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Any Update on the Lobato Trestle

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  • Don Bergman
    Just recieved the summer newsletter from the Friends of the C&TSRR. Disturbing picture on the front of the burned out bridge with damage much more extensive
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1, 2010
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      Just recieved the summer newsletter from the Friends of the C&TSRR.
      Disturbing picture on the front of the burned out bridge with damage much
      more extensive than I understood. They did not say anything about the
      damage or repair. Anybody have more current information. Any rebuilding
      taking place?

      Looks like they are trying to make the best of the situation by running
      Chama to the trestle and from Cumbres to Osier.

      Don Bergman
      Holland, MI
    • rgs20@icehouse.net
      There are regular postings on the Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum on the C&TS. The general status is the management is waiting for the engineering
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2010
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        There are regular postings on the Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum
        on the C&TS. The general status is the management is waiting for the
        engineering firm's report on repair or replacement of the bridge.
        Probably nothing can happen until the operating people, management and the
        joint Colorado - NM railroad commission can meet and go over the report.

        I am guessing that nothing will happen at the bridge before next spring
        unless someone comes up with the proverbial oil well and can write some
        big checks. I've heard 'guesstimates' from two to five million dollars.
        No quick fixes, unfortunately. And no inexpensive ones, either.

        Charlie Mutschler
        -30-
      • Mike Conder
        Thought there was a recent comment (past week or two) that the trestle was a candidate for repair?  Mike Conder ________________________________ From:
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1, 2010
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          Thought there was a recent comment (past week or two) that the trestle was a
          candidate for repair?
           Mike Conder




          ________________________________
          From: "rgs20@..." <rgs20@...>
          To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 9:47:08 AM
          Subject: Re: [HOn3] Any Update on the Lobato Trestle

           
          There are regular postings on the Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum
          on the C&TS. The general status is the management is waiting for the
          engineering firm's report on repair or replacement of the bridge.
          Probably nothing can happen until the operating people, management and the
          joint Colorado - NM railroad commission can meet and go over the report.

          I am guessing that nothing will happen at the bridge before next spring
          unless someone comes up with the proverbial oil well and can write some
          big checks. I've heard 'guesstimates' from two to five million dollars.
          No quick fixes, unfortunately. And no inexpensive ones, either.

          Charlie Mutschler
          -30-




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mark
          This from the friends site via the Dead Goats Saloon. About $1.5m to find. Mark HDR Engineering of Omaha have come back with a preliminary report to the C&TS
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 1, 2010
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            This from the friends site via the Dead Goats Saloon. About $1.5m to find.

            Mark


            HDR Engineering of Omaha have come back with a preliminary report to the C&TS Railroad Commission regarding repair of Lobato Trestle. The trestle, which burned on June 23, 2010, will cost approximately $2 million to repair. This figure includes the cost of the steel work that is required, replacement of bridge timbers, track work, labor and other associated costs tied to the actual repair of the structure. The structure was insured for $360,000 and has a $50,000 deductible. To date the State of Colorado has pledged $120,000 in funds towards repairs. In addition, RGRPC has made a $10,000 gift to the Commission for trestle repairs and the Friends have pledged $20,000 from its Another Century of Narrow Gauge Steam II campaign. The Friends Lobato Trestle Fund has approximately $25,000 in donations to-date. For those who wish to contribute you may send donations to; Friends of the C&TS Railroad, Lobato Trestle Fund, 6005 Osuna Road, NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109. Checks need to be made payable to; Friends of the C&TS.
          • Don Bergman
            Thanks for the info on Lobato Trestle. Looks like they only have about $485,000. little over 1/4 needed. This is going to be a while. Are they going
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 2, 2010
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              Thanks for the info on Lobato Trestle. Looks like they only have about
              $485,000. little over 1/4 needed. This is going to be a while. Are
              they going after grants? Get someone to pledge $500,000 if a matching
              $500,000 is donated in a certain time. $500,000 is chunp change to many
              foundations.

              Don Bergman
            • Jim Vail
              The gentleman you talked to at the Friends of the C&TS booth was most likely Tim Tennant who is the General Manager of the C&TS. There is an August update on
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 7, 2010
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                The gentleman you talked to at the Friends of the C&TS booth was most
                likely Tim Tennant who is the General Manager of the C&TS. There is an
                August update on the trestle cost estimate posted by him on the Friends
                web site.

                Jim Vail

                johndrgw wrote:
                >
                >
                > I talked briefly with a gentleman who is a member of Friends of the
                > CTSR at the NNGConvention this evening and he said that $2 million is
                > needed to replace the wood (all the wood, he said) and do some steel
                > work. Now I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this estimate. Maybe
                > someone knows more.
                >
                > John
                >
              • rgs20@icehouse.net
                The preliminary report and the photos of the preliminary engineering study show some damage to the metal structure of the bridge. This looks as if it is not
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 7, 2010
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                  The preliminary report and the photos of the preliminary engineering study
                  show some damage to the metal structure of the bridge. This looks as if
                  it is not going to be a quick, simple matter of replacing the ties. Some
                  girders have deformed and sagged, there has been some other damage as
                  well. Several persons have suggested having engineering evaluations of
                  the piers and footings as well as the east and west abutments. Obviously
                  this will require more engineering study, and it will not be either fast
                  or inexpensive.

                  I am not an engineer, so my observations are nothing but those of an
                  interested layman.

                  Charlie Mutschler
                  -30-
                • Hart Corbett
                  Jim and all: There is structural damage to the iron of the bridge. Photos are posted as an Acrobat pdf file at (the captions are small and hard to read so you
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 8, 2010
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                    Jim and all:

                    There is structural damage to the iron of the bridge.

                    Photos are posted as an Acrobat pdf file at (the captions are small and hard to read so you may have to zoom in a bit):

                    http://www.chamasteam.com/chamasteam/LOBATO-FIRE/7-2-10ReportPhotos.pdf

                    If this direct link doesn't work, I MIGHT be able to work out an indirect route to the file.

                    With best regards, Hart
                    _____________________________________________
                    <<< Re: Any Update on the Lobato Trestle
                    Posted by: "Jim Vail" akacoot@... akacoot
                    Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 7:30 am ((PDT))

                    The gentleman you talked to at the Friends of the C&TS booth was most
                    likely Tim Tennant who is the General Manager of the C&TS. There is an
                    August update on the trestle cost estimate posted by him on the Friends
                    web site.

                    Jim Vail

                    johndrgw wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I talked briefly with a gentleman who is a member of Friends of the
                    > CTSR at the NNGConvention this evening and he said that $2 million is
                    > needed to replace the wood (all the wood, he said) and do some steel
                    > work. Now I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this estimate. Maybe
                    > someone knows more.
                    >
                    > John >>>
                  • tbrug@aol.com
                    As all of you already know, replacing railroad bridges is one of the single most expensive activities a railroad can undertake. Expensive bridge maintenance
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 8, 2010
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                      As all of you already know, replacing railroad bridges is one of the
                      single most expensive activities a railroad can undertake. Expensive
                      bridge maintenance has probably killed off more short line and
                      class-one RR branch lines than any other cause.

                      C&TS is probably going to need help paying for this. If the projection
                      for a "minor" repair is $2 million, then a new bridge is probably going
                      to cost $20 million or more.

                      Time to look for outside help. How about the military? Didn't they
                      rebuild the Georgetown loop a decade or so ago?

                      Tom Brugman, Falls Church, VA
                    • Studedudeus
                      No! It is a common misconception that the SeaBees built the Georgetown loop. Not true. They started the project and built the first mile or two of track.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 8, 2010
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                        No! It is a common misconception that the SeaBees built the Georgetown loop. Not true. They started the project and built the first mile or two of track. But the majority of the work laying track was done by Lindsay Ashby and his group from the Georgetown Loop Inc. They were the initial operator of the railroad and owned all that rolling stock.

                        The high bridge was built using a grant from the Boetcher (sp?) Foundation, and the rest of the track (from the high bridge to the bottom) was done by a local rail contractor.

                        You're right that outside help will be needed to repair or replace Lobato. Especially with regard to funding. But there are good grant writers in the "Friends" and the commission, who I would expect to get involved.

                        --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, tbrug@... wrote:
                        >
                        > As all of you already know, replacing railroad bridges is one of the
                        > single most expensive activities a railroad can undertake. Expensive
                        > bridge maintenance has probably killed off more short line and
                        > class-one RR branch lines than any other cause.
                        >
                        > C&TS is probably going to need help paying for this. If the projection
                        > for a "minor" repair is $2 million, then a new bridge is probably going
                        > to cost $20 million or more.
                        >
                        > Time to look for outside help. How about the military? Didn't they
                        > rebuild the Georgetown loop a decade or so ago?
                        >
                        > Tom Brugman, Falls Church, VA
                        >
                      • Mike Conder
                        Not from what I saw in the PDF file. Some tricky repairs, mostly on secondary support pieces but the main stringers and columns looked OK. Main concern might
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 8, 2010
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                          Not from what I saw in the PDF file. Some tricky repairs, mostly on secondary support pieces but the main stringers and columns looked OK.

                          Main concern might be the abutment lifting. That could be a problem.

                          Mike Conder
                          Sent from my iPod

                          On Sep 8, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Frederick Voelcker <fred.voelcker@...> wrote:

                          Looks like it's time to build a new bridge?

                          Phread

                          On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Hart Corbett <hwcorbett@...> wrote:



                          Jim and all:

                          There is structural damage to the iron of the bridge.

                          Photos are posted as an Acrobat pdf file at (the captions are small and
                          hard to read so you may have to zoom in a bit):

                          http://www.chamasteam.com/chamasteam/LOBATO-FIRE/7-2-10ReportPhotos.pdf

                          If this direct link doesn't work, I MIGHT be able to work out an indirect
                          route to the file.

                          With best regards, Hart
                          _____________________________________________
                          <<< Re: Any Update on the Lobato Trestle
                          Posted by: "Jim Vail" akacoot@... <akacoot%40comcast.net> akacoot
                          Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 7:30 am ((PDT))

                          The gentleman you talked to at the Friends of the C&TS booth was most
                          likely Tim Tennant who is the General Manager of the C&TS. There is an
                          August update on the trestle cost estimate posted by him on the Friends
                          web site.

                          Jim Vail

                          johndrgw wrote:


                          I talked briefly with a gentleman who is a member of Friends of the
                          CTSR at the NNGConvention this evening and he said that $2 million is
                          needed to replace the wood (all the wood, he said) and do some steel
                          work. Now I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this estimate. Maybe
                          someone knows more.

                          John >>>





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        • Jim Spencer
                          Though I am not a structural engineer, the photos show that the temperatures affecting the steel or iron had surpassed its yield strength. The strength of the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 9, 2010
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                            Though I am not a structural engineer, the photos show that the
                            temperatures affecting the steel or iron had surpassed its yield
                            strength. The strength of the metal has therefore forever been
                            compromised.

                            Surpassing the yield strength is evidenced by the bucking and sagging
                            (especially) and involves not only the cross bracing but the main
                            girders (remember the photo of the lifted girder at the abutment which
                            implies that the same girder had sagged in the middle of the span).
                            That means probably the entire horizontal girder structure has to be
                            replaced (everything but the towers).
                            Jim
                            James G. Spencer, Architect, AIA
                            trainmanjs@...
                          • Studedudeus
                            Right you are, Jim. In addition to that, the initial evaluation document mentions that the load testing shows that the existiing structure didn t actually
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 9, 2010
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                              Right you are, Jim. In addition to that, the initial evaluation document mentions that the load testing shows that the existiing structure didn't actually meet load requirements for the current locomotives and cars, to begin with. Considering that it was designed at a time when smaller locos and cars were used, this shouldn't be a huge surprise.

                              The photos that are available show quite a few cracks at critical joints, which may have even existed before the fire, which will have to be addressed before it can be put back into service.

                              --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Though I am not a structural engineer, the photos show that the
                              > temperatures affecting the steel or iron had surpassed its yield
                              > strength. The strength of the metal has therefore forever been
                              > compromised.
                              >
                              > Surpassing the yield strength is evidenced by the bucking and sagging
                              > (especially) and involves not only the cross bracing but the main
                              > girders (remember the photo of the lifted girder at the abutment which
                              > implies that the same girder had sagged in the middle of the span).
                              > That means probably the entire horizontal girder structure has to be
                              > replaced (everything but the towers).
                              > Jim
                              > James G. Spencer, Architect, AIA
                              > trainmanjs@...
                              >
                            • Mike Conder
                              Yeah that s what I was thinking. The top of the main girder got overheated, then quenched, warping it over the length of the main girder. It also matches he
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 9, 2010
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                                Yeah that's what I was thinking. The top of the main girder got overheated, then quenched, warping it over the length of the main girder. It also matches he cost estimate better if that much steel needs replacing.

                                Mike Conder
                                Sent from my iPod

                                On Sep 9, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:

                                Surpassing the yield strength is evidenced by the bucking and sagging
                                (especially) and involves not only the cross bracing but the main
                                girders (remember the photo of the lifted girder at the abutment which
                                implies that the same girder had sagged in the middle of the span).
                                That means probably the entire horizontal girder structure has to be
                                replaced (everything but the towers).
                              • bob_brendle
                                I m an architect and not a structural engineer and my commenst are from just looking at the photos. Also a docent and member of the Friends, so somewhat
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 11, 2010
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                                  I'm an architect and not a structural engineer and my commenst are from just looking at the photos. Also a docent and member of the Friends, so somewhat familiar with Lobato trestle. Given that, the damage to steel looks significant, so a couple million $ may not be off that much. OUCH!! Also, if you've ever done remodeling on your home or business, once you get into this stuff, one thing leads to another and there is usually more work than originally anticipated as demo reveals unseen problems, which usually leads to more $$.

                                  --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Not from what I saw in the PDF file. Some tricky repairs, mostly on secondary support pieces but the main stringers and columns looked
                                • Popeye
                                  ... I was there yesterday, and ran from Antonito to Cumbres Pass, and took the bus back. I wasn t offered any options out of Chama (as opposed to bussing over
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 13, 2010
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                                    --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bergman" <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Just recieved the summer newsletter from the Friends of the C&TSRR.
                                    > Disturbing picture on the front of the burned out bridge with damage much
                                    > more extensive than I understood. They did not say anything about the
                                    > damage or repair. Anybody have more current information. Any rebuilding
                                    > taking place?
                                    >
                                    > Looks like they are trying to make the best of the situation by running
                                    > Chama to the trestle and from Cumbres to Osier.
                                    >
                                    > Don Bergman
                                    > Holland, MI
                                    >


                                    I was there yesterday, and ran from Antonito to Cumbres Pass, and took the bus back. I wasn't offered any options out of Chama (as opposed to bussing over to Cumbres Pass and riding the train back), but didn't ask. When booking, no one mentioned the trestle problem. The train crew said that the engineers drawing and specs had been approved, but that Colorado had kicked in, and New Mexico, although having promised, has not as yet ponied up. That was just table talk at lunch, and nothing I can particularly cite. It was still a great ride.
                                  • Bruce Petrarca Mr. DCC
                                    Five worst words in a homeowner s vocabulary: While we are at it . . . Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC Visit Mr. DCC s University at http://www.MrDCCU.com
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 16, 2010
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                                      Five worst words in a homeowner's vocabulary:

                                      "While we are at it . . ."

                                      Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC

                                      Visit Mr. DCC's University at http://www.MrDCCU.com

                                      On 9/11/2010 8:11 AM, bob_brendle wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I'm an architect and not a structural engineer and my commenst are from just looking at the photos. Also a docent and member of the Friends, so somewhat familiar with Lobato trestle. Given that, the damage to steel looks significant, so a couple million $ may not be off that much. OUCH!! Also, if you've ever done remodeling on your home or business, once you get into this stuff, one thing leads to another and there is usually more work than originally anticipated as demo reveals unseen problems, which usually leads to more $$.
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