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Re: [HOn3] N scale 4-4-0 Detailing Upgrade Kit ND-022 by NZT Products

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  • snookdust2001
    Hello Ed, as you know PSC makes driver centers for the 36 c-16 drivers and the 48 driver centers from the old Kemtron 2-6-0 mogul. I made up some 48
    Message 1 of 15 , May 15, 2013
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      Hello Ed, as you know PSC makes driver centers for the 36" c-16 drivers and
      the 48" driver centers from the old Kemtron 2-6-0 mogul. I made up some
      48" drivers for the FED NWSL 4-4-0 engines with luke warm response. Making
      tires from 303 stock would take mucho machining. It would be much easier to
      use NWSL wheels and machine those. NWSL lists many wheels in nickel silver
      but have been slow in making them. The older modelers that did
      scratchbuilding are fading out with many younger modelers looking for ready to run as
      the many wishes on this list for Blackstone to produce a rtr 4-4-0 and/or a
      K-36 indicate. Bob Veefkind


      In a message dated 5/14/2013 11:11:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      23.weldon@... writes:

      For scratch builders of small locomotives in HO scale these 30" driver
      centers from NZT are an exciting development.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ed
      Bob - One guy N scale guy who may be in the know thinks the NZT driver centers are resin castings. My enthusiasm drops a notch.... If you have to machine the
      Message 2 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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        Bob - One guy N scale guy who may be in the know thinks the NZT driver centers are resin castings. My enthusiasm drops a notch....
        If you have to machine the drivers yourself on a simple lathe it makes more sense to find NWSL pieces. Once you get some volume you go 303 on an automatic lathe. (Dreaming again; ha ha.)
        The idea of a resin insert that is non-structural is still interesting. DIY stuff using a machined down production loco driver as a master. The trick may be leaving enough material in the metal part of the driver to reliably mount/press/attach an axle. Means with some fiddling with cutters in the lathe to get it right. Still we haven't had a source of 30 inch drivers in HO scale that don't mean canabalizing some N scale production loco with the wrong counterweights.
        Good to hear from you again, Bob. Now back to a subject of wider possible interest:

        OK. Who's going to be the first modeler to take two Blackstone C-19's and use them to build an HOn3 Beyer Garrett?
        Ed Weldon

        --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, snookdust@... wrote:
        > Hello Ed, as you know PSC makes driver centers for the 36" c-16 drivers and
        > the 48" driver centers from the old Kemtron 2-6-0 mogul. I made up some
        > 48" drivers for the FED NWSL 4-4-0 engines with luke warm response. Making
        > tires from 303 stock would take mucho machining. It would be much easier to
        > use NWSL wheels and machine those. NWSL lists many wheels in nickel silver
        > but have been slow in making them. The older modelers that did
        > scratchbuilding are fading out with many younger modelers looking for ready to run as
        > the many wishes on this list for Blackstone to produce a rtr 4-4-0 and/or a K-36 indicate. Bob Veefkind
      • Ed
        Bob - One guy N scale guy who may be in the know thinks the NZT driver centers are resin castings. My enthusiasm drops a notch.... If you have to machine the
        Message 3 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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          Bob - One guy N scale guy who may be in the know thinks the NZT driver centers are resin castings. My enthusiasm drops a notch....
          If you have to machine the drivers yourself on a simple lathe it makes more sense to find NWSL pieces. Once you get some volume you go 303 on an automatic lathe. (Dreaming again; ha ha.)
          The idea of a resin insert that is non-structural is still interesting. DIY stuff using a machined down production loco driver as a master. The trick may be leaving enough material in the metal part of the driver to reliably mount/press/attach an axle. Means with some fiddling with cutters in the lathe to get it right. Still we haven't had a source of 30 inch drivers in HO scale that don't mean canabalizing some N scale production loco with the wrong counterweights.
          Good to hear from you again, Bob. Now back to a subject of wider possible interest:

          OK. Who's going to be the first modeler to take two Blackstone C-19's and use them to build an HOn3 Beyer Garrett?
          Ed Weldon

          --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, snookdust@... wrote:
          >
          > Hello Ed, as you know PSC makes driver centers for the 36" c-16 drivers and
          > the 48" driver centers from the old Kemtron 2-6-0 mogul. I made up some
          > 48" drivers for the FED NWSL 4-4-0 engines with luke warm response. Making
          > tires from 303 stock would take mucho machining. It would be much easier to
          > use NWSL wheels and machine those. NWSL lists many wheels in nickel silver
          > but have been slow in making them. The older modelers that did
          > scratchbuilding are fading out with many younger modelers looking for ready to run as
          > the many wishes on this list for Blackstone to produce a rtr 4-4-0 and/or a
          > K-36 indicate. Bob Veefkind
        • Ed
          Sorry for the double post. Yahoo is weird tonight. Ed
          Message 4 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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            Sorry for the double post. Yahoo is weird tonight. Ed
          • Mike Chaney
            Ed Weldon challenged:- ... Slight problem. None of the Beyer Garratts had Stephensons valve gear. Two K27s would be closer, except that Garratts (of any
            Message 5 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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              Ed Weldon challenged:-

              > OK. Who's going to be the first modeler to take two Blackstone C-19's and
              > use them to build an HOn3 Beyer Garrett?

              Slight problem. None of the Beyer Garratts had Stephensons valve gear. Two
              K27s would be closer, except that Garratts (of any manufacture) were never
              used north of Panama, so the boiler and cab outline might not be
              appropriate. It would be one heck of a re-build!

              Pedantically yours,

              Mike (currently building the 1st ever Garratt (K1) in 15mm/ft.)
            • Mike Bauers
              The builder would have a rare experiment Garrett ......... Only 1 out of ten thousand folks will see anything amiss. Best to ya... Mike Bauers
              Message 6 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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                The builder would have a rare experiment Garrett .........

                Only 1 out of ten thousand folks will see anything amiss.

                Best to ya...
                Mike Bauers
              • d_rg_br
                Ed, Garratts ran in the UK, Spain, the Netherlands and in Russia without mentioning North Africa, all north of Panama. The K1´s are from the Daarjeeling
                Message 7 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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                  Ed,
                  Garratts ran in the UK, Spain, the Netherlands and in Russia
                  without mentioning North Africa, all north of Panama.
                  The K1´s are from the Daarjeeling Himalayan and date to the early
                  1900´s, beautifull locomotives, but I like the NGG-16 from SAR more.
                  And, oops, also north of Panama.

                  MCG de Oliveira

                  --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Chaney" <michaelchaney@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ed Weldon challenged:-
                  except that Garratts (of any manufacture) were never
                  > used north of Panama, so the boiler and cab outline might not be
                  > appropriate. It would be one heck of a re-build!
                  >
                  > Pedantically yours,
                  >
                  > Mike (currently building the 1st ever Garratt (K1) in 15mm/ft.)
                  >
                • Marcelo Lordeiro
                  MCG, K1 s are from Tasmania , the Darjeeling Garratts were the first with the cylinders toward the fronts . Brazil , Argentina , Bolivia , Peru ,... also had
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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                    MCG,

                    K1's are from Tasmania , the Darjeeling Garratts were the first with the cylinders toward the fronts .

                    Brazil , Argentina , Bolivia , Peru ,... also had lots of Garratts.

                    South africa had almost all types of Garratts .

                    My best

                    Marcelo Lordeiro
                  • bcpryor
                    ... Have one sent over by a European admirer, sort of what happened on the D&RG narrow gauge: http://www.enuii.org/vulcan_foundry/fairlies.htm The engine
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 16, 2013
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                      ... so the boiler and cab outline might not be
                      > appropriate.
                      >


                      Have one sent over by a European admirer, sort of what happened on the D&RG narrow gauge:

                      http://www.enuii.org/vulcan_foundry/fairlies.htm

                      " The engine illustrated above was built by the Vulcan it is said (Vulcan myth), to the order of the Duke of Sutherland and was presented by him to the Denver and Rio Grande Railway who in reality paid £2900 for it. "

                      Bruce
                    • Mike Chaney
                      MCG wrote:- ... Sorreeeee. I though I was talking to a North American. ([: ) Anyway, South Africa is south of Panama and the K class (K1 and K2)were built
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 17, 2013
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                        MCG wrote:-

                        > Garratts ran in the UK, Spain, the Netherlands and in Russia
                        > without mentioning North Africa, all north of Panama.
                        > The K1´s are from the Daarjeeling Himalayan and date to the early
                        > 1900´s, beautifull locomotives, but I like the NGG-16 from SAR more.
                        > And, oops, also north of Panama.

                        Sorreeeee. I though I was talking to a North American. ([:>) Anyway, South
                        Africa is south of Panama and the K class (K1 and K2)were built for Tasmania
                        (also south of Panama.)

                        Mike the rivet counter

                        (I hadn't forgotten the Forney-Hobbs. I simply didn't know about it.)
                      • John Stutz
                        ... But this is exactly what Westside Models did about 25 years ago: A pair of K-27 chassis, a K-27 boiler on a fishbelly side sill flat frame, an SP whaleback
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 17, 2013
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                          On 05/16/2013 03:18 AM, Mike Chaney wrote:
                          > Ed Weldon challenged:-
                          >
                          > > OK. Who's going to be the first modeler to take two Blackstone C-19's and
                          > > use them to build an HOn3 Beyer Garrett?
                          >
                          > Slight problem. None of the Beyer Garratts had Stephensons valve gear. Two
                          > K27s would be closer, except that Garratts (of any manufacture) were never
                          > used north of Panama, so the boiler and cab outline might not be
                          > appropriate. It would be one heck of a re-build!

                          But this is exactly what Westside Models did about 25 years ago: A pair of K-27
                          chassis, a K-27 boiler on a fishbelly side sill flat frame, an SP whaleback
                          tender shell up front and K-27 tender shell on the rear unit. Look up their
                          "American Garrett'. As LocoDoc recently mentioned, Westside used the #460
                          modern slide valve chassis, but they also supplied a set of piston valve
                          cylinders and Walscharts valve gear.

                          A Westside or Blackstone piston valve K-27 would be suitable, but the 'American
                          Garrett' was poorly proportioned, with undersize boiler and oversize tanks. It
                          needs at least a K-36 or K-37 boiler with a much deeper firebox, and much
                          smaller coal and water supplies. Additionally, most 30" and wider gauge
                          Garratts were inside framed. The PFM WP&Y Mike of circa 1970 would be a more
                          prototypical choice for a chassis, or a pair of the larger EBT Mikes.

                          The Gazette ran a kitbashing contest when the MDC 2-8-0s first came out, and two
                          of the winners were Garratt conversions. So we have both commercial and
                          kitbashed sources of ideas.

                          But consider another possibility: CRM has an ALCo proposal diagram, picked up
                          somewhere by Bob Richardson many years ago, for an RGS 2-8-8-2 single expansion
                          Mallet. This design is clearly based on using a pair of updated K-27 chassis
                          under a 6' diameter boiler, with a K-36 tender. Never would have made it over
                          the RGS's 30' span trestles, but this a lot better documented psudo-prototype
                          than any Garratt.

                          John Stutz
                        • JOHN SPRATLEY
                          Hi Guys, just to Add a bit more to the Great Garrett Debate ,  More Garretts did Run North of Panama, though a considerable distance East ! In the UK, both
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 18, 2013
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                            Hi Guys, just to Add a bit more to the "Great Garrett Debate",  More Garretts did Run North of Panama, though a considerable distance East ! In the UK, both the LMS, and the LNER Had Garretts, which survived into the post Nationalisation Era, and a UK retailer has commissioned a limmited run of the LMS 2-6-0+0-6-2, in 00 scale, from Bachmann, (I think), due out soon. The Retailer is Hattons of Liverpool. If you want one, order now.
                              Re 3ft Mallets. The ex Sumpter Valley/Uintah locos, that wound upin Gautimala, are well known,
                            (and rumored to still exist ?)
                            But in Brazil, the FC Donna Christina, had a nice pair of Alco 2-6-6-2s, on Meter Gauge. They also had some Texas 2-10-4s(US built), and impressive 2-10-2s(Europian built, but very american looking.). I have a video of the Railroad, shot about 30 years ago, which has a Skoda Built 2-10-2
                            hauling a 2,000 ton coal train up a 1/100(1%) grade, starting at the bottom, running at 60MPH.
                            Vrery Impressive! OH, btw, all these locos were Inside Frame!. Kinda makes a K36 look a little
                            "puny". Te He He!
                            Kind Regards John.therailtoad!


                            > Garratts ran in the UK, Spain, the Netherlands and in Russia
                            > without mentioning North Africa, all north of Panama.
                            Anyway, South
                            Africa is south of Panama and the K class (K1 and K2)were built for Tasmania
                            (also south of Panama.)

                            Mike the rivet counter

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • d_rg_br
                            The locos for the FC Donna Christina were meter gauge and the 2-6-6-2´s are quite small(but long) by K-36/K-37 standards with their standard gauge boilers.
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 18, 2013
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                              The locos for the FC Donna Christina were meter gauge and the 2-6-6-2´s are quite small(but long) by K-36/K-37 standards
                              with their standard gauge boilers. The 2-10-2´s were indeed
                              impressive but I have no idea if one or more have been preserved.
                              One of the 2-6-6-2´s is in Rio Negrinho in the state of Santa Catarina
                              and has/was(?) being restored for more than 10 years, heard it
                              passed boiler tests and was capable of movement.

                              Rode behind the 2-10-2 Skoda in 1993 with Chris Skow on a Trains Unlimited tour. Due to leaking flues a 1945 2-8-2 Mikado(Alco?) similar to a K-27 took over the train and we had a very enjoyable
                              day.

                              MCG de Oliveira

                              --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, JOHN SPRATLEY <john.therailtoad@...> wrote:

                              > But in Brazil, the FC Donna Christina, had a nice pair of Alco 2-6-6-2s, on Meter Gauge. They also had some Texas 2-10-4s(US built), and impressive 2-10-2s(Europian built, but very american looking.). I have a video of the Railroad, shot about 30 years ago, which has a Skoda Built 2-10-2
                            • John Stutz
                              See for Garratt models. The HOn3 2-6-0+0-6-2 that Doug mentioned is the Victoria Government Railways 30
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 20, 2013
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                                See <http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/model.html> for Garratt models.

                                The HOn3 2-6-0+0-6-2 that Doug mentioned is the Victoria Government Railways'
                                30" gauge prototype, one of which is preserved on the Puffing Billy Line. The
                                HO scale brass models were made in several runs for Model Dockyard in Australia
                                and Pacific Fast Mail in the U.S. At a very rough guess, these were imported
                                circa 1970-80. the prototype is a very chunky little locomotive, rather
                                unusually so for a Garratt, when 2-6-2+2-6-2's were much more common. Both HO
                                and OO scale versions are currently available from Shapeways, but suffer from
                                the designer attempting to do every detail in a single build up. For instance,
                                the cab interior is detailed but not removable and will be exceedingly difficult
                                to paint. I have the HO one, done in 'frosted detail', which gave a slightly
                                rough surface. It is an excellent rendition of the VR engine, but I contemplate
                                cutting off a lot of details to get a more generic version. This model will
                                look a lot better in 'frosted ultra detail', but at about a 50% price increase.
                                It is a little small for 3' gauge, and I think the OO version would be better
                                for an HOn3 model, overall size wise, but this entails a 50% increase in volume
                                and similar increase in price. See
                                <http://www.shapeways.com/shops/shapeways.com/shops/Jeevi>.

                                Like Doug I have the DJH Models South African Railways GCA 2-6-2+2-6-2 kit, and
                                like Doug's it is half built awaiting conversion from HO to HOn3. Unfortunately
                                this is a distinctively German prototype, also well out of the usual for
                                Garratts, and it really needs an entirely new mechanism. However this was
                                purchased circa 1985, and I am not familiar with current DJH mechanisms. DJH
                                also offers the SAR GMA/M 4-8-2+2-8-4+tender in HO and HOm, the New South Wales
                                AD-60 4-8-4+4-8-4 in HO, and the LMS 2-6-0+0-6-2 in OO. The latter two are
                                very large engines for HO. All these are quite distinctive prototypes The kits
                                run about $500-$800, with the RTR versions pushing $3000. See
                                <http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/rest-of-world-kits/>.

                                For almost legible general arrangement drawings of many (not all) of Beyer
                                Peacock's Garratt locomotives see
                                <http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php>, with collection
                                name 'Beyer, Peacock & Co. Ltd' and object summary 'Garratt drawing **', where
                                ** is something specific to narrow your search. 'Garratt drawing' alone gets
                                about 500 hits, identified only by registration number, so more specific
                                searches will be easier to access. For instance, 'Garratt drawing Dorada' gets
                                the Colombian 3' gauge 4-6-2+2-6-4, while 'Garratt drawing 4-6-2' get 31 hits.
                                Countries and distinctive terms from railroad names or locomotive classes are
                                useful specifiers. I suspect that legible versions of these drawings are
                                available for a price, but have not followed up on this, since these give a good
                                idea of what BP was building.

                                Incidentally: the '2-10-2s(Europian built, but very american looking.)' that
                                John mentions seeing on the FC Donna Christina, were built to Baldwin drawings
                                supplied to Argentina with mid-1920s orders. Such duplication was very common
                                during the Steam Era. There was nothing like modern intellectual property
                                rights for such matters. The complete drawings supplied with one order could,
                                and often were, sent out for general tender when duplicate engines were needed.

                                John Stutz
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