes. Our what? Don't y'all wear furs and> armour and horns? Umm no we wear jeans ,t-shirts and or Kilts(we are> Manpretty). I explained that being Heathen is not dress up for us. We> live it everyday. This is why I do not take most neo pagan fluffs> serious. For most its a tag on their name or something to make them> feel good about themselves. Alot of them liked being the spooky kid> at school. > > > Viga CuRuadh> > > To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.comFrom: alfgar1@...: Sat, 1> Dec 2007 11:02:11 -0700Subject: Re: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our> Northern tongues> > > > > Heil and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that> seem to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING> Heathen..our Gods are not some game...they are our Tru> Ancestors...the sacred womb from which we came ...David----- Original> Message ----- From: Uncle Thor To: HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com Sent:> Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:11 AMSubject: [HeathenNews] Re:> Klingon, our Northern tonguesThe real issue is not linguistics, but> respect for the Gods. Too many people come to Heathenism and Paganism> looking for a place to play their fantasies. We need to separate> fantasy from worship. That's all. This is what separates the play> Vikings from the real Heathens. An article on this subject will be in> the next issue of Uncle Thor's Magazine Online. Uncle Thor--- In> HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@...>> wrote:>> I suppose there's a recipe in play here, with ingredients> and amounts, and a process. We need to follow the right ingredient,> amount and process to get the required result. I remember when I> mucked about with cake mixes and didn't have the right amounts, so I> threw in all the stuff and gave it a good stir. It was a different> result, even with the right ingredients. And as my oven wasn't> working, I used a frying pan with a lid. It was a nice cake, but it> wasn't the one in the picture. > > sifers chazz <chazzone@...> wrote:> That makes two of us, but you are certainly entitled to your> opinion.> > Your definition of what makes a language is not supported> by academics, but then I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that your> definition is meant for anyone except you.> > Klingon is recognized> by linguists as a real language with all the hallmarks that are> required. Thousands of people are using and studying it, so they> would disagree with you, as well, but if you choose not to recognize> it as such, then that is as may be. Tolkein's Elvish is similarly> recognized as a language, even if not so many people use it.> >> However, I'm sure it was you who suggested that we have to be able to> apply heathenism to the new paradigms in which we find ourselves.> This is simply another area where disparate people find ways to> express their connection to the north gods.> > -zz > > > > Uncle Thor> <thortrains1@...> wrote:> I disagree with you entirely. > > Modern> English is a real world language that has evolved, as have > other> real world languages. Klingon and Elvish are languages > invented as> part of fantasy. They are aspects of fiction. Their use > for> communication is limited, as their real intent is as part of > their> respective fantasies. Klingons and Tolkien's pointy eared > elves are> as ficitonal as Clark Kent and the Easter Bunny.> > Our Gods are not> fantasy. They deserve our respect and reverence. > The Gods should> not be trivialized by injecting science fiction / > fantasy into> worship. The Gods are not Star Trek characters, LOTR > figures or D&D> game pieces. They should not be approached as such. > We get too many> SCA and D&D crossovers who come to Heathneism to play > Viking. This> is a religion, and we do well to keep it separate from > our> playthings.> > Uncle Thor> > --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com,> Charles Sifers <chazzone@> > wrote:> > >> > I think it is only> disrespectful, if that is the intent, otherwise > it > > would be> disrespectful to hold a blot in modern English.> > > > All languages> are "made up". There is no such thing as a "fake" > > language.> Language is how we communicate, and if you have a means > of > >> transferring what's in your head to another, then you have language.>> > > > Kaa Plaa!> > > > -zz> > On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor> wrote:> > > > I think it would be higghly disrespectful to the Gods> to conduct a > blot> > in Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of> these fake languages > is> > strictly a matter of entertainment. We> cannot treat blots as> > playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in> with Star Trek, Lord > of> > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons> and Dragons, etc.> > > > Uncle Thor> > > > --- In> HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@> > > wrote:> >> >> > > My understanding is that church services have been held in it> > LOL.> > Con-> > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien had> several, and > said> > he> > > wrote his books as a showcase for his> languages. Rumor has it > that> > in> > > California social workers> who speak Klingon have been hired. > Wonder> > > how you say: "Put> all the snakes back in their cages and clean > up> > this> > > filthy> trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in> > Klingon?> >> > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-topic: >> has> > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of the "old> tongues"? > What> > > kind of immersion or camp experience might be> available in > Icelandic,> > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin> > >> > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > >> ---------------------------------> Sent from Yahoo! - the> World's favourite mail.> > [Non-text portions of this message> have been> removed]>----------------------------------------------------------No> virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:> 11/30/2007 12:12 PM[Non-text portions of this message have been> removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.>http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >






                _________________________________________________________________
                Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Uncle Thor
                This is all very good. I also worship in plain clothes and speak in plain language. Frankly, some folks might find my way of doing things boring. No fancy
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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                  This is all very good. I also worship in plain clothes and speak in
                  plain language. Frankly, some folks might find my way of doing
                  things boring. No fancy outfits or fancy invocations; everything is
                  kept simple and direct.

                  Uncle Thor


                  --- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, Viga Ulfsson <ulfnsson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > In truth most of the Folk you wouldn't know they are Heathen unless
                  you spot a hammer or they are wearing a t-shirt with something
                  heathen related on it. We look to the past but live in the present.
                  >
                  > Viga CuRuadh
                  >
                  >
                  > To: HeathenNews@...: dgraceathome@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:44:29 -
                  0800Subject: RE: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our Northern tongues
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you for sharing this. I was beginning to feel somewhat
                  weird.Except for my home altar, I look pretty much like anybody else.
                  I'mreally not into scratchy wool dresses. I do wear a pair of Uggs in
                  thewinter though. And the Gods I hang with don't seem to need
                  aninterpreter, they understand heartfelt English (American version)
                  justfine.Diane the other--- Viga Ulfsson <ulfnsson@...> wrote:> The
                  Wolfskins had a situation a while back. We were to work security> for
                  a pagan festival and do the opening ceremony of setting a>
                  Frithstead. The organizer couldnt wait for us to do our "thing".
                  They> couldnt wait to see our costumes. Our what? Don't y'all wear
                  furs and> armour and horns? Umm no we wear jeans ,t-shirts and or
                  Kilts(we are> Manpretty). I explained that being Heathen is not dress
                  up for us. We> live it everyday. This is why I do not take most neo
                  pagan fluffs> serious. For most its a tag on their name or something
                  to make them> feel good about themselves. Alot of them liked being
                  the spooky kid> at school. > > > Viga CuRuadh> > > To:
                  HeathenNews@...: alfgar1@...: Sat, 1> Dec 2007 11:02:11 -0700Subject:
                  Re: [HeathenNews] Re: Klingon, our> Northern tongues> > > > > Heil
                  and well said Uncle Thor! i find way too many SCA people that> seem
                  to be..playing at being Heathen more than actually BEING>
                  Heathen..our Gods are not some game...they are our Tru>
                  Ancestors...the sacred womb from which we came ...David-----
                  Original> Message ----- From: Uncle Thor To:
                  HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com Sent:> Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:11
                  AMSubject: [HeathenNews] Re:> Klingon, our Northern tonguesThe real
                  issue is not linguistics, but> respect for the Gods. Too many people
                  come to Heathenism and Paganism> looking for a place to play their
                  fantasies. We need to separate> fantasy from worship. That's all.
                  This is what separates the play> Vikings from the real Heathens. An
                  article on this subject will be in> the next issue of Uncle Thor's
                  Magazine Online. Uncle Thor--- In> HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com,
                  Glaucos Osborne <nyktophylax@>> wrote:>> I suppose there's a recipe
                  in play here, with ingredients> and amounts, and a process. We need
                  to follow the right ingredient,> amount and process to get the
                  required result. I remember when I> mucked about with cake mixes and
                  didn't have the right amounts, so I> threw in all the stuff and gave
                  it a good stir. It was a different> result, even with the right
                  ingredients. And as my oven wasn't> working, I used a frying pan with
                  a lid. It was a nice cake, but it> wasn't the one in the picture. > >
                  sifers chazz <chazzone@> wrote:> That makes two of us, but you are
                  certainly entitled to your> opinion.> > Your definition of what makes
                  a language is not supported> by academics, but then I'm sure you
                  wouldn't suggest that your> definition is meant for anyone except
                  you.> > Klingon is recognized> by linguists as a real language with
                  all the hallmarks that are> required. Thousands of people are using
                  and studying it, so they> would disagree with you, as well, but if
                  you choose not to recognize> it as such, then that is as may be.
                  Tolkein's Elvish is similarly> recognized as a language, even if not
                  so many people use it.> >> However, I'm sure it was you who suggested
                  that we have to be able to> apply heathenism to the new paradigms in
                  which we find ourselves.> This is simply another area where disparate
                  people find ways to> express their connection to the north gods.> > -
                  zz > > > > Uncle Thor> <thortrains1@> wrote:> I disagree with you
                  entirely. > > Modern> English is a real world language that has
                  evolved, as have > other> real world languages. Klingon and Elvish
                  are languages > invented as> part of fantasy. They are aspects of
                  fiction. Their use > for> communication is limited, as their real
                  intent is as part of > their> respective fantasies. Klingons and
                  Tolkien's pointy eared > elves are> as ficitonal as Clark Kent and
                  the Easter Bunny.> > Our Gods are not> fantasy. They deserve our
                  respect and reverence. > The Gods should> not be trivialized by
                  injecting science fiction / > fantasy into> worship. The Gods are not
                  Star Trek characters, LOTR > figures or D&D> game pieces. They should
                  not be approached as such. > We get too many> SCA and D&D crossovers
                  who come to Heathneism to play > Viking. This> is a religion, and we
                  do well to keep it separate from > our> playthings.> > Uncle Thor> > -
                  -- In HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com,> Charles Sifers <chazzone@> >
                  wrote:> > >> > I think it is only> disrespectful, if that is the
                  intent, otherwise > it > > would be> disrespectful to hold a blot in
                  modern English.> > > > All languages> are "made up". There is no such
                  thing as a "fake" > > language.> Language is how we communicate, and
                  if you have a means > of > >> transferring what's in your head to
                  another, then you have language.>> > > > Kaa Plaa!> > > > -zz> > On
                  Nov 29, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Uncle Thor> wrote:> > > > I think it would
                  be higghly disrespectful to the Gods> to conduct a > blot> > in
                  Klingon or Elfen or whatever. The use of> these fake languages > is>
                  > strictly a matter of entertainment. We> cannot treat blots as> >
                  playthings. Our Gods are not to be lumped in> with Star Trek, Lord >
                  of> > the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, Dungeons> and Dragons, etc.> >
                  > > Uncle Thor> > > > --- In>
                  HeathenNews@yahoogroups.com, "jordsvin1313" <Jordsvin@> > > wrote:>
                  >> >> > > My understanding is that church services have been held in
                  it> > LOL.> > Con-> > > langs (made up languages) can be fun. Tolkien
                  had> several, and > said> > he> > > wrote his books as a showcase for
                  his> languages. Rumor has it > that> > in> > > California social
                  workers> who speak Klingon have been hired. > Wonder> > > how you
                  say: "Put> all the snakes back in their cages and clean > up> > this>
                  > > filthy> trailer or I'll be back tomorrow to take the kids!" in> >
                  Klingon?> >> > There is even a Klingon language camp. Back towards on-
                  topic: >> has> > > anyone tried that with Anglo-Saxon or any of
                  the "old> tongues"? > What> > > kind of immersion or camp experience
                  might be> available in > Icelandic,> > > Norwegian, etc? Jordsvin> >
                  >> > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  removed]> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > >> ---------------------------------> Sent from Yahoo! -
                  the> World's favourite mail.> > [Non-text portions of this message>
                  have been> removed]>--------------------------------------------------
                  --------No> virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free
                  Edition.> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release
                  Date:> 11/30/2007 12:12 PM[Non-text portions of this message have
                  been> removed] > > > > > > >
                  __________________________________________________________> Connect
                  and share in new ways with Windows
                  Live.>http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?
                  ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007> > [Non-text portions of this
                  message have been removed]> >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                  > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?
                  ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Charles Sifers
                  So...I m wondering where all this righteous indignation goes? Do heathens (in jeans and t-shirts, but wearing torques and hammers) start marching out side of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2007
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                    So...I'm wondering where all this righteous indignation goes?

                    Do heathens (in jeans and t-shirts, but wearing torques and hammers)
                    start marching out side of Star Trek conventions, Gen Con, and pagan
                    fests? Can it be that heathens are so marginalized that they see a
                    threat from geeks?

                    Do we see a new breed of the Ulfenhars busting in to people's homes and
                    despoiling the rits of folks who aren't "doing it right"? Who hands
                    out the orders, Steve McNAllen?


                    Now, I hope you know that I'm having a bit of a go at you, so don't be
                    offended.

                    It's just that I've been in some pretty tough bars in my life, and know
                    some guys who can pretty much take care of the business at hand. So
                    when some fool starts running his mouth to one of those guys, I just
                    kind of step back out of the line of fire. I pretty much see the North
                    Gods like that. It's a lot more interesting (not to mention
                    educational) to sit back and watch the results of such foolishness.

                    So, I appreciate your passion and sense of honor, but aren't most of
                    the folks you're talking about somewhat sympathetic to your cause? Why
                    piss off a bunch of geeks and wannabe's when there are real threats to
                    the heathen community. (imitation has been called the sincerest form of
                    flattery)

                    Is it really productive to the community as a whole to have a call to
                    arms against people who aren't really your enemies?

                    I'm probably way out of line here, but I've been seeing a lot of the
                    Tyr rune around lately, and it always makes me think...

                    -zz
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