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Re: Not so very funny!

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  • Mike Conder
    ... Thanks Rick. Since I don t have the book, were there iron mines in Colorado, or was that also moving coal? Mike
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 31, 2000
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      Rick Steele wrote:

      > ... The Colorado & Wyoming Railroad was the prime mover for CF&I of a lot of
      > the ore that they used. ...The Colorado part was in Southern Colorado....

      Thanks Rick. Since I don't have the book, were there iron mines in Colorado, or
      was that also moving coal?

      Mike
    • Martin J. Rosenfeld
      Thanks for the reminder about silver losing value in the 1890 s. Can you suggest any other hard rock commodity besides gold that would have been mined in
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Thanks for the reminder about silver losing value in the 1890's. Can you
        suggest any other hard rock commodity besides gold that would have been
        mined in California between 1890 and 1900?

        >
        > From: Szczowicz@...
        >
        > In a message dated 01/31/2000 11:26:07 AM GMT Standard Time,
        > ricksteele-cheyenne@... writes:
        >
        > > But that doesn't become important until after WWII.
        > Rick,
        > That's absolutely true but if you look at what made money for the railroads
        > over a period of time you'll find that nothing really stays constant.
      • Martin J. Rosenfeld
        Thanks for the further info. I am not yet into quarries. Where did lead and mercury come from? I know that mercury was (until recently) used in making plate
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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          Thanks for the further info. I am not yet into quarries. Where did lead
          and mercury come from? I know that mercury was (until recently) used in
          making plate glass (the molten glass was floated on mercury as a level
          surface).

          >
          > Granite and Limestone were a big commodity around that time, but I hadn't
          > heard of any narrow gauge roads that hauled either of them. What could be
          > interesting would be to model the Mountain Quarries railroad which ran from
          > Cool, California to Auburn, California.
        • Andrew Brandon
          Martin; Granite and Limestone were a big commodity around that time, but I hadn t heard of any narrow gauge roads that hauled either of them. What could be
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Martin;

            Granite and Limestone were a big commodity around that time, but I hadn't
            heard of any narrow gauge roads that hauled either of them. What could be
            interesting would be to model the Mountain Quarries railroad which ran from
            Cool, California to Auburn, California. It was a standard gauge lime hauling
            road which connected with the SP in Auburn. However there isn't much info on
            it in books just a little here and there.. If you are interested I can
            gather what info I do have and send it to you...

            -Andrew
          • darney@ibm.net
            There are/were some dedicated lead mines, but most ore in Colorado contained a fair % of lead requiring smelting and this was the source of most lead. Ore
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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              There are/were some dedicated lead mines, but most ore in Colorado contained a
              fair % of lead requiring smelting and this was the source of most lead. Ore on
              the Comstock in Nevada and most of California had little or no lead and did nor
              require smelting and were reduced in stamp mills. Please note that the varations
              were so great that only general statements can be made. Many Nevada ores required
              smelting and it is a very complex subject.
              Dale Darney
              V&T shops
              **************
              "Martin J. Rosenfeld" wrote:

              > From: "Martin J. Rosenfeld" <mjrosenfeld@...>
              >
              > Thanks for the further info. I am not yet into quarries. Where did lead
              > and mercury come from? I know that mercury was (until recently) used in
              > making plate glass (the molten glass was floated on mercury as a level
              > surface).
              >
              > >
              > > Granite and Limestone were a big commodity around that time, but I hadn't
              > > heard of any narrow gauge roads that hauled either of them. What could be
              > > interesting would be to model the Mountain Quarries railroad which ran from
              > > Cool, California to Auburn, California.
              >
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            • Rick Steele
              ... Colorado, or ... Mike, I don t have the book either but the railroad is mentioned in La Massena s book Clorado s Mountain Railroads. When I hired out for
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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                > Thanks Rick. Since I don't have the book, were there iron mines in
                Colorado, or
                > was that also moving coal?

                Mike,

                I don't have the book either but the railroad is mentioned in La Massena's
                book Clorado's Mountain Railroads. When I hired out for the UP a score of
                years ago, we used to run a train from Utah which was symboled as the MNQA.
                It was 80 of those short ore gons and was 35 mph, the slowest train on the
                district. It ran daily. I remember reading about the Pocatello transfer,
                also where the U&N used DSP&P cars and ran them from Denver to Pocatello via
                the UP main line. (The truck changing there would have been a blast). I
                wonder if some came from north, like.. Montana?

                As for a presence of Iron Ore in Colorado goes, the book "Mineral Resources
                of Colorado Vol 1 lists Iron as coming from Boulder, Eagle, Gunnison, Lake,
                Park, San Juan, San Miguel and Summit Counties in the form of Magnetite,
                with or without Titanium.

                Since nobody asked, Coors used only one to two boxcar loads of Bottle Caps a
                year. (But think how many bottle caps to a boxcar)

                Rick
              • Mike Conder
                ... If it hasn t been answered yet, lead was common in many Colorado mines: some as the main source of income (as in Leadville), some as a minor source or
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  "Martin J. Rosenfeld" wrote:

                  > Thanks for the further info. I am not yet into quarries. Where did lead
                  > and mercury come from?

                  If it hasn't been answered yet, lead was common in many Colorado mines: some as
                  the main source of income (as in Leadville), some as a minor source or actually
                  as an impurity.

                  Mercury, on the other hand, was used to collect gold and silver from crushed or
                  in the mills. It was recycled as much as possible. It comes from an ore mineral
                  called cinnabar, but I don't think there were any cinnabar mines in Colorado.

                  Mike Conder
                • Rick C Shoup
                  Lots of Mercury mines in the hills around San Francisco. In fact the tainted water from the closed mines still drains into the bay. So that would be another
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 2, 2000
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                    Lots of Mercury mines in the hills around San Francisco. In fact the
                    tainted water from the closed mines still drains into the bay.
                    So that would be another incoming load.
                    Question how was liquid mercury packaged and shipped?
                    Regards, Rick Shoup


                    On Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:53:51 -0700 Mike Conder <vulture@...>
                    writes:
                    > From: Mike Conder <vulture@...>
                    >
                    > "Martin J. Rosenfeld" wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thanks for the further info. I am not yet into quarries. Where did
                    > lead
                    > > and mercury come from?
                    >
                    > If it hasn't been answered yet, lead was common in many Colorado
                    > mines: some as
                    > the main source of income (as in Leadville), some as a minor source
                    > or actually
                    > as an impurity.
                    >
                    > Mercury, on the other hand, was used to collect gold and silver from
                    > crushed or
                    > in the mills. It was recycled as much as possible. It comes from
                    > an ore mineral
                    > called cinnabar, but I don't think there were any cinnabar mines in
                    > Colorado.
                    >
                    > Mike Conder
                    >
                    >
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                  • John Stutz
                    ... Not lots. The principal North American cinnibar mines were in the New Almedan district, on the west slope of the Coast range, just SW of San Jose. These
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 2, 2000
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                      > From: Rick C Shoup <rshoup@...>
                      >
                      > Lots of Mercury mines in the hills around San Francisco. In fact the
                      > tainted water from the closed mines still drains into the bay.
                      > So that would be another incoming load.
                      > Question how was liquid mercury packaged and shipped?
                      > Regards, Rick Shoup
                      >

                      Not lots.

                      The principal North American cinnibar mines were in the New Almedan district,
                      on the west slope of the Coast range, just SW of San Jose. These were opened
                      under the Spanish government, preceeding the gold rush by 20+ years. The
                      deposits were previously used by Indians for red pigment. Maximum activity
                      was during the 1860-80 period, with little activity after WW I, and that
                      mostly open pit recovery of low grade ores. The underground mining of high
                      grade ores carried the stopes down about 3000', say 2000' below sea level.
                      Both SP and South Pacific Coast had branches to the edge of the district, but
                      neither actually went up the canyon to serve the mines. The area is now a
                      county park, and there is some concern about contamination of the streams
                      draining the district, though most area residents never heard of the mines.

                      There were one or two other cinnibar mines around the bay, and a another more
                      recent operation west of the Gysers hydrothermal district about 50 miles north
                      of San Francisco. The Gysers refinery, with rotary kiln for heating the ore
                      and 20' high cast iron condensers for recovering the mercury was still
                      standing about 15 years ago.

                      Mercury was shipped in cast iron flasks. My impression is that these were
                      about 4-6" diameter by 12-16" long, but I havn't seen one in years. Shipment
                      would have been as express. At a very very rough guess, I would say a
                      50-stamp mill would uase about one flask a month in full operation. So there
                      really isn't much in the way of freight potential here.

                      John Stutz
                    • Rick C Shoup
                      I was at the San Jose Hilton in 1990 attending the PCR 50th convention. In the tidewater drainage ditch behind the hotel was a beached small whale that had
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 2, 2000
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                        I was at the San Jose Hilton in 1990 attending the PCR 50th convention.
                        In the tidewater drainage ditch behind the hotel was a beached small
                        whale that had made its way up the ditch in high tide and got stuck. So
                        the natives were trying to keep it alive until the tide came back in and
                        they could pull it back out to sea. I asked why not dam the creek below
                        her tail to give her enough water to submerge into. "Cannot" was the
                        answer because the creek was actully drainage from mercury mines "up in
                        the hills.

                        They did get her out and she swam away amid great cheering.

                        That is all I know about mercury mines in the san fran area.

                        Thanks for the info as to how the mercury was packaged. Was the amount
                        about a quart do you think?
                        Regards, Rick Shoup


                        On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:59:45 -0800 (PST) John Stutz
                        <stutz@...> writes:
                        > From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                        >
                        >
                        > > From: Rick C Shoup <rshoup@...>
                        > >
                        > > Lots of Mercury mines in the hills around San Francisco. In fact
                        > the
                        > > tainted water from the closed mines still drains into the bay.
                        > > So that would be another incoming load.
                        > > Question how was liquid mercury packaged and shipped?
                        > > Regards, Rick Shoup
                        > >
                        >
                        > Not lots.
                        >
                        > The principal North American cinnibar mines were in the New Almedan
                        > district,
                        > on the west slope of the Coast range, just SW of San Jose. These
                        > were opened
                        > under the Spanish government, preceeding the gold rush by 20+ years.
                        > The
                        > deposits were previously used by Indians for red pigment. Maximum
                        > activity
                        > was during the 1860-80 period, with little activity after WW I, and
                        > that
                        > mostly open pit recovery of low grade ores. The underground mining
                        > of high
                        > grade ores carried the stopes down about 3000', say 2000' below sea
                        > level.
                        > Both SP and South Pacific Coast had branches to the edge of the
                        > district, but
                        > neither actually went up the canyon to serve the mines. The area is
                        > now a
                        > county park, and there is some concern about contamination of the
                        > streams
                        > draining the district, though most area residents never heard of the
                        > mines.
                        >
                        > There were one or two other cinnibar mines around the bay, and a
                        > another more
                        > recent operation west of the Gysers hydrothermal district about 50
                        > miles north
                        > of San Francisco. The Gysers refinery, with rotary kiln for heating
                        > the ore
                        > and 20' high cast iron condensers for recovering the mercury was
                        > still
                        > standing about 15 years ago.
                        >
                        > Mercury was shipped in cast iron flasks. My impression is that
                        > these were
                        > about 4-6" diameter by 12-16" long, but I havn't seen one in years.
                        > Shipment
                        > would have been as express. At a very very rough guess, I would say
                        > a
                        > 50-stamp mill would uase about one flask a month in full operation.
                        > So there
                        > really isn't much in the way of freight potential here.
                        >
                        > John Stutz
                        >
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                      • Martin J. Rosenfeld
                        My grandfather was somewhat of an amateur chemist. I remember he had an earthernware flask of mercury in our basement. It was, as I recall, about a quart, and
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 3, 2000
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                          My grandfather was somewhat of an amateur chemist. I remember he had an
                          earthernware flask of mercury in our basement. It was, as I recall,
                          about a quart, and it was heavy! We used to rub it onto dimes to make
                          them shiny!
                          >
                          > From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                          >
                          > > From: Rick C Shoup <rshoup@...>
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the info as to how the mercury was packaged. Was the amount
                          > > about a quart do you think?
                        • John Stutz
                          ... Roughly a quart. Very roughly. I ve read of the flasks, and may have seen one in a mining museum somewhere, but most of my information was collected for a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 3, 2000
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                            > From: Rick C Shoup <rshoup@...>
                            >
                            > Thanks for the info as to how the mercury was packaged. Was the amount
                            > about a quart do you think?

                            Roughly a quart. Very roughly. I've read of the flasks, and may have seen one
                            in a mining museum somewhere, but most of my information was collected for a
                            high school history class paper written 35 years ago.

                            John Stutz
                          • HOn3MRR@aol.com
                            In a message dated 2/2/00 10:45:28 AM Central Standard Time, rshoup@juno.com writes: Mike Conder made this comment about Mercury mining:
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 3, 2000
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                              In a message dated 2/2/00 10:45:28 AM Central Standard Time, rshoup@...
                              writes:

                              Mike Conder made this comment about Mercury mining:

                              << Mercury, on the other hand, was used to collect gold and silver from
                              > crushed or
                              > in the mills. It was recycled as much as possible. It comes from
                              > an ore mineral
                              > called cinnabar, but I don't think there were any cinnabar mines in
                              > Colorado.
                              > >>

                              I read a book about the Big Bend country in West Texas some time back that
                              had a considerable amount of information about the mining of Cinnibar and the
                              collecting and transporting the Mecury products. I'll have to see if I can
                              find the information if anyone is interested.

                              Bill Martin
                              Presque Isle Northern RR
                            • Dennis McCarthy
                              A standard flask of Mercury is 76 pounds. Mercury weighs 849 lbs./cu. ft or 113.49 lbs. per gallon, so a flask would be close to 3 quarts. (85.7 fl. oz.)
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 3, 2000
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                                A standard flask of Mercury is 76 pounds. Mercury weighs 849 lbs./cu. ft or
                                113.49 lbs. per gallon, so a flask would be close to 3 quarts. (85.7 fl.
                                oz.)

                                Dennis
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